Pointer/GSP

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:49 am

There is always alot of talk about the shorthair being breed to a pointer. Does anyone think people could accually pull it offf today? I am sure their are poeple that do it but I bet not many that are well known. The problem with it is even if the DNA is not done what happens when someone buys a gsp and breeds it and all of a sudden you have a lemon colored pup or other disqualifying trait. Don't you think people would be pissed about this and it would come to light. I know I would cause it just ruined my dog for breeding. I think every person that owned one would have to be in on it but it would defeat the purpose. Lets say I want to campain a dog to win the national and I accually do it. I would want to better the breed with this dog and this maybe the reason I do it or maybe I want to stud this dog and get a pretty good amount of money doing it. This would not be possiable in either case if it were half pointer. So what would be the reason behind doing it in the first place? Bragging rights? That would be alot of trouble for bragging rights.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:07 pm

Just look at some web sites of different kennels and look at the heads, elbows, and body type of some of there dogs then compare them to your avitar dogs head and body type. There probably isn't pure pointer in the first 3 generations but you can tell there was a pointer there and by half way linebreeding they keep those traits dominant. How some of these people even sale pups with a straight face amazes me.

Don · Post by **Don** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:39 pm

I'm sure some do and I'm also sure more well known people than we'd like to think look the other way. How come we never discuss the rumors the Britt's are crossed with Setter's? I heard that one years ago.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:49 pm

Volraider,

I think you are letting supicion get in the way good reasoning. The "look" thing doesn't fly. I forget where I saw it but a couple of years ago they put up pictures of both breeds and had people pick which were which. Those that knew they could tell the difference failed just as badly as everyone else. And a couple of the "pointer crosses" were straight from Germany.

I am not saying it hasn't happened in the past but I will bet it was a very rare compared too the number of rumors that have floated around. The number one reason I have heard that you can tell is the white coloring but that has been pretty well dispelled.

The same rumors are out there about practically every breed going. And I guess my number one question would be what are they trying to gain.

Ezzy

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:18 pm

Yes, Iam sure it happens all the time amoung dog traders. Lots of hunters dont care if its half and half. Which I think is OK. But I would not want to witness them trying to REGISTER them . Lots of birds have been killed over a dog that was half pointer and the other half setter, and they had a name. They were called DROP. As long as folks dont try to reg these dogs thats their business. You know as well as I do , Lots of folks look for a BIRD DOG and could care less if it is REG>

SONNY

Don · Post by **Don** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:32 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but, isn't Ferrel Miller in the HOF?

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:38 pm

You know, I think that I was the one who started this about put a little more POINTER in your GSP if it doesent have a high head, Thats just POINTER people talk. I have GSP to and think the world of them. What really got me started was this thread about whos the TOP GUN GSP was DISASTER, and lots of folks knew that as soon as it was aired. Sorry if I pissed any GSP people off, Because I LOVE!EM as much as anyone. :roll: :roll: Sonny

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:54 pm

Ferrell Miller may be in the HOF but he ws in trouble and until he fapsy $600,000 in assessments , he is out of the dog business.

Wrong guy to put emphasis on.

Pepper

Rodger · Post by **Rodger** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:13 pm

Does anyone else have a copy of the early orange book titled “The New German Shorthaired Pointer” by C. Bede Maxwell? I thought many considered this book to be bible of sorts on GSPs. The author lived from 1901 – 1995 and published the first edition around 1953. In addition to this book she also wrote a few others on the sporting dogs.

I can’t quote chapter & verse, but I believe I read in “Origins of the breed” where the author states that just before 1900 the Germans were still actively crossing English pointers to produce some very notable (back then) dogs. I’d have to re-check the exact ref to dogs named, but one in particular was described as drawing a lot of attention because of it’s described “dish face”. This I remember. It was also mentioned that this particular animal went on to produce many more of it’s kind. One picture in the book featured a mostly white/liver patched and ticked dog that resembles the ones today.

Since the first GSP didn’t hit our shores until 1926 or so, it seems reasonable that the original Germans were just as unscrupulous in their breeding practices as any of modern era. That is, if you define trying to improve something as being unscrupulous.

If I’m slightly off on some of the dates then I stand corrected, but believe I’m very close.

What say the DK folks?

Rodger

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:16 pm

I know this is a little off key, But talk about Breeding. Did you know that the U.S never had their own Beef cattle breed til the 1950!s The FIRST american BEEF breed was SANTA GERTRUDIS which was developed through many breeding between BRAMAH and shorthorn. The final results turned out to be three eights BRAMAH and five eight short horn. The ranch that did this was KINGS RANCH in south TEXAS. I said that to say this. Very large kennels could possibly come up with their own BREED of DOG. It would take time and lots breeding data. Iam talking about POINTING DOGS.

Sonny

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:16 pm

Most who make the claims of cross breeding are either, people who went to a trial with their 90 pound show dog and got slaughtered, people who have never been to a trial, people who believe the GSP of 1950 was actually a 50 yard dog, people who believe that the only real GSP has a solid liver head, or people who know nothing of the conformation of the breeds, both EP and GSP. When one knocks a dog with a large blaze, but calls a dog with a liver head and dishface a GSP, we find our problem.

Trialers are the ones who pushed for all dogs to be DNAed prior to running at our AKC GSPCA Nationals, not the foot hunter or any other organization, including the GSPCA as a whole.

Many point fingers, produce dogs with lemon, brown, black, then bucket 'em, and pretend it didn't happen.

The GSP was produced by using the Spanish Pointer, German Pointer, and French Pointer, not the English Pointer as some point out incorrectly. However, there are unscrupulous breeders who breed a Honky Tonk Attitude dog and kill the bug eyed pups. Still, pointer bred into them!!

Heck, I've seen dishfaced Brits, Viszlas, Weims, khaki Weims, round eyed dish faced GWPs hunting and at trials. All breeds have a problem. First step is to educate the people of proper conformation of each breed and stop buying GSPs that are elbowed out, round eyed, cow hocked, round short eared, and YES, even snippy headed. Snippy is just as bad as dishfaced.

As long as winning is THE prerequisite for breeding to a male, and ignoring conformation is not considered, we have a problem.

However, after being chastised for my opinion, please know this is only my opinion and not a FACT.

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:23 pm

Hey trublue, How did you know that my pointer dog SLICK in my avtar was a little BUG EYED? Iam a little BUG EYED myself but my mother always loved me. :roll: :roll: :roll: Sonny

Rodger · Post by **Rodger** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:56 pm

From the American Pointer Club's site.

History of Pointers
Pointers, believed to be from Spain, were originally known as Spanish Pointers. These were a far heavier-cast dog than the Pointer we know today. These dogs appeared in Britain at the end of the War of Spanish Succession (1713), with British Army Officers bringing them back after the signing of the Peace of Utrect. Italian Pointers, which resembled the French Braque were introduced into England and crossed with the Spanish Pointer, producing the Pointer as we know it today.

Seems the GSP and Pointer extend from the same origins. Aint that a kick

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:02 pm

I am not a historian so this is only opinion. I think it would be tough to figure out all the crossing that made the GSP we have today. The breed started in the 1800's and the first dog didn't come to the states until 1925 or 1926. I have heard a lot of different breeds that may or may not have been used. From hounds to pointers. I guess when it comes down to it, I don't really care that much I am just happy with the end results.

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:31 pm

Arent you glad that we have what we have, nomatter how It came to pass. A BIG THANKS should go out to our FORFATHERS. Thanks

Sonny

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:39 pm

SONNY Why didnt this thread say GSP-POINTER insread of POINTER-GSP????????? Must have been a POINTER PERSON recon?

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:58 pm

All breeds of pointing dogs have changed in the last few decades. They all have been bred for more style and speed. Just look at the pointers Robert Wehle started with and what they became after yaers of line breeding.

I am not saying there aren't dishonest breeders out there but we should not asseume things. Just because someone has a successful breeding program that actually improves a line does not mean cross breeding was involved.

My grandmother always said 90% of all problems were caused by jealously. The older I get the more I agree with her.

bird · Post by **bird** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:15 pm

What would you do if you knew someone was doing it but couldn't prove it ? Would you speak up or would you stay quiet ? Would you rock the boat ?

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:22 pm

bird wrote:

What would you do if you knew someone was doing it but couldn't prove it ? Would you speak up or would you stay quiet ? Would you rock the boat ?

If you can't prove it, how do you know it is being done?

bird · Post by **bird** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:27 pm

Just go along with it... geezzzzzz

Lets say that the person told ya. You still can't prove it... its your word against theirs... but you still know the truth. What would you do ?

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:32 pm

Gotcha Bird. I am not touching this one. I got in enough trouble on the other topic.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:59 pm

bird wrote:

What would you do if you knew someone was doing it but couldn't prove it ? Would you speak up or would you stay quiet ? Would you rock the boat ?

If you know it to be a fact it's easy to prove provided the pointer is still alive. It would cost you a $500.00 bond with AKC to challenge the lineage. DNA is pulled from the offspring, claimed parents, and either it matches up or it doesn't. If you are proven correct you get your bond back and the breeder will most likely be finished forever; at a minimum they will be barred for a period of time and have to pay some hefty fines. CR

Wall's EP · Post by **Wall's EP** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:21 pm

It's funny when poeple say Ferrel's out of the dog business. He may not be able to reguisture any longer, but lots of people concider him one of the greatest breeders/ trainer/ handlers ever. I don't think anyone would turn down a little help from him, in training or breeding advice. Just because the FDSB doesn't want him around doesn't mean his not still going about his normal routine of training and developing the some of best FT dogs ever.

CW

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:55 pm

Most who make the claims of cross breeding are either, people who went to a trial with their 90 pound show dog and got slaughtered, people who have never been to a trial, people who believe the GSP of 1950 was actually a 50 yard dog, people who believe that the only real GSP has a solid liver head, or people who know nothing of the conformation of the breeds, both EP and GSP. When one knocks a dog with a large blaze, but calls a dog with a liver head and dishface a GSP, we find our problem.

Blake didn't some one fool you on another board with the picture of a gsp the other day! If your dogs are clean and look clean then good for you and your breeding program. Some of us know what a pointer looks like and what a shorthair looks like. We also know what a pointer/shorthair looks like. Why are you so defensive about these types of posts?

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:28 pm

For those of us not familiar with GSP's what is considered good conformation for the breed? How about a picture of the ideal dog?

I am not trying to start another pissing match. I grew up in the south and I was an adult before I knew there was anything other than pointers and setters. I just hope to learn something.

LuLu_01 · Post by **LuLu_01** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:12 pm

There is a board member on here that on another board made the comment that all white GSPS were fake,I won't mention who because he knows who he is.I'm surprised he hasn't joined this thread guess he knows he was safe there.

Never saw an all white GSP myself...My avatar dog was bred to an all liver dog. She threw a pup white with a solid head, couple specs of ticking and my personal favorite. He had a 12 o clock tail and someone who didn't know better would probably swear he had Pointer in him!

I can see how the rumors start...the litter was 8 pups, 5 liver...

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:25 pm

Ted,

Thanks, that was interesting. I noticed there are some fairly recent dual champions. It would seems that those breeders have done something right. The show ring pointers and setters I have seen might point a bird if it got in their way but could never be competative in the field.

Charles

LuLu_01 · Post by **LuLu_01** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:28 pm

Very interesting conversation because you hear the reverse as well. Some question the liver color origins.

No matter which situation, that's why we love GSPs because of the diversity. We all love our dogs.

I think everyone agrees on that.

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:33 pm

I have only seen a few GSP's and the one I liked best was black and white. He was a bird finding fool and looked good doing it. That shows how much I know.

bird · Post by **bird** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:44 pm

vzkennels wrote:Charles in my mind for show dogs 2 of those stand out & would be my ideal Show dog but in the field who knows might not even know what a bird was.Ch Gretchenhof Columbia River & Ch Lieblinghaus Snow Storm
Columbia River was the first & only GSP to ever go best in show at Westminster, the most prestigous dog show in this country untill a couple yrs ago a female GSP won it & at this moment I'm drawing a blank on her name.I never showed GSPS but use to raise & show dobes & Columbia River was being shown at that time,he was not only a very correct GSP conformation wise but a TRUE SHOW DOG.Probably only show people really knows what that means.

That would be Carlee. http://www.kanpoint.com/

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:49 pm

Wall's EP wrote:It's funny when poeple say Ferrel's out of the dog business. He may not be able to reguisture any longer, but lots of people concider him one of the greatest breeders/ trainer/ handlers ever. I don't think anyone would turn down a little help from him, in training or breeding advice. Just because the FDSB doesn't want him around doesn't mean his not still going about his normal routine of training and developing the some of best FT dogs ever.

CW

FM may be one of the best handlers, trainers, and breeders ever in the AF game but he's still a crook. When he got caught he had lots of options to make things right. He chose none of them. How he chose to handle things embarassed the heck out of the whole registry and nearly ruined a great many people who had invested heavily in his dogs. The American Field and FDSB did all they could finally to bend over backwards and help everyone out that was negatively affected by the fraudulent registrations but a great deal of damage was done.

It's sad that no matter how one does things professionally or personally as long as you are a winner there are those that will continue to sing your praises. CR

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:55 pm

bird wrote:
vzkennels wrote:Charles in my mind for show dogs 2 of those stand out & would be my ideal Show dog but in the field who knows might not even know what a bird was.Ch Gretchenhof Columbia River & Ch Lieblinghaus Snow Storm
Columbia River was the first & only GSP to ever go best in show at Westminster, the most prestigous dog show in this country untill a couple yrs ago a female GSP won it & at this moment I'm drawing a blank on her name.I never showed GSPS but use to raise & show dobes & Columbia River was being shown at that time,he was not only a very correct GSP conformation wise but a TRUE SHOW DOG.Probably only show people really knows what that means.
That would be Carlee. http://www.kanpoint.com/

Carlee's sire was actually a heck of a birddog and produced some really fine hunting dogs. I have a granddaughter of her sire and trained several more of his offspring that were all "real birddogs" and also looked pretty darn good. The bitch I have has been a really fine hunting dog as well and is producing great pups for the field. I'm probably going to keep one or two out of this litter we have out of My dog Moose bred to her this time and run them in some puppy and derby stakes next year. CR

LuLu_01 · Post by **LuLu_01** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:56 pm

Well,

For those of you that know my "Harry" story, breeders don't always stand behind their dogs or breedings. Please, noone here take offense. I'm glad when/if their caught because it is the breed that suffers. I keep my mouth shut when it comes to what I think in another thread of "Most Famous/best dogs"

Over breeding a dog should not make it famous. Just because it's name and line may be in many dogs may not be something good.

Wall's EP · Post by **Wall's EP** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:28 am

WildRose wrote:FM may be one of the best handlers, trainers, and breeders ever in the AF game but he's still a crook. When he got caught he had lots of options to make things right. He chose none of them. How he chose to handle things embarassed the heck out of the whole registry and nearly ruined a great many people who had invested heavily in his dogs. The American Field and FDSB did all they could finally to bend over backwards and help everyone out that was negatively affected by the but a great deal of damage was done.

It's sad that no matter how one does things professionally or personally as long as you are a winner there are those that will continue to sing your praises. CR

The story may read slightly different than I heard, but last I checked Wiggins were to blame for the mistake. No one was ruined, except Ferrel, even the Online pup I bought in May of 04 was registerable after some time. As for him not making things right, had he been to blame he would have. As for it being SAD people still praise him, tell me if that makes the dog less of a champion if their papers are incorrect, only to high nose FT people. Did the 5 National Champions he bred care who their mom or dad was? Did any of the hundreds of Major winners care? Was there more than one or was it a typo calling once "fraudulent registrations"? I think the AF tried to set an example with Ferrel and that caused the most embarrassment to themselves. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I think crook is a little steep when you were not involved in any way.

CW

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:15 am

I beleieve there are a person or two on this board who bought puppies and now can't be registered because of the parentage. To me that is getting hurt badly.

Ezzy

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:53 am

vzkennels wrote:Charles the next to last DC on that list belongs to SNIPS (Brenda Roe & Rick Hopkins) of Walnut Hill GSP Kennels but he is first & foremost a BIRD DOG.Snips belongs to this board & I'm sure you have read her posts.His show CH was harder then it should have been simply because of being WHITE.

Ted,

I have met Brenda and Rick. I went to a NSTRA trial last year where she ran and Rick judged. I knew they had some nice dogs. In fact I think Brenda placed a dog that day. I didn't know she was famous until I started reading this board.

She is a nice lady.

Charles

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:08 am

The story may read slightly different than I heard, but last I checked Wiggins were to blame for the mistake. No one was ruined, except Ferrel, even the Online pup I bought in May of 04 was registerable after some time. As for him not making things right, had he been to blame he would have. As for it being SAD people still praise him, tell me if that makes the dog less of a champion if their papers are incorrect, only to high nose FT people. Did the 5 National Champions he bred care who their mom or dad was? Did any of the hundreds of Major winners care? Was there more than one or was it a typo calling once "fraudulent registrations"? I think the AF tried to set an example with Ferrel and that caused the most embarrassment to themselves. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I think crook is a little steep when you were not involved in any way.

CW

Walls I've bred somewhere close to 1000 dogs since our first litter was born. I may not be perfect, but the registrations of every one of those pups was done accurately. Because of the number of dogs we raise AKC checks up on us frequently, spot checks the dogs, matches DNA etc. To date the only dog I've ever had DNA problems with is one that I BOUGHT.

The "breeder" was no help at all and only through great diligence on my part and the part of the owner of the original named stud dog were we able to straighten that one out. Myself and a dozen other people were hung out to dry for two years with unregisterable dogs and pups while we busted our butts to get the proper sire identified. It took HUNDREDS of hours and a heck of a lot of long distance, hundreds of dollars of DNA tests to finally get it done. That is only a drop in the swimming pool compared to all of those hurt by the Miller scandal.

The man/woman who signs the litter registration form or fills out the stud dog sheet is the one responsible. Part of what turned up in that investigation was that he signed off on breedings that supposedly occured when the dog was not even available to breed because he was on the road with Mr. Miller trialing. That's not a simple clerical error! Worse yet it turned out that several other breedings DNA did not match up and more people were hurt. Last I heard there were several litters for which the proper parentage could never be determined and those people will never be compensated properly.

I can guarantee you that if any of us who posts on this board got hung up on a similar DNA scandal we'd be pounced on like a dying calf in the middle of a pack of lions.CR

Don · Post by **Don** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:45 am

[quote="WildRoseCW[/quote]I can guarantee you that if any of us who posts on this board got hung up on a similar DNA scandal we'd be pounced on like a dying calf in the middle of a pack of lions.CR[/quote]

Field Trial Hall of Fame. Elected 1993. Maybe he should council Pete Rose?

How do you bring the dis-honor on a sport that he did and stay in the HOF?

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:50 pm

Don you know Pete Rose is a distant cousin of mine. It was great being related to such a hero when I was a kid. It was an equal tragedy when he turned out to be such a scoundrel. The worst thing is, if he'd simply apologize for his misconduct he would be in the hall of fame.

His achievments are notable and tremendous and can't be taken away from him but the stain of dishonor will always be the capstone of his career.

Nice analogy. CR

Wall's EP · Post by **Wall's EP** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:44 pm

WildRose wrote: Last I heard there were several litters for which the proper parentage could never be determined and those people will never be compensated properly.

If you have the list of affected litters I would sure be very interested in a copy. The pup I got out of OnLine in May of 04 was registurable after a couple months. That was the only case I heard of, but I know their was talks about a date needed to be set to keep the AF from going on witch hunts.

CW

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:47 am

Walls since I could care less about FDSB pointers I sure dont' have a list. Just what I've heard and read from people affected. The Online breeding was not the only one that turned up fraudulent and some of the the dogs that turned up in subsequent investigations today can't be registered because the proper parentage cannot be identified.

With just the Online scandal hudreds of people have been out thousands of dollars in total getting things straight and they will never be compensated for the time, trouble, effort or money they were out.

From a personal stand point I have no ax to grind. However having been through a similar situation with a dog I bought the reason I commented was because of you unfairly jumping on someone else for mentioning it.

As I said, while Mr. Miller is certainly one of the greatest trainers and handlers to ever come along as well as having bred some of the finest pointers in the country the capstone of his career will not be his achievments but his dishonor. Selling dogs with fraudulent papers makes you a crook, getting caught simply makes it public.

No one is well served by continuing the disucssion. CR

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:58 am

Walls,

Since you are interested in this subject and check the archives as one of our members posted everything that was happening while he was trying to register his dog. And the worse of it is he never got it registered the last I know.

When you spend money for a good puppy and then find out it can't be registered and the breeder will not do anything since it isn't his fault I think that is a serious offense that warrants serious remedies like maybe jail time. Its not any different than many other crimes of the same nature that result in the pokey.

Ezzy

Gun Dog Forum

Pointer/GSP

Pointer/GSP

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Re: "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone&am

Re: "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone&am