Expensive puppy prices and newbies...

[Theresa]

Since this has been a popular topic lately, I thought I would ask....

Show breeders always lament of selling show quality pups that were wasted on the couch, ie never shown despite promises to do so. I assume this must be true with hunting dogs as well.

I've settled on a V - it will be a few years, but I like to plan ahead

My experience in dogs is mainly in show dogs and pets. In my case, with little experience in training (much less hunting!) I would hate to buy an expensive pup only to screw it up. I am not saying a less expensive pup won't get screwed up, and I am not saying you can't strike gold with an inexpensive pup, but folks say 'you get what you pay for'.

In that light, do breeders expect more from expensive pups? Or folks that buy expensive pups? Do the higher priced pups come with greater expectation that those who buy them will go on to reap accolades for their kennel/breeder?

[Greg Jennings]

My advice is twofold:

1. Decide what you can realistically do with your dog. Can you support showing to the CH? Can you support field training and testing? Can you only support the dog being a pet? Etc.

Then:

2. Clearly and crisply communicate with a breeder the that you can 100% trust to provide you with a genetically healthy dog the result of item 1. If the breeder doesn't want to sell, no harm, no foul.

An observation: I do not think you will find many Vizsla breeders that meet item 2 that will sell a pup for $300.

Regards, Greg J.

[Yawallac]

I've settled on a V

Theresa, Theresa, Theresa....... You were so close to joining us on the darkside!

[Hotpepper]

You are correct in what you have put down on paper Theresa.

If people go looking for an expensive puppy, what are they looking for that "dog" to do as it grows up. If it is show or field or a pet they will have an expectation of why that but that expensive pup.

I feel I will start a post on what everyone feels make the price of the puppy go up. Will do that tomorrow.

Are you chasing a linebred pup? How come? Are you chasing a pup you can win with, both show and field? How did you arrive at that conclusion on that litter? What drew you to it?

Let's see what we get.

Pepper

[Don]

I guess I should stay out of this. I don't think the pup was ever born that was worth more than a couple hundred bucks at 7 wks. If Riggins white Knight had been bought by Billy Bob for a huntin' dawg at 7wks, would he have still been a great dog? How about Guard Rail, Paladins Royal Flush, Miller's White Cloud? I think the cost of puppies is all the market will bear!
A guy was here a while back that rasies setter's, he's no one in the setter world. Tell's me he's gonna raise the price of his pup's to $750 because Robertson's are! Floating on the back of achiever's!

[CherrystoneWeims]

Whoa hold on a minute, Don. It depends upon the breed. You are talking Pointers. They are a dime a dozen. Depending upon the breed you may have to go clear across the country or another country for that matter to find the correct stud dog for your bitch. Then you have the cost of semen shipment, implantation of semen, progesterone levels, etc. It get VERY expensive.

I just paid $1000 for frozen semen, another $1000 for surgical implantation of said semen, plus the progesterone levels, plus travel and overnight at a hotel to get to the repro vet. In Weims we can't just breed to what is in our backyard. Plus what I have spent on the bitch on field testing/trialing to prove that she isn't just a typical Weim that cost $500!

That's why a good Weim will cost money.

[Don]

What you just said sugest's to me that all the good Weim's are either dead or or live a continent away from you. They are fairly rare around here also but they are here! Your desire seem's to produce greatness as opposed to well bred dogs. I'm sure you'll have a market for them. I would also guess that due to the relative lack of popularity of the breed, people will be required to pay a premium for one even if it's from someone that has not gone to the pains you have. I think what your doing is a noble idea but it's a personnal gratification thing for you. You ask your customer's to help, notice I said help, foot the bill.

[CherrystoneWeims]

What you just said sugest's to me that all the good Weim's are either dead or or live a continent away from you. They are fairly rare around here also but they are here!

You should see the Weims in my area! Pitiful in the field. I judged a hunt test last Nov. for a Weim club not far from me and it was like watching paint dry. I think that there was only ONE Weim that passed and that was a JH. The rest were like they were out for a stroll in the park. And the breeder/owners make excuses for their dogs! There were a couple that were run in SH that had more drive but I don't like the dog aggressive temperament that they are producing.

The rest of the dogs in the area are really just pretty show dogs. No wonder Weims have gotten such a bad rap for being poor hunters.

The stud that I ended up using is in VA and is producing quite well. But he is 11 yrs. old and neutered so I had to go with frozen.

No I am not out there to produce greatness but it is hard to preserve good hunting ability in Weims. I have a bitch who when I run her in FT's and HT's judges and gunners will state that is is nice to finally see a Weim who can hunt. Why would I want to "dumb her down"?

[Yawallac]

Don,

I understand what you are saying. In fact, I have a $200 pup that I am pretty happy with. But, I also have some high dollar Pointers that I feel the money was well spent. The $200 pup will make a very nice hunting dog. The high dollar pups will hopefully make good trial dogs. They are simply bred better for that. The beauty is that the more expensively bred dogs can both trial and hunt. They have a little more juice and that is worth the extra IMO.

I posted a couple of litters that have pups with incredible breeding. In fact, it would be tough to find as well bred Pointer pups anywhere. I convinced the breeder to let me post them because you don't see breeding like that on the Internet very often. He is going to put them in the Field and they will be sold almost immediately. That is the only place he ever lists pups so if you don't get the Field or know of his breeding program the average Joe would never even know about pups of that quality.

The Blackhawk litter cost him about the same as Pam mentioned. The stud fee alone was $1000. When you consider what Blackhawk is producing, the $1200 I spent for a pup will hopefully be worth the extra money. My point is that I am willing to spend more to improve my odds of getting what I want. I could certainly spend a lot less and get lucky, but the breeding is already working so the extra money is worth the risk. Over the life of the dog, the upfront money is chump change.

[bobman]

A three hunder dollar pointer will out hunt a 3000 dollar wiem 9 out of 10 pups.

[Theresa]

"An observation: I do not think you will find many Vizsla breeders that meet item 2 that will sell a pup for $300. "

Who mentioned this? (I did import this idea from another thread, but I ain't after no bargains, and I do know that I will be spending atleast upwards of 5 or 6 on a good quality V. )

"You were so close to joining us on the darkside! " Ya, I know - but I could not get one of my farmer's pointers and do it justice! I would feel terrible to have all that talent getting fat on the couch.. or tearing up the house! (I have avoided the farm for weeks now, I think the litter is sold but for his keeper. Whew!)

I figure I am after a.. pleasure dog. Not sure if that is the right term. A dog I can hunt on foot without it being a marathon, that isn't so gung ho its wasted in my hands as I want a pet above all else. Not aiming to breed, but certainly would not mind trotting around the ring if that is what my breeder wanted.

I had the pitbulls for so many years -back when I enjoyed suffering on the hard ground in a tent and hiking all over. Nowadays I rent a cabin instead of suffering the leaking tents! Not as active as I used to be, but when I go out I want a dog that both my hubby and I can enjoy - and still keep up with.

[CherrystoneWeims]

A three hunder dollar pointer will out hunt a 3000 dollar wiem 9 out of 10 pups.

Ahhh but will that $300 pointer also hunt FUR and naturally retrieve to hand WITHOUT being FF'd??

BTW I don't charge anything near $3000 for my pups! AND I run my Weims with Pointers!!

[Yawallac]

A three hunder dollar pointer will out hunt a 3000 dollar wiem 9 out of 10 pups.

Sorry Pam, but that made me laugh out loud! And to answer your question...

Rocky at 12 weeks old!

[Greg Jennings]

"An observation: I do not think you will find many Vizsla breeders that meet item 2 that will sell a pup for $300. .

Actually, I did, because I thought it was in the post used as the example price of a "cheap" pup. On review, I don't see that in the post. My apologies.

Greg J.

[bobman]

Ahhh but will that $300 pointer also hunt FUR and naturally retrieve to hand WITHOUT being FF'd??

BTW I don't charge anything near $3000 for my pups! AND I run my Weims with Pointers!!

I have one of two pointers ( pointers being EPs) and 6 shorthairs that will,


and I was just needling you for fun weims are good dogs

any dog will do what you train it to do.

Dang its hot in Georgia today, can't wait for fall....

[adogslife]

The cost to bring to a dog to any "serious" title will be upwards of about $5,000 and a hugh amount invested in time.

A show dog is a little different matter. Most likely, you will have to go to show kennels to get a "sure bet" kinda thing.
And it will cost, along with an undesirable contract.

Hunting dogs are more hit or miss, more or less.
No one can say the abilty, for sure, in a young puppy.
There are signs but, just because a puppy isn't showing those signs today, doesn't mean they won't show the signs next month.

You could probably go with a less expensive ($400)hunting line and train for and acheive noteworthy titles.

Showing a dog is all competition, which opens the door for politics. It can be fustrating and may soon loose its appeal.

Hunting titles are usually non-competitive.
This, IMHO, shows the true colors of the dog and it's handler/trainer.

Way more fun and stimulating for the dog.

[Don]

I don't have a problem with anyone that want's to pay more on the belief that they are getting something better. In some cases they certainly might. But a pup is just a pup at 7 wks. The best prospect's I would think a really serious breeder would keep and delevope and sell off the rest. many breeders do. I believe that that is pretty much the way Whele went, he developed a line. Of course few have the where-with-all of Wehle to do such things.

If indeed a breeder was to keep his/her best to truely improve the breed and sold off the rest as not up to their standard, what makes them worth the premium price?

And I understand about the weims in the field also. Years ago I judged the first hunt test put on by the wiemaraner club out here and I have to agree the quality of them as field dog's was pathetic. They really do need a shot of something.

But in the end, I get the feeling that breeders are trying to say that: "this pup I'm letting you have for a meer $1000 I really should keep, but your a nice guy so I'm gonna let you have it. Your going to trial/show it for me right?" Sure you will. And many will, most won't and I'm sure the breeder knows that when he/she sells the pup otherwise they would only sell to those that they know for a fact are trialing/showing. So the pup's that are thought to be $1000 pup's are kept and the culls are pawned off at $1000 each? That's pretty much the way it goes.

I don't care how much someone even ask's for their pup's, just be honest about what's really going on. If you know you are holding a pup that you know without a doubt will be a Nat Ch, your not selling it at any price much less a$1000!

And as for pointer's being a dime a dozen, they are not. I love pointer's but were I honest with myself I think the chances of getting a good bird dog is better with several other breed's, just not a truely great one. I read recently that only 11% of the trials are won by setter's. It also mentioned that only 11% of the entry's were setter's.

[Buckeye_V]

I sure hope you jest at the price of 500 or 600 for a quality V. Not in my neck of the woods are gonna find a bargain like that on a field-level V with anything good behind it on BOTH sides.

Justin

If you are still looking for a breeder, let me know. I know several good ones.

[phermes1]

Going rate for V's in my area, which is consistent with the prices I've heard from friends in different parts of the country - is about $1,000-$1,200.

You'll have a very hard time finding a V pup from a good breeder for $600. JMHO. On the flip side, I believe that there are breeders out there that basically 'create value' in their pups by charging more than is reasonable - ie, I charge more, so my pups are better. Again, JMHO, but a $1,500+ pup is not by any means necessarily better than a $1,000-$1,200 pup.

With all that said - the purchase price of a pup is a drop in the bucket compared to what will be spent competing it. A grand? It's not hard at all to spend that much on entry fees alone in one season.

[cgbirddogs]

Dog breeders, by and large, charge what the market will bear. People grumble and moan about what Elhew breeders charge, but the market is bearing the prices being charged. I can't tell people how to spend their money, but I don't see the benefit of paying $2,000 for a puppy then end up hunting it twice a year. Given the opportunity, that pup might have become a competitor or at a minimum a bad a** bird dog. I don't care WHAT the breeding is: if you hunt it once or twice a year it will never reach its potential. That's why you hear folks say the $200.00 pup out hunted a friend's dog who cost much more. More than likely that expensive pup was never allowed to reach his/her potential.

[Theresa]

Thanks for the price check!

A friend got a V 2 years ago - they paid less than that (pet quality, so-so breeder IMHO.)


I don't want the best field dog out there - as stated, it would be wasted in my hands. What I would want is a cull- a cull that would warm the couch, and when I did get out in the field would not be too much dog as to put me completely to shame!

I would next consider show stock - with the understanding that I would show the dog to the level the breeder wished. With such an understanding I would assume there would be a private contract, so the pricing different.

I suspect that a pet field dog would still be enough dog for my talents, and thus the basis of my pricing.

Thanks for the price check!

[Buckeye_V]

Theresa:

I don't know of many breeders that give price breaks on "culls." I do know that one breeder in particular will give small refunds ont he pup for each title you put on the dog. I like that pricing structure, as it encourages folks to be involved with their dogs and what they were bred to do.

PM for breeder recommendations, if you would like.

If you were looking for an older dog, I know of 2 - but they are not field dogs. They like to run and they like to be outside, just not really interested in birds.

Good luck in your search!

P.S. Most V's make great couch warmers, regardless of field breeding or not. My two come from some of the best-performing lines in the US, but you oughta see them cuddle!

[Theresa]

Thanks Buckeye!

I am 2-3 years out from my V. Gives me time to get better edjamacated! I guess I am thinking with my show head on - pet price vs show price; in a hunting litter, they are all hunters until proven they can't work!

I am usually knee deep in dawgs -be it my farmers pointers (too much dawg for me, I think) or my sisters show dogs - so I am often in the right place at the right time when it comes to "so and so has an x-y or a V puppy, know anyone?"

That said, I also know what a savings account is. I have no patience for 'steal deals' from the wrong breeder!

[Windyhills]

Not sure what your desires are Theresa but might suggest developing a laundry list of them--with some idea of how much you value them--before you go shopping.

I would think that a V that can really hunt well and be a nice show dog would be much harder to find than the same in many of the more popular breeds. The hunting ability is what I would worry about and focus on--IMO the problems some have mentioned with being able to find a good line of hunting Weims are also present in V's to some extent. Probably want to see proof of advanced success in the line if not actually see both parents work.

As for price, because there don't seem to be as many good hunting lines out there, the law of supply and demand could kick in. If you are dead set on a V I might be prepared to pay twice what you would for a good GSP, Britt, etc.

I really like V's and maybe one day will own one. From what I have been told--by someone who ran V's for some years--even the good ones can be a challenge to train and take a lot of time to mature and develop their hunting skills. Not for everyone.

[Buckeye_V]

Hunting is fine, but how better to prove the training level than in a test-like situation? If you don't want to put a title on the dog, then that is your perogative. She only rewards participation. I happen to like that and may do something similar when we start to breed our line.

[CherrystoneWeims]

To me training for tests and training to hunt are two different things.

The training is all the same. Training a dog to be steady to wing and shot for tests is the same as it is for wild bird hunting.

What is different is the WAY that the dog handles the hunting situation.

Without tests/trials any breeder could say that their dog is a hunting dog. BUT can they prove it?? Joe Bob down the road could say that his dog is a great hunting dog but the dog has never even been out hunting! I have seen people advertise "hunting" dogs in this manner.

I have a friend who rewards for titles put on dogs. I am thinking of doing this with the litter that is due.

[phermes1]

Theresa:

I don't know of many breeders that give price breaks on "culls." I do know that one breeder in particular will give small refunds ont he pup for each title you put on the dog. I like that pricing structure, as it encourages folks to be involved with their dogs and what they were bred to do.

I know of this breeder! I do like the idea, too. I wish there was a good way to reward the hunters as well, because finding a hunting home for a pup is every bit as rewarding as finding a competition home.
We've actually adopted the same structure with our upcoming litter - which by the behavior of our female, is up-and-coming TONIGHT.

I would think that a V that can really hunt well and be a nice show dog would be much harder to find than the same in many of the more popular breeds.

Actually, I disagree with that for the most part. Several of the more popular breeds have experienced a far more severe split between show lines and field lines than vizslas. While the vizsla breed certainly has lines that are primarily show and lines that are primarily field, the dogs produced still actually look like members of the same breed.

Of course, you still have the specimens that look real pretty but wouldn't know a quail if it hit them in the face, and you also have the stellar field dogs that fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.

[Don]

I think better than the titles is to have at least one of the parent's on site and be willing to show the prospective buyer what at least one parent will do. If both are there, so much the better, show both. But how many breeders (?) would not want to, but claim the titles instead ? I've seen a lot of pup's advertised as hunting dogs that are show champions with a JH certificate. Sorry, don't cut it. Unbleveably I even saw a litter offered out of a field ch with a JH certificate, go figure!

[Dave Quindt]

Do you allow your dogs to relocate on their own? In the places I hunt, and the birds I hunt, they would simply run away if my dog didn't relocate. Do you alow your dog to flush on command? I'm not putting down testing but there is a difference as these things would be frowned upon in the testing world.

I'm not aware of any AKC or AF formats where the dog isn't allowed to relocate on it's own. I've seen it done under judgment many times, and rewarded by the judges when appropriate.

What isn't allowed are dogs that relocate on their own during the flushing attempt. Once the handler is in front of the bird, the handler has control of the situation.

As to allowing the dog to flush, I have too much invested in my dog to take that chance. Whether its snakes in TX or porkies in WI, the risk outweighs the reward. In addition, it often puts the dog in a bad situation to mark down birds.

JMO,
Dave

[fuzznut]

If you want a dog to flush, get a flushing breed.

Tradition has a lot to do with the breeds, why buck tradition?

[ezzy333]

allowing the dog to flush is the only way you'll get a shot off.

I find this hard to picture. If you hunt grouse there are many times it is impossible to get a decent shot. In my mind that just says the bird won but I will be back.

If it's too hard to shoot, don't. This is why we call it hunting and not shooting and there is a thing called fair chase. I think the bird needs to win once in a while.

Ezzy

[Windyhills]

Question....if a dog can be successfull at field trials or other doggie games which require a dog to be more steady than is required or even desired in the field on wild birds.....and be called equally as capable a wild bird dog....why the concern for allowing them to relocate and/or flush if the situation is controlled?

I have said it before but there are situations in wild bird hunting where that can be extremely useful, in my wild bird hunting experience.

[ezzy333]

Flushing and relocating are not connected. They are two completely difference functions of a dog. Relocating is related to the pointing and pinning the bird down till it is flushed. If it has moved the dog can relocate but still not flush the bird. If it did flush the bird accidentally I wouldn't shoot since I dont want to reward a dog for a mistake.

If flushing the bird is necessary for someone to get a good shot why not go the next step and hope the dog catches the bird. Then we don't have to worry about being in position.

My point is that fair chase in my mind says we don't shoot a bird on the ground, we don't shoot over the limit and many times not even that many, and if the shot is a poor percentage shot we don't even shoot. Like I said before I don't mind seeing the bird win as it will be there for the next trip and we will see if the dog can handle it better this time.

I guess really this is a silly arguement since flushing dogs flush all the time. Just doesn't seem right though to teach a pointing dog to flush especially after we spend so much time training them not too.

I'll stand by my idea of what good dog work is and will flush my own birds if I can. If not the bird wins and we go on to the next one.


Ezzy

[Don]

Ezzy, if you're going to quote me, do it in an honest fashion. Fair chase has nothing to do with allowing my dog to flush. My dog has never hunted anything but wild birds. Wild birds don't just sit still and wait for someone to kick them lose, they run. When they do, my dog knows what he needs to do. If a bird just sat there like so many of the pen raised ones seem to do, he'd probably kill it and eat and I couldn't really blame him.

This is the kind of garbage that really turns me off of these boards. People here have no tolerance for those who don't test or trial and only use their dogs for birdhunting. I guess I'm just silly, I thought that's what these dogs were bred for. :roll:

Billy Ray,

I think you are a hunter, you talk like one. Ezzy I think is a dog man, he talk's like one. A hunter has a dog to hunt bird's. A dog man hunt's bird's because he has a dog.

[Billy Ray]

Ezzy, if you're going to quote me, do it in an honest fashion. Fair chase has nothing to do with allowing my dog to flush. My dog has never hunted anything but wild birds. Wild birds don't just sit still and wait for someone to kick them lose, they run. When they do, my dog knows what he needs to do. If a bird just sat there like so many of the pen raised ones seem to do, he'd probably kill it and eat and I couldn't really blame him.

This is the kind of garbage that really turns me off of these boards. People here have no tolerance for those who don't test or trial and only use their dogs for birdhunting. I guess I'm just silly, I thought that's what these dogs were bred for. :roll:

Billy Ray,

I think you are a hunter, you talk like one. Ezzy I think is a dog man, he talk's like one. A hunter has a dog to hunt bird's. A dog man hunt's bird's because he has a dog.

I'll take that as a compliment, Don.

[GsPJustin]

Like it has been said before there's a difference between hunting, and the sport of dogs. Some people use them for different reasons than others. Is baggin' birds bad? Not if you do it to eat. Is hunting the dogs for the gentlemen side of the sport and doing tests and trials bad? Not if thats what you like. Either way we all have one thing in common, that is we like our dogs and we strive to better them. No one way is really wrong, so stop trying to prove that it is.

The way I see it, there are pointing dogs, flushing dogs, and retrieving dogs. You can get what you need to suit your needs. But if you want to train one to do other things, be my guest. Just because its not what the dog was intentionally bred for isn't a reason not to do it. Its just not something everyone has to do. And shouldn't if they dont want to. I like having a pointing dog point. If I cant flush the bird, we move on. Its not all about the shot. Thats just me.

IMO do what you need to, but its your choice, just keep it at that, there is not reason to prove once choice is better than the other.

[Buckeye_V]

I'll put the NAFC AFC DC MH up against any hunting dog and I gurantee he'll do just as good or better. Why? Because he is a smart dog that has seen wild birds, planted birds and been in just about every situation there is.

If you have a good hunting dog, why not take it to a test to see how well it stacks against the competition? The reason I ask is that the breeder we are talking about wants to see how good it is and how much the new owner is putting into the dog via training, etc. The only way to prove it without her actually being there is to get a title.

I applaud everyone who actually hunts their dogs. I hunt mine. Not as much as I would like, but I still do.

I

[ezzy333]

Billy Ray

This is the kind of garbage that really turns me off of these boards. People here have no tolerance for those who don't test or trial and only use their dogs for birdhunting. I guess I'm just silly, I thought that's what these dogs were bred for.

We do have discussions here and different opinions. We also learn to tolerate someone else's opinion without getting personnal. You can continue to hunt the way you want and it won't make any difference to me, and I will do the same. Oh, I have hunted a few birds in my life time and realize pheasants run sometimes. I do find a good dog with some experience will pin them down o where it isn't much of a problem.

Thank you Don for that analigy. You just may be right.

Ezzy

[Windyhills]

Ezzy, there are times when it seems wild pheasants run ALL the time. Last year was one of those for us.

Ran into a few hunters with what appeared to be decent pointing dogs and your mindset who did VERY poorly. The good dogs--when allowed to, as they show us they are old and/or experienced enough--can adjust without many problems.

This dispute has always baffled me, as I seem to recall hearing from many folks who both trial and hunt wild birds that say they allow their dogs to do things while hunting wild birds that they clean up when the games start. Their dogs adjust.

[CherrystoneWeims]

This dispute has always baffled me, as I seem to recall hearing from many folks who both trial and hunt wild birds that say they allow their dogs to do things while hunting wild birds that they clean up when the games start. Their dogs adjust.

That's what I try to do with mine. I also don't want a dog who is going to go in and flush a bird. A dog like this is more likely to not stay steady to shot. Way too many dogs get shot by not being steady!

That said I have a bitch who is due to whelp any day. Last week when I took her out to hunt I didn't "put the screws" to her and make her work at the Master level that she normally hunts at. I feel at this point I want her to have more fun and not stress out too much!

[Don]

This dispute has always baffled me, as I seem to recall hearing from many folks who both trial and hunt wild birds that say they allow their dogs to do things while hunting wild birds that they clean up when the games start. Their dogs adjust.

That's what I try to do with mine. I also don't want a dog who is going to go in and flush a bird. A dog like this is more likely to not stay steady to shot. Way too many dogs get shot by not being steady!

That said I have a bitch who is due to whelp any day. Last week when I took her out to hunt I didn't "put the screws" to her and make her work at the Master level that she normally hunts at. I feel at this point I want her to have more fun and not stress out too much!

The idea of allowing a trial dog to do things in hunting that you don't allow in trials doesn't set well with me, and I do know people that do it. But my feeling is that you have a dog always hanging in the twilight zone. It has to re-learn the game every time you start over. If your going to trial, hunt a trial dog. Require it to maintain the same manner's at all time's. I hunted trial dog's and it wasn't a problem, the dog's knew what I insisted on the same preformance in both situtation's. The only real difference between a trial dog and a hunting dog is the level of training. Anybody that thinks a field trial dog cannot maintain field trial standards and still hunt with the best hunting dogs is terribly mistaken.

Some of this sound similar to telling a Dr that just graduates college that now that he's graduated, he no longer has to retain what he's learned. He learned enough in high school health and biology class's to do what's needed. Distribute asprins, wrap on a bandage and disect a frog!

I also think that the biggest reason's hunter's don't finish dog's to trial or master hunter standards is that most either don't have the time, the money to pay someone else to do it or the knowledge to do it themselves.
Heck, why tune up the car? It run's good enough the way it is!

[Billy Ray]

This dispute has always baffled me, as I seem to recall hearing from many folks who both trial and hunt wild birds that say they allow their dogs to do things while hunting wild birds that they clean up when the games start. Their dogs adjust.

Way too many dogs get shot by not being steady!

T!

No. Dogs get shot because people are idiots and unsafe.

[Billy Ray]

I'll put the NAFC AFC DC MH up against any hunting dog and I gurantee he'll do just as good or better.

Well since you seem to want to start a pissin match, there isn't a Viszla out there that can stay with my dog, no matter what the venue. I woud feel more than comfortable putting my poor untitled wirehair up against your super dog. Then after he's done burning your dog on birds, we could move on to other things like coyotes or racoons. Shouldn't be a problem for your mutt, should it?

[Billy Ray]

I also think that the biggest reason's hunter's don't finish dog's to trial or master hunter standards is that most either don't have the time, the money to pay someone else to do it or the knowledge to do it themselves.

Or maybe they just aren't intersted in doggie games.

[Windyhills]

I don't want to join in on any peeing matches here, but I think we have people who just aren't hearing each other.

Don, like I said, last fall every time I traveled to South Dakota later in their season the wild pheasants would not hold well. A dog to have any success at all had to relocate--sometimes MANY times--on each bird. And it would be best for the dog to do that all by itself too, these birds would not sit long enough for the hunters to get to the dog to verbally tell them to relocate, you'd be chasing birds all day if the dog waited for the handlers command.

At times--just the nature of the beast, not often a problem of the dog--a dog will bust a bird when re-locating. Could be a different one than it was trailing, could be the same one that just decided enough is enough.

Now I could be wrong, but a dog that handles wild birds on it's own with many self-relocates like that would not do well in a trial judges eyes.

Another thing I don't think people are connecting on...seems to me that some think that allowing a dog to re-locate and/or flush means they then keep going, chase birds, bust birds, get in the path of shooters, etc.

Not at all true the way I like to train. Stop to Flush works wonders here.

There are some--particularly wild pheasant hunters it seems--who do like their dog to keep going, as the other problem with pheasants is catching up to wounded ones-- and they think their chances are improved with a dog that gets on the bird as fast as possible.

Would be interested in hearing how some wild chukar hunters handle things, they probably have it worse than I have described.

[GsPJustin]

No. Dogs get shot because people are idiots and unsafe.

True, but if your dog was steady you would have to aim at the dog to shoot it, there is more than one good reason to train a dog to steady to shot.

Well since you seem to want to start a pissin match, there isn't a Viszla out there that can stay with my dog, no matter what the venue. I woud feel more than comfortable putting my poor untitled wirehair up against your super dog. Then after he's done burning your dog on birds, we could move on to other things like coyotes or racoons. Shouldn't be a problem for your mutt, should it?

I don't see once in his whole post where he tried to throw the breed of a dog in as a factor.

Or maybe they just aren't intersted in doggie games.

Or maybe they don't have the money or the knowledge. I don't know of to many people that wouldn't "like" to have a title on there dog. But they just don't know where to start and they get overwhelmed and just pass on it entirely.

Like Ezzy said on these message boards we have discussion, the opinions in these vary, if you don't like it, don't join the discussion.[/quote]

[Don]

I am just courious how many of you that don't want a finished bird dog have ever:

trained one,
hunted over one,
are fairly new to bird hunting (say 5 yrs or less),
are fairly young people (say under 40)?

I ask because there are a many misconception's about finished dogs here.
I would not want to put a poor finished dog up against a good un-finished dog and if you want to put your un-finished dog up against a well trained finished dog, don't bet the farm you'll out produce it. Although you may on any given day, the bird count is more likely to be a product of circumstance than anything else.

A finished dog is about a level of training, that's all. It is that finish that bring's as much enjoyment as anything else to those that want it. For the rest who claim to only wanting hunting dog's, whatever that conotate's, most of your dog's come from the same gene pool as the other's. What makes you think any, either hunting or trial type, are any more or less capabile? And if you don't like trial type dogs, why do you buy from those line's? If you claim you don't but buy from NSTRA lines, where do you think most of those lines come from? If your talking about NAVADA type dogs, that's fine, your talking about a different view of what's expected of a dog. I wouldn't bet the farm that some of our AKC and Amer Fld dog's could not be trained to the same level's. For there is the real answer to this. It's a difference in training and the level you presue. The dog's are just dog's.

By the way, the vast majority of people that have been by the house and watched a finished dog work have made comment's like, "wish I could afford one of those". You can. It doesn't cost even one more penny to make a finished dog as an un-finished dog. Not one penny! What is required is a different attitude about what you want.

[ezzy333]

Don,

You can quit posting now as you have just nailed all there is to know about birddogs and their hunting ability. Dogs are bred to hunt and by and large do it quite well. People are bred to teach the dog manners and many don't do it for a mirage of reasons. But dogs are dogs and we are trainers and there is a much wider variance in the trainer than in the dog. You can choose the type of pup you want and then the rest is pretty much up to you.

Ezzy

[Buckeye_V]

No peeing match here. I'm just saying that he's as good as any hunting dog. I've seen him put "good hunting dogs" to shame in field trials and hunting. We haven't trained the dog to hunt yotes or coons because we don't like to hunt those.

However, dogs out of the line have been known to trail hogs in Texas until the pits get in for the tangle and to trail wounded moose in Canada - but hey, it's just a crappy red dog.

I never said my bred was better than your breed. I was not the one who was the "snob." I am not a "field trial snob." I just like good dogs, whether they be hunting dogs, test dogs or trial dogs.

This thread took a turn somewhere back there away from the original point.

I think all this crankiness is misplaced.

[Sonny Hawkins]

Just thought I would give my opinion. I like a dog that will find and point, I like to do the flushing,whether on wild birds or trialing.PS. BUY AMERICAN and keep AMERICA STRONG. SONNY

BRITTS make good flushing dogs.