When to Spay?

WiskeyJaR · Post by **WiskeyJaR** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:14 am

Should she have her first cycle or spayed before? Have read/heard both opinions, was curious what folks here thought?

Some say she will not "mature" properly if spayed before first cycle, other says she will keep her 'puppy drive" if spayed before cycle. Puppy Drive = intensity???

hubweims · Post by **hubweims** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:34 am

my vet says it's a different part of the psyche and will not effect prey drive or field work. but you need to talk to different vets in your area, and the one like the best (probably the one you are already using) is the one i would listen to. i spayed at 6 months and no problem with desire, maturity, or intensity.

beachgsp · Post by **beachgsp** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:17 pm

I spayed my little girl at 8 months. No problems what so ever. Just plan around the event. Not training swimming etc.

WiskeyJaR · Post by **WiskeyJaR** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:53 pm

Thanks folks...as far as Vets go, the one I have been using for the last 5yrs with my other dogs, never heard of a Munsterlander, Large or Small.
Guess thats what I get for picking an "off brand" breed...(chuckles)

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:04 pm

Vet schools and vets in general have been way too influenced by the HSUS and other groups who believe all dogs should be spayed and neutered as early as possible.

There are possible health complications with spaying, particularly with spaying early. If you (or your vet) hasn't raised a large number of dogs both in tact and spayed you really have no basis to determine how it will affect their natural development.

There is an alarmingly higher rate for tendon and ligament damage in spayed versus non spayed females. There is also a much higher rate of urinary incontinence and bladder infections in spayed vs. in tact females because of the laxity of the ligaments that close off the ureter. The laxity occurs because the hormone balance is not right due to the spaying. Of course to solve the incontinence issue vet's can prescribe a drug that your bitch will then be on for life to tighten up that laxity.

Look up the term "secondary sex charictaristics" in reference to higher mammals and do some reading.

I don't and won't spay a female until the first heat cycle after she is two years old. By then most of the secondary sex characteristics both physical and pshycological are in place.

I don't buy into the arguments for lowered chances of uterine, ovarian, and breast cancer by spaying early either. When you reduce your odds from 1/1,000,000 to 0/1,000,000 how much have you gained? CR

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:48 pm

Well said WildRose. I couldn't agree more.

MOOSE · Post by **MOOSE** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:27 am

You may also want to take into consideration what you are planning to do with your dog. Is you dog going to be your stay around home dog and not a hunting or sport dog? If so spay away. If you are planning on using her for any kind of sport whether it be hunting, agility, dock jumping, fly ball etc. wait til two. There has been a lot of discussion on this on other forums I am on and general concensus has come to if the dog is going to be a doggie athlete wait! This way they devolop correctly, have as strong of bones, ligiments etc as possible and the risks are not high at all if you wait for the things like cancer.

markerdown · Post by **markerdown** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:12 am

+1 for CR's advice, and I have the proof to back up what problems an early spay/neuter can do..............markerdown

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:13 am

I agree. I don't think there is ever a reason to spay or neuter early unless it would be some medical condition that leaves no option. It doesn't matter what the dog will be doing as it is a health issue more than anything.

Ezzy

WiskeyJaR · Post by **WiskeyJaR** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:37 am

Thats something I hadnt thought of before..."preformance from dog".
As I have said before, this is my frist hunting dog after a life time of compainon mutts

And then spayed more for pregnancy then any other reason

I am finding there are lots of "little" things that I just took for granted with/on my other dogs that need a little more 'thought" put into them now.

Equismith · Post by **Equismith** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:40 am

I was going to pose the same question but searched the forums first. Glad to see these answers and concerns.

I believe I'll wait for my Brit.

jwenorthpark · Post by **jwenorthpark** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:45 pm

we spayed our female before her first heat, to our everlasting regret. she has an almost permanent infection now that vets we've since switched to attribute to the operation.

so +1 to the majority opinion here.

MOOSE · Post by **MOOSE** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:36 pm

ezzy333 wrote: It doesn't matter what the dog will be doing as it is a health issue more than anything.

Ezzy

My point with saying that if the dog is going to be any sort of canine athlete is to wait as there is research that has been done that shows the earlier spaying of dogs(male and female) result in health issues in the future for these canine athletes. More brittle bones, sometimes longer/taller dogs that put stress on the body etc. So in turn it does end up being in the long run a health issue as well. So what the dog will be doing in the future is an important part of the equation as well.

Equismith · Post by **Equismith** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:50 pm

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

gwgdog66 · Post by **gwgdog66** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:26 pm

I agree with Charlie and Markerdown. My oldest female had a belly button hernia when I first got her. It kept getting bigger and bigger. She had her first heat cycle at 9 months. So a month after the cycle ended I had the hernia fixed and a spay done at the same time. She developed a UT infection, and has accidents now when she gets excited. If not for the hernia problem I would have waited.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:15 pm

Moose,

You are saying the same thing I did. It is a health issue and because it is it effects every dog no matter what they are doing or going to do.

Ezzy

hubweims · Post by **hubweims** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:32 pm

well, with all that is said, and documented i wish i would've found gdf before i got my dogs. the documentation that i read earlier today is saying the same thing these guys are. i did what my vet recommended, and thankfully neither of my dogs have had any major problems. i do feel as if i might have dodged a bullet. however, i did experience a little uti issue for a bit with my female. my vet clinic has 5 vets in it. at one point one of them was wanting to put her on a high dose of estrogen to throw her into a false heat even being spayed. the other vets wanted to try one more week of antibiotics as they felt the antibiotic was working but hadn't held concentration level high enough completely knock it out. none of the vets ever mentioned that this was from spaying or spaying early. after reading documentation i believe now that it may have been. anyways, i didn't do the estrogen and the antibiotics knocked it out. the vets chalked it up to not enough fluids and being kenneled and holding it. sounds like i may in the market for a new vet next week. anyways, thanks GDF!! you have found ways to educate me yet again. next time i will wait so my advice is to wait. do what wildrose suggested and read the documentation. just google it and you can read multiple studies done in dogs, cats, horses, and even goats.

gwgdog66 · Post by **gwgdog66** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:53 am

hubweims wrote: i wish i would've found gdf before i got my dogs. the documentation that i read earlier today is saying the same thing these guys are

Me too hub. This forum has a great knowledge base. I have two 8 month old GSP pups, and I'll not have them spayed or nutered until they are at least 2 years old.

MOOSE · Post by **MOOSE** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:05 pm

Ezzy-
No problem. I wasn't sure if you were agreeing or not..

That is why message boards are so hard. you can't see or hear the other person.

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:01 am

Spot on advice from CR! +1 here too. AS a breeder I rebate back $100 of the purchase price of the pup when the spay/neuter certificate is sent in to me....

HOWEVER I strongly advise them to wait until after the dog has come to full and complete sexual maturity ( past the first "real" heat cycle in a bitch...as some babies often cycle in between 7 and 14 months silently or they don't remain in estrus for the full 21 -23 days that first time.) I advise that the boys not be neutered until at LEAST after 16 months, preferring the 24 month mark of age.

Besides the urinary incontinence issues and likelihood of tendon/ ligament damage, those hormones are also responsible for signaling the growth plates to close ( making for a much taller dog !!) and the coat to stay hard and glossy. In BRITS, an altered dog will often will have a change of hair coat from silky and smooth to wispy/ cottony.

Spaying/neutering DOES NOT affect the natural prey drive, intensity or highstyle of the hunting.

Equismith · Post by **Equismith** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:18 am

Thanks Helen.

I was contemplating the 14 month time frame for Libby. I may wait a full two years.

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