In The AF

rschuster54303` · Post by **rschuster54303`** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:35 pm

Old results but its in the AF this week so I figured I would post the brag.

My 15 month old male Schuster's Magnum took first in the walking Amature Shooting Dog and took 3rd in puppy at a trial hosted by the Green Bay Pointing Dog Club. I must admit it was a miserable day as it rained steady the whole day. But I cant complain too much with the results.

This was 2 weeks after winning derby(3 point) and taking 3rd in puppy at the Minnesota GSP club's trial. This was in the AF about 3 weeks ago, as it was a dual registered trail.

BTW thanks Chris for a very fun trial.

Thanks for reading.

Maverick · Post by **Maverick** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:27 pm

Congrats!!! Sounds like the dogs are performing great for you.

Mav....

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:03 am

Wow! That's neat! I don't think I've ever heard of placing in both a puppy stake and a broke dog stake at the same trial with the same dog!

I did see a dog win an All Age Derby classic one day and a shooting dog championship the next a couple years ago.

I don't do AKC much but how do you get 3 pts. in a derby? I know AF doesn't offer points unless for some sort of dog of the year deal.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:21 am

Rob

I saw your smiling mug in the field yesterday, great job by you and Magnum.

Thanks for coming out to our trial, hopefully I'll see you again out this way next year.

DG

AKC points are based upon number of starters in a stake, they differ slightly in amateur stakes as 2nd and 3rd place finishes are awarded points sooner, but here is the breakdown for the open side of things

4-7 starters 1 pt
8-12 2 pt
13-17 3 pt
18-24 4 pt
25+ 5 pt, plus 2nd place is worth 1 pt.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:40 am

Thanks! The point schedule you're referring to is for broke dog stakes.

I thought max points for a puppy or derby was 2 pts. so am thrown off by the 3 pt. derby??

pttrrff · Post by **pttrrff** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:53 am

the point schedule is the same for adult and juvenile stakes. you can only use 2 puppy or 2 derby points towards an fc, you can earn more.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:23 pm

you can use 2 puppy points, and 2 derby points, total of 4 "young dog stake" points. everything else must be broke dog stakes.

small footnote, there is a requirement that 4 points must be in retrieving stakes for GSP's, GWP's. our local club used to hold Ret. Derby stakes years ago. never really worked out.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:01 pm

I understand you can earn more than the two points allowed for both puppy/derby stakes winning at multiple trials. I guess I've never heard of getting 3pts. (or more) for a single puppy or derby win. I have always been under the impression that the most points you can get with any single puppy or derby win is 2 points, regardless of number of entries.

So, for example, are you guys saying that if there are 30 dogs in a puppy or derby stake, the winner gets 5 pts. (of which only two will count towards a FC/AFC)?

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:51 pm

yes, you have it in your last sentence. the only reason the extra points are important are: (1) bragging rights ("my dog won a 5 pt. derby stake!") and (2) computation of Derby of the Year, for what that is worth. DerOY uses the total number of derby points won during the year.

Most people pull their dog out of derby when they have their derby points, unless there is some special reason to run them in derby for awhile. The reason for pulling them out is that anything can happen in those young dog stakes, and if you are trying to steady a dog, the derby bracemates can really be a detriment. and then there are the trials where birds are wet, or dying out of the trailer, etc. Quite while you are ahead, in other words. So DerOY is not a big competition. Some people do it, lots don't.

The real mark of the quality of a dog is performance in broke dog stakes, especially the Championships. So Derby success is forgotten quickly.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:51 pm

Doug,

Here's a link to the derby results where the winner received 5 points, as there were 33 dogs that ran:

http://www.akc.org/events/search/index. ... 2004351304

The results don't tell the whole story on that stake, as there were actually 71 dogs drawn for the open derby. More than half the field scratched because of the heat and the length of the stake.

Of course, only 2 points are carried towards the FC title. Also, the dog still needs a major win (3 pts or better) in a broke dog stake for his FC title. 3 point or better puppy/derby wins don't count.

FWIW,
Dave

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:09 pm

The real mark of the quality of a dog is performance in broke dog stakes, especially the Championships. So Derby success is forgotten quickly.

There are of course some exceptions but rarely do you see a DerOY go on to be a great broke dog. All those bad habits that come from running in derby after derby just to get points can be awful difficult to cure, sometimes never can be fixed.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:27 pm

Is it not true that if your dog doesnt have its puppy points and that dog wins a 4 point or better derby those 4 points CAN go toward the FC

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:57 pm

Is it not true that if your dog doesnt have its puppy points and that dog wins a 4 point or better derby those 4 points CAN go toward the FC

That is incorrect.

From the AKC rulebook:

FIELD CHAMPIONSHIP
At present a dog of one of the Pointing Breeds
will be recorded a Field Champion after having
won 10 points under the point rating schedule
below in regular stakes in at least three licensed or
member field trials, provided that 3 points have
been won in one 3 point or better Open All-Age,
Open Gun Dog, Open Limited All-Age, or Open
Limited Gun Dog Stake, that no more than 2
points each have been won in Open or Amateur
Puppy and Open or Amateur Derby Stakes, and
that no more than 4 of the 10 points have been won
by placing first in Amateur Stakes;

You can only use 2 puppy and/or 2 derby points towards your FC.

Amateur rules read the same way.

FWIW,
Dave

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:58 pm

Huh, learn somethin' everyday. It always just made sense to me to award up to 2pts. in a puppy or derby stake no matter the number of entries since that's all that can count in each towards a FC anyway. I always figured the points schedule just applied to broke dog stakes.

I was wondering also if points are awarded towards a dogs FC/AFC with wins at the Nat'l trials?? Was wondering also if AF championship wins might qualify a dog to run in AKC Nat'ls? Can you tell I don't chase around AKC FC/AFC points?

I did go to the Inland Empire GSP trial the last two years...got in the OAA callbacks and didn't know you were supposed to wear orange and my dog hadn't retrieved a bird since the previous hunting season. It made his day I'm sure! Next day, made the AAA callbacks and my dog broke on the shot like he'd never been trained. Hoke laughed his "bleep" off and said that's what happens to all you AF boys when you let your dog retrieve a bird!! Pretty funny.

Mary · Post by **Mary** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:51 pm

Doug

I was wondering also if points are awarded towards a dogs FC/AFC with wins at the Nat'l trials??

In a GSP AKC National event if you win your dog becomes a FC or AFC no matter how many points you needed going into the stake.

Mary

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:22 pm

I always figured the points schedule just applied to broke dog stakes.

Doug, I don't think anyone really knew about it until the AKC started offering performance records online.

I was wondering also if points are awarded towards a dogs FC/AFC with wins at the Nat'l trials??

Yes, AKC points are awarded In addition, if you win an AKC Open Championship (AA or GD) you not only get the National Title (i.e NFC) you also get the FC title by default (assuming you are not already a FC). Win an amateur stake and you get the NAFC and the AFC titles.

The futurity is a different deal; it isn't a registered AKC event and is seen as a non-standard club stake so no points are awarded and the results are not posted by the AKC.

Was wondering also if AF championship wins might qualify a dog to run in AKC Nat'ls?

No can do, at least for GSPs. The Brittany folks have less of a split between their AKC and AF events, and they will actually run some of their AF championships as AKC events. (The Brittany folks have got their trial planning system down pat, and puts our GSP stuff to shame). So, for many of the Brittany hour championships you can walk away with the CH title and points towards your AKC title.

There is nothing stopping us GSP folks from running our NGSPA trials as AKC events as well other than tradition and politics.

We can run hour stakes in AKC weekend trials and well as running wild bird trials as AKC events. We just don't do it today.

As to all breed AF events getting you qualified for the GSPCA nationals I wouldn't hold my breath.

got in the OAA callbacks and didn't know you were supposed to wear orange

Sorry about that - byproduct of an oranization that's not yet taken the easy way out of things. IMO it's one of the biggest failures of the AF.

Sorry about rambling on - probably far more than you wanted to know.

Dave

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:27 pm

There is nothing stopping us GSP folks from running our NGSPA trials as AKC events as well other than tradition and politics.

except, except, except

for the problem with the yellow brike road diehards in the AKC. we would start hearing about the flat walk pace, etc. etc. in the NGSPA stakes. one thing that distinguishes the two types of events, AKC and NGSPA, is the more freewheeling handling and scouting style, more AF like, that is allowed in the NGSPA because those are run under AF rules. true to an extent, even in the National level AKC events.

As to all breed AF events getting you qualified for the GSPCA nationals I wouldn't hold my breath.

neither AF all breed nor NGSPA Championship wins will be accepted by the AKC or the GSPCA any time in this century. the NGSPA, on the other hand, accepts FC and AFC as qualifications for their Championships, including the National Shooting Dog, and National Amateur Shooting Dog, just not the NGSPA National Championship (the All Age).

One more thing, Dave, and maybe I will have to go look in my rule book again. But I remember that decades ago, the rules specifically stated that the NFC also resulted in an FC if the dog was not already one, and the NAFC resulted in an AFC, but I looked for it a few months ago, just out of curiousity, and did not find it. I wonder, has it changed? With the advent of online records, the AKC seems to be treating the GSPCA National titles differently, they don't get on a ped. unless the owner of the dog asks. So I wonder, does their system check for the NFC and NAFC wins, and as a result of them, record an FC or AFC. Just thinking out loud.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:46 pm

John,

The "yellow brick road" is pure tradition and has no basis in the rule book. If we pick the right judges and the right field trial committee is running the show we should be fine.

On the other hand, I'd rather not see us get to the point of the AF all breed trials where you can ride forward 10 minutes, find your dog and hold them there until the judges come through the cut.

But I remember that decades ago, the rules specifically stated that the NFC also resulted in an FC if the dog was not already one, and the NAFC resulted in an AFC, but I looked for it a few months ago, just out of curiousity, and did not find it. I wonder, has it changed?

Yes it has changed; within the last year the AKC noticed and corrected the inconsistency.

FWIW,
Dave

rschuster54303` · Post by **rschuster54303`** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:48 pm

Hehe

I seem to have spawned an interesting topic.

Just to clarify, the Amature Shooting Dog stake that is held by the Green bay Pointing dog club, is a judgment ceases at the flush stake. I do not know why they do it but that is how it was judged. My magnum is improving but broke he is not

Thanks for the posts.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:52 pm

Man, I disagree with earning a FC or AFC "just" for winning a Nat'l event. Did I read that right? What if there is only a few dogs in the stake. I think the Nat'l Walking GSP deal only had 20 dogs. Certainly it makes sense to award the appropriate points for the win towards a FC/AFC.

I'd think an Open AF championship win or breed specific AF win ought to count for something in terms of qualifying for Nat'ls but that's just me thinking about maybe going to Kansas one of these years and not wanting to go to a bunch of weekend AKC trials to try and qualify!!

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:01 am

Probably alot of people would agreed with you Doug, on the National yielding an FC or AFC, but there are around 100 dogs in the National Gun Dog and same in the Am., about 60 in the AA. So on a dogs defeated basis, it is like winning four 5 point majors. These are the largest stakes in the breed, in terms of entries. They are so big, they are literally "off-the-scale" of the points rules.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:00 am

Dave-

Two things. One, I checked the Rules, and you are right they now specify that a National ch. becomes an FC or AFC if not one already. Maybe was there before, or maybe they fixed it, but it is there now.

Two, here is the "yellow brick road" rule:

"The Judges shall see to it that any mounted handler uses his horse only as a means of conveyance on the course and never as an active aid in handling. The handlers shall remain on the specified course in front of the Judges and in the Judges' line of travel, except as necessary to handle a dog that is seen on point. The Judges shall control the pace... . ... Mounted handlers must keep their horses at a flat walk at all times unless otherwise authorized by a Judge."

Now, every rule is open to interpretation, and culture plays a very large role in how rules are applied and used in the field, by Judges. But there are alotta AKC judges who read this as creating that yellow brick road, particularly in Gun Dog. AF culture is the opposite for shooting dog.

So if you have AF Championship stakes where the club also awards AKC points, you are going to have "points hunters" come in and complain that AKC rules are not being followed, not just on this, but many other issues. And the clubs that throw the Championships in AF are unique things, they operate only to put on the one-time-per-year championship, no show component, etc. There may not be a culture clash in the Britt world, but there would be in the GSP world. To pull off a cross-sanctioned trial, everyone involved has to tacitly agree that one organizations rules and culture are going to operate at the trial. Since the NGSPA is not a very "rulesy" organization, that works for the cross-sanctioned AKC weekend trials. Everybody knows they are an AKC trial, and by the way, you can get an NGSPA win certificate. But AKC and some of its adherents in the GSP world, are not always so flexible. Wish it were otherwise, cause your basic point that there should be cooperation, and that you ought to be able to get AKC points at an NGSPA trial, is a good one.

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:54 am

And congratulations.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:15 pm

Yes, that too.

If you subscribe to the GSP Chronicle, you can read all that stuff a couple of months before it gets into the Field. gspchronicle@commspeed.net

They have not been charging up to this point, but now have a $25 per year subscription fee. Very good for the quality of product they put out.

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:10 pm

I have had a heck of a time getting it to download on the puter, and forget it on webtv. Is there a GSP Gazette? Ray said Rick and I were in a pic there riding in the gallery. Maybe he meant AKC Gazette.

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