britts in cover dog trials?

[up-hunter]

I know there are a few guys running britts in cover dog or grouse and woodcock trials in michigan. I was wondering if there are any breeders out there breeding britts for cover dog trials, like the english pointer and setter breeders are?

[Kiki's Mom]

Yes there are. Pat Carney being one of them. Locar Brittanys.

I recently ran 3 of my Britts in a cover trial for the very first time. 2 of them did VERY well....the third weeeelll...let us just say that he has been conditioned over the years to avoid the woods due to his delight in chasing deer. He did not enjoy his run nor did my husband enjoy running him in that trial

But I got the chance to run under Pat in the Derby stake where my little girl did a GREAT job and really impressed BOTH the judges, holding her own against a stake of 16 older Setters and Pointers. It was the first time for me to trek the woods and I too had a GREAT time! We were one of only 4 dogs with bird work and good ground race that day.....the placements going to 2 Pointers and a Setter, all of whom were two years old. Kiki was just 8 months old at the time.

The third dog was a young bitch who had a GREAT time. She was hunting hard and doing it with such an obvious pleasure one could not help but be riveted to her performance. She had never been exposed to Grouse before and went birdless but you can bet that we will do more cover trials with her in the future. This same bitch has a 4 month old son that is available and I wouldn't hesitate to place him in a home that would focus on cover trials. He has the breeding and is already showing the potential to make a wonderful hunting partner.

[Yawallac]

Why not just run your Griff. Your odds of being competitve in a Cover Dog trial are about the same as a Britt. Nothing against Britts (or Griffs) but why beat your head against the wall. If you really want to be able to compete, then get a breed that is capable of winning in the woods.

BTW, this is an excellent Cover Dog forum:

http://members3.boardhost.com/coverdog/

[midwestfisherman]

Why not just run your Griff. Your odds of being competitve in a Cover Dog trial are about the same as a Britt. Nothing against Britts (or Griffs) but why beat your head against the wall. If you really want to be able to compete, then get a breed that is capable of winning in the woods.

BTW, this is an excellent Cover Dog forum:

http://members3.boardhost.com/coverdog/

I respectfully disagree with your assumption that Britts can not compete in the cover dog venue.

[slistoe]

I believe that Brits place reasonably well in cover dog venues relative to the percentage of entries.

[ezzy333]

As I said on another thread it is a venue Brits do quite well in. Wonder if anyone has the break down of how many of each breed runs in them and a list of the winners. Seems to me from what I have heard the Setters have pretty much dominated but I have never seen the figures.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

On other boards folks have tried to do the math and the most they could determine was that each breed wins placements in a direct correlation to the number of entries. The entries are dominated by Setters, so the placements are dominated by Setters.

If one was to check the placements at CKC Shooting Dog stakes in Canada one would have to conclude that there is absolutely, unequivocally no better dog for such competitions than a Brittany. Just be sure you don't ask how many of them are entered compared to all other breeds.

[Yawallac]

As I said on another thread it is a venue Brits do quite well in.

What does that mean? How many Championships have Britts won in Cover Dog Championships?

I guess it just depends on what someone considers being competitive. The Cover Dog Championships are dominated by setters and pointers. If you're talking about being able to get a placement in a weekend trial then sure, but I am talking about being truly competitive and winning Championships. If someone has that as a goal, in any venue, they can help their chances by buying a breed that is consistantly winning Championships in that venue.

Shoot, last spring Cherrystone entered her weim in an NBHA weekend trial. She took 3rd. As far as I know she ran the only weim in all of NBHA. So weims do great in NBHA, right?! ...and percentage wise they are off the charts! Could Pam's very nice weim ever win an NBHA Championship? Never.

So keep crunching the numbers to bolster your premise, but the bottom line is that it just doesn't matter. The odds are clearly stacked against you going in. So I go back to my first post. If you really want to be truly competitive why beat your head against the wall? Pick a different venue or pick a different breed.

Look, if I had the goal of becoming a great NAVHDA trainer I certainly wouldn't start with Pointers. I have been successful with Pointers in NAVHDA but not without a lot of extra effort. I would find a well bred GSP pup. If I wanted to quickly make a name for myself in NSTRA I would probably buy one of Nolan's Britts and go for it.

I'm just trying to be honest here. Craig has a Griff. He has realized that a Griff is not the best choice to be competitive in the grouse woods. All I am saying is that if you want to drive a nail, use a hammer not a screw driver. And don't switch from a screw driver to a wrench when a hammer is a perfect fit.

[Ruffshooter]

Up hear it seems when you enter a dog other than a setter or pointer in a cover dog trial, the regulars seem a little uneasy. ( It seems primarily setters and pointers as the majority of entries ) It seems they don't like other breeds in their game. I watched a few of the pointers and setters run in a couple cover dog trials and saw some dogs that would be nice to hunt over, but saw that my dogs could do as well or better than what I saw. Those dogs were not anything special.

Those pointers and setters covered no more ground than my GSP nor with any more style.

I will be running my GSP and French Britts in the trials this year just to poke the bear and something else to do. I was told that I will not be able to win with my dogs. This is without them seeing them run. I may not win, but it won't be because of perfomance at least with the GSP. The Brit is not as big a runner but very good and thorough. He can play spoiler. It will be because of perception or because only pointers and setters are supposed to win.

I say run what you brung and have fun.

I have run in a couple braces with Pat Carney's dogs. They are very nice, I believe she has many dual champions as well. One of the days my French Britt came in third in a trial with Pat and her dog as a brace mate. This was not a cover dog trial but a brittany trial.

Those Nolan dogs have a lot of wins and champions in NSTRA. Those dogs got some wheels. I have run against a few in VA and Ontario. Those dogs have a reputation. They are well known. I don't know if they have any dual champions, Never looked.

[FTbritts]

Personally, I think the brittany can compete and win in any venue the owner seeks. If you have good genetics to start with it's up to the owner how the dog will turn out.

Jim

[slistoe]

Jim, I have been to a few prairie all-age championships and I really am not sure a Brit could be competitive there.

[FTbritts]

I'm not saying one could win at ames, but I think they could be very competitive in AF trials. No britt pro want to run in them because they are chasing Prurina points or just want to stay competitive in the AKC arena.

[ezzy333]

Be honest with yourself. Yawallac is right. If you want to win run the dogs that win. Brits were never bred to compete with pointers and hopefully never will be. I think it is only smart to have the breed that has been bred to perform in the manner that works best in your environment. That said, there is nothing wrong with running any breed in any trial to see how the dog performs. I haven't gotten to the place yet where winning is more important than owning the dogs you like best.

Cover dog trials are a venue where the Brit is as well adapted as the pointer and if the same number of dogs were entered you would probably see them about equal with the setters still winning the most. Coverdog trials is not where the pointer shines and if Mr. Calloway really believes you should run the dogs that win then he should switch to setters for these trials. Out on the prairie or in the southern quail plantations the pointer is the dog to beat. In the midwest pheasant fields I would take a Brit or many other breeds over the pointer.

What does all of this mean? Just that the dogs have been bred for different purposes and they all do a great job at what they were bred to do. No one breed is better than the others, they are just different. Just as it should be.

Ezzy

[Yawallac]

That said, there is nothing wrong with running any breed in any trial to see how the dog performs. I haven't gotten to the place yet where winning is more important than owning the dogs you like best.

I couldn't agree more.

Coverdog trials is not where the pointer shines and if Mr. Calloway really believes you should run the dogs that win then he should switch to setters for these trials.

There is no "o" in my name. But I do agree, if I was going to run in Cover Dog trials I would probably own a setter or two (maybe).

[AZ Brittany Guy]

There is always exceptions to the rule. There was a Brittany by the name of Pacolet Cheyenne Sam that won the International Endurance Open, a 3 hour heat that was the only Britt against Pointers and Setters. But as someone else said, most Britt Pro's stay out of that venue.

[slistoe]

Remember that the stake which Pacolet Cheyenne Sam won was a Shooting Dog Stake.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Remember that the stake which Pacolet Cheyenne Sam won was a Shooting Dog Stake.

Your right Slistoe but regardless, that was a game that Britts never played in. It was also said that Sam had HD.

[slistoe]

I do believe that, if there were owners who cared to pay a pro to do it, there are a good many Brits capable of playing the Shooting Dog game with the P&S's very well - even at the CH level. The Prairie All Age game is a different kettle of fish altogether.

There are lots of dogs who have HD and never show any clinical symptoms. There are also dogs who do not have HD yet have a higher than normal rate in their get. There are also dogs, the type that have what it takes to go 3 hours in all conditions in front of a horse, that will run through anything just to keep going. You could break their leg and they will keep pushing for the front. The people who know which category PCS fit in haven't been making it public knowledge that I have heard.

[PacificPointer]

It was the first time for me to trek the woods and I too had a GREAT time!

Sorry Helen, I couldn't resist

[Kiki's Mom]

Hey...good to see you aboard!! You know we moved to PA right? what the heck ELSE am I gonna do now that the Pacific Coast Xtreme fun you are so fond of is but a mere memory for me????

How goes the wars Pal?

[PacificPointer]

Hey...good to see you aboard!! You know we moved to PA right? what the heck ELSE am I gonna do now that the Pacific Coast Xtreme fun you are so fond of is but a mere memory for me????

How goes the wars Pal?

I kine-na wanna be your friend Be_My_Friend

Everything is good, heck I'm rich with life and poor with money. As you know just by living USA we are all very rich. Well I'll keep you posted on all the GNAR thats going on out here

I go to your website all the time, And I consider you one of my Peeps

[Kiki's Mom]

Well Ed, It is good to see you on this board...welcome. AND try to stay outta trouble will ya?

Have you been hit real hard with all that snow that blew into the West?

[Trekmoor]

I'm a newcomer to the forum from Scotland. I just don't understand this discussion. What do you mean by "cover?" It isn't usual here to work either pointers or setters in cover. That job is done by spaniels or H.P.R.'s . I ran my half American bred Brittany in her first ever trial in thick woodlands and we got chucked out. The judges commented if they couldn't see it they couldn't judge it! They also half admiringly exclaimed she was like Hailes Comet - only visible about once every 86 years as she whizzed past!

Just how thick is the cover you are talking about and is it bramble bushes or other nasty stuff and is the dog meant to penetrate that cover or just point from the outside ? Sorry for the list of questions but I can't understand how any dog can thoroughly hunt cover at any real range and still be marked in a trial ?
__________________________________________

--- "One toot and yer oot !!!"---

[Kiki's Mom]

Hi and welcome! I'm new to the "cover" trials myself but the main difference that I experienced was that 1) the trial is foot handled 100%. Even the judges are on foot. 2) the course was entirely in the woods with nor real open space for a dog to open up and run. The dog *must be hunting at all times with a nice quartering pattern and huntng kindly to the handler. The cover along the course is not so thick that it can't be easily walked or negotiated by the handler, but neither should a dog be out of sight for very long at all, lest he be lost. In the cover trials the dogs wear bells so the handlers and judges can get an idea of where they are in the woods if they can't be seen. ( To my ear that was a TRIP when I did it....each bell has a slightly different tone and after a while I was hearing all kinds of bells <GGG>)

Where as, a lot of the "regular" field trials are horseback handled and even the walking trails are conducted on a course that has lots of open space to show off a dog's ground race as it negotiates the fields and handles the likely objectives (cover) where the birds would be. These objectives vary depending on the region. Here in the Eastern central region of the USA the dogs need to take off like your Hailey's Comet and be seen hitting the correct wind side of the tree/brush lines. IN the Central midwest region, the dogs need to be looking at wooded/grown up fence lines, hedgerows and motts, and out in the Western region the dogs will be working the natural terrain and the ridge lines and rocks where the native chukar are likely to be. Unless the handler is actually flushing the bird for the dog he won't be walking or negotiating heavy vegetation very much.

I'm sure others, who are more experienced will chime in here and help me out.....

[Trekmoor]

Thankyou Helen, that's not too different from our H.P.R. trials then ? In this country the dog must always flush the bird on command or it will be downmarked in a trial. I'd read somewhere that in your country the handler or some other appointed person does the flushing in trials - is that not true?

Over here we often use the same H.P.R.'s for all kinds of work. Mines might be ranging wide on the grouse moors one day and hedging and ditching or working the woods the next. Your dogs seem a little more specialised. To take the Brit breed as an example, does the part of the States the dog comes from eventually have an influence on its appearance? Maybe bigger or longer legged in more wide open country? Are different "types" being bred within a breed to better deal with local conditions ?

Sorry, I'm asking loads of questions again !
___________________________________________________

--- "One toot and yer oot !!!" ---

[Karen]

The Brittany has really stayed quite true to the standard here in the states and boasts more dual champions (show and field) than all other breeds put together. There are, of course, dogs out there competing that are over the size standard, but the vast majority are standard size.

As to flushing, that's the handler's job. If a Brittany flushes (and the judges see it ), it's disqualified here in the states

[Trekmoor]

Thankyou Karen, Before I ask my next question I would like to make it clear I am not trying to criticize your ways of working, only to understand them a bit better. So here's my next question, why does the handler flush the bird? The dog knows where it is and how far in front, it can make a better job of the flush and do it more easily. I've never found having a dog hold its point a problem and steadiness has never been too much of a problem either. Do you have other reasons for not having the dog make the flush?____________________________________________

--- "One toot and yer oot !!!" ---

[Kiki's Mom]

To take the Brit breed as an example, does the part of the States the dog comes from eventually have an influence on its appearance? Maybe bigger or longer legged in more wide open country? Are different "types" being bred within a breed to better deal with local conditions ?

No, at least it shouldn't. what Karen was trying to say in her reply post is that as a breed fancy we are trying very hard to keep the dog as uniform to the written and working standard as possible, regardless of geographic origin within our country. We as a fancy take great pride in the fact that the Brittany has well over 520 Dual Champions of record to date and we continue to strive to keep this a main focus for the breed over all.

Different parts of the country have different terrain and cover and we expect that our dogs perform well in all of them (at least those that are fortunate enough to have hunted and competed outside of our home regions). We do not, as breeders set out to produce dogs that will only perform well on the great prairies of the Midwest or in the deep cover of the East or only have such long range and speed as to perform well only in the wide open desert regions of the West. We want a dog that can perform anywhere at any time. It is one dog, one standard of excellence that is reached for in a breeding program... at least that is the theory

Do you have other reasons for not having the dog make the flush?

No, that just happens to be the way we do it here in the USA. To a judge I think it demonstrates the dog's ability to take great pressure and still hold it's intensity and style on it's game. I do agree with you however that to have the dog flush is probably more productive for the hunter and more true to what actually happens in a real hunt.

[ezzy333]

My dogs are not asked to ever flush in real hunting. I want to walk in and flush so that I am in position to shoot without worring where the dog is.

Ezzy

[PacificPointer]

Well Ed, It is good to see you on this board...welcome. AND try to stay outta trouble will ya?

Have you been hit real hard with all that snow that blew into the West?

Hey now I joined in Jan and have hovered this place since it started

I'm actually tempted to get one of FTBritts pups ..... somebody's got to put them into Sicktar Gnar dont ya think ?

[Trekmoor]

Different ways of doing things suit different people. I am sorry but I have to disagree with Ezzy about who should do the flushing of a pointed bird. I think the dog should do this but I fully accept that most of you will not agree.
My reasons for thinking the dog should do it are as follows. The dog is the one that knows where the bird is. The dog can easily flush it without any stamping around or noise making from me. I can often position myself for the best angle for a shot while working in woodlands. I can have my feet right where I want them as the bird rises without tripping over brambles or branches etc. My dogs are trained to hold point until I am in that good firing position and they will flush on command only from many yards from me or from right at my feet, whichever seems best to produce the game for the best or sometimes the safest shot. I never have to worry about where my dog is, it is sitting if it can or standing if it cannot in exactly the same place it was when it flushed the bird. They are not allowed to run-in, so I can shoot perfectly safely. I never take really low shots right over a dogs head anyway, even though they would not be hit, in some places and at some angles the shotgun blast might damage their hearing.

I'm not saying I'm right and any of you are wrong but these things are worth considering.

Bill

--- "One toot and yer oot !!!"---

[ezzy333]

Trekmoor,

I agree it makes it easier to find the bird, flush it , and be in position to shoot. I'll give you each of those points. My reasoning for me flushing is its fun, it adds to the excitement, it makes hitting the bird more challenging, and is beautiful to see the dog stand there while I'm searching for the bird. As you can see we are coming at a single point in a completely different way. Yours provides the best chance to shoot the bird. Mine provides the most excitement and challenges. For me at least, shooting a bird is the least of my concerns. being in the field with adog and watching it work its magic is why I am there. Once I shoot and the dog retrieves, the fun is over as the rest of it is all work. If I shoot and miss all I did was miss out on the work part of hunting.

So yes, I love to hunt, I love to watch the dogs work, I love to see them point and I love to walk in and have that bird scare the daylights out of me when it flushes from between my legs. I do love to eat them but I don't love to clean them, so if I miss I lose out on all of the work and may go hungry that night but there is tomorrow.

Ezzy

[Trekmoor]

I can see how you are getting your fun Ezzy and good for you, long may you enjoy it! For me part of the fun lies in the continuation of the dog work after the point. I like to see the dog move in to produce, I like to see my training take effect as the dog makes no attempt to snatch the bird on the ground or as it rises and I like to see it stay motionless as taught when the bird is shot until told to retrieve. It adds another dimension that I like watching to a dogs work.

Killing birds is not why I go shooting either, it is the dog work that fascinates me. I often get the dog to flush and then either do not shoot or even shoot to miss if I'm training for steadiness to shot.

Nowadays I rarely ever shoot, I've got a couple of things wrong with me that hurt when I use a gun too much. I still work my dogs for other hunters though or guns as we call them here. They come from all over the world - even U.S.A. In my opinion the best and most interesting work is seen on the grouse moors. It is possible to walk behind a pointing dog or two for miles among the heather. When doing grouse counts in the spring and late summer up in the hills all on my own with just the dogs it felt like I owned the world. The estate owners may have been lords and ladies but they were paying me to do what I loved doing more than anything else anyway ! I often wondered who got the most joy out of the land they owned them or me ???

Thanks for the kind reply Ezzy.

Bill

--- "One toot and yer oot !!!"---

[slistoe]

Tradition. We are acclimated by tradition. Your side and ours.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Well Ed, It is good to see you on this board...welcome. AND try to stay outta trouble will ya?

Have you been hit real hard with all that snow that blew into the West?

Hey now I joined in Jan and have hovered this place since it started

I'm actually tempted to get one of FTBritts pups ..... somebody's got to put them into Sicktar Gnar dont ya think ?

Happy New Year Ed! Did you just say you may get a FTBritt (aka Jim) pup????? WOW I thought you are a died in the wool Pointer Guy. That would be cool!

Happy New Year to you too Helen. Hope things are well for you and Brian!

[PacificPointer]

Happy New Year Ed! Did you just say you may get a FTBritt (aka Jim) pup????? WOW I thought you are a died in the wool Pointer Guy. That would be cool!

And this would be ??? It takes awhile to sort out whos who on the net with different screen names.

I was actually talking to FTbritts last night and didn't even talk about pups, well he said a bunch were spoken for, I know if I got one Mr John Munson my homie would be very stoked be'in he's down the road.

Whitefield's ______ of Gnar ????

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Unless I am speaking to the wrong guy, you frequent to huntsmith forum, you used to live in or near Scottsdale and you set up "in home Hi Fi systems" and you have called me on several occasions.

Guy Shelander

[PacificPointer]

Ahhh.... Guy
And true to all the above.

[Kiki's Mom]

Happy New Year to you too Guy...and yes...Ed is the accused you speak of

Would FTBritt be Jim Guthrie? EDDIE...are you SERIOUS???? Died in the wool Pointer dude such as yourself want to take on an Xtreme Britt???

BE STILL MY BEATING HEART!!!

Whitefield's XTREME Scream

[ezzy333]

Seems this thread has gotten completely off track. People were discussing Cover Dog Trials and how the Brits did in them.

Ezzy

[PacificPointer]

Happy New Year to you too Guy...and yes...Ed is the accused you speak of

Would FTBritt be Jim Guthrie? EDDIE...are you SERIOUS???? Died in the wool Pointer dude such as yourself want to take on an Xtreme Britt???

BE STILL MY BEATING HEART!!!

Whitefield's XTREME Scream

Hey now...... We already have one of FTbritts out here , well down in California, Tequila's Jose Cuervo X Full Proof Bullett my cousin has that dog.

Lets see if I got this right.......
Whitefield Brit X Pacific_female = running with you guys

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Seems this thread has gotten completely off track. People were discussing Cover Dog Trials and how the Brits did in them.

Ezzy

Sorry EZZy, We were having a Huntsmith reunion. Did not mean to steal the thread

[PacificPointer]

Seems this thread has gotten completely off track. People were discussing Cover Dog Trials and how the Brits did in them.

Ezzy

The topic was actually asking how britts did in CD trials but it really turned into what was expected and how people like their dogs to be.

I personally read alot about what a judge would expect or want to see. IMO if I ran in one of these I'd have to conform to what people have called/adopted a standard. I dont trial BUT as those in the re-union know I have my ideas and they would be 95% trek and 5% S2W&S.

As for a Britt in these trials IMO your dog will only become where you take it. To really bring this topic to the front there needs to be video. Str8 up...... Theres no excuse for people not spend $400-600 and video their events and sharing their sport and letting people know exactly how they roll

Where_I'd take_a_FTbritt_pup now I dont think that those pups have CD blood in them but that myth is easy to de-bunk because two hours after a grouse run the dog would be running rim rock.

[ezzy333]

Theres no excuse for people not spend $400-600 and video their events and sharing their sport and letting people know exactly how they roll

How about someone that only has $200 dollars in their pocket. Is that a valid excuse.

Even though we already have priced our sport out of reach of many people, I sure wish we would make an effort to keep the expense from continuing to just skyrocket. $350 seminars are nice but way more expensive than the average person has to spend for a day of instruction, $400 videos of filming an event that we already have spent $100 to $500 to just take part in, and continuing to jack the prices of our pups because we are trying to recoup some of these excessive expenses is going to end up killing our sport by eliminating the common person from taking part.

Ezzy

[midwestfisherman]

A little information about cover dog trials.

What Is A Cover Trial?

A cover trial is an FDSB trial conducted on native Ruffed Grouse and/or North American Woodcock. Such trials are called “cover” trials because the nature of the grouse and woodcock cover is such that a lot of the trial takes place in cover as opposed to open fields. Quite simply, a cover trial is a grouse or woodcock field trial.

How Does A Cover Trial Work?

The best way to know what takes place at any field trial is to go to a few of them and, watch, listen, and talk to people. It is imperative for a person to keep an open mind. Field trials, cover trials included, are not for everyone. Some people are smitten at their first trial, or are, as we say are “bitten by the bug.” Others are quite tentative but grow to like them. Still others are neither moved nor impressed, and so do not involve themselves in the sport. Nevertheless, it is always best to see a few trials for yourself before deciding.

Short of actually attending a trial, a distant second in terms of value would be to ‘see’ a trial by way of a written account of what takes place at a typical trial. So we offer the following fictional account:

Arnie Bugwolter has a nice pointer that he wants to compete with. The dog is pointing grouse very well and he has him steady. In mid-March, he sees an ad in the American Field for an April cover trial in Michigan. The ad has the phone number of the field trial chairman. Arnie enters his dog Phyllis in the trial.

The American Field ad also told what day and time the entries would close and what time the drawing would be. At 7 P.M. on a Thursday, the entries close. Phyllis is one of 33 dogs entered. The drawing, also per the ad, takes place at 7:30 P.M.l All of the entries are drawn on slips of paper and mixed in a bowl. Then the slips are drawn out and the dogs ‘braced,’ which means put together in pairs. Phyllis is the 17th dog drawn and is the first dog in the 9th brace. The 18th dog drawn is Nickless a setter dog, who is the second dog in the 9th brace. Phyllis and Nickless are thus scheduled to run with one another in the trial. One by one all of the other dogs are drawn and paired, until there is only one dog left. Because ‘33’ is an odd number, the last dog will have to run alone, or as it is termed, a “bye.”

The trial is scheduled to begin at 8:00 on Saturday morning. About that time, the first two dogs drawn out of the bowl are led to the designated beginning of course #1. Shortly after, two people on horses ride up to the area. These are the judges. When everyone is ready, the judges say, “turn ‘em loose” and both dogs are released. The judges usually click on their stop watches. While there are longer ‘heats’ in trials, these dogs will have ½ hour in this trial to perform. Arnie puts a bell on Phyllis and leads her up to the start of the ninth course. Nickless is already there with his handler.

The judges give the go ahead and both dogs are turned loose. For 30 minutes, the judges follow Arnie and his fellow handler and evaluate the dogs. The dogs will be judged on a number of criteria: how they hunt, do they go to the right spots? are they showing drive and speed?, do they range enough?, handle? Exhibit style? And bird work will be essential. Did the dog find a bird… or did he just happen to run into one? How did it point? Was it stylish and intense? Were the birds located right? How was the dog’s style and manners?

At the 25 minute mark, Phyllis is hunting along a stream when her bell falls silent. The judge gets off the horse and follows Arnie in. “There she stands,” Arnie says to the judge. “I see her,” the judge responds. Arnie steps in front of Phyllis and a woodcock whistles away. He shoots and the dog remains where she stands.

“Bring her back to the course,” the judges instruct.

Arnie collars her and then casts her back toward the trail. There are only a few minutes remaining by this point and Phyllis finishes well.

Arnie knows that she has done well, not ‘perfect,’ but ‘well.’ It will depend upon how the other dogs did and the judges are seeing it. Arnie is nervous as the rest of the dogs compete.

Finally the bye dog is finished, the stake is over, and everybody goes to the clubhouse for the announcement of the winners. With everyone gathered around, the trial chairman thanks the judges and gives each judge a modest gift. The other folks who helped with the trial are publicly thanked and then the winners are announced. Arnie is nervous.

“Third place goes to Rex’s Beasie Child, with Frank Tonic,” he says. He waits as those gathered applaud. Frank Tonic moves out of the crowd to collect his ribbon and purse check. “Second place goes to Crankin Phyllis with Arnie Bugwolter.” Arnie smiles and moves forward, shaking hands along the way, to collect his red ribbon and check.

“And first place goes to Gezzer Mike, with Slim Duress.”

The dogs are gathered and posed for pictures. All of the registration information is given to the trial officials so that the wins can be properly recorded and reported.

How Are The Courses Set Up?

Because Grouse and Woodcock trials are conducted on wild game, it necessary that courses be set up in likely cover. A course is nothing more than a cut and blazed trail in the cover. Currently the Marienville grounds in Pennsylvania have 8 separate courses each an hour in length at a walking pace. Gladwin, Michigan has 7, and Kilkenny, New Hampshire has 7.

The courses are either named or numbered. A lot goes into setting up a trial course. Courses often need to allow for a mounted judge, so areas that are very muddy or steep are avoided. The courses need to have some ‘flow’ as we say, so that a dog hunting the cover properly shows well. A course that is very twisty, or that turns away from the cover will often result in a dog coming from behind. A lot of thought and effort goes into a cover trial course. Courses are laid out and maintained by hard work on the part of the club members. As the cover changes, the courses are modified and altered. When the course is no longer producing birds year after year, they are dropped and new courses set up to replace them.

What Are Puppy And Derby Stakes?

Puppy trials are stakes for youngsters usually around 6 months to 1.5 years old depending upon what time of the year a pup was whelped. In cover trials, a puppy stake is a single course affair of 20 minutes to ½ hour per heat. The entry process and drawing take place as described previous. All of the pups are run on the same course, and there is usually no bird work. Many people think that puppy stakes are the hardest to judge since the judges are dealing with a lot of maturity variations and no bird work to assist in the evaluation.

Derby stakes are for dogs up to about 2.5 years old, again, depending upon the birthdates of the dog. A pup whelped in January will be about 2 ½ years old when it ‘graduates’ from the ranks of the derby, whereas a dog whelped in December will be 11 months younger when it ‘graduates.’

There is some variation as to how these stakes are conducted. Some run on a single course, like the puppy stakes, and then the top dogs are called back to point a bird - either a wild bird - or a planted bird in a bird field. Other derby stakes run on multiple courses and try to make placements on dogs who have pointed wild birds. In the absence of suitable bird work, these dogs placed will either be called back to show on game, or will be placed just on their ground work. The manner in which the stake is to be run is usually advertised in the American Field.

Derby dogs are expected to be more mature than puppies in how they hunt and handle the terrain, and for the most part, they must point birds to place though there are some derbies still placed on race alone. Normally, in cover trials, a flash point is enough for a fall derby and a bit more expected in the spring. Generally, steady to wing and shot is used by a judge only to separate similar performances.

How Are Cover Trials Judged?

This is another area where words, sentences and paragraphs pale to the task. A small book could be written on this and there is not always complete agreement. It is way better to go and watch a few trials. While there are general guidelines and standards, individual judges see things and value things differently

Generally, cover trailers are looking for a hard charging dog that hunts hard, looks good moving and on point, find birds independent of their handlers, handle, hunt forward, point positively, show plenty of drive and stamina, and also display a high level of training.

Why Don’t They Shoot Birds In Cover Trials?

There are a number of reasons foremost are that many of the trials doing not take place during the hunting season. Even if it WERE hunting season, grouse trials are about the dogs and grouse hunting is about the birds. To shoot birds for a competition is to do the birds an injustice. There are also liability issues and fairness concerns being that shooting birds off a course leaves less opportunity for dogs on the course later in the trial.

[Trekmoor]

Thanks for all that cover trial information. Fascinating! Your trials are very different from ours! Not worse, not better, just different. Your trials are in some ways more similar to our tests but sound a lot more exciting and illuminating to watch.

Bill

--- "One toot and yer oot !!!" ---

[john]

thanks for the post midwestfisherman.
I have been trying research cover dog trials by searching past post; none of the previous post have been as informative or thorough
thanks again

[midwestfisherman]

No problem guys. Glad it was helpful. You can also find more information at the Foster Award Site. There is a good bit of history about the Cover Dogs trials as well as pictures and some video clips. You'll also find schedules posted for the various venues and information on the many clubs that host the Cover Dog trials.

[up-hunter]

Thanks midwest that is the most info i've gotten yet