Bad Bites

wannabe
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Post by wannabe » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:48 am

Charlie,

If you don't believe Vern, Chip, Dave, Jerry, or me, then why don't you give some of your colleagues a call and ask them whether any of the dogs on their string with bad bites have been bred. Why don't you start at the beginning of the alphabet...

It doesn't take MANY breeders to affect future generations of a breed, especially in a small arena like field trialing.

BTW,
Maybe Jerry was right and we just can't have a reasoned and intelligent discussion of the topic. CR
The only reasoned and intelligent discussion that you have ever participated in on an Internet message board has been with someone that agrees with and believes everything that you post.
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Post by Greg Jennings » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:53 am

You two are taking personal shots at each other. Please stop.

Best regards, Greg J.

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Post by Holden05 » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:42 am

All I can say is Wildrose knows his business when talking GSP's, training, and breedings. I'd take darn near anything he says as fact. I've learned a lot from his experiences and knowledge. Stand up guy who knows what the heck he's doing.

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Post by WildRose » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:31 am

Greg I'm not taking personal shots at anyone. Wannabe is takign shots at the entire breed. I've asked some direct questions as to his experience and offered mine. He seems unwilling or incapable of answering them. Yet he continues to take shots at the breed as a whole.

I think it's a topic worthy of discussion but to have an intelligent and reasoned discussion requires more than cheap shots. I know some of these dogs are being bred heavily, some not so much and I'm pretty darn careful about what dogs I breed to or that I will buy pups from since it's not a problem I want in my lines. However breeding to these dogs is a choice that obviously a lot of people are willing to make. All dogs have faults somewhere or at least things that you'd like to seem improved upon. At least with bad bites it's something that can be relatively easily screened for because the flaw is physically obvious. CR
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Post by Dave Quindt » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:56 am

Charlie my friend,

We may not have a problem with bad bites in the breed, but we certainly have a problem within many (most?) of our major trial lines these days. Even if the rate of bad bites within trial dogs is the same as the "general population", we are failing the breed.

Go back to the original post; when someone like Vern (with a longer history with trial-bred GSPs than the rest of us, even you) mentions that he's hearing about big name trial dogs and breeders that are breeding to, if not producing, dogs with bad bites the rest of us should take notice. And Vern isn't the only guy I know with 30+ years experience with trial dogs and trialers who's made the same observation; breeding a dog with a bad bite is no longer taboo among many trialers.
Bites are very obvious. If someone chooses to breed to a dog with a bad bite, well that's their choice. Like many genetic traits bites are polygenetic and recessive so you don't know with any certainty whether or not they will appear in the next or subsequent generations just because one parent has an off bite.
Well Charlie, the last dog I know of with a bad bite had a perfect bite until about 12 months, and then it went bad. This was from an amateur breeder who did everything right; sire and dam (and their siblings) had good bites and at least 3 of the 4 grandparents I'm certain had good bites.

Regardless, the ONLY way to reduce bad bites is to refuse to breed to dogs with bad bites and dogs that produce pups with bad bites. Is this foolproof? Nope, but it's the best option we have. And yes, I do know of dogs with such bad teeth due to crossbites where they can only be fed mush, or have had teeth pulled to prevent breakage and infection. We owe our senior dogs a better life than that.

And for the record, I know of at least 1 litter that recently came about due to the publicity of a FC from this board. Owner of the female didn't know that the sire has a crossbite, and when informed of this (after the litter hit the ground) was amazed that the owner of the sire would stud out a dog with a bad bite, or at least didn't disclose it. The general public assumes that trialers, who lecture them about the superiority of a trial-bred dog, know better than to breed a dog with a bad bite.

And let's face it; it's not just about bad bites. If a breeder is willing to accept bad bites "to give them the best chance of producing winners" what else are they willing to accept? I find it hard to believe that someone willing to sneak a pointer in is going to worry about bad bites. There's been a lot of cr*p bred into our breed under the guise of "producing winners" and "improving the breed".

Now, there are folks who'd rather these threads not appear. I've gotten a few emails about how "this needs to be kept private","this is giving us a bad name" and "this is giving anti-trialers ammo".

Well guess what folks, we've earned it!

JMO,
Dave

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Post by WildRose » Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:08 pm

Well Dave I don't know why you are lecturing me about it. As you know I had one male out of one of the lines people are concerned about that developed a bad bite too. He did so about a year of age. He's no longer a member of the GSP gene pool.

Much of what you say has merit and I'm certainly one who is and has been aware of some of and had to deal with the problems in some trial lines for a long time.
Regardless, the ONLY way to reduce bad bites is to refuse to breed to dogs with bad bites and dogs that produce pups with bad bites.
In order to avoid these problems in my own lines I avoid breeding to those dogs, it's pretty simple. I won't breed to anything I know to a reasonable level of certainty has had pointer slipped in fraudulently, and I won't breed to a dog with a bad bite or that is known for throwing them. We can't undo what's been done, as breeders however we assume the mantle of responsibility for our own dogs.

Bashing a whole breed with inuendo on an internet bulletin board doesn't solve anything, taking positive actions with our own dogs does.

As for the dogs with bites so bad they had to be fed Mush... . Dave I've never seen anything like that so while it's possible I suppose, it must be incredibly rare and is indeed a bit dubious. The only thing I've ever seen approaching that was a dog that had had a broken jaw that wasn't set and healed improperly. It wasn't even a GSP!

At any rate it's up to the owners of such dogs to do the responsible thing and remove them from the gene pool as well.

I honestly can't see what it is you guys think is going to be accomplished by taking this topic in this direction.

Would you guys propose we have a conformation inspection requirement before dogs can be run in a national trial? Are we going to start asking our trial judges to determine which dogs to place based on a specific conformation standard at field trials? Do you wish to instill a breed warden system in the GSPCA and NGSPA to determine which dogs can and cannot be bred? Or do we just want to keep slurring the inuendos around on the internet? CR
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Post by wannabe » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:04 pm

WildRose wrote:Would you guys propose we have a conformation inspection requirement before dogs can be run in a national trial? Are we going to start asking our trial judges to determine which dogs to place based on a specific conformation standard at field trials? Do you wish to instill a breed warden system in the GSPCA and NGSPA to determine which dogs can and cannot be bred? CR
Like Dave said, it would be a lot easier to just quit breeding to dogs with bad bites.
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Post by WildRose » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:18 pm

Wannabe I asked you quite a few direct questions above which you seem unwilling or unable to answer. Cheap shots towards a whole breed coming from someone with a blank profile don't lend much credibility to the poster.

I can't tell that you even own a gsp, much less breed them or have any significant understanding of or experience with the breed.

How do you propose we stop people from breeding to these un named dogs with bad bites. How do we identify them and remove them from the gene pool? CR
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Post by Dave Quindt » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:30 pm

Charlie,

I need to make this quick, but.........
I honestly can't see what it is you guys think is going to be accomplished by taking this topic in this direction.
I've gotten 3 emails from folks wanting to know how to determine a bad bite, because they didn't know what a bad bite was and how to determine it. If only 1 potential breeder or puppy buyer wises up and asks the question, this is worth it.
At any rate it's up to the owners of such dogs to do the responsible thing and remove them from the gene pool as well.
In theory, I agree with you. But this is the approach that's been taken up to this point and where has it gotten us?
Would you guys propose we have a conformation inspection requirement before dogs can be run in a national trial?
Bad bites have become acceptable among many GSP trialers; changing this will take some serious leadership and forcing people into disclosing info about their dogs they'd rather keep quiet.

I'd be perfectly happy to see a health exam for all dogs competing at a national event. Dog is reviewed by a vet from outside the breed and a field person with conformation experience. Dogs would be noted for physical attributes and faults, and the information published, but would have no effect on the results of the event.

If that's what it has come to, so be it.

I've said what I have to say - I'm done.

Dave

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Post by WildRose » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:39 pm

In theory, I agree with you. But this is the approach that's been taken up to this point and where has it gotten us?
Dave in the almost 40 years I've been associated with the breed I've seen inumerable changes. For the most part those changes have been for the better.

I'm pretty sure we've had people breeding GSP's throughout that time frame and even from the earliest days of the breed who produced dogs neither you, nor I would want to own, nor would we knowingly or willingly breed to them.

Let's say you can name 8 dogs being heavily bred today that have bad bites. You toss around a figure of 14,000 GSP's being born every year. Do you really think those eight dogs are affecting the majority of the 14,000? I doubt it.

You would apparently hand the decision making process for who does get bred over to a small handful of individuals. That type of system wreaks of politics and favoritism and would be the downfall of a great breed within just a few generations. It would be impossible to eliminate personal bias and "good ole boy back slapping" from influencing how those "exams" would be written up.

I think if you guys want to actually accomplish something of merit you need to pony up and name names. Anything else is just inuendo and rumor insulting the breed as a whole. CR
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Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:47 pm

I agree with Charley. There are 4 pages on this post and I still don't know what dogs we are even talking about. I don't know if this is sour grapes because of a bad experience with a certain dog or line, but if this discussion continues I think somebody needs to name names or let this dead dog lie. We all understand that we shouldn't breed bad bites because of the aforementioned reasons. But what about the backyard breeder who thinks he has a great dog because he is out of some NC, and now he is going to breed that dog. If we are that concerned with this issue, then I think that should be our real concern. Somebody will probably get bent out of shape, but if you're going to talk about 'em, then tell us who you are talking about, for the sake of the people who don't know the dogs you are talking about except on their dog's pedigree!!!
Sorry if I ruffled some feathers, as I didn't mean to, but I had to voice my opinion. As most of us who own and love our GSP's, we should all be concerned about the breed's well being , and should appreciate people as dedicated as Charley Rose, and others who have posted here.

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Post by Margaret » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:13 pm

I commend Dave on his stance on bad bites. It's no use sweeping problems under the mat.

Here is a link to a site showing bad bites

http://www.dentalvet.com/patients/ortho ... ontics.htm

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Post by Dave Quindt » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:15 pm

You would apparently hand the decision making process for who does get bred over to a small handful of individuals. That type of system wreaks of politics and favoritism and would be the downfall of a great breed within just a few generations. It would be impossible to eliminate personal bias and "good ole boy back slapping" from influencing how those "exams" would be written up.
Huh?

The decision making process over who gets bred wouldn't change a bit. The exams would be informational only, would be done on the grounds at Eureka in front of God and Country. The goal would be to gain an accurate representation of the health status of the breed and of individual dogs run at the highest level of field competition.

If NAVHDA can review the coat and bite of every single NA and UT dog they run, I think we can manage.

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Post by WildRose » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:28 pm

The decision making process over who gets bred wouldn't change a bit. The exams would be informational only, would be done on the grounds at Eureka in front of God and Country.
Right Dave and who owns, bred, and handled the dogs could never have any bearing on how those "exams" are written up just like all judging is totally without bias... .

I own 22 adult GSP's right now. Anyone that wants to is more than welcome to inspect their bites at any time. I won't sit around at my computer bashing nameless dogs in an attempt to "improve things", I do so by carefully selecting my breeding stock and culling anything that doesn't measure up.

I won't justify other's choices to breed bad bites, and I sure got burned with one of them and won't have any more from that line so I at least have room to speak on this topic. Individual breeders taking responsibility for what they produce is what improves a breed, not inuendo and rumor. CR
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pttrrff

Post by pttrrff » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:51 pm

Why not name the questionable dogs that you are aware of here for all to see?

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Post by wannabe » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:33 pm

WildRose wrote:How do you propose we stop people from breeding to these un named dogs with bad bites. How do we identify them and remove them from the gene pool? CR
Well, you can start by answering Mike's question and giving us the pedigree of the dog that you bought that ended up with a bad bite.
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Post by WildRose » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:25 pm

Fair enough wannabe. I didn't buy one with a bad bite. He came from a litter that I bred out of Magnum and Cleo, he was the only one out of 11 puppies from two litters by Magnum and Cleo, and a third litter by Bullett and Cleo to have a bad bite.

I've had 2 other puppies with bad bites in the last twenty years. They were from completely different lines and not closely related to any of the National CH's that Dave and Big oak were referring to. I register seven to 12 litters per year and have since about 95 averaging 9 pups per litter. Do the math. If bad bites were prevalent or even a significant minority in the breed over all I think I would have seen about twenty or thirty times that many in my own breedings.

Now how about you answer my questions. CR
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Post by Casper » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:59 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:
You would apparently hand the decision making process for who does get bred over to a small handful of individuals. That type of system wreaks of politics and favoritism and would be the downfall of a great breed within just a few generations. It would be impossible to eliminate personal bias and "good ole boy back slapping" from influencing how those "exams" would be written up.
Huh?

The decision making process over who gets bred wouldn't change a bit. The exams would be informational only, would be done on the grounds at Eureka in front of God and Country. The goal would be to gain an accurate representation of the health status of the breed and of individual dogs run at the highest level of field competition.

If NAVHDA can review the coat and bite of every single NA and UT dog they run, I think we can manage.
If this was implimented shouldnt it be for all dogs who has received a FC, AFC, or an American Field CH title? These are all dogs of breeding quality are they not?

What of other conformational issues? If a system like this came about shouldnt dogs that are to be bred (all intact dogs) simply have an exam done just to note of any noticeable flaws for future breeders to look up. This way the "backyard breeder' has a resource to go to when they plan their breeding(s).

I dont know much about breeding but I sure like the discussion. I learn allot when it comes to some of the finer points that I should be considering when and if I breed.

Rodger

Post by Rodger » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:53 pm

Last Spring we bred Hud to another Magnum x Cleo female named Jazz. Prior to breeding I had talked to Charlie as he had produced Jazz and to his credit informed me of the one pup that had a bite issue. I personally inspected Jazz's bite as I am concerned about not contributing to the problem and found it to be a perfect scissors bite. Not only was her bite perfect but IMO she was the total package confirmation wise. We liked her so much that we decided to keep a male pup from the litter for ourselves.

Now I apologize that my camera is not set up for close up shots and they could be better, but here are a couple of pics of our 8 month old Jet's bite. He just recently had all his adult teeth come in and as best I can tell has a natural scissors bite like mom and dad.

Image

Image

I don't know of any pups in that litter that had any bite related issues.

Reading this thread has prompted me to post these pictures and I intend to update Hud's web page to include close-ups of his bite as well for all to inspect and judge for themselves. People should be able to feel confident in the type of dogs they will be producing.

Rodger

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Post by AHGSP » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:00 pm

Perhaps it is high time to add a requirement for a "Conformation component" to receive a FC, AFC? I don't mean going around a ring either, just an inspection for the basics. Matter of fact, if the dog can get it done in the field enough to be a Winner, the Teeth/Bite would be about the only thing left requiring a check.

On the other side of the coin though, I also feel VERY STRONGLY that their should be a required "Field component", before a dog could receive a CH title.

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Post by TrueBlu Shorthairs » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:28 am

OK, throw around a bunch of accusations and don't name names. Don't be a coward. Name names!! As I told you Dave, I can only control what I do and what I breed. If so concerned with anything pertaining to the breed, standard, nationals, etc. then I must get involved. What are you doing Dave other than posting on this forum? I don't know the answer so I am asking an honest question. Are you on the GSPCA board, are you an area director, do you attend the GSPCA delegates meetings at nationals and allow your voice to be heard? Posting on this or other forums changes NOTHING. Are you your own club's delegate to the GSPCA?

I've had no bad bites in my few litters, only 6. I scrutinize who I breed far more than most. I have turned down far more breedings due to bites, conformation, temperament, pedigreee, etc. than I have accepted. With three kids and a more than full time job, plus e GSPs I am running in trials, nationals, species, etc. plus judging and being on my club's trial committee I am doing all I can do at this time. How 'bout you Dave?

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Post by nrcgsp » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:28 am

Charlie, wish more people would be brave like you and just give the breeding. We have been fortunate in breeding and not had bite problems, will we occassionally have one that crops out, yes, and we sell them as a hunting dog, limited registration, etc. with that issue known. We have NEVER sold a dog knowing it had a bite problem and NOT informed or tried to BURN anyone with bite problems. We have also had our share of problems from buying dogs from other people. We bought a dog who went back to General Norman breeding who not only ended up with a bite problem but other confirmation problems as well. Not only did this breeder do NOTHING to correct it, but we had sold the dog before some of the issue came up and we were correcting a problem that did NOT come from our breeding. We purchased a female that we were going to add to our breeding program (and to be perfectly honest I don't remember all of her lines so to be fair I will not even try to list it because if I list it incorrectly that would be UNFAIR to the people who had NO part in the breeding) any way, this female turned out to NOT be what we had been told or seen in pictures and due to that, we sold her and DID not use her for breeding, and told the people we sold her to exactly why we chose to NOT breed her. Unfortuantely even when you TRY to be very selective and carefully examine the dogs that you breed your females to or in the females that are bred to your male, problems will come up. If it is in every pup, obviously it isn't a breedable cross, when it comes up in 1 pup out of 10 litters do you say that dog is not breedable? Or is it coming from something in the background of the cross? Not trying to be snide or hateful, but do you call someone an irresponsible breeder for that? Maybe a whole new can of worms.
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Post by WildRose » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:55 am

Nancy you and Randy acted just like good responsible breeders should when we discussed the "bite" issue with Hank. For the record Randy and Nancy also agreed with me when I told them that as much as I liked Hank I would cull him from the breeding pool. We all loved to watch him run, and he placed or won in almost every trial he was entered in. But he developed a horrible bite after he turned a year old so we didn't want to breed him. Doing so would have not only made me look bad as a breeder but it would have also reflected negatively on the Coffelt's.

Honest breeders talk openly with each other about problems and potential problems. That way we can both guard against problems and strengthen positives in our programs.

Yes we are competitors, and everytime our dogs are entered in the same stake we're all there to win, but not at the expense of the breed or the sport, or good sportsmanship. CR
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Post by nrcgsp » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:06 pm

Thanks Charlie,
I sure wish we could still watch Hank run! He is probably giving his dad a run for the money now! Like you said it is about better the breed and the sport and unfortunately it doesn't always show up at 8 wks and you just have to try to make it right for the future and let the dogs do what they love, and that is to hunt and be your buddy, but not breeding them.
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Post by WildRose » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:46 pm

Wannabe it's about time you showed up and answered the questions I posed to you. You've spent a great deal of time on this thread throwing stones and your questions have been answered.

If you actually have an interest in GSP's then by all means tell us who you are and answer the questions I posed.

If you aren't up to it, that's ok, that will just make it clear that indeed your only interest in this thread was breed bashing. CR
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Post by Richard *UT* » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:13 pm

Roger,
Interesting that you would post those pics of Hud's Bite. I Had PMed a member here about your dog Hud and about breeding to him. So I appreciate you posting those pics. I will be in contact with you in a couple years to do some serrious tallking but till then, Keep winning and Thanks.

Now Wannabe You asked a lot of direct questions and got direct answers. Now Your turn to answer questions. Otherwise some of us are going to keep your lack of answers in mind when you post in the Future.
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Post by TrueBlu Shorthairs » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:00 pm

UT, when it comes that time, you can also feel free to call me about Hud and his lineage. I can tell you more info than you will care to know about Hud's mama and daddy, grandparents, and even great grandparents. No bad bites anywhere in his lineage. Further, and not only because I bred him, he is absolutely one of the finest dogs I have ever had the opportunity to hunt over or see at an event. Whether hunting, trialing, or testing, he is a great dog. His wins may never show how great he truly is, but if you spent any time with the dog, you'd see it quickly.

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Post by Rodger » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:35 pm

Roger,
Interesting that you would post those pics of Hud's Bite. I Had PMed a member here about your dog Hud and about breeding to him. So I appreciate you posting those pics. I will be in contact with you in a couple years to do some serrious tallking but till then, Keep winning and Thanks.
Richard, Actually those bite pictures are of our new puppy out of Hud x Jazz. I haven’t taken any of Hud yet as I wanted to respond to Charlie’s comments made about the Magum x Cleo pup he owned that had a bite issue. I thought it better to show a pup with adult teeth whose dam was from that same breeding. I also recognize that bites are a concern as they well should be and being that I don’t trust the rumor mill, intend to post my studs bite pictures on his site for all to judge. I first need to figure out the proper setting for a good close up shot as those posted earlier did not show the detail I was looking for. :( I look forward to talking to you down the road though. Thanks.

In any event this thread has turned into somewhat of a witch hunt to name dogs with bite problems. Personally I don’t think it needs to go there. What’s important is that this discussion hopefully generates thought amongst the breed fancy and makes them consider such issues when selecting a breeding pair. I don’t believe breeding dogs is anywhere near a science. Some faults can still show up from two animals that never exhibited the trait, however when it’s obvious and right in front of you, use good judgment, no ribbon or trophy is worth having to cull a bunch of pups.

Blake, I still think you could of cut us a little more slack last weekend. You judges can be way too picky at times. :roll: :lol:

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Post by ezzy333 » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:03 pm

This post started about bad bites and widened into serious faults. This is a good subject.

We need to be aware that owning, producing, or loving a dog with serious faults is not a personal problem that needs defending.

Breeding a dog/dogs with serious faults or that have a history of producing dogs with serious faults is a personal problem that probably can not be defended.

Education is one way to correct the problem and absolutly refusing to buy a pup from dogs with known problems whether it shows up in the individual pup ornot is another way of helping to correct it.

We are seeing a lot of personal accusations that are out of line and a lot of personal defending that is unnecessary. This is a problem in all breeds that occurs when we narrow our opinion of what a good dog is to just one or two attributes instead of looking at the complete dog.

The basis of having a great GSP is to have a GSP. That means a dog that meets all requirements of the breed standard. If it doesn't meet that breed standard it can be argued that you don't have a GSP but rather a nice dog. Once that is accomplished then we can breed for great performance of the GSP. And when we find that dog that meets those requirements we have a great GSP. When we have a dog that meets some of those requirements but not all of them we have a nice hunting dog or pet but not what anyone should look for when breeding to improve the breed.

I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue that all of our HOF dogs should not be DC's. We can have great trial dogs and great show dogs but the Dual Champions are the great GSP's that should grace our walls.

And this same arguement applys to every other breed.

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Post by wannabe » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:29 pm

wannabe wrote:
WildRose wrote:Bites are very obvious. If someone chooses to breed to a dog with a bad bite, well that's their choice. Like many genetic traits bites are polygenetic and recessive so you don't know with any certainty whether or not they will appear in the next or subsequent generations just because one parent has an off bite.CR
Another reason not to buy a GSP. :roll:
I did a quick look at the entire thread and this is the only negative comment regarding GSP's that I made. I really wasn't bashing the breed as much as I was bashing a GSP breeder's philosophy on breeding dogs with bad bites.
IMO, if a dog has a bad bite, it just isn't worth the chance.

edit: I added an apostrophy to the word "breeder's" Maybe that will make it easier to understand.
Last edited by wannabe on Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by WildRose » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:10 pm

Selective memory dysfunction?
The breeder was standing a few yards away and he knew what I was up to, so he asked me how the dog's bite looked. I shook my head and said, "undershot, just like his sire and grandsire". BTW, it was a GSP out of field trial breeding.
Wannabe you've taken shots at me and field trial GSP's and the breed as a whole. You've demanded that I "name names" and I did.
I really wasn't bashing the breed as much as I was bashing a GSP breeders philosophy on breeding dogs with bad bites.
If that was actually your intent you need to work on your writing skills because what you did was bash the whole breed.

I asked you some direct questions which you still seem either unable or unwilling to answer.

1)Who are you? At least the rest of us on this thread have the decency to identify ourselves, or we're well known. Not hiding behind some annonymous internet login name.

2)Have you ever owned GSP's? How many?

3)Do you breed GSP's.

4)Have you had a bunch of trouble with bad bites in your own dogs from GSP trial lines? If so what lines.

As is obvious this is a pretty sensitive topic. Rather than slinging mud at the whole breed, or at trial bred GSP's in general pony up, meet the same standard you demanded of me. CR
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Post by Blue Dawn Kennel » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:27 pm

I'm done!!! Shouldn't of posted in the first place. Good bye.
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Post by wannabe » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:34 pm

Charlie,

I think you need to work on your reading skills. 8)

Though I have owned, trained, hunted, handled, scouted, judged, and been braced with a lot of really nice shorthairs, I doubt if I will ever own another one.
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Post by Dave Quindt » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:01 pm

The GSPCA's own member health survey shows that 6.2% of the 3,200 dogs surveyed had bite problems (bad bite, extra/missing teeth, cleft palate, etc). Now before anyone spouts off about this just being "show folks" of the respondents 38% said they field trialed, 46% showed and 50% hunt tested.

All of these experts, and no one thinks to check the breed club's own health survey? I sent mine in, did you?

http://gspca.org/Health/GSP_Report/GSP_ ... tm#tableA2

The only other place with any sort of empirical data is NAVHDA's test results; a random sample (200 dogs) from their '06 test results for GSPs show that 12% of the GSPs tested showed a bite problem (bad bite, extra/missing teeth). (Yes, I was too lazy to count through all 700+ test results).

So what have we learned? Apparently there are sections of the country where every GSP has a bad bite, because there are sections of the country where folks see a dog with a bad bite once in a blue moon.

We've also learned that recessive traits don't apply to field trialers; still trying to digest that one.

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Post by griffgirl » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:28 am

I COMEND YOU ALL FOR STICKING UP FOR THE BREED OF YOUR DOGS......I dont always post here but have been following this thread.

This same topic came up on another board about WPG's and many said it was ok to have a bad bite so long as the dog HUNTS.

They asked me if the looks were more important than the dog hunting.I TOLD THEM I WANTED THE WHOLE DOG not just part of the dog.Spending that kind of money on a pup I didnt want problems right from the get go.So yes it was important to me to have both,looks and the hunt.

Theres one poster on here that also goes on that board that said it was ok to BREED the dogs so long as the dog hunts and field trials. :roll: but I see he's not piping in on this thread.So maybe he's following along this thread to see the reasoning behind what real BREEDERS believe.

Again I comend you all for breeding the best.......

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Post by TrueBlu Shorthairs » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:04 am

Wannabe, why make an attempt at a blanket statement about GSP breeders when you obviously don't own, breed, or know our breed?

Not to mirror Charlie, but how many trials have you attended, do you show GSPs, own GSPs, breed GSPs. Until you have experience might not make statements based in NO facts.

I am a breeder and competitor and I personally take offense.

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Post by wannabe » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:57 am

Blake,

I do not understand why you would take offense, because I do not recall you making any statements in favor of taking the chance of breeding a dog with a bad bite.
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Post by ACooper » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:12 am

I have a very nice female that has a very undershot bite, out of MRT and whos mother is out of Magnum, It really is a shame as she is a very nice dog other than that.

Maybe I have had very bad luck but I have owned six gsps in the last 8 years with undershot bites. All were had good bites when young but developed the problem with maturity.
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Post by WildRose » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:20 am

Mosty what it seems we've learned here is that Wannabe wants to toss around accusations while hiding behind an annonymous login name.

We've learned that according to one survey as many as 12% of GSP's don't have a perfect bite.

We've learned that Dave still wants to point the finger at "field trialers" and "National champions" but lacks the fortitude to name any of the dogs or even the lines.

Cooper, buddy you've had one heck of a run of bad luck. If all eight of those dogs were from the same line I'm hoping you've learned to avoid it in the future!

Inspite of Wannabe's insinuation, I can't see where anyone is justifying breeding to dogs with bad bites or saying it's a good idea.

In fact I'm the only one that's admitted to having had the problem and I eliminated it. CR
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Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:32 am

Mostly what we are learning now is what each of you think about someone else's post and absolutely nothing about bad bites or what could be done about the problem. Unless someone has something of value to add I hope the thread will die with absolutely nothing being accomplished. None of us are interested in what any of you think about someone else.

Bites are the subject. And that did expand to severe faults. We can lock the thread if all of you can't stay on subject and forget the personnalities that you are all trying to exploit.

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Post by WildRose » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:48 am

Ezzy it's just more than a little frustrating to have people toss around blanket accusations of all field trial dogs or an entire breed. It's made a lot worse when it's done so by nameless, faceless people who appear to have no interest in the topic other than breed bashing.

If there is going to be any value to this thread, then these guys need to pony up, identify themselves, and name the specific dogs they want to indict as being the root of the problem. Otherwise it's simply internet breed and venue bashing. CR
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Post by ACooper » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:54 am

Charlie I mostly agree that I have had very bad luck, this is almost half the dogs I have bought in the past ten or so years. I have had three dogs out of the same stud all three had bad bites. I still have one of these three a male because other than bite he is a very good dog, but he wont be bred. The MRT female is for sale and is a super nice dog. I dont really like to keep dogs with bad bites it really bothers me. I also realize that this problem is just as likely from the dam as it is the stud.

I love GSPS and see no reason to switch breeds I have owned shorthairs for 15 years broke my first one when I was only 16 years old. I absolutly love this breed, but it seems that bites have become a much bigger problem over the last five years. Maybe it has just been more noticeable to me.

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Post by WildRose » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:36 am

Well Cooper if I'd had your luck, no doubt it would hit a lot closer to home with me as well. It really tore me up when Hank's bite turned out the way it did. The dog had huge potential and so many great attributes that I'd hoped one day he'd contribute to the breed.

However I'm a realist, and as a breeder I have to accept the fact that they just aren't all "breeding quality". That doesn't at all detract from their usefulness in the field, or how they can please us, they just don't need to be bred.

But think about it. How many breeders would even begin to assert that every pup they produce is "breeding quality".... . CR
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Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:42 am

Charlie,

I understand frustrations but I didn't see a lot of problems till you and Tru Blue and a couple of others decided you needed to defend yourself while blaming someone else and also defending the GSP's. They do not need defending. They are what they are and they like every other breed have physical faults that should be addressed and not defended. We need to be aware of some of the problems and we all need to agree they are problems that need to be watched for and corrected when we see them.

There is no one on this board that thinks the breed as a whole is bad so you are wasting our time defending your percieved blanket inditement of the breed. It just isn't necessary as most of us didn't even see that.

When a person gets offended he needs to look in a mirror and do something about it. No one can offend you but you yourself. Sorry when you or anyone else gets offended but I can't do a thing about it since its your problem.

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Post by hubweims » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm

WildRose wrote:Mosty what it seems we've learned here is that Wannabe wants to toss around accusations while hiding behind an annonymous login name.

We've learned that according to one survey as many as 12% of GSP's don't have a perfect bite.

We've learned that Dave still wants to point the finger at "field trialers" and "National champions" but lacks the fortitude to name any of the dogs or even the lines.

Cooper, buddy you've had one heck of a run of bad luck. If all eight of those dogs were from the same line I'm hoping you've learned to avoid it in the future!

Inspite of Wannabe's insinuation, I can't see where anyone is justifying breeding to dogs with bad bites or saying it's a good idea.

In fact I'm the only one that's admitted to having had the problem and I eliminated it. CR

don't take offense to this Charlie, but next time someone else on this forum gets "frustrated," defends their breed, or has a heated discussion i think you need to remember this thread (and some others that you have been involved in). if it's not okay for anyone else to do it, then it shouldn't be okay for you to either. this board and its members seem, for the most part, to be fair and balanced. i am recalling a conversation concerning blue weims where you were really quick to jump in and state that this is why weims have problems, "you guys are turning people off of weims," if you were in the market for a dog a weim wouldn't be your choice after reading the conversation going on. well, you guys are doing the same thing here. is it supposed to be okay just b/c you guys are talking gsp's (your dog of choice). i think you are a very good member on here. you display a lot of knowledge, passion, experience, and joy when discussing dogs and training. i personally have learned a great deal from you, particularly on altering dogs and the research you referenced. also, i don't have a problem with the thread. heated discussions need to be had as it is often the only way to move forward for the betterment of the dogs and their owners. however, i only ask that next time you not be too quick to judge and remember this thread when the discussion is on other dogs, their breeders, or owners when one of these hot buttons come up.

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Post by Debf » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:14 pm

I understand frustrations but I didn't see a lot of problems till you and Tru Blue and a couple of others decided you needed to defend yourself while blaming someone else and also defending the GSP's. They do not need defending. They are what they are and they like every other breed have physical faults that should be addressed and not defended. We need to be aware of some of the problems and we all need to agree they are problems that need to be watched for and corrected when we see them.

There is no one on this board that thinks the breed as a whole is bad so you are wasting our time defending your percieved blanket inditement of the breed. It just isn't necessary as most of us didn't even see that.
This is absolutely correct. Excellent post Ezzy.

Overall this has been just a great discussion. Every breed has issues to deal with and I commend people willing to challenge the breed owners/enthusists as a whole to look at these & try to find ways to reduce incidence of the problem.

Thanks for an extremely interesting discussion.

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Post by WildRose » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:22 pm

Ezzy it's not about being personally offended, it's simply about accountability. Internet blogs and bulletin boards give very small people who hide behind anonymous names the opportunity to toss around a whole lot of bad information and/or to intentionally do harm without any fear of being held accountable. They get on places like this, sling the mud around and stir up the pot then go back and hide under their little rock and snicker.

Many of us participating on this thread have spent a great deal of our personal wealth, and many thousands of working days to produce the dogs we have in our breed and are awfully proud of what we have with good reason.

Dave indicts every one of our 3 national ch's (NGSPA, GSPCA, NGPDA) by saying at least two of them every year since 01 have had horrible bites since he won't name them. How would you feel if you owned one of these dogs that in fact has a perfect bite when you read that? By making blanket statements instead of having the cahones to be specific it ends up trashing the whole breed.

Even if it were a matter of some idiot saying "your dogs suck", that wouldn't offend me, it would just be laughable. CR
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Post by nrcgsp » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:26 pm

How would you feel if you owned one of these dogs that in fact has a perfect bite when you read that?

I know exactly how that would feel, after reading this thread, think I'll stay off from it now.
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Post by wannabe » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:56 pm

WildRose wrote: However Jerry has a pretty good point. Bites are very obvious. If someone chooses to breed to a dog with a bad bite, well that's their choice. Like many genetic traits bites are polygenetic and recessive so you don't know with any certainty whether or not they will appear in the next or subsequent generations just because one parent has an off bite.

It's not like anyone is going to pawn off pups with alligator mouths on the unsuspecting unless the buyer is too dumb to look at their teeth!CR
This has been a very informative thread, but IMHO, we have probably beat the subject to death. I just want to go on record as saying, "breeding a dog with a bad bite is a bad idea".
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Post by hubweims » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:03 pm

wannabe wrote:
WildRose wrote: However Jerry has a pretty good point. Bites are very obvious. If someone chooses to breed to a dog with a bad bite, well that's their choice. Like many genetic traits bites are polygenetic and recessive so you don't know with any certainty whether or not they will appear in the next or subsequent generations just because one parent has an off bite.

It's not like anyone is going to pawn off pups with alligator mouths on the unsuspecting unless the buyer is too dumb to look at their teeth!CR
This has been a very informative thread, but IMHO, we have probably beat the subject to death. I just want to go on record as saying, "breeding a dog with a bad bite is a bad idea".

i agree with your breeding philosophy on bites. now, not trying to call you out, wannabe, but i think that naming some dog names would be beneficial. this site sees way more guests than it does members. so, that means that there are way more people just reading instead of joining our conversations. i would assume that a good many of these guests are in the dog market. many are probably willing to pay good $$$ for a good dog. this thread and discussions has been very educational for many. you have succeeded in now everyone who has read this thread and is in the market for a pup is gonna be looking at the parents bite and the pups. by naming some names of dogs that may be marketed as far superior dogs and bloodline (but actually don't meet standards), you may be helping someone from making a horrible mistake, investment, and heartache.

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