JH Titles

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gar-dog
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JH Titles

Post by gar-dog » Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:56 am

What goes into a JH title? Is it meaningful?

A neighbor is looking at a litter of Brittanys from a predominantly show breeder in NJ. The litter's mom has a JH titles and there are many JH and one SH up the line. The dad doesn't have any field or hunting titles, but comes from extensive DC and DC/AFC lines.

My neighbor isnt much of a hunter, but has expressed an interest. So down the road this could be important.
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Post by Gordon Guy » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:11 am

My Opinion. Yes, it's a good thing, as compared to nothing. A JH title shows that the dogs have some level of hunting instincts and drive. Otherwise how would you know unless you 've seen them hunt. There are some who question the judges decision on whether the dogs have the "proper" level of instinct and drive but you will always have people that question the judges decisions. The proper level of drive is defined by the individual owning the dog.

What goes into a JH title: That would best be answered if you looked up the AKC website and read the rules/standards for a Junior Hunter Title or else you'll get everyones opinion.

I've seen some pretty inexperienced dogs in Hunt Tests (Don't know if they passed) and then I've seen some dogs that I would be proud to hunt over.
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Post by ohiogsp » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:27 am

Basically the dog has to point a bird for 3 seconds. They have to have some training like range and they have to find the bird in the field. Finding a bird in a JH is not usually that hard. And they don't have to be trained very well but it shows the dog will find a bird and point it. SH is a very large jump for a dog and the JH is basically there to get people into hunt testing. Majority of dogs that get a JH will never get a SH and the SH will accuallly show the dog could be hunted and complete the tasks required by a hunting companion like hunting, pointing, handling, retrieving, backing, and STW&S.
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Post by Greg Jennings » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:27 am

IMHO, the JH tells you just about nothing about the hunting ability of a dog.

A long line of CH plus JH, to me, says "show dog". The question after that is if those breeders were both sincere and competent about breeding for a hunting dog.

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Re: JH Titles

Post by Dave Quindt » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:32 am

gar-dog wrote:What goes into a JH title? Is it meaningful?

A neighbor is looking at a litter of Brittanys from a predominantly show breeder in NJ. The litter's mom has a JH titles and there are many JH and one SH up the line. The dad doesn't have any field or hunting titles, but comes from extensive DC and DC/AFC lines.

My neighbor isnt much of a hunter, but has expressed an interest. So down the road this could be important.
Cheers,
Gary
From a breeder/puppy buyer perspective, a JH title is all but meaningless. Does it show some level of hunting ability? Yes. Does it show ENOUGH hunting ability to deem the dog to be of breedable quality? Not even close.

There are plenty of quality Brit breeders around; unless your neighbor is looking to show a dog there isn't much need to buy from a show breeder who isn't willing to put meaningful hunting titles on their dogs.

JH is useful from the aspect that it gets people involved in the sport. It's great for newbies and their individual dogs; bad for the dog breeds when used to justify breeding a dog.

JMO,
Dave

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Post by tmoneysju » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:34 am

Gary, sent you a PM

I would have to agree with the above post, from what I've read and the people I've spoken with, JH is definitely not a bad thing, but almost meaningless when judging a dog's potential hunting ability.

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Post by Ayres » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:36 am

One thing to keep in mind, however, is whether or not the breeder is using the JH as a justification for breeding. Some people just don't hunt, and don't train for hunting. Others hunt, they just don't play the games to get the letters before or after the name.

If you or your neighbor have seen the dogs in the field and are receptive to their hunting ability, then you can disregard all of the bad commentary about the JH title. If the JH title is all you are going on in a decision to buy a pup for hunting, then you need to do further investigation.
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Post by gar-dog » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:08 pm

Thanks for all of the quick replies.

They have a choice of 2 litters in the area:
1) a NGDC dad and proven family hunter mom, or
2) litter from a mainly show kennel. The guy was an avid hunter his whole life but has some health issues and doesn't get out as much. Been breeding britts for 40 years. He is a well-respected breeder and has clean kennel. His website has many pictures of his dogs out hunting. I think the guy had a knee replacement or something and is well into his 60s.

I shied away from him, as I am an avid hunter, so I went with field lines (Bucks Hit the Road Jack sired). Neighbors had been wanting a dog and fell in love with mine (they are only human you know). They are non-hunters. But interest is there.

Selfishly having an eye to recruiting my buddy into the sport :) , I have been trying to make sure they get a dog that at least has a nose.... albeit this dog will be a pet first. The show kennels have only JH all over one line. The other has some DC and AFCs in there. I also want to make sure they don't get a screamer!

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Post by Karen » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:10 pm

<---From same show kennel mentioned above (he was 14 months old and in the middle of being broke when the pic was taken). :D
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Post by ezzy333 » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:22 pm

If you are wanting a hunting dogand pet I would be more than happy to find a dog with a JH title as well as some show titles. JH tells me the dog still has hunting instincts and that is what you need in a hunting dog. SH and MH are steps up but are more directed at how they are trained. You will probably have difficulty finding a Brit without hunting instinct bu at least with the title you know it is there.

Will those pups be field trial dogs, they might but it sure isn't what I would look for if that is what you are trying to buy. But I like the DC background and at least a JH on the others. I know this is not the popular position with people who breed trial dogs and I agree, but for a nice pet, hunting dog it is a good beginning. The rest can be taught if the instinct is there.

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Post by phermes1 » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:28 pm

Ayres wrote: If you or your neighbor have seen the dogs in the field and are receptive to their hunting ability, then you can disregard all of the bad commentary about the JH title. If the JH title is all you are going on in a decision to buy a pup for hunting, then you need to do further investigation.
That sums it up pretty good. A JH simply doesn't tell you much.
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Post by gar-dog » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:30 pm

Thanks Ezzy. I am the hunter, not them. I would love for their dog to run with mine and maybe come out hunting with me next year. That's why I see at least something in the JH.

If they go the other route, their dog would have same sire as mine, and the dam would be a half-sister of Ginger's dam. That's 75% the same pedigree. I will not spay for 2 years and they are getting a male, so I'd be a little worried if they accidentally hooked up.

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Post by kninebirddog » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:46 pm

When it comes to hunt test I would look to SH and MH

But then also don't shut the door on other venues either...basically there is the same gene pool but as in a hunters case a NSTRA dog is really being judged on a hunting and bird finding ability

They all go hand in hand they all have to have desire to get out there and look for birds

they all require training and biddibilty for the training

they all need to stamina to handle running strong for30- 60 minutes

even the run and gun events though those events are timed in the aspect how quick they get their 3 birds...they stil have to find birds


They all offer something for a hunter to be able to know that they are getting a dog from dams and sires which can get out there and find birds after that it is the differences in training which again comes do to a good breeding program
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Post by Don » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:23 pm

If I were you, I'd get the names of the first three generations of the pup's. If I didn't recognize any names, I'd put them on here and see what the Britt people here think. One important thing to remember about Britt's, There's more dual ch Britt's than any other breed. It's that way for a reason. When I was into trialing, a Britt trial came with a speciality show. Britt people were far more conscientious about field and conformation than other breeds. I see where some of the Britt people right here even engage in both, even if not trialing. Rather than see the titles, see the parents work in the field. If the breeder doesn't have time for such things, don't walk but run away.

As for titles, I would not buy any pup based on a title on the parents, not even MH.
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Post by TrueBlu Shorthairs » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:54 pm

Perfect pedigree, both parents and grandparents are NFCs and MHs, AND you have had the opportunity to hunt over both of them on birds you will hunt in areas you will hunt. FC AFC MH next best, if you have the chance to hunt over the parents. Worst case...show dogs with JH titles and little more. I'd rather have non titled parents from FC grandparents who have been hunted on wild birds than show dogs. JH means little if anything. Some show dogs run ten times to pass enough times to get the JH and then call their pups "dual quality" pups. Just not the case in most situations. Breeders will tell you they hunt. Most do not, pure and simple.

See the parents, have the breeder work them on birds AND run them for you in an area that shows their range, their style, their stamina, gait, desire, overall abilities. Personally, as a breeder I expect owners of my pups to hunt the heck out of the dogs and really prefer that they compete ALSO. No potential buyer should expect less.

Quite honestly, I wouldn't sell you friend a pup unless he was truly committed to hunting. So, this litter might be just fine for him.

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Post by gar-dog » Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:59 pm

As for the breed, they liked what I liked with the Britt. Size, non-shedding, good family dog, disposition, not much of a barker, athletic active dog, cute factor, potential for hunting.

I am taking my neighbor to shoot clays tomorrow. We'll see how he takes to the gun. His Dad was a hunter. But my buddy was raised in Brooklyn..... a different kind of hunting over there :)

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Post by Grange » Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:11 pm

Non-shedding :o ? Tell that to my truck, which is covered in white brittany fur. That little guy sheds almost as much as my lab, which is to say a lot.

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Post by gar-dog » Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:41 pm

Hmmm. my pup's parents both have relatively short hair for a Brit. I brush mine and am hard-pressed to even find hair in the brush. Even when I have a dark shirt or sweater, tough to find them even after rastlin'

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Post by Karen » Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:47 pm

Just wait....frequently they don't get their full coat in until they're 12-18 months old. Lucky for you, we have one of the most talented Brittany groomers around right in Blairstown. http://www.hopeskennels.com

It's well worth the trip to have Doug groom a Brittany for you.
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Post by kninebirddog » Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:52 pm

gardog give your pup a bit more time..Brittanys are anything but non shedding

Same with pointers they are any thing but none shedding

We travel and have pointers setters and Brittanys and you should see the shedding that they ALL do I think the pointers shed the most but because they ahve a shorter coat it takes twice as much

as Karen stated wait till they mature and the coatcomes in ...my young gal she is about 10 months her coat has finally come in and has started to shed some
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Post by Ruffshooter » Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:06 pm

This may have been said I just skimmed. A dog that has a JH title may have run as a full grown dog not a puppy.

Get your self a large garbage bag and save the sheddings, in no time you will have enough hair to knit a nice sweater.
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Post by gar-dog » Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:09 pm

Well, when I said non-shedding I guess I didn't mean that exactly. Every creature and human alike sheds to some extent. But I understand brittanys to be on the lighter side of that, especially if you brush them. I have seen labs, some fru fru dogs, and german shepherds that can coat a whole house.

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Post by kninebirddog » Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:17 pm

Well if your comparing with ultimates LOL


nothing like dogs with mass under coats
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Post by AHGSP » Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:18 pm

I think Ezzy pretty well covered my opinion on the JH.

If your in Jersey, here is the Brits to look at:
http://www.quailhollowkennel.com/

I don't run Brits, but I've had the pleasure of spending at least a day every week for the past 4 years during Grouse Season, behind one of Steve's Brits owned by a friend; have worked with 2 other pups from his breeding and have seen another 3 in Hunt Test and I can just not say enough good about them. From my rather "Brit un-educated" opinion.
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Post by gar-dog » Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:32 pm

A friend of mine has a 7 year old Quail Hollow Britt that is a crazy hunter. When I got mine I never looked into them for some reason.

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Post by AHGSP » Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:46 pm

"Crazy Hunters" would be accurate. "Tricky dog", as I call her, is he!! on Grouse and Doodles and won a Coverdog Trial last year that my buddy entered her in "just for the heck of it". Competeing is really not his cup of tea. She was not trained per se, but rather was given LOTS of exposure to Grouse and Doodles on a routine basis. She has probably seen less than 2 dozen pen birds in her life and there is not a dog I would hesitate to put her down with on Wild birds. Lately, her forte has been Wild Quail & Doodles on the shore and from what I understand, has taken right to the Quail without so much as a hiccup.

She is also 100% spoiled house dog.

Were I to have a Brit in my future, I wouldn't hesitate to call Steve and I don't know him on any personal level... just his dogs.
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Post by Kiki's Mom » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:18 pm

For what this is worth, both breeders you are looking at will provide your neighbor with a quality companion dog. BOTH breeders are knowledgable in what a good hunting Brittany is and to get a pup from either one, your friend won't go wrong. BOTH put out some very lovely Brittanys. Guess it will come down to which pup grabs his heart.

I'd personally take a pup from either litter, regardless of what the pedigree paper says on the "show bred" dogs with only the JH. If you need any more incentive, talk to Karen about her Blaze....

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Post by Reech » Fri Dec 28, 2007 7:33 am

I got my pup a JR hunt title. This is my first dog. She has been on birds since she was 10 weeks old. I did it more for MY handling experience in the field. This was a way for me to get feedback for how I was training the dog. Each and every judge that looked at her complimented me on her independence, obiedence and her pointing.

This year I am training for a SR title and will also try and get her Navhda NA test before her 16th month.

I am sure most of the verterans here do not worry about JR titles and rightfully so.

I knew I was getting a good dog, I just didnt know how good of a trainer she was going to make me. :lol:

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Post by markj » Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:15 pm

Best dog I owned was from Ch lines, sire and dam both Ch JH titled. Was hege-haus bred tho. Look at the dogs, see what they do. I took a live quail with me in a pocket, got downwind she went right on point, the gal didnt understand that and I got her, took her out hunting found she was gun shy, took me like 1 day to get her over it, she was the best hunter I ever owned, wish I would have bred her a got a pup like her. Genetics are very important in a dog or any animal.
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