Impact of fuel price on hunting/testing/trialing

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:31 am

On the way back to the office this morning, I saw diesel was $3.50 per gallon.

I wonder what the trend of rising fuel costs is going to do to hunting, testing and trialing?

For example, on my recent hunting trip, we drove over 2700 miles with a fuel cost of over $500. The jump in diesel cost would have pushed it over $600 I think.

$600 in fuel for something that's for my entertainment starts to get on my nerves.

What do y'all think the trends are? More testing? More walking trials? Less "big" hunting trips?

Best regards, Greg J.

schultz's honor · Post by **schultz's honor** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:08 pm

smaller trucks

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:40 pm

We have started car pooling to NSTRA trials and splitting the fuel costs.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:49 pm

For our local trials, it doesn't make much difference. We're not exactly heading out of state on a whim anymore, I can tell you that much!

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:58 pm

do the letters BS stand for anything
It is total BS...gas companies got away with a HUGH LIE when katrina hit and keep making up BS

Funny how the more they push and make E85 available the higher the prices go...E85 upon further information requires more fuel to make and transport then it is worth plus the fact that it takes more of that to produce the same amount of power ie ounce per ounce as regular gas

The only shortage is the increase in the oil companies over all profits

We ahve thought about a gas powered truck but over all we would be spending more on fuel as i don't think there is a gas engine which can pull what we tow when we are on the road for 2 plus months at a time

I think the oil companies will single handly stagnate the economy...average family will not beable to afford to get to work anymore

between the gas companies and insurance compnaies one can't afford to eat or live anymore

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:51 pm

It has impacted my hunting this season. I cancelled my plans this weekend because gas has gone up $0.15 in a week and since I am still paying for my SD trip last week that was too much. I refuse to cancel my plans for an extended weekend this weekend, but will probably be very conservative on my spending in other areas.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:05 pm

I was going to buy a used motorhome to hunt out of, but gas creeping toward $4.00 a gallon makes a 8 mpg vehicle hard for me to convince myself to purchase. Round trip to ND at $4.00/gallon would cost about $1500.00 for fuel, probably burn another $200.00 wile Im up there.

$1500.00 fuel in amotorhome ( its still over $800.00 in my van)
$100.00 license

$200.00 food I could use a diet

its starting to get pretty pricey.

Wonder where it will be next fall :roll:

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:56 pm

You know what really s##@%cks? There is no shortage of oil.
Venezuala and China are drilling off shore in areas that our country won't let our fuel companies drill. This oil scam is just that a scam. The oil companies are looking to the future as to what they beleive will be an unstable market and supply.

Then we all need fuel and find a way to pay for our hobbies, work etc. So they find out that we will pay the additional costs. It would be nice if we could realistically affect the cost of fuel by our actions.

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:10 pm

bobman wrote:but gas creeping toward $4.00 a gallon makes a 8 mpg vehicle hard for me to convince myself to purchase. :roll:

Is gas really that high in GA?? Its only about 2.75 a gallon here and seems to get cheaper the further upstate (and closer to GA) I drive. Gas is always cheaper in Clemson than it is in the lower state whenever I up there for football games. :roll:

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:18 pm

My fuel costs to drive to the nationals in Kansas was $400 and the tank was near empty on the motorhome when I got home. The total cost for the nationals with the motorhome, fuel, food, calcutta entries to run 2 dogs in 3 stakes. 1 open gun dog, amateur and one futurity, that is a lot of money.

Cost for local hunting we wil just split up but it will still be pretty stiff.

Pepper

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:27 pm

Those of you looking at the oil companies are looking in the wrong place. Enviromentalist are our biggest problem in this country. We can't drill and we can't build refineries. World demand is what is holding the oil prices up along with the scare factor of a mid-east war.

Who gets rich off of gasoline? Our government! The liberals want to tax the oil companies but they wouldn't consider lowering the taxes which today amount to more than .50 cents on the gallon just in federal taxes.

We can't build coal fired plants because of global warming and we can't build nuclear plants because of the excessive regs raising the cost out of reason and we can't put up wind farms where the Kennedy estate can see them because that is where they like to sail.

What does that leave us?

Ezzy

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:30 pm

mtlee wrote:
bobman wrote:but gas creeping toward $4.00 a gallon makes a 8 mpg vehicle hard for me to convince myself to purchase. :roll:
Is gas really that high in GA?? Its only about 2.75 a gallon here and seems to get cheaper the further upstate (and closer to GA) I drive. Gas is always cheaper in Clemson than it is in the lower state whenever I up there for football games. :roll:

I can tell you that in Florida diesel is going for about $3.20 at the moment. Last couple of weeks it's just been skyrocketing!

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:37 pm

phermes1 wrote:
mtlee wrote:
bobman wrote:but gas creeping toward $4.00 a gallon makes a 8 mpg vehicle hard for me to convince myself to purchase. :roll:
Is gas really that high in GA?? Its only about 2.75 a gallon here and seems to get cheaper the further upstate (and closer to GA) I drive. Gas is always cheaper in Clemson than it is in the lower state whenever I up there for football games. :roll:
I can tell you that in Florida diesel is going for about $3.20 at the moment. Last couple of weeks it's just been skyrocketing!

Yea, I was thinking of gas, not diesel. I drive a gas truck, so I don't keep up w/ diesel prices. I'll have to check them out next time I fill up.

GoodTime GSP · Post by **GoodTime GSP** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:40 pm

Ditto on the Car Pooling. We do the same around here. 4 Guys, 5 Horses, 11 dogs, two trailers(horse trailer pulling a dog trailer) and a pick up truck = one heck of a "Good Time" . Its not pretty to see but it sure helps the wallet.

Went by myself this weekend.

Fuel $120, Cost of Hotel $130, Cost of entering our dog for two events $80, Cost of two new blank pistols for the boys $64. Cost of Food for the weekend $47.

Watching both my 4 year old and 6 Year old handle our dog to a total of 12 broke finds and a stop to flush in two days under judgement

PRICELESS................

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:44 pm

Matt gas is bumping $3.00 a gallon now, I was just speculating, it was under a$1.00 a gallon 4 years ago here.

and Ezzy is 100% correct

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:50 pm

bobman wrote:Matt gas is bumping $3.00 a gallon now, I was just speculating, it was under a$1.00 a gallon 4 years ago here.

and Ezzy is 100% correct

Gotcha, I remember when it was 80-something cents a gallon when I first started driving, but that was 8 yrs ago

schultz's honor · Post by **schultz's honor** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:24 pm

My hunting has been limited to hunting within just a few miles of home this year, although I am planning a couple of Iowa hunts over the holidays. (family lives in central Iowa)

Willie Hunter · Post by **Willie Hunter** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:37 pm

I’ve been laid up due to hernia surgery since the day before chukar season, October 12th. It has saved me a bunch of money on diesel; I think I would rather have the option to spend the money on fuel.

nj gsp · Post by **nj gsp** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:44 pm

I just filled my pickup for $3.15/gal for diesel - and that was the cheapest in town. In fact, it wasn't even my town, as I had to drive 7 miles to get there.

I still took two trips to Maine this year, and with a 40 something gallon tank in the old 'burble it's costing over $120 per fill up. Diesel was $3.17 up there.

Which brings me to the most irritating thing of all - with fuel prices at $3 a gallon or more, why the *!@T$ do the gas stations have the pumps set to shut off at $50? or $75? WTF??? At a Mobil station in NH it shut off when the pump hit $48. It took three swipes of my card to get the tank full.

Ahhrrrgggghhh!!!

JessW · Post by **JessW** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:00 pm

ezzy333 wrote: What does that leave us?
Ezzy

cellulosic ethanol. That's ethanol that could be brewed from things like corn stalks, straw, wood chips — things we normally throw away.

from what I understand, we have enough of this waste to produce large quantities of fuel to sustain our use and you don't have to worry reprecusions of trying to use corn.....

I think the first refinery will be in GA, we just need companies that are willing to make the very large investment in additional refineries.

Don · Post by **Don** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:00 pm

Well I filled up with diesel two weeks ago here in Central, Ore. $3.55 a gal!

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:07 pm

NJ GSP wrote: Which brings me to the most irritating thing of all - with fuel prices at $3 a gallon or more, why the *!@T$ do the gas stations have the pumps set to shut off at $50? or $75? WTF??? At a Mobil station in NH it shut off when the pump hit $48. It took three swipes of my card to get the tank full.

Ahhrrrgggghhh!!!

That is a great question. I wish I knew because the same thing has happened to me a few times. It is really annoying!

Danro · Post by **Danro** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:57 pm

A couple of weeks ago, a gas station up here seemed to be threatening to go to 2.00. it's at about 2.50 though.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:27 am

NJ GSP wrote: Which brings me to the most irritating thing of all - with fuel prices at $3 a gallon or more, why the *!@T$ do the gas stations have the pumps set to shut off at $50? or $75? WTF??? At a Mobil station in NH it shut off when the pump hit $48. It took three swipes of my card to get the tank full.

That's driven by the credit card company. Some stations implement it for them, some do not.

I was happy when I found out how to trick the pumps at the local Wal-Mart to ignore its $75 limit.

Best, Greg J.

nj gsp · Post by **nj gsp** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:24 am

Greg Jennings wrote:
I was happy when I found out how to trick the pumps at the local Wal-Mart to ignore its $75 limit.

Best, Greg J.

Are you going to share?

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:34 am

Greg Jennings wrote:
NJ GSP wrote: Which brings me to the most irritating thing of all - with fuel prices at $3 a gallon or more, why the *!@T$ do the gas stations have the pumps set to shut off at $50? or $75? WTF??? At a Mobil station in NH it shut off when the pump hit $48. It took three swipes of my card to get the tank full.
That's driven by the credit card company. Some stations implement it for them, some do not.

I was happy when I found out how to trick the pumps at the local Wal-Mart to ignore its $75 limit.

It's another fraud prevention measure they take. But still - it's pretty "bleep" annoying.
First, it pisses me off that most diesel pumps out there are NOT pay at the pump - what, if you drive a diesel, you're supposed to pretend it's 1988?!?
Second - the ones that do have a card swiper go to a max of $75, which at the current prices will get me to 3/4 of a tank MAYBE.

And yes, YES, please share this trick of yours!!!

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:02 am

I am kind of getting off track of the posted subject a little and won't expand any more than this.
We need to get those out of office that restrict our ability to be self sufficient. The problem is as a country we have accepted the high prices so the gas companies understand we will pay, so even if they get the refineries and do more drilling, I believe the cost will not drop much.
Although, I do completely agree that the enviromentalist are the catylist for the high prices. I do believe the oil companies are taking advantage of the situation that the enviromentalist have created. I know it is not hte gas station owners that are the cause. I know one who was grossing 13 cents a gallon now it is 6 cents a gallon. Not much profit there.

And here is a conspiracy theroy that is a little paranoid. I beleive that Venezuala, China, and OPEC are trying to find a way to slow down the great economic machine that is the US.

Secondly, from what I understand ethanol takes more energy to produce than actually using the oil. In addition, the increase in the size of crop lands has an effect on habitat. Because it is now more finacially benificial for crop farmers to plant their lands instead of getting the CRP money. I don't blame them. We all need to make money when we can. I would do it my self to some degree.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:28 am

Do you guys drive your big diesel trucks all the time or just when you're towing?

I picked up a little used 4 cyl. gas sipper back in June that I drive everywhere. My durango sits in the driveway except when I need to transport more than 2 dogs or take the horse somewhere. It's nice to fill up the tank for under $25 and be able to drive over 300 miles on that tank. It literally cuts my fuel costs in half for everyday driving and will keep 15k miles a year off my tow vehicle.

I dont really look at field trialing as a choice. It may have started as one, but that's all over after that first ribbon. It's more like a passion, a compulsion, an addiction (a sickness?

). I'll continue to cut costs elsewhere to make sure we can afford to get to trials.

That's not to say it wont eventually help decide which trials we go to, and we may wind up staying local and entering an off breed trial instead of traveling farther to run in a breed trial, but I can live with those kinds of choices. But then I can run 3 breed trials and probably 6 off breed trials every season without leaving a 100 mile radius of my home.

nj gsp · Post by **nj gsp** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:47 am

Yeah, my 2500 HD Duramax diesel is my daily driver. When I figure out how much it would cost me to keep a third car, it ends up being a lot more than just driving my truck every day.

Although I wouldn't mind a 1979 Porsche 930 Turbo as my daily driver...

AT2 · Post by **AT2** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:06 pm

I just sold my Honda Civic and got a Subaru Outback, It should haul the dogs and my stuff back an forth to the field and my carcass back and forth to work plus its a 6 cylinder with 28 to 30 Hwy, about 4 to 6 mpg less than the Civic. Not a bad trade off for the versatility i gained.

nj gsp · Post by **nj gsp** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:17 pm

When Tesla Motors comes out with a SUV, I'm buying one...

schultz's honor · Post by **schultz's honor** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:30 am

Ya know, I see a lot of posts here complaining about the high price of diesel. I understand that diesel is extremely high priced, but how many on this post truly need to drive diesels?
What I have seen with my experience with NAVHDA, is there is a lot of the members driving these huge crew cab diesel dualies, to pull a 500lb dog trailer. Isn't that a bit of over kill? Does it take a diesel to pull a dog trailer or is it a status thing.
I make this observation and comment after I just bought a new Dodge crew cab. (not a diesel, but does have a Hemi)

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:41 am

Good point. I drive a diesel van because I have a camper and wanted something that could pull it with ease. Also because gas vans generally get really piss-poor gas mileage.
While diesel costs more, I also get more mpg, so I'm either breaking even or coming out ahead across the board.

I complain about diesel prices simply because that's what I drive. If I drove a gas vehicle, I'd bitch about gas prices.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:29 am

I don't buy the price of gas is because of environmentalist arugument. NIMBY's have as much if not more to do with the lack of refineries than environmentalists. The federal air regulations have gotten weaker not stronger with this administration so it would be easier for oil refineries to get the necessary permits. Go to a public meeting where and ethanol plant is proposed the largest opposition is often from the surrounding neighbors and other NIMBY's. Sprawl is a big reason it is becoming tougher to find suitable land and I can guarantee you an environmentalist doesn't like sprawl.

Even if they started building oil refineries and drilling off the coast of Floriday, Alaska, and Wyoming today it would be years before that oil made it's way to the gas tank. Now when you say the environmentals are the ones to blame for stopping the drilling years ago and if they started drilling earlier the oil would be ready for cars now look at who played large roles in stoping the drilling. Jeb Bush was against drilling by Florida and Cheney wasn't a fan of the idea in Wyoming. These guys aren't exactly what I'd consider environmentalists.

For the arugument that the Gov't is making the money, why are we giving larger subsidies to oil companies when they are making record profits?

My feeling is gas is high because it can be and we won't stop using it. Until there is a viable alternative, which I don't believe ethanol is, then gas will probably just continue to increase in price.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:30 am

I can tell you what worries me most of all - we usually get a break in gas prices around this time of year - instead it's skyrocketing. We haven't even hit the holiday season yet.
$4 a gallon is a very distinct possibility in the very near future.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:35 am

Have already seen diesel at 3.85

nj gsp · Post by **nj gsp** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:19 am

Here in the Northeast US, diesel prices are almost always substantially lower than gas in the summer, but because of the demand for home heating oil in the fall and winter it's usually higher during the winter months.

I like diesels because they are more reliable, get better fuel economy, and they last longer. Add on the fact I have a boat, landscape trailer, and tow a backhoe with it and a gas truck won't do. I get around 19 mpg pulling my boat, 18 with the trailer, and 16 with the backhoe.

I had a 454SS suburban that got anywhere from 6-14 mpg. 6 towing something, and 14 highway. I sold it after 3 months. Our diesel suburban gets 19-20 mpg highway.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:24 pm

I have a diesel because I can. I can afford it and I like it.

I have not bitched about prices yet, but I am beginning to wonder why the price of oil per barrel is darned high. Speculation- and nothing more.

Did I mention I tow horses for field trialing??? Pleasure riding??? I put TONS of miles on my truck and diesels age better.

Not that I am making excuses, but don't knock it til you've tried it.

Oh yeah, when it gets really nasty - I am going BIO DIESEL BABY!

fennec1 · Post by **fennec1** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:42 pm

The difficult part with gas prices (or should I say rising prices) is that there are many factors in play.

You have limitations on refineries (when was the last time a new refinery was built in the states) - you've got environmental group, the not in my backyard folks, and other parties interested in stopping them from being built. Even if you are pumping 30% more oil than last year, with refinery capacity at 90% or so, you can't refine the extra.

There are also many different requirements in fuel blends that can vary from state to state and even within a state (making it difficult to supply from other areas). Oil companies have to be much more accurate at estimating demand for an area and cannot just turn on the switch to make more if they underestimated. Supply of available gas decreases with high demand = high $$$

Fuel taxes (both federal and state). Food for thought - oil company profits are about equal or just under the amount of tax revenue generated from the sale of said oil...

Increasing demand for oil (especially from China and other industrializing nations) - this coupled with little or no increase in supply = increase in $$

As far as corn based fuels - drop the subsidies that keep the price artificially high (by keeping supply low) and see if becomes a worthwhile supply. If a company can make more money either from higher profit margins or increased volumes - they are going to do it.

As people choose different vehicle, limit trips, carpool to events, etc. on a large scale, the overall demand for gas will drop and if the supply remains constant, so will the price. It would be interesting to see how many gallons are of gas are sold at various price points for a certain area.

The $50 or $75 cutoff point is a hold that is placed on your CC or debit card when you first start the transaction. Hence, say you had $45 in your checking account, but should only cost you $30 to fill up - you're probably going to get an overdraft because of the $50 hold. Many service stations I've seen, keep the initial $50 hold, just automatically repeat it once you've hit $50 and the pump continues uninterrupted.

Me, I ride a motorcycle most of the time and take my truck only when I need too (fun too).

JessW · Post by **JessW** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:38 pm

Grange wrote:My feeling is gas is high because it can be and we won't stop using it. Until there is a viable alternative, which I don't believe ethanol is, then gas will probably just continue to increase in price.

I heard a story recently about cellulosic ethanol. That's ethanol that could be brewed from things like corn stalks, straw, wood chips, peanut shells —things we normally throw away and are waste products that America and other developed countries have an abundance of. Using this type of ethanol would solve the land issue and too much corn production and is better all around for the environment. Link is below....IMO it was pretty interesting, I'm no expert though.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=16019184

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:43 pm

The first plant is already built. And I think everyone agrees that if ethanol is to last then it will be mde from cellulose. This is not new.

Ezzy

JessW · Post by **JessW** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:53 pm

News Source "National Public Radio" 11/05/07

"Georgia Plant Is First for Making Ethanol from Waste"

"A company called Range Fuels in Georgia is scheduled to break ground Tuesday on the world's first plant for making cellulosic ethanol."

was news to me, but again, I'm no expert.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:49 am

Hopefully Toyota and Honda will be bringing their diesels over here in 08,

my diesel car gets 52-57 mpg

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:45 am

I understand that diesel is extremely high priced, but how many on this post truly need to drive diesels?

Well.......let's see....30K miles in 8 1/2 months, 15 dogs, 3 horses and 8- 10 trials in a season ( and THAT is staying close to home, barring of course the occasional trip for a special event such as Nationals or Futurities)

...yes...we NEED that 2500 Duramax Diesel. They are made to take the stress of hauling and will go the long haul distance over a gasoline engine every time.

Mine is a daily driver also. But that is a choice that is based soley on our finances right now. I'd rather put the money into other needed things like my new kennels, new pergo flooring in the farm house and a second bathroom!

Over the Hill · Post by **Over the Hill** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:00 am

Ezzy said:

Those of you looking at the oil companies are looking in the wrong place. Enviromentalist are our biggest problem in this country.

If we just had an open season on bunny and tree huggers for a year or two, there's enough oil and gas in Alaska and off shore to bring fuel costs down to about $1.50, from what I've read, and still leave the oil companies their profit. And think of the fringe benefits!

nj gsp · Post by **nj gsp** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:58 pm

What I read was a little different: the reason that none of the big oil companies are drilling any new land based wells in the Continental USA is because there is nothing left. The only remaining production is low yield wells. The big companies are only drilling offshore, and in Malaysia, or Indonesia, or some other place that ends in "sia".

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:14 pm

And they are drilling there because they can't drill in Alaska or off shore. Mean while the companies from the "sia" countries are drilloff shore in the gulf where we can't. Just doesn't make much sense.

Ezzy

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:44 am

I swear I heard somewhere that Alaska had the potential to hold as much oil reserves as the Middle East.

In either case, as a Florida resident, I'll say that I hardly run across anyone that would have a problem with drilling off the coast of the state. The only people really standing in the way are the hardcore environmentalists; IMO, the general population is cool with it.
I know the fishermen and spearfishermen support it - oil rigs are EXCELLENT fishing spots!

jwenorthpark · Post by **jwenorthpark** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:29 am

I've got a couple of things to add here:

This has already been mentioned, but BIODIESEL, especially for someone willing to make a minimal investment (a few hours reading, $1000 for the parts if you've got a little ingenuity going for you -- I'm making mine for almost free from scavenging) will make a processor that can take 50gal batches of waste oil and turn it into fuel that most any diesel can burn. We have a '90 landcruiser with a Cummins 4cyl conversion that will do 24mpg and pull whatever the heck you want it to, and it's running the bio just fine. I calculate that, after my investment in parts and time is paid off, I'll be producing for around 0.90/gal.

The second point I'd like to mention is the ridiculous absence in American markets of fuel efficient diesels that are readily available in literally every single other global market used by major auto manufacturers. Anyone that likes can go on line and check out what is sold to other countries whose fuel prices have been higher than ours for years. (check out a forum like Toyota Diesel Madness if you don't believe me -- lots of folks in places like New Zealand have factory trucks that get 28-32 and much, much higher). I know it's no Ford or Chevy, depending on your persuasion, but it's a d@#n sight better than trying to make out in a Prius. And this goes for small cars too. heck, the new diesel Mini Cooper puts out better than 60mpg, but isn't slated for North American markets. Honda has tested a european model of it's accord that does this and still hits 60mph quicker than 6 sec. and tops out over 180kph.

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but some companies are making a heck of a lot of money off our gas $$, and I for one see alternative fuels that you can make at home as a very viable way to get the monkey off my back. Incidentally, someone did make the very salient point about ethanol's energy efficiency being <1. As long as that's true, it won't fly long term. Same goes for any new source of energy.

Just my 0.02.

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:29 pm

We have a tremendous infrastructure that supports petroleum based fuels. The growing pains surrounding the switch to renewable resources are going to hurt. The whole idea behind renewable fuels ethanol, E-85, electric, Bio-diesel is, among other things, to reduce the consumption of those petroleum based fuels and thereby reducing the dependency on the Middle East. I've heard it takes twice as much energy to create a gallon of Ethanol than is realized by burning that same gallon. My question is, does it involve petroleum based fuels to create that gallon of Ethanol, if not than we are still ahead. Another question we should ask is can those fuels/energy used to make ethanol be used to make our cars go, if not then there's no real issue, only sensationalism. Many people have been promoting renewable fuels for a long time now and if the government would have listened and created a viable infrastructure to allow us reasonable access to those fuels would we still be in the same situation? (Gulf War) At the same time those environmentalists were opposing drilling in AK they were also lobbying for alternate fuel sources. It's not the bunny huggers that have caused any problems it's complacency and the fear of change that we all have a hard time over coming. My $.02