How would you handle this?

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topher40
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How would you handle this?

Post by topher40 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:27 pm

I got my new Pointing Dog Journal in yesterday and was reading the article entitled "Cancer 101" which sparked a question in my head. First let me quote what invoked the question:
Treatments
Once you know the type, aggressiveness, and extent of spread, a plan of action can be formulated. This will vary tremendously given the condition of the dog (level of illness, age etc.); availability of expertise and equipment, expected prognosis after treatment (e.g. ability to hunt or breed again); and more.

Question is, if you had a dog that had cancer would you even consider saving the dog to breed. Am I not right in thinking that this is partially a genetic trait that could be passed to future offspring? To me it seems ridiculous to even consider breeding a dog that has a crippling or deadly trait to pass on to future generations. With conversations on this board outlining reasons not to breed I believe I already know the answer. :lol: I know what I would do but what would you do?
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Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:38 pm

I would breed the dog as far as I know today unless there were several in the dogs litter or dogs that are close in the pedigree that had it. That would show a weakness that might be genetic but if it is just that dog then I would treat it like any other desease.

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Post by kninebirddog » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:40 pm

Nope I do not think that would be a worthy dog to Breed either.
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Post by CherrystoneWeims » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:43 pm

Nope I would not use the dog in a breeding program. Cancer is normal cells that have gone haywire and rapidly mutated and grown. So something has gone haywire in the dog.
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Post by topher40 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:46 pm

Cherry-
My thoughts exactly, although there can be environmental situations that could contribute to cancer but why take the chance.
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Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:46 pm

Show all of us the link to being genetic. I would guess the dog was exposed to 2nd hand smoke. Or at least that is what most cancer is blamed on here in IL

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Post by topher40 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:50 pm

Ezzy-
I wasnt saying that cancer is genetic, but then again what proof is there that it isnt? I will check back in a bit, got to go have a cancer stick! :lol:
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Post by ohiogsp » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:55 am

Cancer can be gentic and then it may not be, in humans that is. I am sure it would be that way in dogs also. They can now look at human genes and see if it is genetic or not. I don't know if this is possiable with dogs but don't know why not other than extreme costs. So to answer your question maybe, maybe not. I would not take the chance if I did not have some testing done.
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Post by dog dr » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:17 am

most dogs that get cancer are older- at least 8 or better. SO, if these dogs are worth their salt, they most likely have already been allowed to reproduce. the other thing to consider is, as we constantly take better care of our animals, they live longer lives, and dont succumb to more common ailments like heartworms, poor nutrition, hit by car, etc. that means that there are alot of dogs today that will die from cancer, simply because they werent killed by something else earlier. Now, are those dogs more susceptible to cancer?? Probably. Is their a genetic component to it?? no one knows for sure. But a 3 or 4 yr old field champion that is in perfect health, and would be given a clean bill of health from any vet in the country, is just as likey to get cancer later in life as any other dog. does any of that make sense?? i didnt sleep well last night!

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Post by AHGSP » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:39 am

Is anyone here familiar with the Canine Genome Project?

http://research.nhgri.nih.gov/dog_genome/

And YES, I may breed them, everything else being exceptional, because as dog dr suggested, you wouldn't know they had Cancer until they had most likely been bred a time or 2 already.
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Post by 1vizsla » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:53 am

Cancer is genetic in that is gives the dog a predisposition for a particular type of cancer but does not guarantee that the dog will get that cancer. That is why some in a litter may get and others not(kind of like a loaded gun, you never know). It is not known what will trigger it but it is something they are working on. One report I read stated that 85% of dogs that died under the age of 8, died from cancer. Check out www.acvimfoundation.org. It is a foundation that is researching treatments and such. A member of our Dock Dogs club started the "Chase Away K9 Cancer fund" after her dog Chase (Willamette's Chase'n Black Smoke MH) died from nasal carcinoma.

No, I would not consider this dog for breeding but that is me.

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Post by AHGSP » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:04 am

1vizsla wrote:Cancer is genetic in that is gives the dog a predisposition for a particular type of cancer but does not guarantee that the dog will get that cancer. That is why some in a litter may get and others not(kind of like a loaded gun, you never know). It is not known what will trigger it but it is something they are working on. One report I read stated that 85% of dogs that died under the age of 8, died from cancer. Check out www.acvimfoundation.org. It is a foundation that is researching treatments and such. A member of our Dock Dogs club started the "Chase Away K9 Cancer fund" after her dog Chase (Willamette's Chase'n Black Smoke MH) died from nasal carcinoma.

No, I would not consider this dog for breeding but that is me.

Carla
Carla,

That's a big site, could you point me to the link that makes the case of predisposition?
Also, consider this example: ALL Large Breed dogs have the "genetic predisposition"(big and heavy) to have Dysplacia, OCD and a host of other skeletal issues; Does this suggest that we should stop breeding ALL Large Breed dogs, which many/most of our Sporting Breed dogs are considered as being?
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Post by WildRose » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:28 am

Does this suggest that we should stop breeding ALL Large Breed dogs, which many/most of our Sporting Breed dogs are considered as being?
No but as most of us breeders have figured out you greatly reduce the risk of producing dysplastic dogs by not breeding those known to have dysplasia, thus eliminating them from the gene pool.

When you look at family histories it's clear that certain cancers occur at alarming rates in some blood lines. Unfortunately most cancers don't appear at an early age, thus if the dog/bitch is of sufficient quality may well be bred many times prior to diagnosis.

Fortunately when cancers typically don't appear until well beyond age eight the dog has already had a pretty full and productive life. It's the equivalent of someone dying at 65 of cancer rather than 90 of congestive heart failure. While we tend to enjoy our grand parents and great grand parents and they truly do contribute to our lives in many ways, their greatest contribution to the gene pool is typically done before age sixty five. The same with dogs living 8 vs 12 years.

I would never breed a dog that had any cancer that can be shown to be heritible, and I would never breed a dog or breed to a dog that comes from a line that is known to produce cancerous offspring at an early age.

To many people breeing is all about producing the next winner, and very few dogs do much winning beyond age eight. Therefore they don't consider it a huge loss for a dog to die at between eight and ten years of age.

To the majority of people who buy a dog as a family hunting companion though there is a big emotional investment in the dog by the whole family and those extra four or more healthy years means a great deal.

As for treatments. I've had a couple of dogs come down with cancer at 12-14. If surgical intervention can extend their lives in a comfortable manner we take the surgical option. I will not however put one through chemo. CR
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Post by 1vizsla » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:59 pm

That site was only for an organization that was performing cancer research. The propensity for cancer in certain families (humans), species, breeds, lines, and litters came straight from my genetics book while in lab school. My family is a prime example it is hard to find someone who died that wasn't from cancer. We have already been told it is probably not a matter of if we get cancer but when and what type. However on the flip side, no diabetes, high blood pressure, heart problems, etc.. (I know too much info). But the point is certain lines do or can have a higher rate of certain diseases. Should we not try to eliminate all the bad things we can when we breed? If something happens after a breeding then notify all owners of puppies to keep an eye out. To find out before a breeding, then it is my decision not to breed.

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Post by ward myers » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:01 pm

i bought a line breed mosegaurd puppy she outlived her entire littermates,she died at age 7 from cancer,the entire litter of 10 or 12 all died of cancer!
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Post by AHGSP » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:28 pm

oops! See below!
Last edited by AHGSP on Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by WildRose » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:30 pm

You got the wrong side of he line Ward. Most of what I have is heavily Moesgaard breeding. I've had one that we put down at 12 with cancer, and one at 16. CR
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Post by AHGSP » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:31 pm

WildRose wrote:
Does this suggest that we should stop breeding ALL Large Breed dogs, which many/most of our Sporting Breed dogs are considered as being?
No but as most of us breeders have figured out you greatly reduce the risk of producing dysplastic dogs by not breeding those known to have dysplasia, thus eliminating them from the gene pool.

When you look at family histories it's clear that certain cancers occur at alarming rates in some blood lines. Unfortunately most cancers don't appear at an early age, thus if the dog/bitch is of sufficient quality may well be bred many times prior to diagnosis.

Fortunately when cancers typically don't appear until well beyond age eight the dog has already had a pretty full and productive life. It's the equivalent of someone dying at 65 of cancer rather than 90 of congestive heart failure. While we tend to enjoy our grand parents and great grand parents and they truly do contribute to our lives in many ways, their greatest contribution to the gene pool is typically done before age sixty five. The same with dogs living 8 vs 12 years.

I would never breed a dog that had any cancer that can be shown to be heritible, and I would never breed a dog or breed to a dog that comes from a line that is known to produce cancerous offspring at an early age.

To many people breeing is all about producing the next winner, and very few dogs do much winning beyond age eight. Therefore they don't consider it a huge loss for a dog to die at between eight and ten years of age.

To the majority of people who buy a dog as a family hunting companion though there is a big emotional investment in the dog by the whole family and those extra four or more healthy years means a great deal.

As for treatments. I've had a couple of dogs come down with cancer at 12-14. If surgical intervention can extend their lives in a comfortable manner we take the surgical option. I will not however put one through chemo. CR
I can completely understand and agree with what you're saying Charlie. Sticking with the original suggestion, I would likely have to reconsider my first answer and look more in depth. The reality that said dog has most likely already been bred by the time Cancer was discovered though, it would more likely become a question of how many times was the dog bred and now; What to do about all of the pups from that dog?
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Post by WildRose » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:33 pm

I can completely understand and agree with what you're saying Charlie. I guess it would more likely become a question of how many times was the dog bred and now; What to do about all of the pups from that dog?
Bruce that's just something each individual breeder has to decide for themselves.

Just think how far science has come in the last fifteen years. Prior to that we didn't even have a way to positively identify parentage. In another ten years we'll most likely be able to DNA a puppy and before it's six months old know it's likelihood of developing a long list of diseases from cancer to heart disease to dysplasia and on and on. CR
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Post by ward myers » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:06 pm

wild rose ,im very sorry no offense ment,please accept my opology,i just had a very bad experience!
that particular litter probally was way closer to inbred then line bred
she was a heck of a bird dog ,but it was enough to steer me to different blood lines :(

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Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:44 am

I've lost dog's to cancer from 2 1/2 on up. So far of my personal dog's, I've lost four to cancer. I assume it is hereditary in dog's just like people. My wife has a close friend whose entire family on the women's side has contracted cancer. Don't see why dog's can't be the same. Wouldn't buy one from lines I knew carried cancer, however that must be the most difficult thing with dog's there is to check on.
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Post by ohiogsp » Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:37 am

I don't know if dogs are diffferent than people but I can tell you with 100 percent certianty that there is a cancer gene in humans. Plus they can test for it. Also not all people have the gene that get cancer. I have talked with some of the best cancer people in the country over the last couple years cause my 26 year old wife had breast cancer. I would assume it is the same in dogs. Why wouldn't it be?
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Post by jwenorthpark » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:20 am

i couldn't resist this one -- largely because its so related to what i do at work. there are a few misconceptions which appear to pervade the discussion so far, all of which stem from our willingness to speak in generalities:

1) when we talk about "cancer", in humans or in any other mammal, we are not speaking medically of any single type of cell. there are many, many known, scientifically described forms of cancer which are identified by toxicologists according to the sort of structures that groups of these cells form, the type of tissue in which they originated, the rate at which they multiply, etc...
the bottom line: talking about cancer is like talking about cars. you've got to know that there are a million models made by a million manufacturers out there. all you mean is roughly 4 wheels and some method of propulsion, and you're including everything from a volkswagon beetle to a duramax diesel in the mix.

2) ascribing a single characteristic to this vast array of subcategories, in this case saying that "cancer" is genetic, is a bit like saying all cars have a V10 engine. it just isn't true or really an effective way to go about making decisions.

if you have the time, the energy, the money, and the interest and your brood bitch develops cancer, you can either make an uninformed decision based on a generality, or do some more investigating. my recommendation would be to find a way to get a biopsy of the tumor, take it to a toxicologist (and boy does this sound like a lot of effort, even to me) and have them do their best to relate the type of cell they find, the physician's diagnosis, and the location of the malignancy to known cases with genetic expression. at the very least, you should check with a knowledgeable physician about whether or not the particular flavor of cancer you're dealing with is likely to be genetic. however, because many cancers are statistically genetic, a decision to breed should not, in my opinion, be the failsafe, all other issues aside. i hope my breeder (and i'm not one here, so i really can't presume to speak for the more experienced people on this board) would choose not to breed a dog with cancer until he or she could be assured there was a very low likelihood of that cancer having a genetic trait that might express in my best friend and hunting partner.

come to think of it, i might just ask that question next time i get around to the nitty gritty of picking a kennel... it'd reveal a lot.

sorry for being long-winded. maybe there are physicians on the board or medical professionals that can add to my little ramble here with better or clearer information.

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Post by AHGSP » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:31 am

EXCELLENT post jwe..... but now I have another 100 questions to answer for myself! :lol:
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Post by WildRose » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:41 pm

Ward no offense taken at all believe me. I also know exactly how you feel, read this sometime.

http://www.wildrosegermanshorthairs.com ... t_ones.htm The inspiration for that poem was watching Old Man Moose Slowly fade away over his last few months with cancer, along with the loss of My old "wonder dog" Rags.

These dogs get way, WAY too deep in our hearts sometimes.

I used to use an old saying of mine as a signature line on these bb's that went:

"The cruelest joke ever played by God on Man is in making us outlive so many fine dogs". There's a truth in that which can only be appreciated by "real dog people".

JW is completely correct in how we are generalizing a long list of different diseases which are all considered to be "cancer".

However without a doubt we have clear genetic linkage with some cancers, while none with others, and some that seem to fall into a gray area of "some linkage". In order to begin to assign genetic considerations you need to have a good histopathology report that clearly identifies exactly what type of "cancer" you are looking at to make a completely informed decision as to what to do. CR
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Post by CherrystoneWeims » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:23 pm

my recommendation would be to find a way to get a biopsy of the tumor, take it to a toxicologist (and boy does this sound like a lot of effort, even to me) and have them do their best to relate the type of cell they find, the physician's diagnosis, and the location of the malignancy to known cases with genetic expression.
I can't resist commenting on this.

You would not take the biopsy to a toxicologist for diagnosis. They deal in toxic substances and look for toxins. You would take the specimen to a Pathologist. Many times the pathologist can in fact pinpoint the origin of the cancer from the specimen even if the biopsy was not from the point of origin. ie. the cancer has metastasized to another part of the body such as breast cancer metastasizing to the brain.

I have one line of dogs that I was working closely with. A few generations back we had a bitch who at 3 yrs. old died of cancer. It was basically a peak and shreek (surgery to look and see what is wrong.) She was riddled with cancer. She had never been bred. Another bitch who had one side of her pedigree almost identical to a side of this bitch's pedigree died of breast cancer. She was older and spayed by the time she was diagnosed but the lump had been there for several years and at the time of death she had mets to her lymph nodes and elsewhere. The daughter of the bitch with breast cancer is currently going through chemo for treatment of Lymphoma at 7 yrs. of age. Prognosis is about 10 mos. to live. (this bitch does not live with me and I have signed off on her). One of her daughters died at age 16 mos. of adrenal gland carcinoma. Another daughter was diagnosed this past fall with breast cancer at the age of 4 yrs. Thankfully we caught it early before she was bred and also at an early stage. These were two different litters with two different sires.

Hmmmm I would have to say that there is SOME genetic component wouldn't you???

BTW my husband is a hematopathologist. He specializes in Leukemia. HE is the one who diagnosed the bitch with Lymphoma after the veterinarians said there was nothing wrong with her. I insisted that a needle aspiration be given to him. Veterinary pathology confirmed his diagnosis. I send all biopsies to my husband as he can give an even more specific diagnosis in many cases. He also diagnosed the adrenal gland carcinoma after being sent the kidney from the bitch with that and also the breast cancer after being sent a lymph node from the groin area of the bitch who died.
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Post by Holden05 » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:34 pm

Nearly every cell has the potential to turn cancerous. There could be genetic links, but the issue with cancer is the trigger. What turns the cancer on, what keeps the normal immune system from killing the bad cells. I personally don't know if I would breed a dog after it had cancer, depends on what kind. However, I think it is a stretch to exclude the dog and call it a genetic trait in every case. There is unlimited potential for cancer in every dog. Cancer is mainly unpredictable and largely random.

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Post by ohiogsp » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:35 pm

The first question many people are asked when they think some thing is not right or that they may have cancer is? How many people in your family have had cancer? My wife had to do a family tree to show everyone in her family that had cancer and what kind it was. I can't believe some people think it might not be genetic. Some casses are not but some are. Insurance companies pay for testing for brca-1 and brca-2 ( breast cancer genes) testing all the time. In my wifes case hers was not genetic (or the tecnoligy they have now says so) she did not carry them and we could have kids without worring about passing it down. This makes me believe that they have proof of cancer genes. I will tell you one thing that I know for sure is cancer is something that you have to research all the time cause it is constantly changing. Or what we think is. Even some of the doctors around our area did not know what they were talking about. One here put my wife on a horriable hormone injection because he had no clue what he was doing. We researched it and changed doctors because the studies were that it would not even help my wife with the cancer she had. Also the tumor that was removed from her was never even sent for Onco testing (this tells you the likely hood that the cancer will return) which is very improtant to know if you are 25 years old. Plus this helps with deciding on the treatment course. Point is cancer is something that if you don't research all the time the stuff you know might be out of date. I don't know what the chances are that a dog would pass it down. Maybe 50/50 who knows (no one does) but if the dog is young enought to breed and has cancer I would not take my chance and would think most would not either.
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Post by ward myers » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:51 pm

wildrose ,one of the guys i work with is always talking about booking a hunt with you & getting a pup from you, i bought a DK locally ,he didnt work out for me ,so i gave it to him . it had no interest in birds but is the best local hog dog first on the hog & usally has it caught before the pitt bulls show up

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Post by Buckeye_V » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:38 pm

First of all I would breed the dog - if it was a proven dog and all other health issues were not a problem.

I will ask my resource on cancer and genetics who was her Ph. D from OSU in biochemistry and has done extensive cancer research for the last 7 years and who has been published for her work.....

I can also get the opinion of a vetinary reproductive specialist form THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY

P.S. They may not be able to play football, but they have some "bleep" good scientists. :wink:
We have done something with nothing for so long we are now qualified to do everything with anything....

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ezzy333
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Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:27 pm

I am not aware any cancer is genetic. There definitely is a condition that allows you to get a certain cancer that seems to be genetic. Early in this thread I posted I would breed her unless there is a history within her family that would allow you to think she could be predeposed to have it.

If I am right, the decision to be made is it just an isolated example or is there evidence that there is a genetic immune weakness that allows the cancer to invade the family she is from. Isolated example, I would breed, genetic weakness I would not.

Ezzy
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Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Post by Buckeye_V » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:04 pm

There are a lot of "depends". First of all, it depends on what type of cancer. Some cancers are environmentally caused. There is a theory that dogs that are used for hunting tend to get cancer more often becaused they are exposed to pesticides. So related dogs that have been exposed to the same toxins may develop the same cancers. There is also the theory that dogs today are getting "more" cancer simply due to the fact that we have increased the average life span of dogs. Dogs that develop cancer later in life previously would have passed due age before the cancer developed/was detected.

There are genes that predispose animals to cancer, hence the genetic testing for breast cancer in humans (like ohiogsp said, BRCA1 and 2). But to determine if a cancer is genetic, a known gene(s) would have to be identified, a biopsy sent to a veternary canine pathologist (not all human pathologists have the ability to diagnose animal cancers, and not a toxicologist) for positive identification, and multiple animals in the same pedigree have tested positive for expression of the same gene(s). Once cancer-causing gene clusters have been identified within the pedigree, then you can say with some degree of confidence that the cancer is hereditary.

All that aside, breeding the dog would depend on a lot of factors. When did the cancer show up? Has it shown up in other dogs with similar pedigrees? How debilitating is the cancer? Is the cancer recurrent? Is it metastatic? Should people with cancer have children? It is not a simple yes or no answer. JMHO.

Stephanie Allen, PhD
Department of Pathology
The Ohio State University Medical Center
We have done something with nothing for so long we are now qualified to do everything with anything....

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