Common sense

Post by **topher40** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:48 pm

Don touched on this the other day with his post on the intro to the gun. But does it seem to anyone else out there that maybe there is such a thing as a stupid question? What I mean is that people are so lazy that they cant even check the archives, or even scroll down past 2-3 threads to get their info! How many times can a question be answered? Can you hunt behind a jackrabbit? Can anyone here fly? Why cant my dog knit? I saw a guy one time............. :roll: :roll: For gods sakes! I hate to go on a rant but if people are new then CHECK THE ARCHIVES. Or even better yet just take a peek at what someone else posted yesterday, "How to train your dog to give you a perm" is probably there! Sorry for the rant, I have reached a boiling point! Maybe the Kansas Quail opener tommorrow will settle me down!

Don · Post by **Don** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:09 am

Good post.

larue · Post by **larue** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:15 am

common sense also tells us,if repeat questions bother someone,they just should not read them.

schultz's honor · Post by **schultz's honor** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:16 am

My guess is that if you were to go back through the archives you would probably find that just about everything related to gun dogs has been discussed here.
Doesn't mean that we can't pick up new information by bringing up an old topic.
If I wanted information on dog training I know that I could probably find just about everything that I need at the local library, but if we were to do that how would we meet the good old boys at GDF?
If we want a new topic that hasn't been discussed here, how about we discuss quantum physics

Sorry I didn't check the archives, maybe it has been discussed

nitrex · Post by **nitrex** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:41 am

"How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood?"

Now we have a question that is not in the archives - so let's discuss it. This will really help our understanding of gundogs. I'm glad we don't have to discuss the same topics anymore or help out a guy who is just trying to figure out what is going on with his dog.

JessW · Post by **JessW** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:03 am

ya know, I am fairly new to this forum and I have used the archive to look up questions.....I have found some really good information but I have also seen a lot of hateful tirades and conversations tainted with disdain for other forum participants. Now maybe that person was just having a bad day, we all do. And maybe that person, in the future, would like an opportunity for a fresh start with other participants instead of having all the participants on the board, new and old, think that they were too uncaring and impatient to give a rats @$$ about their questions. I think everyone deserves a do-over every now and then.

JohnGrasty · Post by **JohnGrasty** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:16 am

To be perfectly honest, most people on this forum (which is much better than many others I've visited) encourage the new comers (such as myself) not to lurk but get involved. Guess what though, most beginners to the sport have more questions than they do great stories or advice. So if they use the archives (which I do search pretty often myself), then those people will have much less reason to post.

So for a beginner here are the options:
Action: Post questions and newbie type stuff
Result: Chided and told "Go search the archives."
-OR-
Action: Search the archives to find good advice and information.
Result: Chided and told "Get involved."

I will agree though if the thread of the same subject were down at the bottom of the page, a person ought just add there question or particulars to an already active thread.

Just a thought from a newcomer to gundogforum.com

-John

Don · Post by **Don** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:09 am

JohnGrasty wrote:I will agree though if the thread of the same subject were down at the bottom of the page, a person ought just add there question or particulars to an already active thread.

Just a thought from a newcomer to gundogforum.com

-John

My impression is that that is what the discussion is about. I don't think anyone here would chide much of anyone for asking a question, much less a new person. But when two threads are going at the same time on the same subject, that's a bit much. Changing the title of the thread does not change the subject. At times its like talking to my mom. Her memory only seams to last about a min and a half and them she asks the same exact questions over again! Talked to her the other night and she asked about my chickens. Talked for several min about them and I asked her what was new over there, Nothing. Next question, hows your chickens!

I hope new people will always ask questions but don't ask the same one that's on the line below you. Get involved in it first.

One other thing that bothers me. Very few people come back and tell you where the advice they get went. Someone asks a certain question about fixing some problem and gets several different ideas on what to do. Last you hear from him. It would really be great if when you do get advice you let us know what you did and how it worked out. There have been some that do and I really like hearing from those people.

JohnGrasty · Post by **JohnGrasty** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:44 am

I do agree. I think that people should let the forum know how things work out in the end.

Post by **Ayres** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:55 am

Common sense says that if a question comes up that has been discussed before, an experienced forum member that remembers the former discussion should provide a link to it within the new thread.

Then we have the best of both worlds - all the former experience and discussion, as well as a renewed interest in the topic and an opening for further discussion and revision.

Because, really, how many things in dog training are absolutely constant?

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:58 pm

You know there are also some people who are not very computer saavy or Forum saavy for that matter, some folks just may not know where or how to look at archives, as easy as it comes to some of us, it can and does overwhelm others.
I will add I use the archive to search for many older topics and refresh what has been discussed.

JMO,
Chip

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:17 pm

Thanks Chip. Well said.

And to the originator of this thread....I hope that the Quail opener DOES settle you down a bit...and HUMBLE you too....we were all new once, ya know?
You ought to be ashamed of yourself for not being more patient. You can choose to not answer those newbie questions by scrolling PAST them just as easily as they can go look in the archives.

Those that think they know it all have a lot yet to learn.

Grow up.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:41 pm

Didn't we have this same discussion awhile back?

schultz's honor · Post by **schultz's honor** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:05 am

So if a guy goes into the archives and finds the topic that has been discussed before, may comments be added to the old thread?
Would that be bringing up something that has been discussed before?
Is there certain rules regarding once a subject has been discussed that we never discuss it again?
If these are the rules, it sounds like we are very rapidly going to run out of topics to discuss :roll:

Over the Hill · Post by **Over the Hill** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:53 am

Just an opinion from a total newbie:

I just joined this forum a couple days ago. I've been what you call a "lurker" on several boards off and on for years. I'm not a breeder, not a trainer and have never competed with dogs. I'm just a hunter who loves a good dog. I never felt I had anything to add until the other day.

I received a couple e-mails from one of the people on the board that made me start wondering about a few things. I was actually thinking about asking a couple questions.

Then I read this thread. I decided perhaps I should check your archives, which led me to another question I'd have to ask and maybe look stupid: How do I find the archives?

Of course, I don't want to look stupid, so I tried just working back through the board. Found nothing, at least not in the places it made sense to me to look.

I'm a retired teacher. I wasn't aware that every topic on the board was required reading. But the way many of the topics are titled, I don't know how anyone could know what had already been discussed unless they read every post on every topic. Most of us don't have either the time or the inclination to do this. Many of the posters seem to go completely off topic pretty regularly. Topics that from their title should interest someone digress quickly to totally unrelated matters, and aren't related to what the topic title made you think it would be about...

But then, my question wasn't that important anyway, maybe I'll just forget about asking it...

schultz's honor · Post by **schultz's honor** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:50 am

Over the Hill wrote:Just an opinion from a total newbie:

I just joined this forum a couple days ago. I've been what you call a "lurker" on several boards off and on for years. I'm not a breeder, not a trainer and have never competed with dogs. I'm just a hunter who loves a good dog. I never felt I had anything to add until the other day.

I received a couple e-mails from one of the people on the board that made me start wondering about a few things. I was actually thinking about asking a couple questions.

Then I read this thread. I decided perhaps I should check your archives, which led me to another question I'd have to ask and maybe look stupid: How do I find the archives?

Of course, I don't want to look stupid, so I tried just working back through the board. Found nothing, at least not in the places it made sense to me to look.

I'm a retired teacher. I wasn't aware that every topic on the board was required reading. But the way many of the topics are titled, I don't know how anyone could know what had already been discussed unless they read every post on every topic. Most of us don't have either the time or the inclination to do this. Many of the posters seem to go completely off topic pretty regularly. Topics that from their title should interest someone digress quickly to totally unrelated matters, and aren't related to what the topic title made you think it would be about...

But then, my question wasn't that important anyway, maybe I'll just forget about asking it...

Jim, I see from your post that you are a retired teacher, which brings me to my question.
As a teacher when you had new students each year, did you ever see questions that had already been discussed?

Don · Post by **Don** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:05 am

Even after you go through the archives and read up, you'll probably still have questions. That's when you gain most from asking because you already have some knowledge of what to ask. I guess what I mean is now you know the question you need to ask to get a good answer.

That questions are asked periodically is a good thing, it makes everyone think. Amazing what a lot of us feel is self evident and not needed to be mentioned. Yet the more questions get asked right, the more that stuff we feel is self evident proves that it's not!

Then too, by becoming involved yourself, you'll learn in spite of yourself. You benefit, the board benefits and your dog benefits. But to have two posts running at the same time covering the same thing gets confusing. Better if you have, for example, a problem with retrieving and a thread is going on it, read the thread, read back threads and then on the one already going, ask your question. Good chance that the thread starter would have asked the same question had he thought of it.

Retired school teacher. I better spell check!

Over the Hill · Post by **Over the Hill** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:11 am

I taught 6th grade. Obviously the kids were going to have the same types of questions that the students from years past did. If they already knew the material, they wouldn't be there.

My job was to answer their questions, not to suggest that they borrow the notes of one of last year's students.

You might think it would get boring, teaching the same material year after year. Those "same old questions" were what kept it interesting. I always tried to use what's called the Socratic method of teaching, which is basically leading the student into finding the answers to his own question. Of course, the whole class took part in the discussions. Questions always led to other questions, and there were always a few kids with rather unique perspectives--it would surprise you how much I learned from some of these discussions! Not always directly from the kids themselves, but from the questions that their questions raised in my mind.

(The only thing that ever really frustrated me were the daydreamers, who would sit through a discussion one day, then ask basically the same questions the next.)

I guess your question was a fair anology in most ways. But unlike teachers, the people on this board aren't required to deal with the same old same olds. They can just ignore them, or as someone above suggested, give a link to something in the archives that answers their questions.

If the goal is to stimulate conversation, a link plus a comment that would lead to more discussion might be the best way.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:20 am

As long as the post is for nothing really. I am going to rant a little. Know what gets on my nerves. When someone goes through the whole internet and finds every forum for gun dogs and post the same question with in a half a hour. Do they think most these guys don't visit most these forums? Are they so impatient that they can't wait 5 minutes for free advice? I understand if you are not geting a responce for you question but this stuff is unbelievable and when I see someone do this I won't even respond to that question at all.

Ok, now that I am done. As someone stated if the same question is asked that has been asked a million times and that does happen just post a link to the archives for that person.

The way to do this for new people just click on the search icon on the top of the page and put in key word to search for.

Don · Post by **Don** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:26 am

OhioGSP,

Now that you mention it I see a lot of that. I think they just copy and paste all over the internet. See it on dogs and on guns. Sometimes I find the a question on the same site twice by the same guy!

JessW · Post by **JessW** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:27 am

Don't be too hard on those daydreamers....you never know what type of genius lies in those dreams. At least they asked the next day. Would you rather have a student content to remain blissfully ignorant?

I would have a harder time with the smart allec kids that always have their mouths running but don't contribute anything constructive.....what a distraction.

You have to have the patience of Jobe to be any type of teacher!

Over the Hill · Post by **Over the Hill** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:34 am

Ohiogsp:

I tried using the "search" function, and got no results, probably because I'm not familiar with the terms used.

My question was basically why is range such an issue in field trials, and why do dogs range so much further than they did twenty or thirty years ago?

I'd actually rather just read in the archives, if I could find something. Would you mind pointing me to the right archive, since you seem to know your way around this board pretty well?

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:53 am

That is a very specific question there and would be hard to find. You can find lots of info on FT's but I am afriad it always turns into a argument. That is definatly where your question would end up but it would not be your fault. I will post it if you want.

Over the Hill · Post by **Over the Hill** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:54 am

Jess:

"Daydreamers" was the wrong word, the kids that really frustrated me were the ones busy doing things that weren't class related. You wouldn't believe the number of notes passed back and forth about the "hot new guy" etc.

Some of the actual daydreamers were often the most interesting students, if you could just figure out a way to stimulate their interest. Real gems.

About the smart alecks. Believe it or not, with a little encouraging from me, other kids in the class did a pretty good job of controlling them. No one likes to look stupid. Another kid saying, "Hey Dummy, don't you get," did a lot more good than anything I could have said or done.

The kids were never the biggest problem in teaching. It was the parents, and rules coming down from the State and Federal level. I retired early because I got tired of trying to deal with it, when it actually interfered with the kids who were truly interested in learning.

Over the Hill · Post by **Over the Hill** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:02 am

Ohiogsp:

Thanks. I'd really appreciate it. I don't want to be the cause of any arguments, but it seems to me that it could be discussed intelligently.

I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with the additional range, I'd just like to know why it's so important, and why it seems to be getting farther and farther.

Over the Hill · Post by **Over the Hill** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:03 am

Oops! Here I am digressing, just like I complained about other people doing above!

JessW · Post by **JessW** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:12 am

the problem that I have run into with the archives is that some terms are used so frequently and could have actually nothing to do with the questions that you are asking. you would receive numerous search results on topics that would have nothing to do with your particular interest at the time. (not that it isn't interesting reading)

click on search on the menu at the top of your screen...

in the search for keywords blank, type: range and field trial and field trial range

separate each key word with either "and" or "or" based on whether it has to be in the results you want or just possibly be there....

you can the select in the box below....using the drop down menus select the forum you'd like to search to narrow the results some what and then hit enter......

you will get tons of results that you will have to wade through.....

check it out, and after about an hour or more of browsing you will want to repost your question in a selected forum.....because trust me, the terms range and field trial are way to general to get you narrowed results...

JessW · Post by **JessW** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:24 am

Over the Hill wrote:The kids were never the biggest problem in teaching. It was the parents, and rules coming down from the State and Federal level. I retired early because I got tired of trying to deal with it, when it actually interfered with the kids who were truly interested in learning.

It's too bad about that early retirement, although, I understand. You sound like a great teacher. I have two teenagers...13 & 15 and it seems that we lose a lot of good teachers to those same frustrations.

Over the Hill · Post by **Over the Hill** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:46 am

Jess:

I don't know that I was a great teacher, but I loved it, and I do miss it. Probably why I jumped in and volunteered to "teach" people on this board about inbreeding co-efficients...

They're actually pretty simple, if I can just come up with a way to put a few diagrams on a post.

JessW · Post by **JessW** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:53 am

Over the Hill wrote:Ohiogsp:

Thanks. I'd really appreciate it. I don't want to be the cause of any arguments, but it seems to me that it could be discussed intelligently.

I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with the additional range, I'd just like to know why it's so important, and why it seems to be getting farther and farther.

Doesn't really answer your question specifically but I thought it was an interesting thread on range and the variety of thoughts on range...

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8890

Over the Hill · Post by **Over the Hill** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:00 pm

Ted:

Thanks. I read it, but it isn't really related. I really don't want a close working dog, especially in the sense that Springers or Labs work close. There's really no sense in having a pointing dog if you want it to work in gun range--my opinion, anyway. The more ground the dog covers, the more birds he'll find for you--as long as you can find the dog, that is.

As I told you in e-mail, I've always had dogs from trial lines--what I catoregized as "old" and "modern" trial lines. I remember going to trials with my dad to find a Shorthair when I was just a kid. But the trial dogs from back in the 60s and 70s didn't range the way these newer lines do. Believe me, they were all the dog you wanted to keep up with on foot, but they weren't out there four or five hundred yards, either.

My question, I guess, is academic: What is the purpose of so much range, and why has it increased so dramatically over the last two decades? What I would look for in a dog is only distantly related.

Over the Hill · Post by **Over the Hill** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:39 pm

Jess:

Thanks! The link you gave me was really interesting. Wild Rose made a good point about cover and terrain being important in deciding what is good range. She seems to know what she's talking about. But again, it didn't answer what I was asking about field trials.

That topic led me to another that was even more interesting, and came a little closer to answering my question. They were discussing what makes an All Age dog, and someone described a dog that went up the side of a cliff, and was then seen two miles away.

Someone else responded:

Wow those are the dogs that give you goose bumps watching them. They have so much drive. That would have been great to see.

Am I wrong in starting to think that field trials are becoming more like horse racing that events to test the performance of a hunting dog?

I've been to a few field trials, just as a spectator. My dad had a half brother to Ronlord Ruler, and we went to watch him run several times.

I once asked the difference in Gun Dog and All Age, and it was explained to me that an All Age dog is more experienced so he doesn't need as much direction and can therefore range out farther. I was left with the impression that there was a logical progression from Puppy through Derby to Gun Dog, and then when the dog was truly polished and could hunt without a lot of guidance from his owner to All Age.

I get the distinct impression that this isn't the case anymore. But as you said, it didn't really answer my question. I'm starting to think that the extreme range (run) is valued in and of itself, and really doesn't have any purpose.

On the last thread they were talking about needing at least a square mile to run a one hour All Age class. I don't know anything about field trials, but I do know a little about hunting after 48 years. I don't care how good a nose a dog has, or how fast he can run, there's no way a dog can hunt a square mile in an hour!

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:31 pm

Jim, I think range is discussed a lot on lists simply for something to talk about.

A good range is what you yourself feel happy about in a dog, and assuming you the hunter understand a little the breed you own and the countryside you hunt.

A bootlicker is not a dog that ranges 50 yards in heavy cover or among trees but it may be a bit lacking in wide open places. Still as long as the dog is working hard would it really matter if the owner was happy with that.

A dog that runs 1/2 mile or more, some obviously get a kick out of that and if they have the means to truck a horse to their hunting grounds then that's their way to enjoy hunting.

I often see folk writing that they are worried about their 3-4-5-6 month old puppy not ranging far enough, so yes it does seem that too much emphasis is placed on "desirable range" that it has these new pup owners all in a fuss because their puppy isn't behaving like a more independant adult dog or some sort of greyhound gundog hybrid.

JohnGrasty · Post by **JohnGrasty** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:27 pm

I often see folk writing that they are worried about their 3-4-5-6 month old puppy not ranging far enough, so yes it does seem that too much emphasis is placed on "desirable range" that it has these new pup owners all in a fuss because their puppy isn't behaving like a more independant adult dog or some sort of greyhound gundog hybrid.

That raises a question I've had for a while. I know every dog is different, but generally when does a dog develop his range. I've only had a few dogs (I'm only 24), but I curious what a general consensus is.

Over the Hill · Post by **Over the Hill** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:13 am

Margaret:

You're right. In fact the ONLY thing that matters is that the owner is happy with his dog. My original question was WHY extreme range is so important in field trials, and no one has addressed that at all. I know why I like the kind of range that I do in a dog, and just assumed that other people did, too. I'm getting the feeling that it's one of those "That's just the way it is" things. They like it because they like it and there doesn't have to be a reason...

John:

I haven't owned nearly the number of dogs that some of the people on this board have, but those I've owned have come from very diverse bloodlines. I think that when a puppy develops his range depends a lot on his breeding. The best dogs I've owned (excluding Heid, who is absolutely the best, but was four years old when I got her.) seemed to develop their range pretty late, at least by comparison with some of what I read on various boards. From what I've seen, the puppies that are a little cautious when young learn to range out farther in search of birds as they get a little experience and their confidence grows.

Those that appeared to have nice range at a young age also increased their range as they matured, well beyond what I like in a hunting dog.

I've read on many many boards that it's easier to "reel a dog in" than to "drive him out" which makes perfect sense. But I also get the impression that sometimes "reeling them in" requires a lot more expertise than I have. I think it's probably better to start with a puppy from breeding than has been shown to produce the kind of dog you want. Of course range is just one factor...