Bummed!

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:13 pm

I am a little bummed. I originally wanted to run my dog in Derby at the GWP Nationals that begin next week.

My dog has been in the ribbons at every field trial we have entered. She is currently the #1 puppy/derby Wire for at least the first half of 2007. But after talking with many people, giving her a long reinforcement history for chasing would make my job of steadying her that much harder. So I decided not to enter her as a derby at the Nationals and start the steadying process.

A friend just sent me the running order and I know my dog could have seriously whupped a$$.

Someone please tell me I made the right choice cuz my competitive side is having a breakdown.

dogirl

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:27 pm

I campaigned a dog to the #1 puppy one year. Travelled all over and hit every trial I could. Her last derby stake I only saw her six times in the whole brace - every time she was bringing me another bird she had picked up. The winning dog had one find in that stake and the rest of the placements were witheld. She was the most difficult dog I have ever had to deal with in steadying.

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:35 pm

Okay...Thanks!!!

I really needed that.

Post by **topher40** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:15 pm

If your dog would win every time out then why run the trial?

Thats why they have those things. The only thing they prove ( especially in the puppy and derby stakes) is who was better in that day. Only in a shooting dog stake do they come around with any type of consistency.

Dont fret, if the dog is as good as you say then there will always be next time/year!

Anyways you have all hunting season to have some real fun over her!

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:20 pm

A friend just sent me the running order and I know my dog could have seriously whupped a$$.

Don't know how much ya' play the game but I'd be cautious with public statements like this - might get pretty lonely around your trailer!! You gotta give the due respect to the dogs and handlers that do show up willing to put it all on the line - future consequences falling where they may. It's never fair to say "well, if Fido had ran he'd have seriously whupped a$$" when who knows what Fido may have done that day.

As far as to run or not to run - only you can make that choice. IMO, champion broke dogs are neither made nor destroyed in a day. You never know what the future holds for a bird dog - can be here today, gone tomorrow. I'd run him - then if he won, I'd be humble in victory without reference to seriously whuppin' everyone's a$$!

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:17 am

DG; that was the right decision. It takes a lot of courage to do that. I once had a dog put on my truck that was making a run for the retriever national derby championship. The dog was a confirmed sticker. I took him from the new owner under two conditions: 1) That he immediately be pulled from competetion and forego a run for the national derby championship. 2) That he not run in another trial until I said he was ready. We pulled him out of contention and I worked on him for a year solid. The next year we brought him out, made him a qualified all age dog in four trials and took an open all age 4th. It was the correct decision as was yours.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:39 am

If the dog was catching every bird and/or not holding its point, I'd put him on the shelf.
Otherwise...

larue · Post by **larue** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:22 am

not puttting a dog in a trial becouse the dog is not ready,or is going backwords is a smart thing to do,setting your self up as a target
is not.
I agree with doug,one event will not make or break a dog and if the dog has been chasing for awhile,and you have run a bunch of derbys
then I doubt one more run would make much a difference in his future steadiness work.
As you have made your dhoice to not run,put it behind you,and just get to work on finishing your dog,and get to the nationals and try to win the broke stakes.

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:04 am

DGFavor wrote:
A friend just sent me the running order and I know my dog could have seriously whupped a$$.
Don't know how much ya' play the game but I'd be cautious with public statements like this - might get pretty lonely around your trailer!! You gotta give the due respect to the dogs and handlers that do show up willing to put it all on the line - future consequences falling where they may. It's never fair to say "well, if Fido had ran he'd have seriously whupped a$$" when who knows what Fido may have done that

I think you misinterpreted my comment. It was not meant to be disreprectful or derogatory to the other dogs and handlers. I have never seen any of those dogs run and I know there will always be a better dog than mine. I am pretty realistic. However, I know my dog would have whipped it up pretty good. I think I can brag on my dog once in a while without it becoming a social indignity. If someone gets offended by it, then I think they take the game waaay to seriously IMO.

dogirl

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:19 am

phermes1 wrote:If the dog was catching every bird and/or not holding its point, I'd put him on the shelf.
Otherwise...

No...she was pretty consistent through all our trials. However, I had a friend that was not so lucky. I watched her dog go from pointing staunchly to not pointing at all and ripping out birds after a trial.

I do not want to go backwards in the training I have done so I chose to sit it out. I had pretty much gotten over it when my friend sent me the running order which bummed me out.

dogirl

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:32 am

I am one of the entries in the Derby, Wilsons Famous Amos...I would have loved taking you on!!!!

Now we'll never know!!!

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:37 am

I think you misinterpreted my comment. It was not meant to be disreprectful or derogatory to the other dogs and handlers. I have never seen any of those dogs run and I know there will always be a better dog than mine. I am pretty realistic. However, I know my dog would have whipped it up pretty good. I think I can brag on my dog once in a while without it becoming a social indignity.

Oh, absolutely, brag away! IME, though bragging usually occurs after you've accomplished something, not before - and especially, doesn't occur when you haven't even participated!

Not trying to argue with ya' - just offering advice as a guy that doesn't take the competition remotely as seriously as I do maintaining the friendships and comradery that are the root of why I participate!

That said, field trials are a competition and you can't fault someone for being competitive - I just learn to stay away from those folks who are there solely to whupp a$$!

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:01 am

It would be a service to dog owners to simply do away with the #1 Puppy and #1 Derby rankings. When it comes time to breed, no one pays any attention to what the dog did as a pup, they want to see adult performance. And those rankings only serve to draw in people who don't yet understand how a dog should be raised. Eighteen puppy wins do not equal a single broke dog placement.

My view is, if you want to run them in Puppy and Derby go ahead but quit as soon as you get the points, unless for some reason the dog needs some trial experience. If so, run it for a few times to get that experience and then quit. Puppy and Derby stakes are train wrecks waiting to happen, and sometimes you never really do get the problems worked out that they can create.

My .02.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:48 am

Ya did the right thing DG. Your right on the verge of being where you want to and entering could have backed up all you've been doing. Good call!

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:06 pm

snips wrote:I am one of the entries in the Derby, Wilsons Famous Amos...I would have loved taking you on!!!! Now we'll never know!!!

Grinning to myself!

The best piece of advice I've ever been given towards your question:
"A Derby does not a Champion make!"

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:33 pm

Now Dogirl, that I am over the crushing blow you hit me with

This is what I did. I ran very few P/D, because of wanting to avoid long term problems. Then this summer I broke him, so I will try to run him broke. I was not going to run him Derby again (as I have the pts) but decided to in the Nat'ls. I would not have entered him either if I had been in your shoes, because you would be sending definite mixed messages. It was a good move on your part, (now I might be able to win!)

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:41 pm

DGFavor wrote:Oh, absolutely, brag away! IME, though bragging usually occurs after you've accomplished something, not before - and especially, doesn't occur when you haven't even participated!

Not trying to argue with ya' - just offering advice as a guy that doesn't take the competition remotely as seriously as I do maintaining the friendships and comradery that are the root of why I participate! That said, field trials are a competition and you can't fault someone for being competitive - I just learn to stay away from those folks who are there solely to whupp a$$!

I hope your not making reference to me because you are wrong in your assessment.

I go to have fun, watch the dogs do what they were bred to do, and for the comraderie as well. Placing and winning is a nice perk to the whole game. And it is a game. If my dog gets around the course and does well what I have trained her to do, then I am more than happy. I have watched braces that took my breath away, and my dog wasn't in them. I am all for the best dog winning and I love to run my dog against dogs that kick butt.

If I was all about winning, I would have entered the dog and we would not be having these exchanges.

Again, I hope you do not judge me based on a comment that I feel was taken out context.

dogirl

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:44 pm

snips wrote:I am one of the entries in the Derby, Wilsons Famous Amos...I would have loved taking you on!!!! Now we'll never know!!!

Well...your not that far away. Maybe later when she is fully broke.

I hope you and Wilson kick butt!!

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:48 pm

snips wrote:Now Dogirl, that I am over the crushing blow you hit me with This is what I did. I ran very few P/D, because of wanting to avoid long term problems. Then this summer I broke him, so I will try to run him broke. I was not going to run him Derby again (as I have the pts) but decided to in the Nat'ls. I would not have entered him either if I had been in your shoes, because you would be sending definite mixed messages. It was a good move on your part, (now I might be able to win!)

I thought about doing the same, but I think she would have come unglued if another dog tried to steal point, etc. She is very competitive and MUST be the dog in front. Plus it took me a while to hash out a training plan based on all the options out there so I got a late start.

dogirl

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:49 pm

vzkennels wrote:I've never bet on a cat fight before but I know how I would have placed my money on that one.

SIGH!!!! :roll:

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:55 pm

I go to have fun, watch the dogs do what they were bred to do, and for the comraderie as well. Placing and winning is a nice perk to the whole game. And it is a game. If my dog gets around the course and does well what I have trained her to do, then I am more than happy. I have watched braces that took my breath away, and my dog wasn't in them. I am all for the best dog winning and I love to run my dog against dogs that kick butt.

Right on! Sorry if I took your initial post different than intended!

I once had a dog put on my truck that was making a run for the retriever national derby championship. The dog was a confirmed sticker. I took him from the new owner under two conditions: 1) That he immediately be pulled from competetion and forego a run for the national derby championship. 2) That he not run in another trial until I said he was ready. We pulled him out of contention and I worked on him for a year solid. The next year we brought him out, made him a qualified all age dog in four trials and took an open all age 4th.

Sounds good but you'll have a tough time convincing me that what may or may not have happened during 30 minutes on one day of the dogs life would have had any significant impact on how it performed at a minimum 1 year (525,600 minutes) later.

Getting to peak performance is a series of peaks and valleys - don't know anybody that manages to pull it off any other way.

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:08 pm

DGFavor wrote:Right on! Sorry if I took your initial post different than intended!

I realize now that I must be more careful about what I write because it is easy to take things out of context on a BB. So I apologize in advance for any further lack of clarification or open ended interpretation of any of my postings.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:25 pm

Your doing great DG, stay the course. as for betting money on one of our GDF girls, I will. Bet one win's and the other is a gracious looser! The next day the roles may change.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:34 pm

snips wrote:Now Dogirl, that I am over the crushing blow you hit me with This is what I did. I ran very few P/D, because of wanting to avoid long term problems. Then this summer I broke him, so I will try to run him broke. I was not going to run him Derby again (as I have the pts) but decided to in the Nat'ls. I would not have entered him either if I had been in your shoes, because you would be sending definite mixed messages. It was a good move on your part, (now I might be able to win!)

I may be wrong but I think I was told that those that are usually running a dog trying for that derby dog of the year usually kinda follow the same route that Brenda did. Get the points than break the dog out and continue running the dog in the derby stakes as a broke dog. I suppose there is a theory behind it but am not sure what it may be although I could probably guess what it is.

dogirl, if this would have been your approach than I would think things would have been different if you had wanted to run your dog at the Nationals. Much the same as Brenda is doing.

FWIW

briguyz71 · Post by **briguyz71** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:16 pm

I took no offense to what you typed. I took it as you are confident in a dog that you think will go far. Good luck with your pup. Maybe we will get a chance to meet one day. I have a wirehair that is a sister to Snips' Amos dog. Hope to get her involved in some venue.
Regards,
Bri
My 2 cents!

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:19 pm

You most definately made the right decision. Undoing all the bad habits that get created by glory hunting in Puppy and Derby stakes will set your goal of FC back by that much time it takes to get themessage across to your dog that we must STAND our birds...not bump them up chase them down and grab them! If you have gotten this far without those issues becoming a problem, consider yourself that much ahead of the game!!

Much better to wup A$$ in the adult stakes .....the future satisfaction of a job done right, crowned with a blue ribbon in hand will go far to overshadow your disappointment at holding off on that last Derby run now

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:02 pm

briguyz71 wrote:I took no offense to what you typed. I took it as you are confident in a dog that you think will go far. Good luck with your pup. Maybe we will get a chance to meet one day. I have a wirehair that is a sister to Snips' Amos dog. Hope to get her involved in some venue.
Regards,
Bri
My 2 cents!

Thanks...I would love to meet you and your dog someday. I noticed her pedigree has a lot of the same names as my dog's pedigree (Rawhides, Backwoods, & Dizzys, etc.).

Apparently Backwoods Flexible Flyer was one VERY prolific GWP.

dogirl

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:07 pm

Kiki's Mom wrote:You most definately made the right decision. Undoing all the bad habits that get created by glory hunting in Puppy and Derby stakes will set your goal of FC back by that much time it takes to get themessage across to your dog that we must STAND our birds...not bump them up chase them down and grab them! If you have gotten this far without those issues becoming a problem, consider yourself that much ahead of the game!!

Much better to wup A$$ in the adult stakes .....the future satisfaction of a job done right, crowned with a blue ribbon in hand will go far to overshadow your disappointment at holding off on that last Derby run now

Thank's Kiki's mom...I only have a few GWP friends down here and they are all going to Nationals for one thing or another, so I was feeling left out. But I had my reality check and now I am over it again (until they start calling me from Nationals to share news).

We WILL whup a$$ in the broke dog stakes...I am a true believer in the power of positive visualization.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:28 pm

I am clearly in the minority, but I can't believe you didn't enter!!! What were you thinking!?!?!?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:13 am

DG, I never ran a dog I didn't believe could win. If it had a glaring fault, it didn't run until it was fixed. Each and every time you walk to that line, you should believe your dog can win. If you don't, you've got things to work on. Don't look at your dog with rose colored glasses.

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:41 am

DG, if your friends are at the HT and/or FT tell them to look me up and say Hi. I am a GSP person with a Wirehair:) so do not know many in the Wire world. Deb Darby told me about the Nat'ls when I decided to give it a shot. I am running my Amos's brother, Zeus in Srs also, so I will be at both.

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:15 am

gonehuntin' wrote:DG, I never ran a dog I didn't believe could win. If it had a glaring fault, it didn't run until it was fixed. Each and every time you walk to that line, you should believe your dog can win. If you don't, you've got things to work on. Don't look at your dog with rose colored glasses.

Believe me...if she could, Jolee would take any opportunity to make me look stupid and run with it. That is why I am taking your previous advice, "train for the rediculous", and making that my new personal training mantra.

Jolee is like a lawyer who is great at finding the loopholes in the law.

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:32 am

snips wrote:DG, if your friends are at the HT and/or FT tell them to look me up and say Hi. I am a GSP person with a Wirehair:) so do not know many in the Wire world. Deb Darby told me about the Nat'ls when I decided to give it a shot. I am running my Amos's brother, Zeus in Srs also, so I will be at both.

My friends, Mike and Angie Johnson of Reece Kennels, are friends with Deb Darby, so I will tell Angie to have Deb introduce you. I know she has two of her girls entered in the hunt tests, but not the field trials. The only other people in Florida that I know personally that are going are Christi Chism & Tina Whitmore of Afterhours Kennels. They really just do conformation, although their dogs are personal hunting dogs. They just don't play the other games.

I was the only Wire that ran in the trials down here last season (at least the ones I went to).

I joined the GSP clubs so I know lots of GSP people down here, and have mostly run in their trials. I did a couple put on by the Brittany club and one put on by the Vizsla club as well.