A friend of mine has a 3 month old lab that he is about to hang an E-collar on. as soon as it is charged. He has never used one himself. Somebody tell me I can quit trying to convince him he is wrong and the dog will grow up fine.
Jim
what the heck e collar on a puppy
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Brushbustin Sporting Dogs
- Rank: 5X Champion
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If he is going to shock him it is a horrible idea. But I don't see anything wrong with him playing with the puppy while its wearing the e-collar. Helps puppy get used to wearing it and helping it link th ecollar to something good and fun is a great idea, but shocking a puppy is a horrible idea.
Robert Myers
Rajin Kennel
308-870-3448
Brittanys are Best enough said...
BBD's Ca-Ching
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1061
Brushbustin's Ebbie SH
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=678
BNJ's Dirty Dozen Dixie
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=869
Rajin Kennel
308-870-3448
Brittanys are Best enough said...
BBD's Ca-Ching
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1061
Brushbustin's Ebbie SH
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=678
BNJ's Dirty Dozen Dixie
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=869
3 months is way to early, no way that pup will know what is going on. let got to let it be a pup first, why is everyone in such a hurry. this guy is going to ruin his dog. someone should take it away and hang the e-collar on him then shock him every time he doesn't solve the most difficult logarithmic equation.
Re: what the heck e collar on a puppy
this leads me to believe they plan on shocking the puprstbkt69 wrote:A friend of mine has a 3 month old lab that he is about to hang an E-collar on. as soon as it is charged. He has never used one himself. Somebody tell me I can quit trying to convince him he is wrong and the dog will grow up fine.
Jim
natetnc,
You may be right and the pup is to young inmy opinion. But experienced people at least are NOT shocking dogs except in avoidance training. Otherwise it is only stimulation that is or at least should be used. There is quite a difference.
Ezzy
You may be right and the pup is to young inmy opinion. But experienced people at least are NOT shocking dogs except in avoidance training. Otherwise it is only stimulation that is or at least should be used. There is quite a difference.
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
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kninebirddog
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Well..I am going to say for someone who has no experience in an E collar ..then there is no place for that collar to be on a 3 month old pup.
and it sounds like this person needs to learn how to deal with an animal as the e collar will not be the answer.
IT is the mentality which is very wrong here as it wouldn't matter if it is a 3 month old pup or a 5 year old dog. there as to be a training and a method to get the dog to under stand What the stimulation means which this starts with the leash lead and check cord
and it sounds like this person needs to learn how to deal with an animal as the e collar will not be the answer.
IT is the mentality which is very wrong here as it wouldn't matter if it is a 3 month old pup or a 5 year old dog. there as to be a training and a method to get the dog to under stand What the stimulation means which this starts with the leash lead and check cord
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
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rstbkt69
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I sent this link to the dog owner we are talking about in hopes that it would help to change his mind on useing it on his puppy. His thought is that Gunner knows what no means now and he is going to reinforce the command no. We are friends with a guy that has a 2.5 year old lab and he swears by it. And I know that e-collars have their place in training and dog control when used correctly. The 2 Lab owners were in a park playing with their dogs and the puppy would not stop eating goose poop. We are in the flyway and they geese winter here. They put the older dogs collar on him and nicked him the next 2 times he tried to eat the poop. It stopped him from eating any more on this outing and the collar has become the stimulas of choice in this puppies training now. I hope he is reading this thread and will join the forum to help everyone understand his reasoning behind this. As I'm typing this my 3 month old GSP just emptied a brand new box of Kleenex all over the living room and I did not feel the need to Nick her. This is what he wants to stop. Unwanted behavior like this with NO and a Nick.
Jim
Jim
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kninebirddog
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- Location: Coolidge AZ
Well if you want to teach all no bad it will be effective BUT if he ever plans on the being a bird dog this will be the very thing which will cause the dog to blink birds as if everything is a No and stimulate to avoid that is what he will be doing
Here is a rough draft of an understand =ing the e collar deal i ahve written hope it jhelps
but That is the wrost way to use a tool which can be an extension of training..
Understanding the E collar
The E collar can be the best aid in keeping a dog honest in their dog work. Outside of aversion training the E collar which is the most Miss-understood tool is not about pain this is the one hang up that many people can not seem to get over about the e collar. It when understood and used properly has the same exact value as a leash check cord or even your hands and correction should never be about pain. If I sound a bit redundant Yes I am trying to stress a point.
When the E collar was first designed it was basically an aversion tool or also known as a trash collar for hound dogs. This is where they got the dark cloud of mid-evil term of SHOCK collar because yes most hounds do require quite a bit to divert them off a track of unwanted quarry and yes it was a fairly good jolt. But, with modern technology though and working with many trainers the e collar companies have greatly reduced the levels of stimulation to wear it has less sensation then of you tugging on the collar via a leash. Trainers of yesteryear who have had book written will even say that if they could edit those books they would. Delmar for instance has even edited his training video with a new version of the whoa post. My point to that is even your best trainer leaves the door open to learning and evolving their training programs for the easier understanding for the dog.
This is a basic view for someone just starting out
The E collar should NOT be about pain and I can not stress that enough. When properly used it is like having an invisible check cord to help maintain compliance or to assist a dog into learning what the command means. Ie The here command with a check cord for the method I use…I will walk around letting the dog move about freely..I will then call the dogs name and then give the command then I will tap the check cord so the dog feels a couple of tug from the collar and then will reel the dog to me if the dog doesn’t start to head my direction then I will walk around some more then repeat now if the dog starts to head my direction there is no need to tap on the check cord and head the dog myway if the dog doesn’t then I will repeat the taptug on the neck then lead them my way
Walk around then repeat. When the dog is coompling and you have a good rep stop and let the dog sit on the chain gang and absorb the picture of events that just tanspired in commands that are taught through basic yard work. Then when you overlay the e collar in to your routine and the dog is doing what they are supposed to the e collar really should be the least used tool you’ll have. It is there so you can maintain compliance and a routine of command and follow through and only using the collar when needed. So if your dog is following the desired behavior or commands then one should not be stimulating the dog.
The collar should always use it at the lowest levels of stimulation that the dog will respond to not react to. The difference here being responding is the dog muscles twitching but no yelping or stress. Reacting to the e collar is yelping. When using the e collar even if you may have to increase the stimulation level to get compliance, remember to turn the intensity dial back down to the base level which the dog responds to in normal situations. The E collar can always help you to never miss an opportunity to train and to help a dog from learning undesired habits. You may go months with out ever having to stimulate as you and the dog become a hunting team but as long as you have the collar on when that situation occurs where a dog decides to have a breech of manners you will be in a position to prevent that breech of manners from becoming an issue or undesired habit out in the field especially if you correct at the time when the known command or desired behavior is not being done by the dog.
Many people the have a dog that gets away with something in the field think they can go home and fix the problem. Had that breech be corrected at the time of the infraction it wouldn’t become an issue or near as big of one. What happens in the field is you have the prey drive to work with and with many dogs specially younger ones what they want to do and desire becomes the first thing in their minds and all the fancy yard work once they figure out your not correcting when they do their own thing or they learn you really don’t have control that training goes out the window
Now as to what level is a base level for a dog this will vary depending on the collar and the dog. So dogs are more sensitive and some just have a higher tolerance, some dogs also are more determined to do their own thing where others are eager and willing to please. Then the other factor specially for hunting dogs is many times the base level in the field will be a little higher then just in regular yard work.
Fitting an E collar on the dog is also VERY important the collar must be placed High up on the Neck and very snug so that the contacts points are making solid contact at all times a loose fitting collar where the contact points are not properly connecting to the dogs skin will cause a couple things one is no stimulation value causing one to turn the dial up thinking the dog is not responding then all of a sudden contact is made which has a shocking value and is sharp and high which will be negative reaction or it will cause a sharp contact which is more like a stab then a stimulation. When putting the collar on take the strap and be sure to hold the loop part of the buckle pressed up next to the dogs neck pulling the strap trough so that it is as snug as you can get it getting to the hole that keeps the collar snug. Do Not wrench it over with excessive pressure. You should Not be able to get your fingers under the strap with out forcing them there.
There is only one instance where an e collar is about high levels and that is for avoidance training ONLY such as chasing unwanted quarry garbage or like snake avoidance.
Getting a dog prepared for e collar. I used a strong base of Rick Smith methods and start yard work with the command lead http://www.huntsmith.com/articles/TheCommandLead.htm . What I like to do is using the cues of a tap tap for a movement command either move with me , move in front of me, Move to me then I will use a constant till stopped for a stand still command. I start with the command lead then work out with a check cord. No matter what we are doing this is already pre-cueing the dog with stimulation on the neck.
When I start to use the e collar what I can most easily compare stimulation levels with is when your working a command a light little tug tug on the command lead or check cord or leash is a level 1 if the dog doesn’t comply then you tug a bit harder or tap a bit harder bringing the stimulation level up to a 2 if the dog still isn’t complying then you tap or tug a bit harder thus going up to the next level of stimulation. Once the dog is complying when you go to start giving the command again start again with the lower level of stimulation. This way the dog will learn command if no compliance they feel stimulation and they will learn to stop or beat the stimulation they must comply to the command.
Here is a rough draft of an understand =ing the e collar deal i ahve written hope it jhelps
but That is the wrost way to use a tool which can be an extension of training..
Understanding the E collar
The E collar can be the best aid in keeping a dog honest in their dog work. Outside of aversion training the E collar which is the most Miss-understood tool is not about pain this is the one hang up that many people can not seem to get over about the e collar. It when understood and used properly has the same exact value as a leash check cord or even your hands and correction should never be about pain. If I sound a bit redundant Yes I am trying to stress a point.
When the E collar was first designed it was basically an aversion tool or also known as a trash collar for hound dogs. This is where they got the dark cloud of mid-evil term of SHOCK collar because yes most hounds do require quite a bit to divert them off a track of unwanted quarry and yes it was a fairly good jolt. But, with modern technology though and working with many trainers the e collar companies have greatly reduced the levels of stimulation to wear it has less sensation then of you tugging on the collar via a leash. Trainers of yesteryear who have had book written will even say that if they could edit those books they would. Delmar for instance has even edited his training video with a new version of the whoa post. My point to that is even your best trainer leaves the door open to learning and evolving their training programs for the easier understanding for the dog.
This is a basic view for someone just starting out
The E collar should NOT be about pain and I can not stress that enough. When properly used it is like having an invisible check cord to help maintain compliance or to assist a dog into learning what the command means. Ie The here command with a check cord for the method I use…I will walk around letting the dog move about freely..I will then call the dogs name and then give the command then I will tap the check cord so the dog feels a couple of tug from the collar and then will reel the dog to me if the dog doesn’t start to head my direction then I will walk around some more then repeat now if the dog starts to head my direction there is no need to tap on the check cord and head the dog myway if the dog doesn’t then I will repeat the taptug on the neck then lead them my way
Walk around then repeat. When the dog is coompling and you have a good rep stop and let the dog sit on the chain gang and absorb the picture of events that just tanspired in commands that are taught through basic yard work. Then when you overlay the e collar in to your routine and the dog is doing what they are supposed to the e collar really should be the least used tool you’ll have. It is there so you can maintain compliance and a routine of command and follow through and only using the collar when needed. So if your dog is following the desired behavior or commands then one should not be stimulating the dog.
The collar should always use it at the lowest levels of stimulation that the dog will respond to not react to. The difference here being responding is the dog muscles twitching but no yelping or stress. Reacting to the e collar is yelping. When using the e collar even if you may have to increase the stimulation level to get compliance, remember to turn the intensity dial back down to the base level which the dog responds to in normal situations. The E collar can always help you to never miss an opportunity to train and to help a dog from learning undesired habits. You may go months with out ever having to stimulate as you and the dog become a hunting team but as long as you have the collar on when that situation occurs where a dog decides to have a breech of manners you will be in a position to prevent that breech of manners from becoming an issue or undesired habit out in the field especially if you correct at the time when the known command or desired behavior is not being done by the dog.
Many people the have a dog that gets away with something in the field think they can go home and fix the problem. Had that breech be corrected at the time of the infraction it wouldn’t become an issue or near as big of one. What happens in the field is you have the prey drive to work with and with many dogs specially younger ones what they want to do and desire becomes the first thing in their minds and all the fancy yard work once they figure out your not correcting when they do their own thing or they learn you really don’t have control that training goes out the window
Now as to what level is a base level for a dog this will vary depending on the collar and the dog. So dogs are more sensitive and some just have a higher tolerance, some dogs also are more determined to do their own thing where others are eager and willing to please. Then the other factor specially for hunting dogs is many times the base level in the field will be a little higher then just in regular yard work.
Fitting an E collar on the dog is also VERY important the collar must be placed High up on the Neck and very snug so that the contacts points are making solid contact at all times a loose fitting collar where the contact points are not properly connecting to the dogs skin will cause a couple things one is no stimulation value causing one to turn the dial up thinking the dog is not responding then all of a sudden contact is made which has a shocking value and is sharp and high which will be negative reaction or it will cause a sharp contact which is more like a stab then a stimulation. When putting the collar on take the strap and be sure to hold the loop part of the buckle pressed up next to the dogs neck pulling the strap trough so that it is as snug as you can get it getting to the hole that keeps the collar snug. Do Not wrench it over with excessive pressure. You should Not be able to get your fingers under the strap with out forcing them there.
There is only one instance where an e collar is about high levels and that is for avoidance training ONLY such as chasing unwanted quarry garbage or like snake avoidance.
Getting a dog prepared for e collar. I used a strong base of Rick Smith methods and start yard work with the command lead http://www.huntsmith.com/articles/TheCommandLead.htm . What I like to do is using the cues of a tap tap for a movement command either move with me , move in front of me, Move to me then I will use a constant till stopped for a stand still command. I start with the command lead then work out with a check cord. No matter what we are doing this is already pre-cueing the dog with stimulation on the neck.
When I start to use the e collar what I can most easily compare stimulation levels with is when your working a command a light little tug tug on the command lead or check cord or leash is a level 1 if the dog doesn’t comply then you tug a bit harder or tap a bit harder bringing the stimulation level up to a 2 if the dog still isn’t complying then you tap or tug a bit harder thus going up to the next level of stimulation. Once the dog is complying when you go to start giving the command again start again with the lower level of stimulation. This way the dog will learn command if no compliance they feel stimulation and they will learn to stop or beat the stimulation they must comply to the command.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
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Fireside
- Rank: Master Hunter
- Posts: 254
- Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:02 am
- Location: Colorful Colorado
Strap ecollar on the owner and zap him every time the puppy does something wrong.....snips wrote:Sometimes people just need it strapped on them.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=887 Rainbow's The Pirate Queen
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1833 Hope's I Kid U Not
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=4547 Kiddo x Freckles litter
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1833 Hope's I Kid U Not
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=4547 Kiddo x Freckles litter
I tesed mine on my arm. Ouchie, set on 1 or 2 now for the dogs, my boys need only a whistle, they stop and come back to see what I am up to.Sometimes people just need it strapped on them
Yard collars as well. me and my brother tested them out first on our arms. Same effect as the electric fence I use on cattle.
yes I tested that too. Hate to have a new steer run about. So offer to use it on him forst sdo he knows what is going to happen to that pup. 3 months may be to young, dont know the level that dog is at. Buy him the Delmar Smith book, train without the collar first. Some dogs never need any help in the field, some do.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1103
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=5210
"If there are no dogs in Heaven,
then when I die I want to go
where they went."
Will Rogers, 1897-1935
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=5210
"If there are no dogs in Heaven,
then when I die I want to go
where they went."
Will Rogers, 1897-1935
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kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
My TT G2 PRO 100 one 1 low I have yet to see a dog respond to
a1med ..I have had acouple dogs look around like a fly landed on them and on 1 high you can see on some dogs the muscle tighten
the TT G2 Classic 70 starts at the muscle tighten
Also a small puppy at 3 months a collar is not going to fit properly on not even the smaller Tri tronics collar of today either
so that in it self will not allow a proper contact which can make what is a light stimulation and will in a effect go from nothing to making a light contact and then be a sharp zap...
Which I see that the most e collar not properly put on to loose and to low
a1med ..I have had acouple dogs look around like a fly landed on them and on 1 high you can see on some dogs the muscle tighten
the TT G2 Classic 70 starts at the muscle tighten
Also a small puppy at 3 months a collar is not going to fit properly on not even the smaller Tri tronics collar of today either
so that in it self will not allow a proper contact which can make what is a light stimulation and will in a effect go from nothing to making a light contact and then be a sharp zap...
Which I see that the most e collar not properly put on to loose and to low
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
-
kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
It is the method which one teaches a dog what stimulation means
So the trainer down the road I would bet is keeping everything fun and in context with the young dogs...and that is the hugh difference
it is about stimulation which resembles a tug for the check cord or lead teaching a dog cues. SOme people have the timing and know how to read a dog and can get a dog to quickly understand and comply willingly
So the trainer down the road I would bet is keeping everything fun and in context with the young dogs...and that is the hugh difference
it is about stimulation which resembles a tug for the check cord or lead teaching a dog cues. SOme people have the timing and know how to read a dog and can get a dog to quickly understand and comply willingly
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
True story from a guy down here.
Goes on a yahoo list a few years ago, proclaiming the great results he got from using an ecollar on his pup. He picked up a book on ecollars, slapped one on his dog and started training. At first, apparently it worked pretty well.
About a year later, he gets on the same yahoo list all torn up. The pup was now exhibiting behavioral issues big-time. Fearful, snapping at people, etc. To the point where the guy was considering finding a new home for the dog.
I have not personally used an e-collar. I'm actually considering the use of one right now, but before that happens, I'm going to take the time to learn proper usage. From what I've seen of the use of one, I think they've gotten a bad rap. So I don't blame the e-collar for that dog's issues. I blame the guy who was in too much of a hurry to learn what he needed to know.
Goes on a yahoo list a few years ago, proclaiming the great results he got from using an ecollar on his pup. He picked up a book on ecollars, slapped one on his dog and started training. At first, apparently it worked pretty well.
About a year later, he gets on the same yahoo list all torn up. The pup was now exhibiting behavioral issues big-time. Fearful, snapping at people, etc. To the point where the guy was considering finding a new home for the dog.
I have not personally used an e-collar. I'm actually considering the use of one right now, but before that happens, I'm going to take the time to learn proper usage. From what I've seen of the use of one, I think they've gotten a bad rap. So I don't blame the e-collar for that dog's issues. I blame the guy who was in too much of a hurry to learn what he needed to know.
http://www.socovs.com
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
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mikeyair
-
romeo212000
- Rank: 5X Champion
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- Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:18 pm
I think 3 months i way too early. Like someone else said, the dog is too young to know hat is goig on. I will say that I think everyone should test the collar on themselves before strapping it on the dog. I did that and my realitively independent 7 month old GSP usually only needs a slight nick with the collar on level 3 of 8, when she rarely needs it at all. I did start her a little younger than I had planned on the collar at 5 months but that was only because she was showing signs if great maturity, and her training was progressing very weel and only used it to reinforce Come, and No. Even then I only use it as a reinforcing tool, not training. The collar is not used to inflict pain, but instead pressure, more of an annoyance to her than anything that she learns to turn off.