Bad Bites

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Bad Bites

Post by bigoak » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:02 pm

I've been field trialing since the early 1970's.But lately I've been hearing about more and more dogs with bad bites.Some of these dogs are being bred extensively!I don't understand someone breeding and possibly introducing this trait into their pups!It should be our responsibility to try and eliminate these faults from our dogs not propitiate it.It's probably the pointer crosses coming out!....vern

AT2

Post by AT2 » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:04 pm

bad bites? What do you mean?

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Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:06 pm

The teeth don't meet in a tight sissor bite. Its a strong genetic fault that readily breeds to the next generation.

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Post by lvrgsp » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:32 pm

I could not agree more with you Vern, unfortunately you have people, owners/breeders who have no idea what a bad bite is. Run Run Run
Point Point Point. Oh yea can he eat his own food? Who cares he runs a mile and point his birds, that is some of the mentality, not all of them.
Some guys do not know what a bad bite is or that it is a genetic trait that is passed on. And most people will not post or talk about dogs with bad bites, nobodywants to step on any toes. Sorry about your all age dog that has won multiple championships that can't chew his own food. Hey more power to you, I'm just not going to breed to it or anything with a bad bite.
In my opinion this needs to be discussed as much as ofa hips in GSP's.

JMO,
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Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:09 pm

Funny this came up but I was going to ask about the bites on many of the young dogs I see pictured. It looks like they have a fine snippy head or they have a very bad bite that makes them look that way. I was wondering if they really do or is just the pics that make them look that way? I always hate to say anything about someone's dog for fear of hurting feelings, but it does need to be addressed or the breed will be in trouble.

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Post by lvrgsp » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:19 pm

My point exactly Ezzy, Nobody wants to hurt or talk bad about somebody else's dog, but the truth is your dog has a bad bite, comes from a line of dogs with bad bites, hey just let someone know. Dog owners shame on us we need to educate ourselves on this and many other health realated issues, when it comes to this no one person/dog is any better than anyone else.

JUST MY OPINION......

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Post by topher40 » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:21 pm

Why is a dogs bite so important? I am serious when I ask this. Did all the great champions of the past have perfect bites? For that matter where they all out of planned litters with the best of intentions? How many dogs have any of you had with less than 100% desirable traits and then bred? The way I look at it is if you can get a dog with 80% desirable traits, I.E. run, desire, biddability, trainability, handle, physical characteristics, markings, etc etc, you are doing pretty darn good! JMO, could be wrong but even if I am not there will be those that disagree! :wink:
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Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:29 pm

I know I come from a different place than many of you but I don't breed a any dog that has a physical fault. If the bite is bad, if its oversized or undersized, if the coloring is wrong, if the feet are bad, etc. Those are the basis of the breed. Once you have those covered then I look at performance issues like those you mentioned. I don't think it is hard to find dogs that meet the standard that are great field dogs also. Those are the dogs that should be used.

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Post by lvrgsp » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:31 pm

Another great point Chris. why is it so important that my dog has a good bite when all other attributes are overwhelmingly excellent. Ever seen a dog you have to constantly water there food down to chew up? Ever seen a dog file there own teeth down to nothing because of a butt bite? How about a dog with an overshot/undershot bite that has trouble keeping objects it tries to pick up in it's mouth. And I'll be real honest with you Chris, do you know how many guys who own pointers ask themselves this question, or how many guys that own pointers have there dogs checked for hip displaysia? Not saying anyone persons dogs have them, just asking that question? Well why ask that question, you continually breed it and it continually gets worse, well heck my dog is good, thats the problem most people cannot tell if there dog has a bad bite, or bad hips. OFA, they will do it for you as far as hips.
AGAIN JUST MY OPINION
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Post by hubweims » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:34 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I know I come from a different place than many of you but I don't breed a any dog that has a physical fault. If the bite is bad, if its oversized or undersized, if the coloring is wrong, if the feet are bad, etc. Those are the basis of the breed. Once you have those covered then I look at performance issues like those you mentioned. I don't think it is hard to find dogs that meet the standard that are great field dogs also. Those are the dogs that should be used.

Ezzy
we come from the same place!!!!! my thoughts exactly.

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Post by lvrgsp » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:48 pm

Here is a link of some pics of dogs with bad bites, honestly if you are not sure ask your vet, if they don't know, find someone who does heck it's free.

http://www.dentalvet.com/patients/ortho ... ontics.htm

Hope this helps,
Chip

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Post by topher40 » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:48 pm

lvrgsp-

Another good point? That means I would have had to have been right before, correct? 8)
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Post by lvrgsp » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:57 pm

I was referring to Ezzy's post before yours, Chris, my point was just as you asked, why is it so important that is all I was trying to explain in my opinion. Listen I am not here to personally attack someones dogs, ask yourself this, would you post a pic of your dogs bite? anyone? I would be more than happy to do it, on both of my shorthairs. As Ezzy said before there are enough good birddogs out there that are conformationally correct to breed to why take the chance?

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Post by MOOSE » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:05 am

I would also be happy to post pics of my dogs bite. They are just fine! I never really thought about its importants to be honest with you though til this is brought up.

Good educational topic I say!
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Post by Kiki's Mom » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:22 am

This thread boils down to a simple thing....why compete and why breed?

Isn't the point of both to showcase and further the EXCELLENCE of our chosen breeds for the future?
I'm going to come right and say this ( right after I put on my flame retardant suit :roll: )

If you as a breeder are NOT looking at the TOTAL picture, with the goal of trying to BETTER the breed you have chosen to breed, then you have absolutely NO business BREEDING!!!!

There is a written standard for all of our dogs for a REASON. Bad Bites, once infused into a breeding program are next to impossible to eradicate and they are 100% GENETIC.

Those that discard such a blatant malformation when choosing breeding stock are not breeding to the standard, they are not breeding for the purpose of bettering their breed and they are not doing anything good for their beloved dogs' future.

Sure...things happen once in a while that can't be controlled. But we absolutely SHOULD NOT knowingly perpetuate these things in the name of excellence or anything else if we really love and care about our dogs.

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Post by ezzy333 » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:09 pm

Well said Helen. Call,I'llhelp you put out the fire when you are attacked. I have experience.

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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Post by bigoak » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:36 pm

Where are all the field trialer who post daily on this forum?

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Post by lvrgsp » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:00 pm

Here Vern, another gas can to add to the fire.

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Post by bigoak » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:09 pm

If a person owned a Elhew dog in the early 1960's it likely had a bad bite and flagged on it's game.By the time Bob Wehle died,he was raising the best dogs he'd ever had.It took 40 years and how many generations to breed that fault from his blood lines...vern

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Post by TrueBlu Shorthairs » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:53 pm

I have been a hunter for 35 years and a trialer for the last 10. I have had 5 litters and have had no pups with bad bites, not one. I have bred to one NFC, and dogs with nothing but HOF and FC parents, with many species and hour wins. Point is...in GSPs, among trial winners, bad bites are not prevelent.

I have also had a few breed to my dogs. First thing I check is the females bite. If it is bad, they are sent packing, no discussion.

I want run run run as has been said. But, bad temperaments, bad bites, lack of style, mange, etc. are not and will not be tolerated in my breeding program or with any dog I allow to breed to my stud dogs.

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Re: Bad Bites

Post by WildRose » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:26 pm

bigoak wrote:I've been field trialing since the early 1970's.But lately I've been hearing about more and more dogs with bad bites.Some of these dogs are being bred extensively!I don't understand someone breeding and possibly introducing this trait into their pups!It should be our responsibility to try and eliminate these faults from our dogs not propitiate it.It's probably the pointer crosses coming out!....vern
Vern I don't really know of any GSP's being bred extensively, or even much at all that have bad bites so I don't know of the dogs you're referring to or where they are coming from.

You'd have to ask about specific dogs for anyone to comment intelligently I think.

I've had three gsp's in the last thirty years that didn't have good bites. None of them showed up until after six months of age. All three were dogs I bought, all three from different lines. None of them were ever bred, they were spayed/neutered and sold. CR
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Post by Dave Quindt » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:54 pm

Apparently the we not only have a problem with bad bites in our trial dogs but we have an epidemic of bad vision in our field trialers!

Since 2001 we've had multiple dogs with bad bites EVERY YEAR win a broke dog stake at one of our 3 national championship events. And those are just the ones I know about.

I've had two mentors in this game; Brath and Sienkowski Jr. I've seen both of them refuse to breed to multi-Ch winning dogs with terrible bites in the past few years when doing so would have been good for business and not doing so cost them business. It's sad that someone has to make the decision between doing the right thing for their business (and family) and doing the right thing for the breed.

It's one thing for a slight butt bite to sneak by, but we we have dogs with major crossbites, where one side is almost completely worn down by 6 years of age being promoted as stud dogs by major circuit pros. We put 14,000+ GSP pups on the ground A YEAR; there is no dog that's so superior in his abilities that we have to accept a MAJOR conformation fault.

We have seen a rise in bad bites in our breed simply because run is king and "win at ALL costs" is the rule of the day.

Sad, but true. And I'm a trialer who supports the game and wants to see it grow. But winning, for the sake of winning, will get us nowhere.

FWIW,
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Post by ezzy333 » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:41 pm

I see the same thing in the Brits. Not as many bad bites but other faults such as way oversized. Its too bad that the trialing competion is so important that many breeders are breeding strictly for run and not for the good of the breed. We need to get back to what each breed was bred for and the first priority has to be sound confirmation as stated in the standards.

It really concerns me when the first thing the ordinary hunter is concerned about is too much range. That shouldn't be the biggest problem we have. And my biggest concern as a breeder is all of the people breeding dogs with major faults and disqualificaions within the breeds.

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Post by Wagonmaster » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:08 am

Where are all the field trialer who post daily on this forum?
That's easy. Its hunting season. We are out hunting our dogs instead of running other people's down. Which is where I am going.

I go to about 8 championships a year including Booneville and Eureka, sometimes more sometimes less. And I read the accounts of the others, so I know who goes and who does not. The interesting thing about this thread is that outside of Dave, not one of the rest of you goes to see these dogs you are talking about. Not even Blake, who shows up to watch a Derby now and then. Hey Blake, I have been at every GSP National Championship All Age now for about three years, and I thought I was going to meet you a while ago mate. But haven't seen you, where you been?

A couple of years ago I was interested in breeding to Tonelli's Rising Sun. Don't do it, said a bunch of you Internet experts. I got some PM's to the effect that Sonny, one of our National Champions, had a bad bite. Some of those came from people writing on this thread.

So when I was at the NGSPA Nationals at Booneville a year and a half ago I walked over to Doug Stock's trailer, actually talked to Doug, and with his permission actually looked Sonny over and looked at his bite. What do you know, a perfect scissors bite!

Yeah, I am really into believing you guys now. :lol:

When you are the big dog, everyone wants to take you down a notch so they will say pretty much anything they have heard, or heard from their neighbor, or their neighbor's friend's girlfriend's sister. Anything at all.

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Re: Bad Bites

Post by wannabe » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:58 am

bigoak wrote:I've been field trialing since the early 1970's.But lately I've been hearing about more and more dogs with bad bites.Some of these dogs are being bred extensively!I don't understand someone breeding and possibly introducing this trait into their pups!It should be our responsibility to try and eliminate these faults from our dogs not propitiate it.It's probably the pointer crosses coming out!....vern
If you wanted to buy a pup or breed your dog twenty years ago, you had either seen the dog for yourself, or got on the phone and had a one-on-one conversation with a trusted dog person that had actually seen the dog perform and put their hands on it. You didn't have to worry about being PC or hurting someone's feeling by telling the truth about their dog.

Nowdays people get their info from kennel websites and internet message boards like this one where you only hear about the good stuff and everyone is an expert.

Last spring I walked up to a derby dog on a stake out and discretly looked in his mouth while I was giving him some pets. The breeder was standing a few yards away and he knew what I was up to, so he asked me how the dog's bite looked. I shook my head and said, "undershot, just like his sire and grandsire". BTW, it was a GSP out of field trial breeding.
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Post by Dave Quindt » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:12 am

Vern wrote:
I don't understand someone breeding and possibly introducing this trait into their pups!It should be our responsibility to try and eliminate these faults from our dogs not propitiate it.
Vern, it's simple. It's no longer taboo to breed to a dog, or stud a dog out, with a bad bite. Part of it is ignorance and a lack of education and part of it is just plain greed and ego. We as trialers are so convinced that we are producing God's gift to the dog world in the dogs we produce to bother with the "little things" like correct bite or eye color.

Trialers don't want to talk about this stuff (bites, tri-colors, pedigree fraud) just like Major League Baseball hasn't wanted to talk about steroids for the last 2 decades. Deny, deny, deny.

I watched a Nat Ch winning pro chase an amateur up and down the parking lot at a championship this spring, pushing to know why he wouldn't breed his multiple CH-producing female to one of 3 AA CHs on that pro's string when all 3 had bad bites, which the pro freely admits. When the pro asked the amateur "are you breeding trial dogs, or show dogs?" I walked away.

I had a conversation with another Nat Ch winning pro at Eureka last year who has no problem pointing out the dogs on his string with bad bites; including the ones he was breeding to and recommending that he clients breed to. Told me flat out "I'm paid to win, so if I have to breed to dogs with bad bites to do so, so be it."

We've got people on this thread that have bred to a National Champion with a horrible bite telling us there isn't a problem?

I stand by what I said before. We put 14,000 GSPs on the ground a year; there should be no reason why dogs with obvious conformation faults are not washed out as puppies/derbies. None of these dogs is so superior to make these faults acceptable.

If you don't want bad bites, don't breed to dogs with bad bites or breed to dogs from parents with bad bites. Is this a foolproof approach? Nope, but it's the best method we've got.

I only speak for myself, but if breeding to dogs with bad bites, or tri-colors, or pointer crosses or goofy temperaments is the secret to winning trials I'll take my dogs hunting and never run a trial again. I don't want to win that bad.

JMO,
Dave

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Post by fuzznut » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:06 am

I don't post here much, much prefer to read... but this one hit's close to home.
There are faults, and then there are faults. Some are beauty faults and won't interfere with the dogs health or working ability, some are faults that will one day put a hurtin' on a dog.

I won't breed to bad bites, bad temperments, bad feet or horrible movement. These are things that will effect the dogs working ability over time. I'll consider using a light eye, poor coat and a dog without a 12 o'clock tail, these are faults that will not effect performance. I don't like big heavy dogs or dogs with so much bone it makes them tire easily, nor do I like weedy, spindly dogs. A dog that's a bit large, or a bit small, not a big deal, that's fixable.

I have no problem with people who wish to compete with dogs with any of the above faults, it's their money and their time. And to be honest, dogs that can do the job and do it well, while not breeding quality for me,may be worth looking at the family tree.

Don't have GSP's so won't/can't comment on them, but in GWP's there are dogs running and winning with some nasty faults. I may not breed to them, but very well will keep an eye on progeny they produce.

As long as you know what's in there, you can handle it. It's those who don't take the time to look and find out the truth ... they are the ones that are so surprised when bad bites show up. Too many breeding without having a clue to family histories, or what is truly behind the dogs. Too many new to the breed breeding without much knowledge.

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Post by WildRose » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:09 am

Dave I had three pups out of one of those Nat'l CH's that threw bad bites. One of them had a bad bite and some temperament issues, the other two were really fine dogs.

I guess somehow this is a subject that needs more discussion in the public forum but how do we do it without getting everyone who has a dog with the problem from throwing fits? The politics of trialing are more than bad enough as it is!

One thing some of us have to rely on is our fellow breeder's word. Someone pm'd me recently asking about Spot's bite. All I can say is I've looked the dog in the eye while scratching his head on several occasions and certainly have never noticed a bad bite, but I haven't closely examined him because at the time I wasn't really giving great consideration to breeding to him.

If and when we get serious about breeding to him I have two choices. I can simply ask John, or take a look next time I see him. If I don't get the opportunity to look myself I know full well John will tell me not only exactly what his honest evaluation of the dog's bite is, but he'll also without my having to ask tell me if he's seen any bad bites in his offspring, and if so how the bitches were bred that produced them. I'd do the same for him and he knows me well enough to trust what I tell him.

For the brief period of time I've been trialing, i've been very fortunate in having a good bit of success and making a whole lot of good friends. I haven't been in it long enough to get completely soured on the politics, and "trailer talk" but I've sure learned you not only have to be very careful in what you say when talking to fellow trialers, you also have to be pretty darn careful about the questions you ask. Ask the "wrong question" and suddenly you are bad mouthing ole so and so.

I've also learned very quicly that no matter what you do or say there are some who will go out of their way to make stuff up just to stir up trouble for you and try very hard to put friends at odds just to watch the sparks fly... .

Dave one thing I can't speak to are the "tri colors", I've heard about them from several people but never seen them. I've also never seen any of the litters where some supposedly get registered as EP's because they are lemon, while the liver's get registered as GSP's.

Hopefully as DNA science advances and we have ever tightening criteria for breeding stock being DNA'd much of those shenanigains are a thing of the past and a much of the whispering about fraudulent pedigrees will be put to rest. We can't back track and correct anything that was done in the past but it will be much harder for people to cheat in the future. CR
Last edited by WildRose on Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by bigoak » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:11 am

Thank you Dave!Thats the answer I was looking for...vern

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Post by AHGSP » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:47 am

Not to sidetrack, but could you clarify on the Tri-color Dave? I'm assuming you are referring to the Gelber Brand that is somewhat rare in GSP's, but is being produced out of a Kennel up North your way? Or are we talking cross breeds here?
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Post by Hotpepper » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:03 pm

It is my honest opinion that this thread has absolutelky any value and will eventually get nasty, if it has not already.

Dog trainers who try to talk like field trialers. Vern success is well documented, others are not.

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Post by natetnc » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:08 pm

i am thinking of getting my dog a platinum grill like nelly :lol:

i agree with fuzznut, as long as the dogs health is not in jeopardy i have no problem with breeding outside the standard. i have a brit that has a shoulder height outside the standard. she is not a huge brittany so i expect her size will not create any potential health issues.

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Post by fuzznut » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:34 pm

Pepper, not sure what you are trying to say?

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Post by RCB » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:56 pm

On the subject of faults, I agree that a bad bite is a significant fault and it should be bred out. The plus, if there is one, is that it is easy to recognize and it appears early on. All dogs have faults and the majority of them are invisible to the eye and it takes a long time, and usually significant training time and resources, before it is recognized. People would prefer to breed to a dog with a known invisible fault, then a visible one, even though it is much more difficult to eliminate.

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Post by TrueBlu Shorthairs » Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:27 pm

Dave, I don't know who said they haven't seen bad bites. I believe Charlie and I both said that we care about bad bites, but didn't say we haven't seen any anywhere or that either of us has our heads in the sand about dogs with bad bites. Yes, I know dogs with bad bites. In fact, one of the winningest dogs in recent memory has a terrible bite. I would never breed to him based solely on his bite. Personally, I've never examined Nuke or Sonny or many others, as I have never considered breeding to them. I would however, before breeding, look at a dog's bite before a dog of mine bred to that dog. However, take a look at dogs' I've produced, Hud, Libby, Yoda, dogs that I believe should be bred to and bred. Those dogs have perfect bites. I cannot speak for all dogs in the breed. You seem to have far more experience and know far more than I ever will. So, I guess I will yield to your absolute expertise.

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Post by Dave Quindt » Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:26 pm

Blake,

Relax, I wasn't talking about you.

PM sent.

Dave

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Post by TrueBlu Shorthairs » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:53 pm

Point is Dave, and I KNEW you weren't talking about my breeding in any way. But, some idiots will breed to anything to try to win. Some of us won't breed bad bites if it means never winning again. Trialers are a good group as a whole. HOWEVER, there are some absolute crooks out there. I can name them. Most who know me, know I am far from afraid of those guys. But, the best method is to educate privately and let people know who the honest breeders are and the dishonest too.

Some think winning is all that matters. Some of us have ethics and truly try to produce dogs that better the breeds. Not, a bunch of cow hocked, elbowed out, undershot round eyed, pointer look alikes.

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Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:18 pm

I've received a couple of e-mails about this thread.

I believe that this is an important discussion to let run. Let's keep it polite and reasoned.

Best regards, Greg J.

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Post by fuzznut » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:40 pm

Honestly I can't imagine anyone getting their you know what in a ringer over what has been discussed thus far.
We all know each of us has different reasons for breeding any dog, what I may not find acceptable, you might.

If someone chooses to breed dogs with bad bites, that's up to them. Those that do so hopefully are only doing it for very good reasons and are up front with everyone involved. Those that aren't up front about it, well... shame on you! I don't know that I believe that any dog can be that absolutely drop dead wonderful that that they themselves have to be bred if they have that sort of fault, but those are my standards.

This year at our nationals, I had one fellow walk me down his chain gang, showing me puppy after puppy, from the same litter, all with bite issues. He just couldn't understand how it happened. Mom and dad both had good bites. When he told me who mom and dad were.... it was no real surprise, but was sad. Had he taken the time to do some investigation, he may not have done that particular breeding, or at the least, he may not have been so surprised at the mouths he got. Luckily, all those puppies will go out on spay neuter contracts, no matter how good they turn out, they won't add to the problem down the road.

People need to talk to one another, they need to have mentors to find out what those of us who have been around for more than 10 years knows. And we all need to not bash the other dogs, just be honest about what we know, and what we have actually seen. Telling the truth is not bashing. Making up information is.

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Post by snips » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:13 pm

I have been told that if a pups bite is off to look at their side insicors and if they match up, the bite will be correct, even if it is off at the time. I sold an undershot pup with limited reg once only to get it back grown up for training and it was fine.
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Post by WildRose » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:46 pm

Jerry must have been in a hurry when he typed that. I'm sure it's not meant the way it sounds.

Dave out of those 14,000 or so GSP's registered each year less than one percent will ever be entered in a trial or hunt test. Most of the rest of them are just dogs that go to families to be part time hunters and full time members of the family.

Whether we like it or not the dogs that are the biggest winners have a huge impact on the breed for generations to come so I certainly think it's reasonable to have a polite and reasoned public discussion from time to time about where we are as a breed, and as breeders.

Just about everyone that breeds dogs thinks in some way or another they are working to improve the breed. To some that's purely about conformation, to some it's purely about trial and testing performance but for the vast majority it's just about producing great family gun dogs. None has to be exclusive of the others by any means but it is indeed quite possible to get so hung up on your one window on the world that you don't see the other windows or the people standing behind them. CR
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Genetic Flaws

Post by Hotpepper » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:57 am

A genetic flaw is never good. 40 years ago when I bought my 1st lab and tried my hand at field trialing, there was a lab from Northern Illinois who was winning everything. He threw great pups and his hips were terrible, he was bred over 500 times, whole litters were put down that could never stand up. People bred to him anyway. Those bad hips are still around.

This is something to get very excited about, I do not believe that I have or know of a GSP with bad hips and is being bred.

In the dogs that I know of with the "BAD BITES" and have been bred, none of the pups have picked this up. Sure it could have happened and it has not yet been seen.

Not sure who the tri-color comment was directed to and why it was brought into this. In today's shorthair, there is english pointer there, same in the britt's and the red setter's and other breeds.

I will never do it and expose anyone that I know that did it.

Charlie, your last post is great.

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Post by wannabe » Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:22 am

Jerry,

Are you saying that bad hips do get passed down, but bad bites don't???

Bad hips are not as easy to diagnose as a bad bite. Any idiot can look in a dog's mouth and see most malocclsions, but it takes x-rays to see hip problems.
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Post by WildRose » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:24 pm

Wannabe I culled one of the best performing and best bred young GSP's I've ever seen last year over a bad bite. I don't have bad bites, won't have bad bites, and won't knowingly breed to them.

However Jerry has a pretty good point. Bites are very obvious. If someone chooses to breed to a dog with a bad bite, well that's their choice. Like many genetic traits bites are polygenetic and recessive so you don't know with any certainty whether or not they will appear in the next or subsequent generations just because one parent has an off bite.

It's not like anyone is going to pawn off pups with alligator mouths on the unsuspecting unless the buyer is too dumb to look at their teeth!

Hips however have a very distinct difference. Not only are they impossible to see (dysplasia) they can CRIPPLE THE DOG!

A dog would have to have a much worse bite than I've ever seen to be incapable of eating. In some breeds however where dysplasia is prevalent a lot of owners simply accept that at some point they will be very likely to face a situation whereby they have to decide if their dog is worth a 2-3,000.00 painful surgery with a long and painful recovery and a doubtful outcome or if it's cheaper, kinder, and more sensible to simply put their dog down and start over.CR
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Post by wannabe » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:19 am

WildRose wrote:Bites are very obvious. If someone chooses to breed to a dog with a bad bite, well that's their choice. Like many genetic traits bites are polygenetic and recessive so you don't know with any certainty whether or not they will appear in the next or subsequent generations just because one parent has an off bite.CR
Another reason not to buy a GSP. :roll:
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Post by WildRose » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:24 am

wannabe wrote:
WildRose wrote:Bites are very obvious. If someone chooses to breed to a dog with a bad bite, well that's their choice. Like many genetic traits bites are polygenetic and recessive so you don't know with any certainty whether or not they will appear in the next or subsequent generations just because one parent has an off bite.CR
Another reason not to buy a GSP. :roll:
I hate to point this out smart guy but with regard to bites gsp genetics are like any other breed in that it's possible to get a bad bite in any litter no matter what the parents bites look like. However compared to some of the other pointing breeds it's far less likely.

I raised over a hundred gsp's to over a year old in the last thirty years in that time I've had three with bad bites. On the other hand I've seen dozens of entire litters of EP's and a great many dogs of other pointing breeds with bad bites.

From what I've seen, while there may be a few stand out individuals (because of their trialing accomplishments) that indeed have a bad bite, on the whole it's simply not a problem in the breed that has any significant level of prominance overall. CR
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Post by wannabe » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:04 am

WildRose wrote:gsp genetics are like any other breed in that it's possible to get a bad bite in any litter no matter what the parents bites look like.CR
I agree, Charlie!!!

But if the breeders are going to take the chance of breeding dogs with bad bites, then the chances of bad bites showing up in future generations is going to increase.
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Post by WildRose » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:10 am

wannabe wrote:
WildRose wrote:gsp genetics are like any other breed in that it's possible to get a bad bite in any litter no matter what the parents bites look like.CR
I agree, Charlie!!!

But if the breeders are going to take the chance of breeding dogs with bad bites, then the chances of bad bites showing up in future generations is going to increase.
The point is, not many GSP breeders ARE choosing to breed to dogs with bad bites so the risk is minimal. Even when they do it's not a fault that's easily hidden so it's not very likely that anyone is going to get a pup with a bad bite unless they aren't smart enough to look at the pup's teeth before they take it home.
Another reason not to buy a GSP.
It's certainly no reason to bash the entire breed as you did in your prior post. CR
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Post by wannabe » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:28 pm

It is good to know that you have your finger on the pulse of the GSP breeders that are producing the 14,000 pups a year.

If Charlie hasn't seen it, then it must not be happening. :roll:
Even when they do it's not a fault that's easily hidden so it's not very likely that anyone is going to get a pup with a bad bite unless they aren't smart enough to look at the pup's teeth before they take it home.
Do bad bites always show at 7-8 weeks?
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Post by WildRose » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:21 pm

wannabe wrote:It is good to know that you have your finger on the pulse of the GSP breeders that are producing the 14,000 pups a year.

If Charlie hasn't seen it, then it must not be happening. :roll:
Even when they do it's not a fault that's easily hidden so it's not very likely that anyone is going to get a pup with a bad bite unless they aren't smart enough to look at the pup's teeth before they take it home.
Do bad bites always show at 7-8 weeks?
Always and Never are two words intelligent people don't often use when talking about genetics. There are far too many variables for them to apply.

Nope they don't ALWAYS show up at weaning, but if there's going to be such a significant bad bite that it would ever affect the dog negatively it sure would; Most of them however will.

Bad hips are something else. It's quite possible for a dog to get a pass with a Good or even Excellent rating at 2 years old and still require hip surgery due to CDJD at age five or later. Conversely it's also quite possible for a dog with a dysplastic rating to live a full and productive pain free life without ever developing CDJD.
If Charlie hasn't seen it, then it must not be happening.
I certainly never said that. However I've had GSP's for over thirty years. How long have you had them? I've owned over a hundred of them for at least one full year. How many have you owned for that same time period? I've hunted behind them on 13 different species of wild bird in 11 states and several foreign countries; can you say the same? I've trialed in NM,TX,KS,MO,IA, NE and judged trials in four different states in the last year alone seeing hundreds, and hundreds of GSP's including most of the dogs discussed in this topic. Have you? I've discussed breeding gsp's with other breeders from at least 20 states this year. Have you?

I also get calls and emails from 300-500 people looking for GSP's each year. Consequently I know what people are looking for, I know what they are worried about and I learn where they are getting their information. I read extensively on what's going on within the breed from every source I can find and have a good enough education and experience to critically evaluate all that information and put it into context. Can you say the same?

Maybe Jerry was right and we just can't have a reasoned and intelligent discussion of the topic. CR
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