Color of GSP's?

[GSPVIZ]

Why are some GSP's more black in color than liver?

[Brittguy]

Maybe you were looking the black GSP?

[GSPVIZ]

I guess I never knew there were black gsp's. Mine has a very dark liver on his head and his spots and ticks are very very dark. I just thought that they were always liver but maybe they are black.

[ACooper]

Black gsps are becomming more common. This is a female that we own. Nice dog.

[jakegsp]

I have two of them now that are mainly black. I really like the color however it is harder to find the black ones with the run in them that I like. Luckily the two I have now have pretty good run in them.


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[beachgsp]

once you go black you never go back! Love the black dogs!

[Greg Jennings]

Why are some GSP's more black in color than liver?

Some are black, some are liver. Black vs liver is like brunette vs blonde. It's genetic. The black largely stems from the Arkwright pointers being bred into GSPs. Google it, it's an interesting story.

Some are just very dark liver. I have one. The dark liver vs lighter liver is like different shades of brown hair. Some are very, very dark and others are verging on a shade of blonde.

Both are just genetics in action.

I have noticed that liver will sun bleach just like people's hair tends to sun bleach.

FWIW, Greg J.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Take a look at the dog's nose, if it is brown, then it is genetically impossible for the dog to have any black on it. Some dogs with small ticking or very small patches against the white background appear black. But, they are liver, just very dark liver.

[GSPVIZ]

Yes my dog definitely has a brown nose. It does seem that his head turns lighter brown in the sun. I guess he just has very dark liver spots.

Is the nose the way that the AKC can tell if the dog can be shown? (i heard the black GSP's cannot be in conformation shows).

Here are some pics that show him as being very dark liver....

[adogslife]

I didn't know it was difficult to find a black GSP with drive.

Is this true?

[Grange]

I used to run into an owner of an all black GSP when I'd walk my lab and his GSP was at a constant run all over the woods. From what I saw that dog certainly had plenty of drive. He told me it got a prize 1 in it's NA test.

[ACooper]

with drive? no, with range? depends on who you talk to.

[phermes1]

I love the black GSPs, I think the color is striking.

But no, a black GSP can't be shown in the AKC show ring.

[highcotton]

The best shorthair (by my taste) I have ever seen was a black/white dog. He had as much drive as the horseback pointers I grew up on and was a bird finding machine.

[scout_on_38s]

BLACK IS BEAUTIFUL!!!! I saw them for the first time about 2 years ago and loved them. My wife and I looked for almost 8 mo. before we found what we wanted and could afford last fall. She is now 5mo. still growing like a weed and working great.

[AHGSP]

once you go black you never go back! Love the black dogs!

HAHAHA! How was your Christmas trip? Email me when you get the time.

As for Black, here is an insightful article on the Black GSP by the GSPCA's Breed Education, Patte Titus.
http://almostheavengsps.netkennel.com/C ... d%20Origin

Might shed a lil light on the topic.

[Huntemup Chuck]

I have an all black shorthair that doesn't stop hunting and doesn't stop running until I call him in and put him in his kennel. I ran him in the NA and he received a 107 Prize II. He received 4's in everything except his search. He received a 3 in search, he didn't want to turn when I did and he was out hunting 200+ yards in front of me and the judges. I will post a picture, I love black shorthairs, if you are looking to get a black shorthair I know that Indian brook kennels has some great ones. VC, Enzo vom Ludwigstein, MH, Intl Ch is a black GSP with drive.

[WildRose]

Take a look at the dog's nose, if it is brown, then it is genetically impossible for the dog to have any black on it. Some dogs with small ticking or very small patches against the white background appear black. But, they are liver, just very dark liver.

That's not quite true. You can have liver so dark it appears black (I've had a couple) but in truth it's just an extremely dark liver, which can be seen under magnification and bright light.

To have a "true black" however it is true. CR

[ACooper]

I dont have a color preference, I like one the same as the other, a good dog doesnt know what color it is. I also would/will not pick a pup based on color if I found a litter and the pup I liked best was b/w great, but in my opinion it seems that many people are getting caught with the color and breeding for color not performance. That is my problem with the black dogs. I see way to many ringers in pedigrees that are only bred because on color and for no other reason, so I guess my problem is not with the dogs of color at all but all the "breeders" that want to capitalize on the new "rare" black gsp. It really pisses me off, if color is considered in choosing a stud or bitch to breed to something is wrong.

Sorry for the rant.

[AHGSP]

I dont have a color preference, I like one the same as the other, a good dog doesnt know what color it is. I also would/will not pick a pup based on color if I found a litter and the pup I liked best was b/w great, but in my opinion it seems that many people are getting caught with the color and breeding for color not performance. That is my problem with the black dogs. I see way to many ringers in pedigrees that are only bred because on color and for no other reason, so I guess my problem is not with the dogs of color at all but all the "breeders" that want to capitalize on the new "rare" black gsp. It really pisses me off, if color is considered in choosing a stud or bitch to breed to something is wrong.

Sorry for the rant.

BRAVO! Don't apologize. I and I think many, are right there with you. I may have never gotten involved with Shorthairs that were Black, had it not been for the fact that the only choices I had to pick from in a Breeding that I really wanted a pup from, were all Black Ticked. Percy turned out to be a great Grouse dog and has produced true. Pedigree was never an issue with me then, so much as ability and man could his parents hunt! Now, some 5 years later and after much effort to narrow down the best qualities in his pups, I'm finally ready to carry on and Breed one of his daughters that is a bomb. I kept the entire 1st litter to evaluate! I kinda wish she was Liver, but alas, she is Solid Black. So be it, she has a nose to die for and all the abilities, conformation and personality I was looking for. I'll be keeping several pups to further narrow down and begin Line breeding and setting a hard type. Should her pup that I plan to continue on with be Black, so be it.... I'm looking for package regardless of color.

I'll also add to your rant, by complaining about the folks that will charge more for those "rare" Black dogs, than they do for Livers from the same litter! It is no wonder they get a bad rap with some of the idgets that are breeding them as Rare, Exclusive, etc.... Chaps my arse!

I actually had a fella contact me to talk about the Black dogs and proceed to tell me that he bred a Black to a Liver to darken the Eyes and the Liver pigment in the coat. This ain't mixing paint! ARGGGGGHHHHHHH!
Here is an idget that is capitalizing on the hard work of many to legitimize the color within the Breed and he can't even take the time and effort to understand basic genetics! Talk about P.O.'ing me!

[jakegsp]

[quote]with drive? no, with range? depends on who you talk to.


Sorry about that, didn't mean bird drive I meant range.

[markj]

I didn't know it was difficult to find a black GSP with drive.

Is this true?

Drive, Range? I gave a pup to a guy it is black and white, has plenty of range and drive. 5 months old it was fetching phesants it pointed. He wants to rein the dog in a bit the roosters are very wild now and he thinks a dog at 30 yards will keep the birds from running out I showed him how it is done with my two males my brother limited first ime in his life that day. I held back with two.

Got a litter now has a couple blacks in it, nice breeding top and bottom.

Most independant pups is a black/white female so far. Going to throw a few quail at them see what they do.

[ACooper]

What I meant when I said "range- depends on who you talk to" was there seem to be a lot of people around that think if the dog is black and white it is slow and close, not the case any more than with liver dogs.

[jakegsp]

What I meant when I said "range- depends on who you talk to" was there seem to be a lot of people around that think if the dog is black and white it is slow and close, not the case any more than with liver dogs.

Exactly! My idea of range is probably different than the next guys and visa versa.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Charlie, what I said is exactly true. I said, that you cannot have BLACK on a dog with a brown nose. Of course, a color can be so dark, IT APPEARS BLACK. Doesn't make the color black. As I said, it is genetically impossible to have black color on a dog with a brown nose.

[WildRose]

Blake if the only way to distinguish between a liver so dark it is black and a truely black hair is under the microscope which can be the case, for all intent and purpose the "color" is black. I had to spend a good bit of time with a Geneticist that understood GSP color genetics very well to figure out just how that anomally came about. It's VERY uncommon but does happen.

In most people's minds perception=reality. If the reality is the color appears to be black it's black, in this case it's just not a true genetic black.

That is why it's only partially true that you can't have a black GSP with a brown nose.

I learned this when we had one that was as black as any lab, but the DNA came back true and there were no black dogs in the pedigree for at least ten generations. The gene for that super deep liver is pretty strong in Tipper's line and is still showing in some of Moose's offspring. They aren't coming out black but an extremely, extremely dark liver.

CR

[tasi devil]

...........tasi

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Charlie, I'm sure you have a degree in Biology or some extremely advanced education in the subject, but, I have little desire to argue that dark liver is really black, just ain't so. Further, a dog with a brown nose CANNOT have black on it, period. Whether it looks like it or not, still ain't the case. Perception may be reality, but when science proved otherwise, I'll go with science.

Yep, it is true and not partially true. I divorced one I had to argue with, won't do it here.

[WildRose]

Sorry to use such a bad pun but "it ain't all that black and white" Blake, or in this case "black and liver". I didn't post on the thread to make you look stupid or look bad or just to enrage you or start an argument. I was just trying to help people understand why their brown nosed black dog really isn't black, but appears to be.

There are people that indeed will end up with a black (appearance) dog that has a brown nose. While the absolutes of genetics say "it can't be a 'true black' ", the fact however is that it can for all intents and purposes be black when you look at it.

It takes a pretty deep undertstanding of physics and the wavelengths of light to understand how black can really not be black. To most when we observe a color it simply is that color.

Here is a good example. While it may not be entirely accurate I pulled this color of of the "black spot" on Tippers leg from an old photo. For all intents and purposes it appears "black". However enter this same color into photoshop or some imaging program and you will get a specific mathmatecal breakdown that shows you it's "not quite black", on the color chart it will show to be not quite in the black range but a very, very dark liver.

http://www.wildrosegermanshorthairs.com ... 0black.jpg
Sorry it stepped on your ego. CR

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

You are right, I am wrong Charlie. You can at least beat me on this one competition. Look forward to seeing you at The Quail.

[WildRose]

Grow up Blake you've beaten me with one puppy at one trial at your home club, and you didn't even win the stake! Aren't you so proud! I thought it was supposed to be about the dogs, not feeding our egos? Since we'll be hunting that weekend I'll let you go win so you have something to crow about.

I was trying to help people understand, not get into an argument with you. That's why I went out of my way to make my first two replies polite. Maybe you should try it some time. CR

[ward myers]

my females ,are a very dark liver, i was told thats from her great grandfather he throws realy dark livers, PRIMO'S EVOLUTION.
everyone always asks me what am i feeding them ?
one of the guys at the NAVDA club has a solid black gsp
i have always avoided owning a solid black , because of the show ring
thing & the heat down here.
but i may breakdown & get one because i really like the colour !

[markj]

Ward, get a black and white GSP. I have one sold almost all white 2 black spots and a black head.

My female looks very dark, black under certain lite. In direct sun she is dark liver tho. Now one of my males is black all right from his mommys side.

[ward myers]

well im not getting anything anytime soon , i have 6 gsp's at the moment
3 huntable 3 in training

[mikeyair]

why would any one want a black gsp

[ezzy333]

mikeyair.

I think the answwer to your question would be to hunt with.

Ezzy

[AHGSP]

Uhhhh, not to sidetrack, but after mikeyair posted, all the post shifted to one side or something??

[Greg Jennings]

It's from incorrect HTML in the signature. Probably in the bit from perfect pedigrees... I can edit posts, but I can't edit the profile.

[grant]

It's from incorrect HTML in the signature. Probably in the bit from perfect pedigrees... I can edit posts, but I can't edit the profile.

Fixed... =)

[AHGSP]

Is it possible to get mikey some coaching to correct his signature?
Man, it makes reading the post kinda screwy!

EDIT! It's fixed! Much better now! THANX!
You Da Man Grant!

[markj]

i have 6 gsp's at the moment

wow you sound like me I have so many the wife up and left life is so much better now too


Why would any one want a black GSP? I didnt look close enough before i bought him wouldnt trade him now tho, he is such a fine dog. Hunts great and I sure can see him in the snow.

Grandma told me to never judge a book by its cover.

[mikeyair]

sorry about screwing everything up i went in and deleted teh html from the signature ill fix it later when i have time. oh btw i was just poking a little fun since i have a black&white gsp

[AHGSP]

No worries! It was kinda weird trying to read though.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Man Charlie, I had to go back and figure out what puppy stake you were talking about. Oh yeah, the dog I got fourth with at Lone Star? She took fourth and I immediately sold her. Funny, I beat you with the dogs I sell.

In this forum, most have seen you have chosen to argue a fact, black is not liver. You've decided in your infinite wisdom, that black and liver are the same color due to perception. I can't argue with that fine logic.

[Holden05]

I'd buy a dog from Wildrose any day of the week.

Pretty big man who claims to have "beaten" someone with a dog. Wow, I guess you must have really big control over your dog. It must really have understood the competition. Nothing like living vicariously through one's dogs... What a joke. Your dog won, not you...

[markj]

that black and liver are the same color due to perception

I think he meant they can appear to be the same but upon close examination you can tell brown is brown. Least that is how I took it.

I often wonder, can the dogs tell the difference?

[ezzy333]

OK boys, lets play nice in public. If you need your egos massaged go do it in private. Thats why there is a PM feature.

Ezzy

[WildRose]

You're more than a little late on this one Ezzy.

Blake it's really simple or should be for even someone of your mental magnitude.

If a color appears to be black, it is perceived as black. Most people are not going to RUN DNA on a dog to determine if it's "really genetically black or not" when they see a dog, they just see a black dog and say "It's a black dog".

If the only way to tell for sure that the hair is an extremely dark liver rather than actually black is by DNA or bright light Microscopy to most people it's simply a black dog.

If you really want to impress the crowd Let's compare how we each did at our last field trials.

Let's see. I entered 7 dogs. 3 gun dogs, 1 derby, and 3 puppies if I remember right.

The dogs won 2 of the three stakes entered. The only dogs that didn't place were two of the gun dogs. One of them broke when his brace mate ran into him instead of backing and then took the birds out. I accidentally released the other directly into a covey of chukar after a find. Birds flushed and he was done.

How did yours go? CR