Hunt Test Question. Pheasant in Master?

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:38 pm

I could put this in events, but thought I'd get more input in General.

I am the new Test Chair for our Club and really want to put on a great Test this Fall. Our Test have always had a large draw from all over the Mid-Atlantic and up into New York, but I'd really like to step it up a notch and am considering putting Phez down in Master level, as well as Quail and Chukar. 1 of each to be specific.

So my question is:
Would you find this kind of "challenge" to be appropriate for a Master level dog? They are Master after all and should be able to handle ANY bird. Would you travel a bit further for a Test that added this into what is already known as a "Class" Test? Would you be willing to pay an extra dollar or 2 for the addition of a Phez to your Master level brace? Any other thoughts or suggestions?

We already salt fields heavily before beginning in all levels, place 3-4 birds minimum every single brace at every level and plant additional as the Judges request, based on the number of birds taken out of a field during any brace where a spectacular dog may have really cleaned up. We have Bar-b-q, all the fixins, fries, drinks, etc.... catered by a really kick butt bar-b-q fella locally, raffles, demos, etc... and we strive to make this a 100% family oriented event.

All input welcome!

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:26 pm

I could be wrong but I think most people are only interested in the title. If your mixed bag makes it harder I think people will shy from it.

JMO

Ezzy

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:33 pm

I wouldn't consider it too great of a challenge, but I agree with Ezzy that most people are attending to earn the title and appreciate any efforts to keep entry cost low.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:35 pm

The part of me that knows that my dog loves pheasant says yes.
The part of me that knows that getting a MH leg can already be a b*tch when we're only on quail says no.
That's my totally honest answer.

My practical answer: If I lived in your area and was currently pursuing a MH title, the inclusion of pheasant would not stop me from entering your test. I wouldn't mind paying a little extra for them either - what's a few bucks, right?
On the same note, pheasant wouldn't make me go out of my way to enter that HT, either. If I needed legs, I'd enter. If I didn't, I wouldn't. Whatever birds you used wouldn't matter one way or the other.

In either case, if you were to use pheasant, I'd consider using them only for retrieving in the birdfield.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:47 pm

I think Ezzy is right. People only care about the title. At any rate, putting out pen raised phesant's isn't going to make it that much harder except for when the bird get's up in front of the dog. A dog not used to seeing birds that big may come unhinged. But it's either worthy of the master title or it's not!

You might also find the economics of phesant's a bit tuff. I think pen raised phesant's are fetching close to $10 per bird out here now.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:32 pm

That's my biggest concern Ezzy. Most seem more concerned about just getting the leg than actually going out, having an enjoyable day with Fido and just showing the dog to the best of its ability and your training/handling for the Judge.

Cost wise the Phez are slightly more expensive than Chukar, which is why I would only offer them in Master. The birds from my supplier(quailfarm on here) are extremely wild and act a great deal more like wild birds than I've seen previously pen raised. ie. If it's windy, the Phez will run before they fly or if calm, will get up ahead of you quite often if lack of care is exercised. ie. QUIET!

I would put them in the bird field for the shot and retrieve. Handler might even like to take them home for dinner or a mount!

While earning a leg on a Phez may not make a hoot when it comes to breeding or just getting the Title, I would think it far more enjoyable and satisfying than "just another test".

Our cost are about as low as could be asked from a Club currently, 35. for Junior and 37. for SR./MR. and I don't feel a dollar or 2 more would be much, but if Handlers would prefer not to have a Phez., then the point of cost would already be kind of moot.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:43 pm

One thing to consider is how many entrants have already hunted over pheasants.They are a tougher bird to hunt(runners) and can be veiwed as a liability in a test.
Maybe you will scare more away than impress?

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:03 pm

AHGSP wrote: While earning a leg on a Phez may not make a hoot when it comes to breeding or just getting the Title, I would think it far more enjoyable and satisfying than "just another test".

Our cost are about as low as could be asked from a Club currently, 35. for Junior and 37. for SR./MR. and I don't feel a dollar or 2 more would be much, but if Handlers would prefer not to have a Phez., then the point of cost would already be kind of moot.

On further thought - I'd say it doesn't hurt to try anything once. Try to keep the entry fee increase to a minimum and hey - why not. The risk of slightly fewer entries at one HT isn't going to sink your club.
It might be tougher, but I think it'd be cool. If my dog handled running pheasant well and passed, I'd feel pretty proud of his performance. If he blew it - well, he's blown it for less, it wouldn't be the first time, and I'd get over it pretty quick!!!

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:49 pm

You better make dang sure you've got enough bird planters with experience planting pheasants for a bird field situation, or you're going to have a clusterf**k.

Also, make sure all of the judges horses are dead broke and proofed on pheasants. A judges horse that steps on a rooster that then flushes back into the horses face can turn a hunt test into a rodeo real fast. A good friend of mine got dragged almost 100 yards judging a hunt test; the handler, instead of handing, tossed the judge the "dead" pheasant which came back to life 24" away from the horse's head. A nice big rooster flapping like crazy in front of both horses; one judge got tossed and the other got dragged. Not a good deal and both were experienced horsemen.

While I understand what you are trying to accomplish, but I'd rather see all chukars. If you can make it happen, I'd really like to see Huns. Want to draw at a hunt test, run a single course without birdfield.

I would never shy away from a test that had pheasants; I used to drive 5+ hours to run a walking trial where they'd use pheasants in the callback. Having said that, I wouldn't go out of my way to run a test that did use pheasants.

JMO,
Dave

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:04 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:You better make dang sure you've got enough bird planters with experience planting pheasants for a bird field situation, or you're going to have a clusterf**k.

Also, make sure all of the judges horses are dead broke and proofed on pheasants. A judges horse that steps on a rooster that then flushes back into the horses face can turn a hunt test into a rodeo real fast. A good friend of mine got dragged almost 100 yards judging a hunt test; the handler, instead of handing, tossed the judge the "dead" pheasant which came back to life 24" away from the horse's head. A nice big rooster flapping like crazy in front of both horses; one judge got tossed and the other got dragged. Not a good deal and both were experienced horsemen.

While I understand what you are trying to accomplish, but I'd rather see all chukars. If you can make it happen, I'd really like to see Huns. Want to draw at a hunt test, run a single course without birdfield.

I would never shy away from a test that had pheasants; I used to drive 5+ hours to run a walking trial where they'd use pheasants in the callback. Having said that, I wouldn't go out of my way to run a test that did use pheasants.

JMO,
Dave

Good points Dave. The horses are in fact dead broke FT gallery horses from a local wrangler that takes care of most of our local Trials. I don't think they could go if they wanted too! I tried to scout off one for a fella that needed a last minute scout....HAH! Yea... that was fun to try without spurs! They don't even go back to the trailer real fast!

Huns would be realllly nice, but they ARE EXPENSIVE! At least locally anyway.

We have the grounds that we could run a single course without a birdfield, probably very successfully, but then you eliminate the possibility to walk gallery on the course up until the birdfield. Granted, not many do walk gallery, but I'd hate to have to say no to someone that did want to walk the Senior/Master braces to learn or watch. Currently we run single course WITH birdfield.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:17 pm

Bruce,

I wouldn't get on a wrangler horse if I was judging with pheasants in the field. How many FT gallery rides have you been on where pheasants flush through the legs of the horses? I ride at least 100 FT braces a year and have never had it happen.

Those two horses that I mentioned before; both were wrangler horses.

IMO nothing will bring out more entries than clubs that run courses without birdfields. I'll go out of my way to run those tests; you get a better test of the dogs and it's more fun for the participants and judges.

FWIW,
Dave

Jager · Post by **Jager** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:54 pm

Hi Bruce, as Dave suggested...finding an experienced bird planter for pheasants would be absolute, as you are well aware too much dizzying can kill one and not enough and there gone well before the dog/handler/judges get into position. However, to answer your question, I feel that my pooch should not have an issue on whatever bird is in the field especially at the MH level. As far as the cost, nowadays, what is few extra bucks. Take care, and hope to see ya soon. I am/will be applying to be a member at this club as well in the near future.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:32 pm

I have run NAVHDA with Pheasants. As stated either the dog is MH or Not. A planted bird is a planted bird when done right. I thing the best quality test I have been in have had Chuckars. Even a bad flying chuckar still give you good retrieves. Dogs really staunch up nice on them. They cause noise on flush. I like them and they are practicle. I don't think the pheasant will matter to real MH dogs. Then in AKC you have a lot of show folks that get intimidated by things that they did not prepare for. IMHO

Windyhills · Post by **Windyhills** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:38 pm

Never seen it myself, but don't believe it's unheard of to run into pheasants in tests up here, as many grounds are shooting preserves that release pheasants for their clients much of the year.

Personally, I'd much rather see loose planted pheasants than the lousy flying quail they have in the spring at some venues here. If someone could talk the organizers into releasing only hens--which tend to be less likely to run out on a dog....it would be better. Not sure how some judges would handle a lot of non-productive points on roosters that move away from the dogs.

NE Vizsla · Post by **NE Vizsla** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:08 pm

Id come for the BBQ..wouldnt care about the Roosters..thats all i hunt anyways

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:43 pm

You folks are giving me plenty of food for thought.
Speaking of which NEV, the bar-b-q is really kick a$$, smack your lips good!

Anyone have an opinion from the Judges saddle on NP's on running birds? On other aspects of how they would view the dog work in this situation?

The mixed cover at these grounds is plenty thick through the rows and would be conducive to a bird just running circles around a dog back and forth between strips. Could play havoc on even the best of dog......
Heck, it has played havoc on my go to Grouse dog and he has handled everything from Doodles, Grouse, Quail, Chukar and Phez perfectly. Had a windy day last year, handling Percy for an Uncle and Cousin on a preserve, and birds from this same supplier just ran out from under the dog. Wouldn't fly! They would cross out of the sorghum, across the mowed strip and start heading up the next strip of sorghum. One of the downfalls of a dog broke STWS&F I suppose. He'd point, I'd see him let down on his intensity and knew to try to get to the front and block. Poor dog didn't know what to do with the Phez on that day. On a side note, they were playing havoc on the Preserves FB Springers too, when they brought them out! They just couldn't put a bird up and they were working their tails off!

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:42 am

I would try it, but make sure your planters know how to plant a pheasant. I would make sure the gunners have the appropriate experience, the horse dependable and the judges who are able to judge realistically when a bird runs off or anything else that results in no shot bird.

I think it particularly impressive if you pass with a trifecta and the dog would be worthy of a MH pass if they handled all three.

The continuous course would not draw entrants in my neck of the woods.

Where are your grounds at? If they are within reason I may make a trip down that way.

Justin

bh99 · Post by **bh99** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:44 am

Like someone else said you can always try it once. To me I wouldn't go out of my way to attend just because of phez. I think phez could make it harded with them liking to move but at the same time it would allow judges to see a dog relocate. The additional money would be no big deal as I usually spend more on food and gas than my entry fees.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:15 pm

Dogs are more likely to relocate on a phez. cause they like to run but you are not allowed to do that in Hunt tests. I would attend one if there was one close here (most my dogs are alot better on Phez. than quail). I am afraid most would not esp. for MH. We don't have many master dogs at tests around here anyway. The problem with a full course test with no birdfield is the birds. People need to know where to set them and how. The Fort detroit german wirehair club has done this for years and it sounds great but everytime it is the same thing "dogs don't find birds". It is the worst for JH dogs and lets face it that is most the attendance. The attandance has been so poor at the GWP club events here they have decided this year there will be a bird field.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:43 pm

Justin,
The grounds are at McKee-Bescher WMA in Seneca, Md. Sept. 22-23, 2007.

I still haven't made up my mind on the Phez, but need to do so soon.....gotta get my Premium printed and sent out. I'm seriously considering giving it a 1 time shot and then take input from all involved; Handlers, Judges, Planters and Gunners; to see if it will only be a 1 time deal, or possible become a regular feature to the Master level.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:12 pm

You can always do this - state in the premium quail and/or chukar and/or pheasant will be used.

If it ends up being a total nightmare, you can just not use pheasant for Sunday.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:17 pm

phermes1 wrote:You can always do this - state in the premium quail and/or chukar and/or pheasant will be used.

If it ends up being a total nightmare, you can just not use pheasant for Sunday.

There we go! Thanx for the idea and I think I will do just exactly this!

parshal · Post by **parshal** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:38 pm

The MH tests I've run have all been run on quail (I'd rather see chukars, quail present their own host of problems) but there have always been some pheasants around. My dog has come into contact with some at tests and they did take out a few of the lesser prepared dogs. Most of the people complained about the fact that there were pheasants but it was obvious those complaining were not hunters. Personally, I would not care if there were pheasants or not but I would not travel specifically because they were used (I had to travel for all my tests anyway).

I'll say this, though, that most dogs I've seen running MH are unprepared and the use of pheasants will, in my opinion, decrease the number of passing dogs. I say that not discourage the use of pheasants but just to say what I've seen/believe.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:14 pm

The grounds are at McKee-Bescher WMA in Seneca, Md. Sept. 22-23, 2007.

Sounds pretty cool! Might hurt your entries but with the draw that you get anyway, probably not. I wish all MH tests included quail, chukars and pheasants. That would be a very good challenge.

BTW, there have been LOTS of quail, chukars and pheasants planted on those grounds!

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:55 pm

Others may surely think differently than me, but when it comes to running in HT's, I run in whatever is available. It's basically going to take some really odd circumstances, a conflict, or a really bad judge to keep me from running. A MH title requires either 5 or 6 legs, depending on if the dog has its SH. What I've been told is that the average passing rate for MH is 50% at best - so with 5 legs, you would need about 5 weekends of hunt tests to earn the title. My dog required 6 weekends. At least in our area, that encompasses most of the HT's available to enter, so there isn't a lot of flexibility in skipping HT's if you want to get the title finished.

My point is this - I doubt using pheasant will affect your entries significantly. People are out there in pursuit of a title. While the use of pheasant might not always be their idea of a great situation, they have a better shot at passing if they at least try and see if it works out - than they do sitting at home on the couch because the big bad pheasant scared them away.

Again, that's just me. If I lived nearby and had a dog in MH, I'd enter your test without hesitation.

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:02 pm

I do not think I would want to run in Master on Phes if I did not have a chance to train on them. I like to be prepared. I see no problem with Chuker, as they are more like the quail, great to work on. (plus eat food). I think it may back some people off for the same reason, as they don't have the availability to train on them. JMO

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:25 pm

Yawallac wrote:
The grounds are at McKee-Bescher WMA in Seneca, Md. Sept. 22-23, 2007.
Sounds pretty cool! Might hurt your entries but with the draw that you get anyway, probably not. I wish all MH tests included quail, chukars and pheasants. That would be a very good challenge.

BTW, there have been LOTS of quail, chukars and pheasants planted on those grounds!

YES THERE HAS!!!!!
Should be a bird hunters mecca when you consider the number of birds that are released there in just 1 Spring/Summer between Potomac Chapter of NAVHDA, Mason Dixon GSPC, Northern VA. Brit Club, MD. Sporting Dog Club, Ruffed Grouse Society.......forgetting anyone?

I know Mason Dixon releases around 700 Quail and 100 Chukar there between 2 Hunt Test and 2 Training Days prior to the Test and another 50-100 Quail for the Walking Trial.
Potomac dumps a butt load of birds in there between the weekly training and their Test as well, don't even want to guess a number, but I know it's up there.
Northern VA. probably puts out about half of what Mason Dixon does with their 2 one day Test, maybe 350 Quail and 50 Chukar.
MD. Sporting Dog probably puts out 100-200 Chukar or better for their Spaniel Test and RGS probably another 50-100 Chukars for their Dog Training Day and Chukar Challenge.

How long have those grounds been in use Ross?

Go ahead, date yourself!

That's a lot of birds!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:18 pm

I went to my first NAVHDA training day on those grounds in 1979!! Holy cow am I old!!

Sounds like you are enjoying the process of organizing the test. I'd come just for the BBQ!

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:45 pm

snips wrote:I do not think I would want to run in Master on Phes if I did not have a chance to train on them. I like to be prepared. I see no problem with Chuker, as they are more like the quail, great to work on. (plus eat food). I think it may back some people off for the same reason, as they don't have the availability to train on them. JMO

It might cut down on your entrants from the southern states. We don't have pheasant down here so our dogs don't get to see them.

There are a couple of places to go here in SC where they will put out a few pheasant but at $20 a pop it's a little too steep for me!

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:53 pm

the way I see things is by adding any sort of "challenge" your only setting up dogs to fail. this failure will fall back on you as the reason the handlers dog failed.

also if you "try it" and you have dogs fail and do away with the pheasants do you rerun those dogs that failed? not really fair to fail dogs than allow others to pass because it didn't work out.

FWIW

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:02 am

The only fair way to try it is to use pheasant for every brace in one day - and only do away with them for the 2nd day if things didn't go well.

Like I said before - it could be tough, but what the heck, I'd give it a shot. My chances of getting a leg are still better than they are at home sitting on the couch.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:55 am

These are Master Hunters right? They should be able to handle any type of upland game. I wish that all MH Tests required quail, chukars & pheasants. Since it is not a requirement I'm sure you'll get some negative feedback as you are here. But the test should be a test for a "Master Hunter" IMO. Most NAVHDA UT tests use all three, at least they used to and it can be very challenging. Best of luck with whatever you decide. Sounds like you'll have a lot of fun!

Don · Post by **Don** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:27 am

CherrystoneWeims wrote:
snips wrote:I do not think I would want to run in Master on Phes if I did not have a chance to train on them. I like to be prepared. I see no problem with Chuker, as they are more like the quail, great to work on. (plus eat food). I think it may back some people off for the same reason, as they don't have the availability to train on them. JMO
It might cut down on your entrants from the southern states. We don't have pheasant down here so our dogs don't get to see them.

There are a couple of places to go here in SC where they will put out a few pheasant but at $20 a pop it's a little too steep for me!

That is a great point. And the more I think of it, Casper is right, you'd be setting some dogs up to fail.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:44 am

You know, though. The AKC is wanting to make it harder to get dogs to attain MH-level, so this would be fine in my book. In every test you are setting some dogs up to fail, depending on their level fo training and hunting exposure.

An example would be, not allowing a dog to delayed chase a missed bird. If I am hunting, we are going after that bird, as I know where it is (generally) now. In a testing situation that is a no-no, so a dog who gets hunted alot may be set up to fail. You see my point?

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:11 am

Buckeye_V wrote:You know, though. The AKC is wanting to make it harder to get dogs to attain MH-level, so this would be fine in my book.

Besides that, this type of increase in difficulty at least makes some sort of sense - instead of just making the test more difficult for the sake of making it more difficult.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:19 am

Master does not need to be harder than it is. Anyone out there have a MH and think it was easy??

parshal · Post by **parshal** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:28 am

ohiogsp wrote:Anyone out there have a MH and think it was easy??

No, it's not easy. Your dog must be 150% prepared and prepared for anything. You have to go into it knowing your dog will pass (unless it gets a bad break) instead of going into it hoping your dog will do it.

I spent six weekends in preparation and trained with eight different dogs. I never trained in the same place more than twice and then not back to back. I used 75 - 100 birds in those six weekends. If I knew there were pheasants to be used in a test I'd buy some and proof my dog on those.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:32 am

its been said several times that these are MH dogs and should be able to handle all game equally well. How many of these MH dogs are likely to encounter Quail, Chukar, and Pheasants in the same hunt? Given Bruces location and what he has said about where entries come from I would say never unless they were only hunted on preserves.

JMO, FWIW

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:40 am

Buckeye_V wrote:

An example would be, not allowing a dog to delayed chase a missed bird. If I am hunting, we are going after that bird, as I know where it is (generally) now. In a testing situation that is a no-no, so a dog who gets hunted alot may be set up to fail. You see my point?

No I don't. Delayed chase has NOTHING to do with "setting a dog up to fail". Delayed chase shows a lack of obedience, and is an extension of self-hunting.

Let's say you are hunting, going up a hedgerow that runs south to north. To the east of the hedgerow is a fence and private property on the other side. You flush a hen pheasant out of the hedgerow that flies east over the fence. When you turn the dog loose to continue hunting to the north, he spins around, heads east & crosses the fence, and repoints that hen. What was accomplished by this?

Delayed chase is the dog deciding what direction he wants to hunt in, and that he wants to chase birds.

In Masters, you need to show the judges that your dog is a well-mannered, polished hunting dog. Delayed chase is not something a well-mannered dog does. Just because you allow it when you hunt doesn't mean it's acceptable to others; I don't let dogs delay chase when I hunt wild birds.

Regarding making Masters tougher; Masters has actually gotten easier over the past decade. A decade ago, if a dog moved when a bird got up you were done. With the addition of the "excitement hop" as allowed in the rules, steadiness has slipped some. What we are seeing in the latest rule changes by the AKC is language defining things that used to be common knowledge, like flagging on game.

JMO,
Dave

parshal · Post by **parshal** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:53 am

Dave Quindt wrote:Regarding making Masters tougher; Masters has actually gotten easier over the past decade. A decade ago, if a dog moved when a bird got up you were done.

Dave, I think it matters where you are located as to whether it's gotten harder. I was shocked at the retrieving that was allowed to pass the tests I ran. Some was atrocious. Then, I talked to some guys in the Wisconsin area and listened to some of the reasons their dog failed MH and it was much harder than what I saw. A friend passed my dog's last leg and he'd never seen a MH test. He decided then and there that the MH was not all it was cracked up to be. He thought it was a joke. Of course, he's not seen that many and may have seen a very poorly run/judged test.

Even though only 20% of the dogs passed MH the days that I ran I still thought some of those passing had no business passing. It should have been much harder. Heck, I'll admit I would not have passed my dog on one of his legs!

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:38 am

Casper wrote:its been said several times that these are MH dogs and should be able to handle all game equally well. How many of these MH dogs are likely to encounter Quail, Chukar, and Pheasants in the same hunt? Given Bruces location and what he has said about where entries come from I would say never unless they were only hunted on preserves.

JMO, FWIW

Very good point Casper. Maybe out west your way, the potential is there to see all 3, but even then I'm sure the odds are against finding all 3 in most locales in the same hunt.

Now here is something for everyone to mull over. Is MH about getting a Title? or Proving breeding stock? or Just having fun?
If it is just about getting a Title, then make it easy so it is both fun and so someone can brag they have a MH. Why else would it matter.... I think this question kind of goes to the heart of Show dogs with JH Titles. Make Master easier so anyone that has an inkling can train for it, whether the dog should be capable or not. Lets face it, not all dogs deserve the distinction.

However, if it is about the quality of breeding stock, it puts a slightly different twist on it.

This is a great discussion and is being very educational to me on the perspective of putting on a Test. More comments please!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:41 am

its been said several times that these are MH dogs and should be able to handle all game equally well. How many of these MH dogs are likely to encounter Quail, Chukar, and Pheasants in the same hunt? Given Bruces location and what he has said about where entries come from I would say never unless they were only hunted on preserves.

Casper,

As Bruce mentioned, he gets entries from all over. As far as MD is concerned, where the test is being held, I have hunted wild quail, woodcock, grouse and pheasants across the state. I don't know what the populations of pheasants are now, but in the 80s there were decent huntable numbers. I firmly believe that the test should be a very tough test. These are Master Hunters, not Senior or Junior Hunters. IMO a "Master Hunter" should be well versed in all possible upland birds, not just local birds. It should be a true test of a "Master" hunting dog.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:02 am

I say go for it. The dogs should be able to handle it.

This is not show up and get your ribbon. This is prove that your dog is worthy of the title.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:33 am

(Steadiness and retrieves)

I have always had a problem with the Steadiness meaning do not move one step. So to speak. If a dog has a bird handled (pointed) and is steady and is behind a bush or tree when the flush is made: A smart and good hunting dog will step out away from the obstical (not advancing) and get a better look at where the bird is flying so once it is shot they have a good mark. That just makes common sense. To many judges don't use common sense. If a dog were steady, you must send the dog on retrieve in which the dog has no idea which way the bird went until it sents the bird. Now, is the judge going to let you handle the dog to the bird? None I have met.

I also agree with Dave that the retrieve that I have seen that the dog passed a leg was ridiculous. My puppies retreive better than some of these MH.

Personally I think how ever this ,hop, rule was changed it follows common sense. Not moving at all just shows obedience not good hunting skills.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:04 pm

Ruffshooter wrote:(Steadiness and retrieves)

I have always had a problem with the Steadiness meaning do not move one step. So to speak. If a dog has a bird handled (pointed) and is steady and is behind a bush or tree when the flush is made: A smart and good hunting dog will step out away from the obstical (not advancing) and get a better look at where the bird is flying so once it is shot they have a good mark. That just makes common sense. To many judges don't use common sense.

There are definitely judges that judge unfairly, but the rules do state that a dog is allowed to mark the flight of the bird. A reasonable judge would allow for that. I've had my dog mark birds in MH and not get dinged for it.
I have also had my share of judges that obviously didn't want to pass anybody that day and were looking for reasons to fail dogs. I think the test should be hard, but it should also be fair.

Now here is something for everyone to mull over. Is MH about getting a Title? or Proving breeding stock? or Just having fun?

My understanding is that hunt tests were originally developed, basically, as something for people to do with their dogs, not as a means to prove breeding stock.
From that perspective, it IS about getting a title and just having fun with your dog. However, IMO, that does NOT mean it should be made easier so anyone with any dog can earn the title. A MH title is supposed to be an accomplishment - something you work for and can feel proud of. I just finished my first MH in March - it was a major b*tch. I had a few close calls and a few frustrating circumstances that really made me want to beat my head against a wall. But honestly - I wouldn't have it any other way, because when we finally finished - man, that felt GREAT.

parshal · Post by **parshal** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm

phermes1 wrote:My understanding is that hunt tests were originally developed, basically, as something for people to do with their dogs, not as a means to prove breeding stock.

Yallawac can comment further since he judged the first AKC hunt tests but my understanding is that they are based on NAVHDA's hunt tests. NAVHDA was originally developed by breeders to help better prove their breeding stock. Things have changed since then for sure.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:05 pm

The AKC Hunt Test was the brain-child of two influencial GSP men, Ken Marden and Bob McKowen. They were deeply concerned over the split developing between GSPs in the Show ring and GSPs that were being field trialed. They wanted to ensure, for the betterment of the breed, that breeders, including Show breeders would be able to have a venue that allowed them to test the hunting abilities of their dogs. And they were in the position to do it. Ken and Bob were the President and Vice President respectively, of the AKC.

They knew me from the breed ring and they knew that I was an active member of NAVHDA. They contacted me and asked if I would be willing to get another NAVHDA judge (I was an apprentice NAVHDA judge at the time) and judge the first AKC Hunt Test. They felt that since we were familiar with judging against a standard that we would be in the position to understand what they were trying to accomplish. The very first AKC Hunt Test was held by the Eastern German Shorthaired Pointer Club.

Make no mistake, the AKC Hunt test was developed to improve breeding practices.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:57 pm

Make no mistake, the AKC Hunt test was developed to improve breeding practices.

There's a big difference between "improving breeding practices" and "prove breeding stock".

The AKC "company line" has been very consistent on this; breeding stock is determined by direct competition. Champions (field, show, obedience) are to be the dogs that, through breeding, leave an impact on the breed as a whole.

Does this mean that hunt tests do not "improve breeding practices"? Not exactly, IMO. I might use hunt test titles (MH almost exclusively) to help show me what dogs are producing. Show me a dog that's produce a dozen or two MHs and I'll take a good look.

The AKC clearly states the purpose of the AKC Hunt Test:

Section 1. Purpose. The purpose of Hunting
Tests for dogs of the Pointing Breeds is to afford an
opportunity for a person to demonstrate a dog’s ability
to perform in a manner consistent with the demands of
actual hunting conditions. Testing gauges the dog’s
natural hunting ability and training.

The hunt test program on the pointing breed side was influenced by the hunt test movement within retrievers as much as anything else. The North American Hunting Retriever Assoc began in '83, and within a few years had formed a partnership with the AKC.

According to everything I've ever heard , and what the AKC has on their website ( http://www.akc.org/events/hunting_tests ... istory.cfm )
was that the Nebraska Brittany Club held the first official hunt test, less than a month after the rules were approved. I've always understood the Eastern GSPC test was a sanctioned "test" of the rules and procedures prior to the AKC Board's approval of the concept.

FWIW,
Dave

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:17 pm

Dave,

Correct. The very first AKC Hunt Test (for Pointing Dogs) was a "Sanctioned" Test held by the Eastern German Shorthaired Pointer Club. I'm not sure what your point is, but I sure am happy that you cleared it up!!

The hunt test program on the pointing breed side was influenced by the hunt test movement within retrievers as much as anything else.

I can tell you Dave, that you are wrong on this. They were influenced by NAVHDA more than anything else. That is a fact. I was there. I knew all the principals invovled including several on the original rules committee. Somehow I don't remember seeing you there. :roll:

Eveyone who has read your posts for any length of time is fully aware of your disdain for NAVHDA. Give it a rest.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:23 pm

Yawallac,

This has nothing to do with my feelings toward NAVHDA; which is a great format that's just been poorly implemented. Done right, it would be the best non-competitive format out there. Right now, it's the AKC retrievers, who've got more entries than they know what to do with.

Let's just say the retriever folks & the AKC reps involved with the first retriever hunt tests remember things differently; discussions about how to implement a hunt test program for pointers and spaniels back in '83/'84.

So what did the AKC pointing breed hunt tests take from NAVHDA, that didn't already exist in the AKC retriever hunt tests?

Just curious,
Dave