Hunting Dog Training, Gun Dog Puppies, and Discussion
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I'm sure she's a nice pet.brad27 wrote:more words does not mean more effort. nowhere was i bragging about how much "rusty" my dog had in her. besides, why would i care about a dog 6 and 7 gens. back in a ped. :roll: might as well said i have a hillhavenXwendy dog :roll:
and third times a loser. let's see, she's 2 for 4 with the field trials she's been in. incase you don't know what that means, out of 4 stakes she's been entered in, she has place first in 2 of them. don't believe me? look at this months GSP chronicle. month of may. yep, she has both her open and amateur puppy points. i know, only lowly puppy points, but you have to start somewhere. besides, she's not even a year old yet. and yes, she is a good pet. spends some time in the house on the couch. don't worry tho, i'll keep you updated on her progress.Cajun Casey wrote:I'm sure she's a nice pet.brad27 wrote:more words does not mean more effort. nowhere was i bragging about how much "rusty" my dog had in her. besides, why would i care about a dog 6 and 7 gens. back in a ped. :roll: might as well said i have a hillhavenXwendy dog :roll:
jasonw99 wrote:Jim Jackson I totally get what your saying. on two issues. I often wonder how many of rusty breedings were Luke? and who are rustys parents. either way I don't care because those lines are good mixed with the right dogs.
I own American shorthair pointers. really most people do. does it matter if the dogs bred in the 60 70 80 90 may have been from pointers? as long as they have some resemblance of a shorthair. Ie liver head don't throw lemon dogs. I don't really care.
I have his AKC progeny report. His AF production record is listed with in his HOF bio. I don't have his trial activity or win records, but they would be with the sanctioning bodies.Joe Amatulli wrote:I haven’t spoken to Jim yet, still too early where he lives. I do know a lot of what he knows and as far as I am concerned it means nothing because 70 to 80 present of what the dog becomes is what you put into him.
Casey hasn’t Rusty been dead for a good 25-30 years and DNA testing has only been for about 10 years, and as far as I know Rusty has never been collected, but what you are saying is that someone DNA’ed a 15 plus year old dog. Please explain.
Also can you post Rusty’s record, how many championships has he won?
jasonw99 wrote:Jim Jackson I totally get what your saying. on two issues. I often wonder how many of rusty breedings were Luke? and who are rustys parents. either way I don't care because those lines are good mixed with the right dogs.
I own American shorthair pointers. really most people do. does it matter if the dogs bred in the 60 70 80 90 may have been from pointers? as long as they have some resemblance of a shorthair. Ie liver head don't throw lemon dogs. I don't really care.
I agree.
ultracarry wrote:Like always you have to do a dance to answer a direct question Casey. I applaud you for the dance but the answer is never there .
How can your dogs have temperament issues when you don't have any dogs? You pick the flavor of The day and say you have offspring from --------.90% of us know your a joke and the other 10% are new to the board. Just let it go and start posting on a lab forum because I'm sure you have at least a dozen.
gpblitz,gpblitz wrote:Spit it out !!! Lets hear the reality. Been hearing it for years.Joe Amatulli wrote:JimJackson wrote:
I am not going to comment on this right now, but boy you guys sure do have it totally wrong on Rusty. The only thing that I will say at this point is that there is very little actual Rusty blood out there and very little of it would clear DNA resting.
Jim I think I know what you are about to write and all I can say is that most of the people on this site are not main line trialers and simply do not know much about trial dogs, but there are some that are and only read what is posted, but will not comment. Regardless you will piss off an offal lot of people that you will be rubbing shoulders with and competing against.
I’ll give you a call tomorrow, but think about this before you post it!
Very interesting from someone who seems to have first hand knowledge. Not just reading it on the web. I enjoyed your honest post. There needs to be more of that on here.JimJackson wrote:Well Joe thanks for the warning, but I am a big boy and can make a fool of myself just as well as anyone else can.
First Rusty’s pedigree has very little to do with fact. Rusty started life as a very big running, powerful derby and did get bred early, unfortunately many of the pups from the first two litters were put down because they became very aggressive when the turned a one year old. Eddy had a pointer by the name of Duke (I think that was his name and was a half brother to Rusty). In other words that pointer and Rusty had the same sire (a pointer). Eddy knowing that he needed to be careful about what got bred rarely allowed people to be present when they wanted to breed to Rusty. Almost all of Rusty’s breeding was done by his half brother, not Rusty.
I am not going to name names, but will tell you that Rusty’s and Duke’s sire was well known amongst pointers and has sired at least one dog that won Ames and that dog was from Georgia. If you know pointer lines and what was produced by Duke you can figure it out, a number of the health problems that were in that line showed up in both sides (I am not talking about LD, I don’t know where that came from).
I think I read that Rusty loved to retrieve so much that they could not keep him broke. Whether because of that or because he was simply black hearted I could not say, but both him and his brother were head cases and a lot of that came out in the pups.
Now how do I know this, well all I will say is that, I am original from Georgia.
Casey you need to turn off your computer, get a couple of dogs and get out into the real world, buddy it’s nice that you have an interest, but you can’t learn about dogs and field trialing sitting in a chair. Go out smell the fresh air play with some pups, life is too short to waste it in front of a screen.
I should think you would have the ability to obtain that yourself, being as you're a judge. Research is $50/hour, plus expenses if you'd like me to do it for you. No Google, though, I'm a Yahoo user.Joe Amatulli wrote:Well Jim it looks like I was wrong I honestly didn’t think that this was going to go over very well. I was told about some of what you posted, but not all. I will say again 70 to 80% of what the dog becomes is what you put into the dog.
The only thing that I would like to know is was it done to improve the breed or was it done to cheat?
CC my question has yet to be answered “what was Rusty’s win record”? I think since you are the Google guru you should be able to answer that.
JimJackson wrote:Well Joe thanks for the warning, but I am a big boy and can make a fool of myself just as well as anyone else can.
First Rusty’s pedigree has very little to do with fact. Rusty started life as a very big running, powerful derby and did get bred early, unfortunately many of the pups from the first two litters were put down because they became very aggressive when the turned a one year old. Eddy had a pointer by the name of Duke (I think that was his name and was a half brother to Rusty). In other words that pointer and Rusty had the same sire (a pointer). Eddy knowing that he needed to be careful about what got bred rarely allowed people to be present when they wanted to breed to Rusty. Almost all of Rusty’s breeding was done by his half brother, not Rusty.
I am not going to name names, but will tell you that Rusty’s and Duke’s sire was well known amongst pointers and has sired at least one dog that won Ames and that dog was from Georgia. If you know pointer lines and what was produced by Duke you can figure it out, a number of the health problems that were in that line showed up in both sides (I am not talking about LD, I don’t know where that came from).
I think I read that Rusty loved to retrieve so much that they could not keep him broke. Whether because of that or because he was simply black hearted I could not say, but both him and his brother were head cases and a lot of that came out in the pups.
Now how do I know this, well all I will say is that, I am original from Georgia.
Casey you need to turn off your computer, get a couple of dogs and get out into the real world, buddy it’s nice that you have an interest, but you can’t learn about dogs and field trialing sitting in a chair. Go out smell the fresh air play with some pups, life is too short to waste it in front of a screen.
Vision,Vision wrote:JimJackson wrote:Well Joe thanks for the warning, but I am a big boy and can make a fool of myself just as well as anyone else can.
First Rusty’s pedigree has very little to do with fact. Rusty started life as a very big running, powerful derby and did get bred early, unfortunately many of the pups from the first two litters were put down because they became very aggressive when the turned a one year old. Eddy had a pointer by the name of Duke (I think that was his name and was a half brother to Rusty). In other words that pointer and Rusty had the same sire (a pointer). Eddy knowing that he needed to be careful about what got bred rarely allowed people to be present when they wanted to breed to Rusty. Almost all of Rusty’s breeding was done by his half brother, not Rusty.
I am not going to name names, but will tell you that Rusty’s and Duke’s sire was well known amongst pointers and has sired at least one dog that won Ames and that dog was from Georgia. If you know pointer lines and what was produced by Duke you can figure it out, a number of the health problems that were in that line showed up in both sides (I am not talking about LD, I don’t know where that came from).
I think I read that Rusty loved to retrieve so much that they could not keep him broke. Whether because of that or because he was simply black hearted I could not say, but both him and his brother were head cases and a lot of that came out in the pups.
Now how do I know this, well all I will say is that, I am original from Georgia.
Casey you need to turn off your computer, get a couple of dogs and get out into the real world, buddy it’s nice that you have an interest, but you can’t learn about dogs and field trialing sitting in a chair. Go out smell the fresh air play with some pups, life is too short to waste it in front of a screen.
This all makes sense. In the mid 90's I was having a friendly discussion with Jeff Schick the owner of a HMK's Dandy Runaway Rusty about who was a better sire. I was lobbying for Beiers Evolution, and Jeff was lobbying for Rusty. Jeff's argument was that Rusty was a better sire because he was bred less than Jack. He based his opinion upon the difficulties that people had getting access to Rusty because of his owner.
Ridge-Point wrote:Vision,Vision wrote:JimJackson wrote:Well Joe thanks for the warning, but I am a big boy and can make a fool of myself just as well as anyone else can.
First Rusty’s pedigree has very little to do with fact. Rusty started life as a very big running, powerful derby and did get bred early, unfortunately many of the pups from the first two litters were put down because they became very aggressive when the turned a one year old. Eddy had a pointer by the name of Duke (I think that was his name and was a half brother to Rusty). In other words that pointer and Rusty had the same sire (a pointer). Eddy knowing that he needed to be careful about what got bred rarely allowed people to be present when they wanted to breed to Rusty. Almost all of Rusty’s breeding was done by his half brother, not Rusty.
I am not going to name names, but will tell you that Rusty’s and Duke’s sire was well known amongst pointers and has sired at least one dog that won Ames and that dog was from Georgia. If you know pointer lines and what was produced by Duke you can figure it out, a number of the health problems that were in that line showed up in both sides (I am not talking about LD, I don’t know where that came from).
I think I read that Rusty loved to retrieve so much that they could not keep him broke. Whether because of that or because he was simply black hearted I could not say, but both him and his brother were head cases and a lot of that came out in the pups.
Now how do I know this, well all I will say is that, I am original from Georgia.
Casey you need to turn off your computer, get a couple of dogs and get out into the real world, buddy it’s nice that you have an interest, but you can’t learn about dogs and field trialing sitting in a chair. Go out smell the fresh air play with some pups, life is too short to waste it in front of a screen.
This all makes sense. In the mid 90's I was having a friendly discussion with Jeff Schick the owner of a HMK's Dandy Runaway Rusty about who was a better sire. I was lobbying for Beiers Evolution, and Jeff was lobbying for Rusty. Jeff's argument was that Rusty was a better sire because he was bred less than Jack. He based his opinion upon the difficulties that people had getting access to Rusty because of his owner.
Were you able to see HMK's Dandy Runaway Rusty in person? I can only find one picture of him and he looks pretty clean to me. If what Jim is saying is true, then there is a very good chance that Dandy was half pointer. The same would be said for Koonas, Big Oaks Tiny Tim, Luke, and others. All those dogs look like Shorthairs to me with a pretty good roman nose. Then again pictures are only worth so much and I never saw any of these dogs in person. I have a hard time believing that a full pointer/shorthair cross wouldn't show it, all the ones I have seen are pretty obvious.
Did he look like he was half Pointer?Vision wrote:I saw Jeff's Rusty a lot. I trained with Jeff occasionally.
Ridge-Point,Ridge-Point wrote:Did he look like he was half Pointer?Vision wrote:I saw Jeff's Rusty a lot. I trained with Jeff occasionally.
I never said it was rocket science. I was just asking a question. Did I offend you?ElhewPointer wrote:Ridge-Point,Ridge-Point wrote:Did he look like he was half Pointer?Vision wrote:I saw Jeff's Rusty a lot. I trained with Jeff occasionally.
Did he look half GSP? For crying out loud. Haven't you ever seen a mutt that looked like a specific breed? There have been times i've said, "that's a nice looking Golden" just to hear, "Oh, he's half lab half golden". When you get two breeds that look so similar to begin with, im sure there are some dogs that looked like GSP's and some that looked like pointers. It's not rocket science.
No, not at all.Ridge-Point wrote:I never said it was rocket science. I was just asking a question. Did I offend you?
This is a recent thread that address this specifically.ElhewPointer wrote:So just in talking about the best GSP ever, I started doing some research. Well I came across a dog that has a lot of winning as of late, but it confuses the crap out of me. The Jimkath's Havoc dog that has just won 3 national titles in the last year seems to be a winner, but I guess I don't understand how the AKC will let the dog compete when they don't even know who the grandsire is. How is that even possible?
Sorry, I was just doing some looking on the dogs who are big winners. So, AKC will let him run but his national titles were AF????? I don't understand. sorry.ACooper wrote:This is a recent thread that address this specifically.ElhewPointer wrote:So just in talking about the best GSP ever, I started doing some research. Well I came across a dog that has a lot of winning as of late, but it confuses the crap out of me. The Jimkath's Havoc dog that has just won 3 national titles in the last year seems to be a winner, but I guess I don't understand how the AKC will let the dog compete when they don't even know who the grandsire is. How is that even possible?
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=29967&p=277370&hilit=AKC#p277370
I'm not sure if you have answered it, and don't want to step on toes, but who is in your mind? I am rusty, but almost an even split would be greif von hundshemerkogel.JimJackson wrote:Joe’s question about Rusty’s win record was a good question and suspect that Joe already knows that he only won, but a small hand full of championships.
So was Rusty one of the all time best GSPs …………….NO not even close. Sorry for bursting so many bubbles.
That's true, and I respect that since the thread is NOT called "Who do you think is the best GSP ever?"JimJackson wrote:Ahumphers unless you have seen every dog of all time, you can NOT answer this question. Now if you want to ask who was the top producer I am pretty sure that was Saddle with his get winning well over 600 stakes, the all time championship winner as I am sure you know was Tulli’s Scatback, I believe Flash Dance Jenny won the most nationals, Thunder was the only dog to win Boonville three years in a row and Clown was the only dog to win Eureka three years in a row, but to call any of these dogs the best ever is a statement made by someone of very little knowledge about dogs and GSPs as a whole.
He didn't look like the GSP's I had or was used to looking at, nuf said.Ridge-Point wrote:Did he look like he was half Pointer?Vision wrote:I saw Jeff's Rusty a lot. I trained with Jeff occasionally.
That's a stretch........................msrkennels wrote:The best gsp bitch was Nafc Annie's Little stinker, Joe knows it, its just hard for him to admit it.
Its his dog so of course he's going to say it was "the best". Or maybe he's just having fun. Idk, but its hard to shy away from Joe's dog's record. Insane is a good word for it.CHJIII wrote:That's a stretch........................msrkennels wrote:The best gsp bitch was Nafc Annie's Little stinker, Joe knows it, its just hard for him to admit it.
No disrespect meant to him at all. In fact she's in my Ruby's ped. Me thinks we need a new thread for Greatest GSP bitch ever. Any takers on starting it?ElhewPointer wrote:Its his dog so of course he's going to say it was "the best". Or maybe he's just having fun. Idk, but its hard to shy away from Joe's dog's record. Insane is a good word for it.CHJIII wrote:That's a stretch........................msrkennels wrote:The best gsp bitch was Nafc Annie's Little stinker, Joe knows it, its just hard for him to admit it.
You took the words right out of my mouth!Cajun Casey wrote:Oxton Minado's Inga von Greif.
Joe Amatulli wrote:Hey it’s the mouth from the south! Well James you know I sure did like that little bitch of yours, but her record was way short of the all time best 21 championship wins and 12 championship runner-ups. Regardless I would have taken her home in a heartbeat and would have won a heck of a lot more championships too. After all she was at disadvantage having been handled by such a poor handler.
You know what maybe she was the all time best considering the handy cap she was strapped with.
Love you baby, but you just keep on trying to catch me, maybe after I retire you may get a bit closer!
The King!