Who is the best GSP ever??????

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Dirtysailor » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:59 am

x2

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:50 am

Not like a pointer? Ok so what to you makes one look like a pointer? color,head,style,tail,over all conformation,movement? :)

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by ElhewPointer » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:34 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Not like a pointer? Ok so what to you makes one look like a pointer? color,head,style,tail,over all conformation,movement? :)

Ones that win. HAHAHA :D :D

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:43 am

:D & I'm waiting on a SA answer that i'm sure is coming!!

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by markj » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:50 pm

Ok so what to you makes one look like a pointer? color,head,style,tail,over all conformation,movement?
The coat. C. Bede Maxwell described it wwell in her book the new german shorthaired pointer. Also water aversion and not able to handle cold water. She described the coat as developed from the way water life used their coats. A tough hair lays close to the body for insulation and almost water proof. Also pointers lack the sharpness shrthairs have (according to her) she relates pointers as cowards on game mainly fur etc. Buy a copy and read up, it is a good read for any shorthair enthusiest.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1103
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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:32 pm

Mark I have owned that book almost aslong as I have owned GSPS.I'm asking the few that made that comment to start with. :lol:

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Joe Amatulli » Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:03 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Not like a pointer? Ok so what to you makes one look like a pointer? color,head,style,tail,over all conformation,movement? :)

Ones that win. HAHAHA :D :D
Very good point! :wink: :wink: :wink:

Dump subject! Impossible to answer by anyone that knows anything about dogs as a whole.
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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by ACooper » Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:17 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote::D & I'm waiting on a SA answer that i'm sure is coming!!
heck Ted you know they have to be solid liver with a crooked tail and like ducks to be a real GSP! 

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:03 pm

Andy NFC Buckville's Maggie Mae sure wasn't Solid Lvr & she didn't have a crooked tail but she Retrieved ducks. :lol:

Watch the DVD The GSP In America made by Bob Merkel & Harold Adams.The white dog is Maggie the heavy roan & patched dog is FC Wrenegade's Strike Three her son.
I have a couple S Lvr dogs but I don't hunt ducks & all my white dogs came from the same parents had twice as many S Lvrs then whites. :)

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by ACooper » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:20 pm

ACooper wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote::D & I'm waiting on a SA answer that i'm sure is coming!!
heck Ted you know they have to be solid liver with a crooked tail and like ducks to be a real GSP! 
Image

Just imagine there is a duck in there somewhere! :lol: :lol:

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Vision » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:56 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Not like a pointer? Ok so what to you makes one look like a pointer? color,head,style,tail,over all conformation,movement? :)
Look at the face on this pointer. I pulled the picture of the for sale section of this forum. Notice the dish face of this dog. A classic EP head.

Then look at the heads of the GSP's that posted yesterday on this thread. That is one of the major differences.

A lot of modern GSP's have that dish face to them. Rawhides Clown being one of them with a dish face.
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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Ahumphers91a » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:00 pm

Dixieland's Rusty does NOT. That's my point, but you cannot deny the EP influence.

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:06 pm

Ahumphers91a wrote:Dixieland's Rusty does NOT. That's my point, but you cannot deny the EP influence.
You can't prove it either. Rusty looked like a speckled, oversized fox terrier when he was posed. In person, the "dish" face on a Clown dog does not appear the same as in a photo and is somewhat due to some really strong jaw muscles. Clown absolutely does not show a pointer stop in any picture I've seen of him.
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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by ACooper » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:07 pm

Image

Image

Image

Image

I do believe they are suspect but not based on head type.

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Ahumphers91a » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:29 pm

Notice Clowns Ear Set as well. I'm not saying, but I will say just about every GSP has some EP dosing.

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by ACooper » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:35 pm

Ahumphers91a wrote:Notice Clowns Ear Set as well. I'm not saying, but I will say just about every GSP has some EP dosing.
Their ears look very similar to me, in shape, size and placement.

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:03 pm

If you are basing it on head shape I think your way off base,alot of the pointers you see today no longer have the dish face.Some of you guys must have better eyes then I do because I'm not suspect by any of those pics.I don't see anything that really stands out to me.Here is a question I have asked before & never been answered why is Lupoid Dermatosis only a GSP disease if these dogs have been crossed as much as some believe,looks like the pointers would either have to be carriers or???????????
Sure it has been done but is most of the GSP breed today more pointer then GSP?
Here are 2 of my dogs which to you looks like a pointer & which a GSP.
Don't worry you won't hurt my feelings I've heard it all before!! :lol:
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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Ahumphers91a » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:06 pm

Well crossing a pointer with a GSP, you can still have disease's. I'm not saying it's just looks by all means, but when it's said that they were crossed in books, you tend to believe.

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:10 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If you are basing it on head shape I think your way off base,alot of the pointers you see today no longer have the dish face.Some of you guys must have better eyes then I do because I'm not suspect by any of those pics.I don't see anything that really stands out to me.Here is a question I have asked before & never been answered why is Lupoid Dermatosis only a GSP disease if these dogs have been crossed as much as some believe,looks like the pointers would either have to be carriers or???????????
Sure it has been done but is most of the GSP breed today more pointer then GSP?
Lupoid dermatosis could be a mutation. It is more than a skin disease, if you look at the full reported effects. It is also similar to pemphigus foliaceous, which is found in several breeds.
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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:12 pm

Ahumpers do you understand the LD disease? Both dogs have to be carriers so the pointers would also have the disease & GSPS are the only breed that has it.

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by ACooper » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:24 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If you are basing it on head shape I think your way off base,alot of the pointers you see today no longer have the dish face.
Sure it has been done but is most of the GSP breed today more pointer then GSP?
I agree with this Ted way too much variation in both breeds head type, to judge a dog based on that alone.

Everyone knows it has been done, heck I like to point it out... but I don't believe most of the breed is more pointer than GSP. Some lines? Maybe...


BTW Rusty is one of the ugliest SOB's I have seen. :lol:

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:33 pm

Andy & would have to agree Rusty wasn't a very attractive dog!! Anyway his pics weren't.

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by northern cajun » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:34 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Not like a pointer? Ok so what to you makes one look like a pointer? color,head,style,tail,over all conformation,movement? :)

Ones that win. HAHAHA :D :D
Very good point! :wink: :wink: :wink:

Dump subject! Impossible to answer by anyone that knows anything about dogs as a whole.

Dang Joe you gonna need an new addition to the house soon!! Impressive.......I bet people would throw up if you tacked up a horse with one of those saddles and show up to the trial. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Ahumphers91a » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:12 pm

I like the look. everyone has diff flavors.... LOL. It's the danish lines, just about every shorthair from moesgaards, fieldacres, have that head. My male who is a Rusty Great-Grand Son, looks the same way. I think its the dominate trait. Also on the males dam's side he has Rosehills Bilbo Baggins who's sire is either a littermate or repeat breeding brother of Rusty's Sire. It seems they all have the same look. My other male looks like Rusty as well, even with his dam being very heavy with Beier's Evolution lines.

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:18 pm

No Rusty in my dogs!!!! :lol:

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Ahumphers91a » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:23 pm

the link you provide under your avatar, does that take you to your dog? says "Star" with Tonelli's Rising Son as the Sire?

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Ahumphers91a » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:25 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Not like a pointer? Ok so what to you makes one look like a pointer? color,head,style,tail,over all conformation,movement? :)

Ones that win. HAHAHA :D :D
Very good point! :wink: :wink: :wink:

Dump subject! Impossible to answer by anyone that knows anything about dogs as a whole.
GREAT ANSWER! 8)

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:27 pm

Correct the no Rusty was a little sarcasm if you saw my dogs peds etc.you would see why. :D

I have 9 by the way & they all started with 2 dogs I bought from Bob Merkel at Wrenegade Kennels accept for 2 & one of them came from Chatlie Rose & Wildrose Kennels if that tells you anything.
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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Ahumphers91a » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:31 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Correct the no Rusty was a little sarcasm if you saw my dogs peds etc.you would see why. :D

I kinda got that once I saw Tonelli :lol: I was ready to BASH :lol: :P

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Vision » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:43 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If you are basing it on head shape I think your way off base,alot of the pointers you see today no longer have the dish face.Some of you guys must have better eyes then I do because I'm not suspect by any of those pics.I don't see anything that really stands out to me.:lol:
I sure see a difference in the pics.

You are correct about the pointers no longer having the dish face.

My perspective is going back over 35 years. In the 70's there was a distinct difference between GSP and EP heads. It was universal back then. Even the Moesgaard bred GSPs had a perceptible stop compared to the prominent dish face of the pointers back then. If you have only been around GSP's for the last 20 or less years you will not have a reference point like I have. Which brings up the crux of the matter with modern day breeding of both GSP's and EP. Breeding to the current popular sire (usually based upon NFC wins not genetics) is the new form of linebreeding in both breeds. Try finding a EP without an Elhew close up in the pedigree now because of the romance surrounding the life of Bob Wehle. Nothing wrong with Elhew bred EP, but there are very few distinct families now, same in GSP. Rusty became a popular sire and his daughters were bred to clown after he won 3 NFC titles. Clown daughters were bred back to Rusty sons, or Saddle , or Lenny and so on until know all we have is homogenized pedigrees.

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Dirtysailor » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:05 am

Nice trophy room. Playing Seal Team Six on the computer with your buddies doesn't make you a Navy Seal. LOL I won't argue the dogs above won at the games but not my idea of what a GSP is. To each there own. Not my dog but an example of a fine GSP and still white.

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by ElhewPointer » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:13 am

Vision wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If you are basing it on head shape I think your way off base,alot of the pointers you see today no longer have the dish face.Some of you guys must have better eyes then I do because I'm not suspect by any of those pics.I don't see anything that really stands out to me.:lol:
I sure see a difference in the pics.

You are correct about the pointers no longer having the dish face.

My perspective is going back over 35 years. In the 70's there was a distinct difference between GSP and EP heads. It was universal back then. Even the Moesgaard bred GSPs had a perceptible stop compared to the prominent dish face of the pointers back then. If you have only been around GSP's for the last 20 or less years you will not have a reference point like I have. Which brings up the crux of the matter with modern day breeding of both GSP's and EP. Breeding to the current popular sire (usually based upon NFC wins not genetics) is the new form of linebreeding in both breeds. Try finding a EP without an Elhew close up in the pedigree now because of the romance surrounding the life of Bob Wehle. Nothing wrong with Elhew bred EP, but there are very few distinct families now, same in GSP. Rusty became a popular sire and his daughters were bred to clown after he won 3 NFC titles. Clown daughters were bred back to Rusty sons, or Saddle , or Lenny and so on until know all we have is homogenized pedigrees.
Id have to disagree with you on this. There are thousands of dogs that have never had Elhew in their paperwork. To be honest, it is quite the oppisite. Its getting harder to find a pointer with Elhew close up in the pedigree now. There are very distinct lines in the pointer world. Miller, HTA, Rebel, Elhew, etc.....

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by markj » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:22 am

Mark I have owned that book almost aslong as I have owned GSPS.I'm asking the few that made that comment to start with
It sure is a good book, she also mentions the ruination of the EP and that Arkwright got the Ep back on track, said some were crossbreeding the Eps to greyhounds to get a faster run :) and almost ruined the breed :) sounds so familiar to me hahaha

That is a nice shorthair there, the one on the cover of the book I mentioned is also what I consider a great example.

I think Bob has some pups on the ground now? Maybe was earlier he has a website.... A nice gent to talk to, he is Iowan after all :)

The Moesgaard line went bad from the breeding practises used, way to much in breeding without a craoos for new blood. Many have tried to re surrect it... Them Danes still have some fine dogs but does anyone ever import them today? Used to be a guy Blake had some but he wanted a lot for them, then he quit shorthairs completly. I used to see him up at Bassett when we travelled thru and stopped to eat there. Was a long time ago.
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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:41 am

markj wrote:
Mark I have owned that book almost aslong as I have owned GSPS.I'm asking the few that made that comment to start with
It sure is a good book, she also mentions the ruination of the EP and that Arkwright got the Ep back on track, said some were crossbreeding the Eps to greyhounds to get a faster run :) and almost ruined the breed :) sounds so familiar to me hahaha

That is a nice shorthair there, the one on the cover of the book I mentioned is also what I consider a great example.

I think Bob has some pups on the ground now? Maybe was earlier he has a website.... A nice gent to talk to, he is Iowan after all :)

The Moesgaard line went bad from the breeding practises used, way to much in breeding without a craoos for new blood. Many have tried to re surrect it... Them Danes still have some fine dogs but does anyone ever import them today? Used to be a guy Blake had some but he wanted a lot for them, then he quit shorthairs completly. I used to see him up at Bassett when we travelled thru and stopped to eat there. Was a long time ago.
Ib was a relatively inbred dog himself and he was the foundation of the line.

And, as far as the other other poster's statement that there are few lines of pointers without Elhew, that is not an accurate statement. There are many, many pointers who lack Elhew breeding.
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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by ACooper » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:03 am

Dirtysailor wrote:Nice trophy room. Playing Seal Team Six on the computer with your buddies doesn't make you a Navy Seal. LOL
Holy mackerel...ZING

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by ElhewPointer » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:07 am

Cajun Casey wrote:And, as far as the other other poster's statement that there are few lines of pointers without Elhew, that is not an accurate statement. There are many, many pointers who lack Elhew breeding.

Thank you for regurgitating what I just stated. You seem to be good at that.

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Ron R » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:34 am

Vision wrote:Try finding a EP without an Elhew close up in the pedigree now because of the romance surrounding the life of Bob Wehle.
Sorry Vagas, but that statement just oozes mis-information that I must regurgitate as well. Vision, it is extremely easy to find a pointer without any elhew breeding....we have about 20 of them. That statement is ridiculous and it's going to be hard to take anything that you say seriously because of it.
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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:48 am

Vision I have owned GSPS for over 35 yrs so yes I know what the old German Type GSP heads looked like Roman nose & all I will post a pic of my first.Things change over the yrs & this is not Germany & bird dogs should not hunt with their nose on the ground unless their tracking it's called improvement though some don't like it.If people don't like what the GSP is today there are plenty of other breeds to switch to.
Oh & you always have the ELITE DK if you want more of the German type.
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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Ron R » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:49 am

ElhewPointer wrote: To be honest, it is quite the oppisite. Its getting harder to find a pointer with Elhew close up in the pedigree now.
Finally, it's time for that line to just go away...don't ya think elhewpointer :P .
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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:05 am

Yes Ron & I think it's also time for all the EP GSP cross talk to go away.It is what it is like it or not,we can only go forwards,can't go back & change it to old times.
Either move on or change breeds.Good luck finding a breed that hasn't been crossed!!! :wink:

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Ron R » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:54 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Yes Ron & I think it's also time for all the EP GSP cross talk to go away.
But I just got involved :mrgreen: . It's pretty bad when a guy with very little GSP experience try's to chime in on a GSP topic.....and talks about Pointers :oops: .
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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by nitrex » Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:37 am

Dirtysailor wrote:Nice trophy room. Playing Seal Team Six on the computer with your buddies doesn't make you a Navy Seal. LOL I won't argue the dogs above won at the games but not my idea of what a GSP is. To each there own. Not my dog but an example of a fine GSP and still white.

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Looks like a chocolate lab in the wood pile?!?!?!?! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Vision » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:01 pm

Ron R wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote: To be honest, it is quite the oppisite. Its getting harder to find a pointer with Elhew close up in the pedigree now.
Finally, it's time for that line to just go away...don't ya think elhewpointer :P .

Ron R. I spent a few minutes cruising the sale pages on this site trying to find an EP litter born this year without an Elhew dog in a 5 generation pedigree. Zilch, not one litter advertised on this forum without Elhew blood in them. I did find one letter advertised in December without an Elhew in the five generation pedigree. So 1 out of about 15 or so litters without Elhew blood.

I know that is not a perfect sampling for a statistical analysis but at least it is a reference point.


Tell me more about my lack of GSP experience please?

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Ron R » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:19 pm

:roll:
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2786

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Ridge-Point » Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:01 pm

Rusty was heavy in Danish blood. I do not think he had any EP in him. Check out the photos, his head looks just like ib's head. With a little heavier ticking he could be a twin.

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:12 pm

Now, go look at some pictures of Old Danish Pointers. :)

Rusty was more Tell than Ib, in blood, I believe, and certainly in structure. That has led to a diminuation flaw to this day in heavy Rusty breeding.
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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Joe Amatulli » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:15 pm

Wow Eddy must be laughing his head off with what you guys have posted about Rusty.
Dirtysailor wrote:Nice trophy room. Playing Seal Team Six on the computer with your buddies doesn't make you a Navy Seal. LOL I won't argue the dogs above won at the games but not my idea of what a GSP is. To each there own. Not my dog but an example of a fine GSP and still white.

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Dirtysailer do you know the difference between playing a video game and going out and actually competing for something, will let me give you a clue none of the trophies or any of the other awards were won in front of a computer screen.

Nice looking dog to bad about the tail!

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by rschmeider » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:37 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Vision I have owned GSPS for over 35 yrs so yes I know what the old German Type GSP heads looked like Roman nose & all I will post a pic of my first.Things change over the yrs & this is not Germany & bird dogs should not hunt with their nose on the ground unless their tracking it's called improvement though some don't like it.If people don't like what the GSP is today there are plenty of other breeds to switch to.
Oh & you always have the ELITE DK if you want more of the German type.
: Black GSP/DK FC #2? A DK to boot....
by Vonzeppelinkennels » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:43 pm

Show me where I did any bashing but yeah there has been bashing on both sides if you read all this BS,always is when you start trying to seperate GSPS into more then one breed.To me they are all GSPS but you can call them what you want.
I'm done said too much already!!http://www.remekvizslas.net/dog.php4?id=23322
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Dk"s don't hunt with their nose's to the ground.I like your first post about Dk's better. :D

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Ahumphers91a » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:45 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Now, go look at some pictures of Old Danish Pointers. :)

Rusty was more Tell than Ib, in blood, I believe, and certainly in structure. That has led to a diminuation flaw to this day in heavy Rusty breeding.
Wrong, More IB than Tell
Look here: http://nextgenerationgermanshorthairs.n ... erations=5

Also one not showing, Moesgaards Girl is an IB daughter as well and her dam Doktorgaardens Lucky is a IB duaghter too!
6 Moesgaards IB in 5 gen compaired to 1 Tell in 5 gen :)

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Re: Who is the best GSP ever??????

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:05 pm

Well, he is Ib. Never looked past three generations, quite honestly, because it really doesn't matter beyond that. Didn't even realize Ruffy was in there. Still doesn't make him the best ever, though. But it does explain the inconsistencies in his descendants.
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