Westwind Lines Anyone?

[JoeBob1901]

I've been conversating with Gary Hutchinson about picking up one of his pups when I arrive back stateside, he seems to run a VERY strong breeding program with strong line breeding, and seems to control his breeding and who his puppies go to very strictly, which is a great thing IMO! He also lives just a few hours away from me.

I was curious what you guys thought about his breeding program/pups? I know I've seen Jacob vd Westwind on quite a few strong pedigrees. What do you guys think about his strong line breeding (what sort of IC level does it take to get to unsafe levels of line breeding?), and his dogs in general. They do cost a bit more than general pups, but he seems to have strict control on his breeding, and seems to run a business raising great pups, not running any sort of puppy mill.

I was looking at a westwind x westwind breeding. How would a mix such as Pepper and Jacob look to people who understand pedigrees better than me?

Any thoughts or suggestions? This will be my first GSP as well as bird dog, thanks!

Website: www.westwindgsps.com

[Perdido]

They offer, up-front, everything I would look for in a breeder.

You realize that GSPs are very high energy pups right up until they become extremely high energy dogs, right? It's important you understand what you're getting yourself in for...

(I've got a GSP, we love him, but he has always (just turned 4) been a handful.)

Good luck! They're wonderful dogs!

[ezzy333]

I've raised GSP's, Brits, Dobermans, Pointers, Setters, Labs, and Toy Terriers and have noticed little difference in any of the pups. All puppies are high energy if they are healthy. I do think you might see a difference in a few when they are older like a Lab that seems to settle down quicker than most, but all are active and high energy when young. I would never tell someone that our hunting breeds are any different than any healthy pup. All need attention and exercise. The little ones are just easier to provide for than a large breed but if there is a difference the terriers will win hands down. Many of them are terrors.

Ezzy

[Will]

My pup has Westwind (Jacob) on his sire's side. IMO I don't think you can go wrong with one of Gary's pups. If you do a little research, that Westwind line runs deep in alot of top dogs. I believe much of the Westwind line goes back to the Hustler line. My pup is from Top Gun kennel. I'm confident they wouldn't have introduced this Westwind line (among others from this board) if it were not top notch. Westwind and Top Gun are very committed to improving the breed. There lies the difference between breeders like them and many others.

[JoeBob1901]

They offer, up-front, everything I would look for in a breeder.

You realize that GSPs are very high energy pups right up until they become extremely high energy dogs, right? It's important you understand what you're getting yourself in for...

(I've got a GSP, we love him, but he has always (just turned 4) been a handful.)

Good luck! They're wonderful dogs!

I do realize GSP's are high energy, I live right outside of town and the dog will be kept inside/outside, depending on the weather, if anyone is home, etc. There will be a run outside..and he'll be able to run quite a bit when supervised. I will be running/biking the dog to get some of the energy out!

I believe much of the Westwind line goes back to the Hustler line.

Yes, he breeds very tight to the hillhaven/hustler line. The pups i'd be looking at would have 6-7 crosses with Hustler. I would imagine this would be a good thing, but, are there any downsides to this? The IC on the parents being around 15-20?

Thanks!

[Chaingang]

Yes, he breeds very tight to the hillhaven/hustler line. The pups i'd be looking at would have 6-7 crosses with Hustler. I would imagine this would be a good thing, but, are there any downsides to this? The IC on the parents being around 15-20?

That's pretty tight linebreeding.

The only issue (if you even want to call it that) I have heard about the Hustler linebred dogs is that some can be a little on the softer side. That is not to say that they are all like this by any means. Hence, some breeders like to mix it with something a little tougher. Brenda Roe aka "Snips" who is a member on this board has bred Hustler dogs as well. She has a living Hustler son (no that was not a typo) and could probably tell you alot more about the line.

Overall I still feel that they are an excellent line for the novice trainer who is looking for their first GSP.

[Billy Ray]

JoeBob, being this is your first bird dog, I think you're worrying about alot of needless stuff. Any halfway decently bred dog will work for you. Being it's your first bird dog, I would be careful you don't end up with a dog that is too much for you.

[bird]

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[Billy Ray]

JoeBob, being this is your first bird dog, I think you're worrying about alot of needless stuff. Any halfway decently bred dog will work for you. Being it's your first bird dog, I would be careful you don't end up with a dog that is too much for you.

Could you please elaborate. How could a Westwind dog be too much for him ?
jmo
bird

Please point out the part of my post where I said anything about Westwind?

[Perdido]

JoeBob: You've got it made! I envy you a little, you're going to be having so much fun.

Bird:
From personal experience I can tell you that yes one can get "too much dog". I'm the anecdotal guy you always hear about: More money than brains. more money than common sense.

I'll put up the pedigree on my EP against anybody's. He was too much dog for me. And he wasn't my first bird dog. I live with the fear I'm going to screw him up. It's a fair suggestion for an admitted novice. I might have thought twice had someone put that in my ear. Probably not. Maybe. Nah, wouldn't have. Might have. Only briefly. Na.

[bird]

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[volraider]

I own a Westwind dog from Gary and I would buy another without hesitation. Make sure you tell Gary what you want and that is what you will get. Westwind dogs will hunt whatever you put them on and will do a good job of it. My dog has converted more than one setter guy over to shorthairs by the way he has handled grouse.

As for high COI my dogs is over 29% and he is very stable. With Gary he knows his lines so well that I haven't heard of a single problem with one of his dogs health wise.

Brian

[Billy Ray]

Could you please elaborate. How could a Westwind dog be too much for him ?
jmo
bird

Please point out the part of my post where I said anything about Westwind?

(I would be careful you don't end up with a dog that is too much for you.) ???

I guess that is what I took by your comments meaning that a Westwind dog would be too much for him. That is why I was asking for a for a clarification of your comment. Were you saying that a Westwind dog would be too much to handle ? Because if that is what you meant, then I would have to disagree as I explained in the previous post. And if a guy is going to worry about getting a dog that is too much to handle. Well then he shouldn't get a dog in the first place, no matter what the breeding is. Dogs are like women... Who knows what you got until the honeymoon is over !

bird

All you're doing is trying to stir something up. I never mentioned Westwind. I could care less about them or GSP's in general. But the fact is someone new to bird dogs could be overwelmed by a high octane dog. Don't know if thats what Westwind has or not and don't really care.

[Perdido]

Billy Ray

All you're doing is trying to stir something up. I never mentioned Westwind. I could care less about them or GSP's in general. But the fact is someone new to bird dogs could be overwelmed by a high octane dog. Don't know if thats what Westwind has or not and don't really care.

Isn't that a GSP in your avatar?

[bird]

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[Billy Ray]

I stand corrected and apologize to Bird and anyone else I have offended. You're OK in my book Bird and I hope to learn alot from you.

[Billy Ray]

Billy Ray

All you're doing is trying to stir something up. I never mentioned Westwind. I could care less about them or GSP's in general. But the fact is someone new to bird dogs could be overwelmed by a high octane dog. Don't know if thats what Westwind has or not and don't really care.

Isn't that a GSP in your avatar?

Perdido, click on the pedigree link in my sig line. He is a GWP who is bred better than most.

[Prairie Hunter]

I have a dog with all Westwind genetics, even though I got him from Sundance Kennels in MO. His sire is Jacob vd Westwind. His dam is Pointhonor Rose v Hustler. He is the best dog I’ve ever owned. He is a bird finding machine. He has strong tracking and water skills. He backed naturally from the time he was a pup. He was very calm, even as a puppy, and he was easy to train. I would not hesitate to buy a dog from Gary.

It was mentioned that there was a lot of Hillhavens Hustler bred into Gary’s lines. However, there are other lines (Wildburg, Hustleburg, Wasserschling, Grief, Enzstrand) bred in to develop the line he is breeding today. So, your pup could be heavily influenced by some of these other genetics. Gary visited me earlier this year because he was interested in breeding my dog back into his lines. My dog has a lot of Hustler in his pedigree. However, Gary took one look at my dog, and told me to forget what the pedigree says. He said my dog is a Wasserschling dog based on body type, tail set, and some other characteristics. He was able to trace my dog all the way back to Axel v Wasserschling. The only odd thing is he got a stereotypical Wildburg head.

If the breeding between my dog and one of Gary’s takes place, I plan to keep at least one pup, maybe two. That is how much I like these lines.

[stonegripper]

I bought a pup from Gary in 2001...Apache Vd Westwind.

Can't remember sire and dam name. He was very well socialized and crate trained. At about four or five months, I was training with some fellow bird hunters off horseback in southern Oklahoma. I had a couple older dogs running the AF circuit and my Westwind pup was very young/inexperienced and got underneath a green broke horse I was on. Long story short...the horse ran over him multiple times and my Westwind experience ended there. I called Gary and I got a pup coming whenever I want one. I am more into other breeds now, but you will not go wrong with a Westwind GSP.

As far as his inbreeding CO. Challenge someone and make them say Gary is wrong. Gary knows what he's doing with his breeding and you will get what you want from him.

Best wishes and tell Gary hello....

[ohiogsp]

I want to comment on the too much dog statment. Yes, this is very possiable but as someone else said, let the breeder pick the dog for you. The breeder knows his dogs and can get you the right dog if you tell him about yourself. You want one of the middle dogs, not the alfa but not the wallflower. This is what will work good for you. That alfa dog might be the best dog in the litter but it will be the worst dog for alot of people cause they won't be able to control it.

[bird]

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[JoeBob1901]

Yes, he breeds very tight to the hillhaven/hustler line. The pups i'd be looking at would have 6-7 crosses with Hustler. I would imagine this would be a good thing, but, are there any downsides to this? The IC on the parents being around 15-20?

That's pretty tight linebreeding.

The only issue (if you even want to call it that) I have heard about the Hustler linebred dogs is that some can be a little on the softer side. That is not to say that they are all like this by any means. Hence, some breeders like to mix it with something a little tougher. Brenda Roe aka "Snips" who is a member on this board has bred Hustler dogs as well. She has a living Hustler son (no that was not a typo) and could probably tell you alot more about the line.

Overall I still feel that they are an excellent line for the novice trainer who is looking for their first GSP.

I've heard the Hustler line is "softer" than some others, what does this mean? Softer means the dog is more impressionable? Not as hard headed? etc? I feel I get conflicting ideas from people. Wouldn't "too much" dog mean you're getting a dog that is MORE hard-headed (less soft), more dominant, etc? That would be a MUCH harder dog to train? I personally am looking for a puppy who will be a very obedient, smart, calm, and well mannered puppy for my house, to take around in public, run with, bike with, and go hunting with. I feel maybe a "softer" dog, will be a little better in those circumstances?

Gary does hand-pick pups for their destined homes, which is better IMO than just randomly picking a pup, i'd rather hand pick it myself, or let a QUALIFIED breeder do the same. I feel Gary knows quite a bit about his genetic lines and what puppies he's breeding, and what traits he's carrying over, he seems VERY particular, and only breeds the best, and even then skims the cream off the crop and gives the rest limited registration. I think this should say something for the breeding stock?

He was very calm, even as a puppy, and he was easy to train. I would not hesitate to buy a dog from Gary.

Exactly what I want in a puppy, calm, and easy to train. Fun loving, and hard working.

However, Gary took one look at my dog, and told me to forget what the pedigree says. He said my dog is a Wasserschling dog based on body type, tail set, and some other characteristics. He was able to trace my dog all the way back to Axel v Wasserschling. The only odd thing is he got a stereotypical Wildburg head.

Comments like this don't even surprise me about Gary. The emails I've received back from him have been VERY precise, and i can tell he knows his dogs like the back of his hands, and he's VERY knowledgeable about every aspect of them

he breeder knows his dogs and can get you the right dog if you tell him about yourself. You want one of the middle dogs, not the alfa but not the wallflower. This is what will work good for you.

He will be hand-picking, and I will be receiving a female, which should be a little more trainable as I've heard they are a little more "natural" of a hunter? I don't know for sure if I'll be doing any trials or shows of any type right now, who knows. But, I do want to get a great companion with good breeding with great health, that has great hunting instincts.

Just curious, do many breeders give a full health guarantee on their puppies? I've noticed Gary does include quite a bit in the contract for his puppies!

Thanks for the insight!

[Greg Jennings]

"Soft" is not really the opposite of "hard headed".

A "soft" dog is one that can take relatively less pressure in training than a dog that is not as soft.

Sometimes however, a dog that is hard as nails *requires* more pressure.

Best regards, Greg J.

[JoeBob1901]

"Soft" is not really the opposite of "hard headed".

A "soft" dog is one that can take relatively less pressure in training than a dog that is not as soft.

Sometimes however, a dog that is hard as nails *requires* more pressure.

Best regards, Greg J.

Ooh I see, i wasn't for sure what "Soft" meant in terms of a bird dog...

So...less pressure in training, as in requiring shorter training sessions, risk of burning out quicker, etc?

Thanks for the help!

[snips]

Hustler dogs tend to be a softer dog, this can be good from a training standpoint, if you just take your time and be patient. He throws pups that are very natural in pointing and backing from my experience. You want a "happy medium" in a dogs temperment, not hard headed and not a mush ball for sure. I have always been skeptical of overdoing Hustler for these reasons, but like someone said, there are some other lines bred into it. Enzstrand can also be soft, but Grief and Wildburg adds some tougher stuff.

[Prairie Hunter]

Actually, soft dogs usually cannot take much pressure during training. You have to be careful with them. Putting on too much pressure, or pressure at the wrong time, can cause all kinds of problems. I have trained some soft dogs that came out great, but you have to know when to back off. Sometimes you have to find other, more creative ways to accomplish what you want.

Like they said, you're better off with a "middle or the road" temperment. They are easier to train for a 1st time trainer.

[Windyhills]

Was told that Hustler dogs run big by someone who took one of my pups...was interested in how much Hustler was in the pedigree. No idea if that holds true in dogs he produced, but might be a negative for some who like smaller dogs if it is.

[volraider]

Windyhills actually Hustler wasn't a big running dog. He usually got his wins and placements on style and ability to get around clean.

[Windyhills]

I'm sorry--I didn't mean Hustler ran big...I meant his physical SIZE was big. So I was told at least, I never saw him in person. The fellow didn't like larger GSP's for several reasons.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

There is good and bad in linebreeding just as there is in outcrossing. All breedings produce some less than desirable traits and some outstanding traits. However, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some like larger dogs, some like a softer dog, some like one that is tough and can take punishment, some like speed, some like slower methodical dogs, some like big range, some like close workers. Big range is debatable, some believe a dog that is 200 yards is rolling, some see that as a closer worker.

Spend time with the parents and the breeder. See the parents worked. Ask about the downside of what he is doing and what you can expect.

Be assured, where I am an advocate of linebreeding, I do not believe that 15% COI is by any means a tight linebreeding.

I would tend to listen to Snips and maybe look at her pups.

Just make sure the parents are the kinds of dogs you want for what you will do with the dog.

[tfbirddog2]

hey wasnt trying to offend in that pm, I knew Gary was a pretty good breeder.I have seen several pups but if he is hand picking you a pup he'll probably hit it on the head.And the hustler line here in colby is very soft it has been breed to a stronger dog out here though but like I said westwind is what I called highpowered, from the three I hunted with that was not a understatement.Good luck with the pup.

[JoeBob1901]

hey wasnt trying to offend in that pm, I knew Gary was a pretty good breeder.I have seen several pups but if he is hand picking you a pup he'll probably hit it on the head.And the hustler line here in colby is very soft it has been breed to a stronger dog out here though but like I said westwind is what I called highpowered, from the three I hunted with that was not a understatement.Good luck with the pup.

Got any links to pedigrees? Just curious what you are breeding out there Thanks!

[tfbirddog2]

Let me email them to you. this weekend, Im at work right now and there at home.My female has alot of Clown,I'll be using the same stud again in the spring so I can send peds of last litter to you to.