My new Thunderhead Puppy

[Greg Jennings]

Tri-color is a fault in every registry that I know of. Gelber-brand is not tri-color.

The black issue is completely different. It's a question of a difference between well-recognized and supported standards. (Now, I know there are a bunch of downstream issues...I don't think they're relevant to this discussion)

So, if I bred a GSP that looked like a Chow, that'd be OK? Where does one draw the line?

While I'm at it, I'm not addressing whether the breeding of the pup in the original post was responsible or not. I'm strictly addressing full-up tri color GSPs.

[ezzy333]

In all honesty, this disagreement is all based on opinions and nothing more! For those of you who say that a tri-color is a fault _Great! For those of you who say that a tri-color is not a fault-Great! It is only considered a fault to AKC, just as the black is. You can still hunt and test with them as you would any other GSP. The only thing you can't do is show in conformation in AKC but you can show in conformation in German shows. So to say that this breeder is irresponsible is ridiculous! He is still breeding excellent dogs and has the proof to show all of you. He is NOT doing anything to hinder this breed at all, some of his dogs have these genes and there is nothing wrong with that unless you only agree with AKC. Don't forget where these dogs originated from.

It appears you don't understand what a standard is and where it comes from. AKC has absolutely nothing to do with your breed standard. The standard was written years ago by people who joined the GSP club and was voted on by the members. That means people like you and then it was presented to AKC when they recognized the breed as purebred and agreed to keep the stub book for the GSP club.

So your argument is with your fellow breeders and not AKC. The reason you can't show an off colored dog is because a show is comparing dogs to the standard you have set and awarding the ones that come closest to it. And of course, that means disqualifying and dogs that the your standard says is a disqualification and it does not meet the standard of the breed. It's easy to say it is just color but since color doesn't mean anything to some what are you going to do when someone starts breeding GSPs with prick ears. They are just ears. What about a pug nose? Without a standard which is just a description of what a GSP should look like there will be dogs bred ,called GSPs, that you or I would not recognize as GSPs. When that happens you no longer have a breed.

If you are convinced the standard needs changing then you need to work with your fellow breeders and get it changed and not just decide to ignore it and breed whatever you want and then call it a GSP.


Ezzy

[Supercalifragilistic]

I think you missed the point I was making. I do know what a standard is and why they have it. What I am saying is that this gene to produce tri-color or black gsps is in the bloodlines of some dogs and it didn't come from anyone carelessly breeding these dogs. It stems from long ago. You are only concerned with the American GSP and that is fine. However, what is so wrong with having or breeding GSPS that come from a more German decent and may have these genes. See it really goes back to ones opinion.

[Greg Jennings]

I think you missed the point I was making. I do know what a standard is and why they have it. What I am saying is that this gene to produce tri-color or black gsps is in the bloodlines of some dogs and it didn't come from anyone carelessly breeding these dogs. It stems from long ago. You are only concerned with the American GSP and that is fine. However, what is so wrong with having or breeding GSPS that come from a more German decent and may have these genes. See it really goes back to ones opinion.

What is wrong with breeding tri-color GSPs is that they are considered to be *not* purebred GSPs by every standard on the planet. I thas nothing to do with an American standard vs a German standard.

From earlier in the thread -

Ron told me in September at the Invitational that this breeding had the potential to produce some tri-colors. Fritz, who is owned by a friend of Ron's has a bit of tri-color marking, Carmen (the dam) and Fritz share the same sire. The recessive gene is carried by both sire and dam of this pup so I doubt if there are any Dobes in the wood pile. Good luck with your pup, he might not fit the standard as far as color but I think you will be very pleased with his performance.

So, the breeding was basically done knowing that there would be tri-colors. Now, as long as the pups that are tri-colored are sold on a limited registration and never bred, I have no problem with it.

What I do have a problem with is people doing this sort of thing, then selling them as "rare".

[Supercalifragilistic]

The thing is, is that, that puppy is purebred. Hands down and no one can argue that. Back in the early 1935 Shorthairs were bred interchangebly with colors of liver, black and tri-colors. It was the early imports to America that were cross bred with springers and other hunting dogs and then were sold as "purebred". That says a lot about how AKC came up with standards against these colors because of the cross breeding going on.

[ezzy333]

The thing is, is that, that puppy is purebred. Hands down and no one can argue that. Back in the early 1935 Shorthairs were bred interchangebly with colors of liver, black and tri-colors. It was the early imports to America that were cross bred with springers and other hunting dogs and then were sold as "purebred". That says a lot about how AKC came up with standards against these colors because of the cross breeding going on.

The color standard was changed in Germany because of potential cross breeding with pointers from what I understand. But it is interesting that you seem to know something I have never heard before. Were you there when they were breeding all of these colors and also when they were breeding to other breeds? Wonder why no one reported it back then.

Ezzy

[GrayDawg]

what is so wrong with having or breeding GSPS that come from a more German decent and may have these genes. See it really goes back to ones opinion.

One German bred dog in 3 gens. does not make a dog of German decent IMO.

.......which would equate to a dog that is 1/14th "of German decent"
Or if we're talking breeding co-efficients, a dog that is 7.15% "of German decent"......... which isn't much at all.

Rob

[Supercalifragilistic]

The thing is, is that, that puppy is purebred. Hands down and no one can argue that. Back in the early 1935 Shorthairs were bred interchangebly with colors of liver, black and tri-colors. It was the early imports to America that were cross bred with springers and other hunting dogs and then were sold as "purebred". That says a lot about how AKC came up with standards against these colors because of the cross breeding going on.

The color standard was changed in Germany because of potential cross breeding with pointers from what I understand. But it is interesting that you seem to know something I have never heard before. Were you there when they were breeding all of these colors and also when they were breeding to other breeds? Wonder why no one reported it back then.

Ezzy

The sarcasim really isn't necessary. It is important to remember that we all do not know EVERYTHING and that it is okay to be wrong and learn at times. Obviously I wasn't there but that is something that I read in many different articles.

[Greg Jennings]

The puppy is pure bred. The sire has a bit of tri color. The sire and dam share the same sire. The sire was known to throw tri color. How would you feel about breeding a GSP that was solid red a'la Vizsla? Known to be a GSP, but with a somatic mutation that makes it solid red??

BTW, the information that I have read indicates that the original GSPCA standard was taken directly from the German standard at that time.

There are three classes of systems out there today:

1. The German-type system that is tightly controlled. There is extensive standardized testing and examination before being authorized to breed.

2. The AKC/GSPCA-type system, were there is a defined, written standard, but the breeding decision is left to the individual

3. The FDSB-type system where there is no written conformation standard; everything is based on performance and the breeding decision is left up to the breeder.

I have no problem with any of these systems. Just want people to be clear about what system they're in.

[ezzy333]

The thing is, is that, that puppy is purebred. Hands down and no one can argue that. Back in the early 1935 Shorthairs were bred interchangebly with colors of liver, black and tri-colors. It was the early imports to America that were cross bred with springers and other hunting dogs and then were sold as "purebred". That says a lot about how AKC came up with standards against these colors because of the cross breeding going on.

The color standard was changed in Germany because of potential cross breeding with pointers from what I understand. But it is interesting that you seem to know something I have never heard before. Were you there when they were breeding all of these colors and also when they were breeding to other breeds? Wonder why no one reported it back then.

Ezzy

The sarcasim really isn't necessary. It is important to remember that we all do not know EVERYTHING and that it is okay to be wrong and learn at times. Obviously I wasn't there but that is something that I read in many different articles.

Wasn't trying to be sarcastic. just wondered if you were personally aware of this happening. I was around shortly after that time but had never heard of it so naturally I was curious.

I will admit I tend to question things that don't sound plausible to me and find out sometimes it was true but more often is just hearsay and no one can find any evidence it ever happened. And I also am concerned when people ignore the things they don't agree with rather than changing the rules.

Ezzy

[Supercalifragilistic]

I was not there when this was happening here and in Germany-that was way before my time! I am just saying this is what I read in several articles through my own research going back to Dr. Thorton and others. I am not saying I am right or wrong- I am just stated what I read.

[Adam]

dock some tails and and we got "tri-colors"

How about some DNA proof?

[Adam]

Unfortunately all DNA will show us is correct Sire and Dam. I wise we could dig deeper. Then again maybe we can.

and I have a feeling if you do a few generations you might find the root of the problem.....

[Reech]

If you are convinced the standard needs changing then you need to work with your fellow breeders and get it changed and not just decide to ignore it and breed whatever you want and then call it a GSP.

Ezzy

Amen!

Reech

[Supercalifragilistic]

As long as the breeder is breeding dogs for confomation, health, temperment, and performance I don't see why "color" could ever change the dog. All in all color does not matter as much as the attributes I listed above. Now if those were being changed I would have a problem. But, lets face it, color is not being changed. It has been there for years and years and it is a matter of opinion on what one person wants to own as their own GSP. All of the standards are based on opinion and can be changed if need be. It is basically like me saying that I only think GSP's should be liver roans, not solid or with patches or even hot ticking- just straight up liver roan; and if they are not then I don't consider them a GSP. Sounds ridiculous right?

[snips]

Super, are you Democrat?

[Boxa]

I was not there when this was happening here and in Germany-that was way before my time! I am just saying this is what I read in several articles through my own research going back to Dr. Thorton and others. I am not saying I am right or wrong- I am just stated what I read.

Can you produce these "many" and "several" articles supporting your postition? I'm from Missour-ah, you've got to show me...

[Boxa]

Dear Moderators... can we PLEASE make this a Hall of Fame Post!???!!???!!!

[ezzy333]

Hall of Fame for what a responsible breeder should breed for. This sounds like the perfect example of lets all do what makes us feel good and forget the rules that everyone else thinks is important. Does sound like a Democrat now that I think about it but can't say it as we are not political on the forum. I have this same argument about size in the Brits. Just hard to believe what some people who profess to be responsible breeders will do and how they try to justify it.

Ezzy

[ACooper]

Oh crap someone dug this one up again!!!!!!! :roll: