Upland retrievers?

tdhusker · Post by **tdhusker** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:11 pm

I'm a 45yr old upland hunter who grew up hunting on a farm in NE and still hunt pheasant and sharptails many days a season. I am not knowledgeable about dog breeds, only having hunted with mostly labs and several GSP's. I've only owned labs because in the past I hunted waterfowl quite a bit of the time. In the last ten years or so, I only hunt over water a few days a season and my old lab perished last year so I haven't hunted on the river at all this year.

I bought an English Setter last year and he is a far better upland dog for our wide open sparse cover, covering much more ground than any lab could hope to. His stamina and performance in the field is very good but he is no retriever. Rather than try to make something out of him he is not, I would like to buy a retrieving dog that is fast and has great stamina, can cover a good deal of ground, yet can water retrieve in cold weather. I really don't care if the dog has pointing abilities, I want speed and endurance, tenacity on wounded pheasants...then least important; cold water retrieving. More than anything else, a pheasant/dove/sharptail retrieving machine that can hunt in hot weather without dying yet can do cold water retrieving work. Is there such a thing? Do I need to forget about the cold water part?

Coach529 · Post by **Coach529** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:15 pm

If you eliminate the cold water stuff, I would stay with the English Stter and just have a pro trainer force fetch the dog.

If you stay with the cold water stuff I would go with a Wirehair.

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:23 pm

I am definitely NOT one of the experts here, but for what it is worth would a GWP or Griffon fit the bill described? I think they do well retrieving. Water is no problem, and they should handle Nebraska cold.

On another matter, your Setter should have no problem retrieving with the right training. You've had labs for so long that you have a high standard based upon natural retrievers.

tdhusker · Post by **tdhusker** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:51 pm

Maybe this should be a different topic but I am a bit concerned about force-fetching my setter. He is such a timid dog I wonder how he would respond?

I have a book by Dave Walker that outlines training setter pups to retrieve by holding the dummy in their mouth. He would just cower when he saw the dummy after a while. I have no experience with such a timid animal and worry about having him force-fetch trained. Anybody have experience with setters and force-fetching?

And finally, I recognize he will never be a tenacious retriever and I'm not sure I want him to be. He is very good at what he does now, strong pointer, great bird finder with excellent range. And he is beautifully graceful when burning up the countryside! I could watch him run and not even take a shotgun, but my buddies don't share my passion.

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:24 pm

It sounds like you really like your setter so it seems like it would be a good idea to give him/her another shot. Force-fetching softer dogs can create some incredible results. One of my German Longhair Pointers was a little soft at first. I force-fetched her this last summer (between 18 months and 22 months) and the results are amazing. She is a much more confident dog overall now. It can take a little longer to force-fetch a soft dog, but I think it is actually really helpful to most dogs. If you are unsure of how to proceed, look for a professional trainer that has experience with softer dogs. Have him help you out.

Or if you have a hankering for a new pup, I second what some others have said about looking into a well-bred Deutsch Drahthaar or GWP. Of course I am partial to GLPs

There is also an excellent pudelpointer kennel in Nebraska that I would happy to give you contact information for.

Where are you from in Nebraska? We are heading there for a 10-day hunting trip at the end of this month. Are the pheasants numbers good this year? Last year, we saw mostly quail and only a few pheasants.

Keep enjoying your setter!

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:40 am

I'd go with a Draht of GWP. They do it all; point, retireve and good in cold water. In my opinion, the most versatile dog out there.

Firstarrow · Post by **Firstarrow** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:40 am

If you want to keep two dogs, get a lab from field lines, leaner etc.
There are some that hunt with setters, keeping them steady to shot and have the labs retrieve their downed birds.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:53 am

Force Fetch the setter. If I can do it with my cling-meister Vizsla, someone that is good with FF can do it with your setter.

Best regards, Greg J.

kiddcline · Post by **kiddcline** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:28 pm

I agree with the force fetch. You have a good dog, why not make him great?

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:40 pm

The GWP's I've seen are not the fastest hunters around. The one I hunt a lot with is slower than my lab. She's got a great nose (better than the lab), but is a methodical hunter.

My lab is thin, but muscular. She weighs in at around 60 lbs. I've been asked if she's from field trial lines, because of her run. She really is a quick dog and has a lot of stamina. I won't claim she hunts as quick as most setters, pointers, or most upland specialist because she can't, but for a lab she's quick. Her major downside is she gets tired much quicker in warm weather. Cold weather she will run all day long, but anything over about 60 and she slows down after about an hour and sooner the warmer it gets.

If you want a quick upland dog and don't care if it points what about a springer? I've read they can go at a good pace all day and can retrieve well.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:51 pm

Understand that not all dogs can be "Forced" to retrieve birds. If they have absolutely no retrieving desire, you'll never make a retriever of him. He'll simply blink the birds.

If he runs for tennis balls and likes retrieving things like that, then you can make a good retriever of him by forcing.

Force is a funny thing; sometimes you awaken a dog's desire to retrieve and they come around. Other times they'll shut down completely and you can ruin them. All depends on the dog.

Sounds like you bought and older, trained setter? Had he been force broken by the seller?

cancrkkennels · Post by **cancrkkennels** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:39 pm

the griffon is a good choice i have 4 and they all retrieve to hand with out training. German wire hairs are the same but faster like your setter.

tdhusker · Post by **tdhusker** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:44 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Understand that not all dogs can be "Forced" to retrieve birds. If they have absolutely no retrieving desire, you'll never make a retriever of him. He'll simply blink the birds.

If he runs for tennis balls and likes retrieving things like that, then you can make a good retriever of him by forcing.

Force is a funny thing; sometimes you awaken a dog's desire to retrieve and they come around. Other times they'll shut down completely and you can ruin them. All depends on the dog.

Sounds like you bought and older, trained setter? Had he been force broken by the seller?

Sorry for the dumb question but what does "blinking" a bird mean?

I bought my setter as a pup, he is 21 months now. He has never shown a desire to retrieve much. He would never retrieve balls or dummies. He did retrieve quite a few quail last winter when we were working with some pen raised birds for a couple days. My friends GSP pup was out-retrieving him and he started retrieving more as a form of keep-away.

He has had plenty of competition on the pheasants, i.e. he will run over to a downed bird every time and he will bite and hold a wounded bird but he has not retrieved one yet and he always lets the other dog take it. I have hunted him quite a bit and he has a good deal of experience on wild pheasant and sharptails. I'd like to hear more about your force-fetching opinion and others as I would like to go that way but certainly don't wish to ruin what I have now. He is a very good performer in the field and dearly loved by my kids.

As far as the Pudelpointer . . . I know nothing about them, are they a thin, long-legged type dog? Are they a birdy upland dog? Tenacious retriever?

I have been considering adding a GWP or Draat but the Draat breeder I talked to more or less suggested they are iffy around children. I also will not own a dog that is overly aggressive toward other dogs. GWP is looking more like a possible answer, I have hunted around one of them and she was a decent dog, maybe not the speed and exuberance I would like in the retrieving department. Once again, I have little experience with the breed. Is this a common demeanor?

tdhusker · Post by **tdhusker** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:50 pm

One more question, I live in Western NE, can anyone suggest a trainer for my setter somewhere in my hemisphere?

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:34 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Force is a funny thing; sometimes you awaken a dog's desire to retrieve and they come around. Other times they'll shut down completely and you can ruin them. All depends on the dog.

That is what happened with my lab. She would only retrieve until she got tired of it. She would determine when we were done playing fetch. Sometimes she'd go as long as I wanted and other times she'd quit after a few tosses.

After force fetching her she would rather retrieve than eat and I'm convinced she'd retrieve until she dropped.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:47 am

http://www.snowboundkennelsvt.com/

Try this fellow, Alec Sparks. Blinking is when a dog runs out to where the bird is and "pretends" not to find it. Based on the new description of your dog, I believe force would cure the problem.

mattj · Post by **mattj** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:19 am

For a trainer give Jim Gourley a call. He is in central Kansas.

www.setterdogs.com

Matt

High Voltage · Post by **High Voltage** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:07 pm

Not saying this is the deal with your dog but it might be. I have a friend that trains hunting dogs. We were training one day and she brought out a dog of a mutual friend that was in for training. When she brought the dog out all was good. As she whoa'd the dog and it took a step she reached down to put it back it began to yip and whine. I watched closely as she did it again. There was know way she was hurting this dog, yet if you just heard the dog without seeing what was going on you would swear it was in great pain. After a couple of minutes of this the dog straightend up and was fine. The owner of the dog had her in for training for this very reason. The dog wasn't soft just knew how to get out of doing what was asked. BTW I know the dog wasn't soft because when it needed to be corrected with the e-coller it took a high setting to even get the dog to flinch.

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:23 pm

tdhunter,

Here is the website address for that Pudelpointer kennel I was telling you about in Nebraska. They produce some really great dogs. I think they had a dog in the NAVHDA Invitational this year. My best hunting buddy owns a pudelpointer and they are great dogs.

http://www.featherfootkennel.com/Home_Page.html

It looks like they also train dogs if you are interested in force-fetching your setter.

tdhusker · Post by **tdhusker** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:41 pm

mattj wrote:For a trainer give Jim Gourley a call. He is in central Kansas.

www.setterdogs.com

Matt

Funny you bring that name up, Jim owns the sire of my dog (Shades something, I think). I'd better call him.

To clarify, I live in western Nebraska, (not New England).

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:29 pm

Sorry, I though you were in the East. Forcing the setter still won't solve your cold water problem. A Draht or PP will. Looks like you'll end up with two dogs, want them or not

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