In-Bred or Line Bred

[BarkRidge]

I bought a pup I that may campaign in all-age trials. She is 6 months old and showing great signs for an all-age trialer.

I was looking into her breeding and whoa. It is really close.

She is out of Lester's Snowatch x Lakeview Lizzy.

Lester's Snowatch is out of Millers Date Line x Lester's Leeza

Lakeview Lizzy is out of Sir Lancelot x Powder's Est Liz

This seems alright until Miller's Dateline and Powder's Est Liz are litter mates. And Sir Lancelot and Lester's Leeza are litter mates also. Making all of the great-grandparents exactly the same.

(Miller's White Powder x Twist & Shout for Miller's Dateline and Powder's Est Liz. Miraculous x Townson's Little Jodie for Sir Lancelot and Lester's Leeza.)

Is this considered In-Bred or line-bred or normal ???

[Yawallac]

Looks good to me! Any of those pups left?

I'd love to see a picture of your prospect!

[Kiki's Mom]

Let me guess...a Pointer?

[WildRose]

It would be pretty normal for anyone following the "Bob Whele" approach but to me I'd call it inbreeding. Whether or not it's "good" depends on how the pups in that litter turn out, and more importantly how their offspring do.

Anytime you do a tight line breeding or inbreeding you really escalate the likelihood of something bad happening because unwanted genes are just as likely to be expressed (if they exist) as those you want to see show up in the offspring. CR

[Yawallac]

It would be pretty normal for anyone following the "Bob Whele" approach but to me I'd call it inbreeding.

Actually, in this case it's Millers approach to breeding. This pup is line bred Miller. ...and it looks pretty darn good!

Anytime you do a tight line breeding or inbreeding you really escalate the likelihood of something bad happening because unwanted genes are just as likely to be expressed (if they exist) as those you want to see show up in the offspring. CR

You're absolutely correct ...and that's why it works. Breeders like Miller and Wehle had the stomach to do it right. They simply culled the problems thus eliminating the bad genes completely.

[ezzy333]

Thats the way I would like to see a dog bred. I call that tight linebreeding.

Ezzy

[Razor]

The 94 Brittany NFC was out of two litter mates. Mircodot seemed to work out.

[lvrgsp]

That is a very interesting breeding, I have been following Lancelot and his pups for some time now, I like what he is throwing. And how can you go wrong with D. Hoyle

Chip

[BarkRidge]

Looks good to me! Any of those pups left?

I'd love to see a picture of your prospect!

Here is the inbred:

[birdogg42]

Not enough white , too much color. Just kidding nice dog!!!!

[SteveB]

Nice looking pup! I just finished Snakefoot: The Making of a Champion and Wehle contended that inbreeding magnified good traits and bad traits as well. If you have the stomach, as Yaw says, to cull any dog that shows any sign of a bad trait then all you're left with is good traits.
Again, nice pup.
Steve

[Wagonmaster]

Ross, I know that was Miller's theory on paper. By "on paper" I mean if you look at the peds of his great dogs. The formula, as I recall, was something like half-brother to half-sister, and the get of that back to the grandsire. That formula was repeated, if I recall correctly, to make Miller's Chief, Miller's Silver Bullett, and finally Miller's On Line.

The problem is that On Line is the dog that was disqualfied after winning the National Championship at Ames, and it was Miller's paperwork that was wrong. The declared bitch was not the actual bitch or something like that. So that begs the question why? Was Miller red shirting dogs, or was he trying to throw off his competitors, make them think he was breeding one way (so they would do it), when in fact he was breeding another.

What is sure is that he produced some hellaciously good dogs and we will never know how he really did it.

I can tell you that if you go back through the National Champions in the GSP breed, you will find that the majority of the winners have been outcrosses. The dogs that some point to as having been line bred, are actually the outcross of an established line to another different line, or to a dog that is itself the product of outcrosses. That seems to be the successful formula more often than not.

[BarkRidge]

Ross, I know that was Miller's theory on paper. By "on paper" I mean if you look at the peds of his great dogs. The formula, as I recall, was something like half-brother to half-sister, and the get of that back to the grandsire. That formula was repeated, if I recall correctly, to make Miller's Chief, Miller's Silver Bullett, and finally Miller's On Line.

The problem is that On Line is the dog that was disqualfied after winning the National Championship at Ames, and it was Miller's paperwork that was wrong. The declared bitch was not the actual bitch or something like that. So that begs the question why? Was Miller red shirting dogs, or was he trying to throw off his competitors, make them think he was breeding one way (so they would do it), when in fact he was breeding another.

What is sure is that he produced some hellaciously good dogs and we will never know how he really did it.

Actually Miller's On-Line was out of Don Wiggins kennel. Ferrel Miller purchased On-Line at about 8 or 9 months old. On-Line was out of White Powder and Wiggins Miss Sammie.

I have no idea what went on with his paperwork. Whether he tried to say On-Line was out of different parents or not. But, you are right, his dogs were "helacious"

[Wagonmaster]

I am going from memory, and being an old guy it could be wrong, but right about the time of the On Line disqualification issue, I am pretty sure I read a pedigree that had Bullett as the sire. Then later, after the whole deal about the Nationals, saw a different pedigree.

It is too bad. I still think he was one of the best breeders around, those were some dogs.

[lvrgsp]

It was the bitch that was wrong they corrected it afterwords Sammie was not the original bitch on the paperwork, that one incident alone was not all that blew up around the Miller kennels. Nonetheless Ferell bred, trained some of the best pointers, and they were producers as well.
Online was and still is owned by Chip McEwen and Mike Furney at the time of his Championship. Rick runs him

Chip

[Wagonmaster]

I am not trying to be critical of Mr. Miller. I don't know him, or what he did, or why. And I more than respect the great dogs he produced. Pretty much unparalleled in the breed. All I am saying is that one cannot accept, from the paperwork, that Miller was following an inbreeding/linebreeding formula. The truth is, we don't know how he did it and only Miller and maybe a close associate or two, ever will.

[lvrgsp]

I agree with you John. You know the whole On line thing just erks the heck out of me, they strip the dogs title not because of his performance, but because his mother was not right on the paper, and someone correct me if I am wrong here, but it was a littermate sister who was put down instead of Sammie, they went after Ferell to make a point in my opinion.
And don't think this does not happen in other breeds as well, believe me I know.

Chip

[lvrgsp]

Here is an interesting read from Tom Word, not to hijack the thread, or your nicely linebred pointer, just something to read about. I hope you enjoy.

Chip



Reflections on the Season

2005–06


By Tom Word





It’s hard to believe another field-trial season has come and gone. Only yesterday we were waiting impatiently for news of the first prairie winners. Now the curtain is almost down, the big winners known, the dramas played out.



The season will always be remembered by what happened at the National—Shell Creek Coin’s standout eight-find performance to win and Steve Hurdle’s near-death incident as the pictures were taken. Thank God, Steve is going to be OK, but it was a near and terrible thing. Remembered too, by Ricky Chisem’s tragic death in an auto accident—so much promise and enthusiasm snuffed out so needlessly. And finally, remembered by Gary Pinalto’s death at 65 after a valiant fight against cancer.



The season started for me at the Lee County fall trial. What a treat to go back in time fifty years! To sit around in the kitchen with Big George, Pete Hicks, Billy C. Moss, Judges Bobby Roberts and John Hicks, Luke Weaver, Bubba, his daughters Courtney and Daphny and wife Sarah, plus all the Boys of the Road as they stopped in for a biscuit and gravy in the morning and a beer at the end of the day . . . that’s really field trialing. (Back in the spring, I’d gone bream fishing with Big George and Luke at Hurtsboro and heard the stories of Big George’s great dogs, Pineland Kate and Judy Warhoop.)

Luke let me ride Cocheese and Pete, his wonderful baby-sitter horses, which knew they had a poor rider and looked out for me like parents with a first baby. I left Leesburg wishing I could move there, at least for the field-trial season.



Next came the Invitational. Thanks to John Ivester, Gary Lester, Ferrel Miller, and Greg St John, I had bombproof, super-smooth rides there too. The weather was good, the races strong, the birds frightfully scarce. Winner Miller’s Southern Pride and Runner-up Lester’s Absolute were powerful and forward on the ground. Something must be done about birds at Paducah if this premier stake is to survive there.



Next came the Florida, with 90 entered and the biggest purse in field-trial history ($35,000). A new two-series format worked well. We left Chinquapin reminded there are a lot of really strong dogs and dedicated handlers competing these days. What a treat to see them on beautiful grounds, with plentiful wild quail. What a treat to see a father-son team, John and Win Lee, watch their first-year home-bred son of John’s great champion Spy Kill Pride prove worthy of his genes. Pride’s Alibi promises to be a standout with a long career ahead of him as Fred Rayl gets a fresh start with a new arrangement.



On Monday afternoon at the National watching Solid Reward and White Powder Pete proved exciting, as Reward swept the course and scored five times in his first hour-and-a-half. But the dreaded UPs descended, and at 2:25, Fred Robinson lifted him. His ground race had been spectacular. Next year the National will run on Saturday once more, shortening the trial, a welcome respite no doubt (Ben Franklin’s old saw about fish and guests after three days applies to field trials).



I did not make it to the Southeastern or Masters, but followed them closely via cell phone. Luke Weaver called me breathless after Sam’s (Rowan’s Gunsmoke’s) early performance at Chickasaw, excited as a boy on Christmas morning. The performance held, with Sam named Champion and Lester’s Thunderbird named Runner Up in a huge field of 98. The next week at the Masters, Thunderbird was named Champion, quite a thrill for Lefty Henry and Ellen and Tommy Liesfield (I remember watching Tommy’s pointer bitch Sensation long ago set the record for most field-trial wins at 116 at Camp Pickett for handler Roy Manns).



There was an Elephant in the Room in field trials this season—the absence of Ferrel Miller as a competitor, and of his Champions Miller’s White Powder and Miller’s Date Line as competitors and sires. Whether banning Ferrel was appropriate will be debated forever. Banning his dogs from breeding is even more controversial, and this season demonstrated beyond doubt that banning them deprives the sport of the most prepotent sires since Miller’s Silver Bullett, who happens to be the most prepotent sire ever. Enough said, except read The Imposter, a parable about unintended consequences.



The Impostor



Willie Gooch was high as a Georgia pine—not on booze or drugs, but on mental images of a derby he’d been working since March. It was August now, with the first prairie trial just a week away. Willie was on his cell phone from North Dakota to Robert French, the derby’s owner and Willie’s boss, about the paperwork he needed to enter the derby in that trial and the ones to follow. Willie knew he had a winner, maybe Derby of the Year, but he couldn’t enter it unregistered.



French told Willie he’d be back to him in a few minutes, to stay off the phone while he dug up the paper in his plantation office, a five-minute walk from the Big House where he now sat before a bay window sipping single-malt Scotch and watching the sun set over the Mossy Swamp mill pond, the cypress leaves and Spanish moss above its dark waters glowing golden gossamer in the horizontal rays of dimming sunlight.
True to his word, French called Willie back ten minutes later.



“Got a pen? Write this down. Name, Mossy Swamp Sam, Registration Number 9978365, by Mossy Swamp Mobster out of Mossy Swamp Missie. Whelped January 10, 2006,” French said.
A long silence followed. Willie knew his derby Sam was not from a mating of those two dogs. He’d broken them both. They were wagon dogs on Mossy Swamp Plantation. Their sires were trial dogs, yes, but his special derby didn’t show the characteristics of any of those dogs, not at all. Finally, Willie said, “You send in a DNA sample with the papers for that registration?” “Yes,” French replied. The tone of the “Yes” told Willie all he needed to know.



His derby Sam was an impostor and would never sire a litter. He’d been honestly sold to French with notice he couldn’t be registered. If his derby proved a winner, and Willie had no doubt it would, another dog at Mossy Swamp Plantation would have to breed any bitch whose owner wanted a pup from Sam. The substitute suitor would be whatever pup from the mating of Mobster and Missie whose saliva sample Robert French had sent to the Field with Sam’s registration application bearing Sam’s markings.



Nothing more was said between Willie and Robert French that evening, except “Good night and good luck.” Both men understood the charade that would have to follow if the derby to be entered as Mossy Swamp Sam proved a winner. A policy of “Don’t ask—Don’t tell” would prevail between Willie and Robert French through all the days of Sam’s life. If a request came to Willie for a breeding to Sam, he’d just refer it to Robert French. That would no doubt prove awkward, unless Robert French placed the dog whose DNA had gone to the Field in Willie’s string as a passenger only, to occupy a dog box on the trailer and a chain on the string. Then Willie could surreptitiously breed it in the trailer to bitches delivered to him for breeding to Sam. That would directly involve Willie in the fraud, and Willie hoped Robert French would not do that. On reflection, he expected Robert French would choose instead to declare Sam sterile or unavailable. Robert French certainly didn’t need the stud fees, though Willie could sure use them. But since Willie was a private trainer on salary for French, it wouldn’t be as bad as if Willie were training and handling “for the public” and depending on stud fees as part of his revenue stream.

* * *

Willie fell asleep in his chair watching satellite TV. It was midnight when he woke up. His scout John Bain was also asleep beside him in the other soft chair facing the TV. Willie shook John awake, and he stumbled off to bed. Then Willie walked out in the moonlight to the plastic barrel in the shelter break where Sam slept. The derby heard his footsteps and came out of his barrel with tail wagging and licked Willie’s hand when he reached to scratch behind Sam’s ears.

As he walked back to the cabin from the shelter break, Willie hummed My Old Kentucky Home.

The End

No matter one’s position on the banning of Ferrel Miller, one cannot deny he was the most successful breeder, developer, and handler since Jim Avent. And like Jim Avent and for the same reasons, he is tops on the lists of most revered and most despised. But in another category, he also ranks tops—as a teacher. Look at the season’s record for proof of that in Gary Lester and the dogs he has bred and developed. Those who thought their prospects in field trials were brightened by Ferrel’s departure have overlooked his protégés.



Appendix

[withheld]

WOW! Great story, makes you think.

[Yawallac]

Ross, I know that was Miller's theory on paper. By "on paper" I mean if you look at the peds of his great dogs. The formula, as I recall, was something like half-brother to half-sister, and the get of that back to the grandsire. That formula was repeated, if I recall correctly, to make Miller's Chief, Miller's Silver Bullett, and finally Miller's On Line.

The problem is that On Line is the dog that was disqualfied after winning the National Championship at Ames, and it was Miller's paperwork that was wrong. The declared bitch was not the actual bitch or something like that. So that begs the question why? Was Miller red shirting dogs, or was he trying to throw off his competitors, make them think he was breeding one way (so they would do it), when in fact he was breeding another.

John,

I believe the actual dam was a littermate to the original. Was it a mistake or was it forgery. Who knows?

I seriously doubt that he was trying to throw off his competitors. The reality is that few would be able to cull as I have heard he did. I have heard stories from "interns" that he would ride out with 25 young prospects and return with 3 or 4. I have been told that he always carried a side arm and used it often.

I can tell you that if you go back through the National Champions in the GSP breed, you will find that the majority of the winners have been outcrosses. The dogs that some point to as having been line bred, are actually the outcross of an established line to another different line, or to a dog that is itself the product of outcrosses. That seems to be the successful formula more often than not.

Wehle was certainly known for his line breeding but his best dogs came from outcrosses. I believe in line breeding to create consistency and then outcrossing to another linebred line for vigor. That method has been proven scientifically to work in everything from corn to rats.

As far as "redshirting" goes it is commonplace in the Pointer world. It happens every January.

[Wagonmaster]

Those stories about culling are old as the hills in the pointer field. Some 35 years ago, due to Canadian border restrictions, many of the all age pointer trainers made their summer camp around Towner ND, and I was friends with the fella at the center of it all. We went around and visited some of the camps, and heard it said that it was not uncommon to take 100 dogs to the prairies in the summer and come back with a string of 20 ready to compete. But stories are stories, and I never saw any evidence it was the practice at the time.

The practice of culling, though, is an old one. I spoke once to a fella who was at the center of the development of the pudelpointer. He said that he would take a litter of pups down to the water when they were young, and any that would not go in were put down. He had put down whole litters that way. He said he later came to regret it, because he realized the difference was whether it was a windy day or not, the sound of waves crashing would discourage the young pups on windy days.

[kninebirddog]

The banning of Miller....Is his doing. He didn't/doesn't want to pay the fines and offices hours that His Pedigree mis-match caused What ever on purpose or not

That was a complete headache for the people in the office having to send out DNA samples and go back through the data base to make sure EVERY dog that had changed that the owners of dogs that were affected could get thier dog corrected.
Dealing with very pissed off owners
New registrations and pedigrees to be sent out

The other people who had litter registration sent in which were held up because of the Miller headache...Sorry some of us do send our puppy papers when pups are first born and do not procrastinate and that was where I called in to find out where my litter registration was they gave me my number over the phone so I could send papers with my pups.
But lets just say you could tell the office people were very frustrated over the work load that it caused.

[Yawallac]

Those stories about culling are old as the hills in the pointer field. Some 35 years ago, due to Canadian border restrictions, many of the all age pointer trainers made their summer camp around Towner ND, and I was friends with the fella at the center of it all. We went around and visited some of the camps, and heard it said that it was not uncommon to take 100 dogs to the prairies in the summer and come back with a string of 20 ready to compete. But stories are stories, and I never saw any evidence it was the practice at the time.

Oh I know. I only mentioned it because the two gentlemen that shared similar stories with me actually worked for Ferrel at different times when they were younger. They both said the same thing.

The practice of culling, though, is an old one. I spoke once to a fella who was at the center of the development of the pudelpointer. He said that he would take a litter of pups down to the water when they were young, and any that would not go in were put down. He had put down whole litters that way. He said he later came to regret it, because he realized the difference was whether it was a windy day or not, the sound of waves crashing would discourage the young pups on windy days.

I know who you are referring to. I saw the same kind of culling take place in my NAVHDA Chapter in the early 80s. Mostly for coats on the wired breeds. I thought it was pretty brutal at the time. I'm very sure that many fine hunting dogs were lost. I just don't have the stomach for it.

[Wagonmaster]

Me either. We are lucky to be the beneficiaries of two breeds that have been so well developed by now, that it is very rare that a pup is born that cannot go to a hunter and do very well, even if it is not of competition quality.

[WildRose]

The banning of Miller....Is his doing. He didn't/doesn't want to pay the fines and offices hours that His Pedigree mis-match caused What ever on purpose or not

That was a complete headache for the people in the office having to send out DNA samples and go back through the data base to make sure EVERY dog that had changed that the owners of dogs that were affected could get thier dog corrected.
Dealing with very pissed off owners
New registrations and pedigrees to be sent out

The other people who had litter registration sent in which were held up because of the Miller headache...Sorry some of us do send our puppy papers when pups are first born and do not procrastinate and that was where I called in to find out where my litter registration was they gave me my number over the phone so I could send papers with my pups.
But lets just say you could tell the office people were very frustrated over the work load that it caused.

You are quite correct. Miller is a genious as a trainer and bred some phenomenal dogs but his downfall was his own doing. Had the facts been as some described here he'd have had no culpability. The fraud went much deeper than just Online and without a doubt he had signed many a fraudulent set of papers and puppy registrations, that is why he was fined so severely and had such heavy surchages levied.

Worse yet because of his actions hundreds of dogs lost their registrations. The FDSB was in such serious trouble both financially and from a credibility stand point due to his actions it nearly caused the demise of the registry.

In the end the FDSB ended up having to change their own rules to allow the registration of a great many dogs who's lineage will never truly be known and ended up again having to change it's own rules to allow dogs that had been stripped of their placements and titles, to have them added back, once their registrations had been corrected.

Field trialing is supposed to be about producing the best possible breeding stock for the future, not just about making as much money as possible. When your actions make it impossible to actually know the lineage of the dogs being produced the registry no longer has credibility and the point of trialing is lost.

Even without papers a great dog is still a great dog, he's just useless for breeding. CR

[BarkRidge]

The banning of Miller....Is his doing. He didn't/doesn't want to pay the fines and offices hours that His Pedigree mis-match caused What ever on purpose or not

If the truth be known Ferrel actually did pay the fines. But he was still not allowed to register with the field. There was apparently great pressure upon the registry to act in the manner they did.

You are quite correct. Miller is a genious as a trainer and bred some phenomenal dogs but his downfall was his own doing. Had the facts been as some described here he'd have had no culpability. The fraud went much deeper than just Online and without a doubt he had signed many a fraudulent set of papers and puppy registrations, that is why he was fined so severely and had such heavy surchages levied.

Field trialing is supposed to be about producing the best possible breeding stock for the future, not just about making as much money as possible. When your actions make it impossible to actually know the lineage of the dogs being produced the registry no longer has credibility and the point of trialing is lost.

Even without papers a great dog is still a great dog, he's just useless for breeding. CR

But none can deny the impact Miller made in the all-age pointer world. Those huge running dogs with their heads erect and high snapping tails motoring ahead are credited, and rightly, to Ferrel's breeding.

But his breeding model lives on on. I recently visited one of the aforementioned "protégés" kennel, and can report, his dogs are still out there and model still followed. They just are not preceded by Miller anymore. But everyone. in the field trial circuit knows where these dogs are.

"

[birdogg42]

BarkRidge Wrote
[quote]But his breeding model lives on on. I recently visited one of the aforementioned "protégés" kennel, and can report, his dogs are still out there and model still followed. They just are not preceded by Miller anymore. But everyone. in the field trial circuit knows where these dogs are.

Do you happen to know where those kennels are?

[highcotton]

I think much of Miller's credit should be given to Mr. "bleep" Brown who bred Riggins White Knight. After all he was the major corner stone of Millers program.

[PntrRookie]

BarkRidge Wrote

But his breeding model lives on on. I recently visited one of the aforementioned "protégés" kennel, and can report, his dogs are still out there and model still followed. They just are not preceded by Miller anymore. But everyone. in the field trial circuit knows where these dogs are.

Do you happen to know where those kennels are?

Not exactly sure which protégés BarkRidge is referring to, but I think Don Wiggins at http://www.wigginsriver.com/ breeds heavy Miller.

As well as an up and coming young breeder/handler - Nathan Phillips from Southern Indiana - http://www.phillipswhiteline.com/ Nathan has bred many VERY nice "Miller" dogs...White Powder Pete (Owner Bert Wimmer), Phillips White Twist (Owner Butch Houston and Handled by Robin Gates), Phillips Southern Bell (Owner Bob Leet and Handled by David Grubb), Quicksilver Sashay (Owner Rick Stallings), Phillips Time Line (O/H Nathan Phillips) - to name a few.

Nathan got started...on the "boot strings" of his dad Gary and Ferrel Miller. Click on the link (or just below it) on the about us page to read more.

[lvrgsp]

You can add Mr. Lester to that category as well. Nathan has bred and trained some nice dogs, linebred Miller.

Chip

[WildRose]

Duane Maness who posts on here occasionally has both Elhew and Miller bred dogs that are pretty nice. You might want to contact him.

As for Mr. Miller paying off his fines and his suspension/ban. Your account differs from that which was published in the field Bark and there are still people unable to get their dogs properly registered because of all the problems with Miller's paperwork. CR

[Wagonmaster]

As I recall, National Champion Shell Creek Coin was previously named Lester's Gold Coin.

[BarkRidge]

Yes, NC Shell Creek Coin was out of Lester's breeding. Gary sold it because he thought it did not have enough run. Steve Hurdle got Coin and changed his training and became an all-age national champion.

Don Wiggins used to breed to the Miller dogs every time he had a dog come into heat, until River Knot won some championships, now he is keeping his breeding in house with him. He has some nice dogs for trialing. But he sure goes thru many litters to get there.

[oakcreek]

Everyone says that he refused to pay, is everyone sure that those are the facts.

There is a lot more to the story if you can get someone in the know to talk about it.

[ymepointer]

I had an aquaintance once who bred to one of Millers dogs at that time and it came back wrong sire, I believe the descrepancy was Millers issue as they shippped the bitch to him.

[tn red]

http://amesplantation.zenfolio.com/p222 ... #h2cb2c563

one of my favorite pics

[cjuve]

http://amesplantation.zenfolio.com/p222 ... #h2cb2c563

one of my favorite pics

I saw that in my 2011 fall edition of field trial magazine, I though that it was quite entertaining !!!

[grouseguy]

Thats the way I would like to see a dog bred. I call that tight linebreeding.

Ezzy

right. My father in-law has a setter that has the same grandfather on both sides. Great dog.