My new Thunderhead Puppy

mofro14 · Post by **mofro14** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:18 am

He is my first pup, Tri-color GSP. Picked him up from Ron on Saturday the 26th.

mofro14 · Post by **mofro14** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:20 am

Forgot to mention his name is Thunderhead's First Cruise "Cutlass", born on October 25th.

Boxa · Post by **Boxa** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:54 am

Can you post a pedigree? Would love to see it.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:09 am

I think we would all like to see that ped!! I'm also curious how much?

Dirtysteve · Post by **Dirtysteve** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:48 am

Somebody let a Gordon setter loose with his GSP while in heat

This will bother some but if I bred a litter that turned out looking like that it would never be repeated and the pups would all be fixed and given away as a half breeds.

mofro14 · Post by **mofro14** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:30 pm

Yeah he told me some people wouldn't like it, the sire was a tricolor and I was excited with the opportunity that there may be some Tri pups, there were two tri's out of the five pups. Here is his pedigree, hopefully the link works.

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=2473

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:01 pm

Hmmmmmmmmmmm I don't think he is going to do his & possibly Shooting Stars reputation much good!!
I use to raise & show Dobes & this pups markings & head shape sure fits a dobe puppy but might be different then the pics look but regardless some DNA checks are due.IMHO

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:39 pm

I think he's cool lookin'! Cute little dude for sure! Should hunt like a maniac I'd think and sounds like exactly what you're lookin' for - sounds like a good deal for both you and the pup to me! Gotta agree with folks that not the best color combo for a GSP breeder to have in their kennel but I just gotta imagine these pups are exactly what they say they are.

regardless some DNA checks are due.IMHO

I been sayin' the same thing about all them long tailed "GSP" pointer look alikes getting DNA registered into the GSP gene pool!

The good thing is we all still have the choice of what we buy, what we breed to, etc. - can always choose to say no to questionable dogs.

honeyrun · Post by **honeyrun** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:42 pm

The pup is about 10 weeks old right? His eyes should already be brown. But, on another note, the tri factor is a know factor in DK's and it crops up from time to time. The eye color goes along with the tri color. Don't discount that this pup is a pure bred GSP. Though, I certainly wouldn't breed one, to each their own devices.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:41 pm

Seems funny to me that we have all of the trial people who absolutely ignore the breed standards for size and a lot of other qualities that really make a difference to the breed but come unglued if they see a pup that is a different color. Just doesn't make sense to me. If color is important and I agree it is then the physical part of the standard is 10 times as important.

Lets at least try to be consistent in our judgement of our dogs.

Ezzy

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:42 pm

mofro14 wrote:Yeah he told me some people wouldn't like it, the sire was a tricolor and I was excited with the opportunity that there may be some Tri pups, there were two tri's out of the five pups. Here is his pedigree, hopefully the link works.

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=2473

Wild lookin pup. Nice pedigree, are you going to NAVHDA test him?

SierraMtnBrits · Post by **SierraMtnBrits** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:15 pm

Wow I have never seen a tricolor gsp before... something new everyday I guess. Good luck with him.

Boxa · Post by **Boxa** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:55 pm

Thanks for posting the info, hope you got what you were looking for. Good luck and enjoy the pup.

mofro14 · Post by **mofro14** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:40 pm

I do plan to get involved with NAVHDA, being my first dog we'll see how training and testing goes and how involved I get. I think it will be fun, and I also know that it will be time consuming but do hope that I can be successful. I can understand how some people will not like the idea of a tricolor GSP as it is not in the AKC standard, but it is accepted in the German standard known as "Gelber Brand". Being of German descent I thought it would be fun to have a rare coloring pattern on the dog. I mentioned the Gelber Brand because I do want people to know that it is something that can happen in GSPs and there hasn't been a Setter slipped into the breeding line somewhere or anything like that. I did some research before pulling the trigger on this, one article I found mentioning this coloring is linked below, and I know there were a couple more but don't have those links still. I am not trying to change opinions, I do understand why you may not agree, but just want people to know this is a GSP. He's been fun so far and yesterday he chased a quail after it flew for a little ways so that was exciting to see him do.

Article comparing different standards: http://www.dogstuff.info/breed_standard ... byrne.html
The part where they talk about coloring is near the bottom.

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:13 am

I'd love to see pics as he matures. I've never heard a bad word about Thunderhead's breeding program and they have a couple dogs on their site i would gladly take home. I didn't see the sire or the dam on their website....did the breeding come from their kennel or from two dogs from their kennel?

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:51 am

Someone enlighten me, but I have not seen the Germans breeding this color purposefully, so I wonder what they are doing with it? I do not see this color in any German websites...I have heard it can pop up in lines tho.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:46 am

can you please post pictures of the parents?

r.r.rouse · Post by **r.r.rouse** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:18 pm

Mofro14, first some questions. Are you able to only test NAVHDA. Are you able to test AKC hunt tests but not show in ring do to tri.color markings. Are you wanting to use this pup in a breeding program. If you are wanting to use in breeding program isthis only based on markings or will it be because of hunting atributes.
Back in the day the labrador retriever was disquilfied if it stood game, now breeders are selling based on lab standing game,or Pointing. Some lab breeders are making big money on what used to be a fault. I wouldn't buy a pointing lab but that is me.
I also am of German decent!
I realize that a paint job doesn't make a pup a better hunting dog. I hope you and the pup are a great hunting team and enjoy many hunts together. Just some thoughts.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:36 pm

DGFavor wrote:I think he's cool lookin'! Cute little dude for sure! Should hunt like a maniac I'd think and sounds like exactly what you're lookin' for - sounds like a good deal for both you and the pup to me! Gotta agree with folks that not the best color combo for a GSP breeder to have in their kennel but I just gotta imagine these pups are exactly what they say they are.

regardless some DNA checks are due.IMHO
I been sayin' the same thing about all them long tailed "GSP" pointer look alikes getting DNA registered into the GSP gene pool! The good thing is we all still have the choice of what we buy, what we breed to, etc. - can always choose to say no to questionable dogs.

+1
Good luck with the pup, and NAVHDA will hopefully be a great hands-on training resource for you. Would love to see more photos of him.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:50 pm

OK, I will throw this out there. Someone told me today that they read the Germans bred Doberman into Gsp's at one point to get more cat sharpness. The person that said that is searching for the book he read it in. Anyone heard this? Would explain the brown tips.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:53 pm

Brenda if you look just at this pups head shape & nothing else & compare it to a Dobe pups Head at the same age it would be hard to tell them apart.I have owned a few.

GrayDawg · Post by **GrayDawg** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:38 am

I too went to the Thunderhead website looking for a picture of the Sire..........
..... I failed to find any pictures of this pup's Sire on their website- would be very interested to see a few!

I'm wondering whether or not this was a Thunderhead breeding per se- meaning, was this pup bred by the Stott's?
If it was, I would think the Sire would at least be listed on the Thunderhead "Sires" page.

What is the name of the individual from whom you purchased this pup? I'm very curious.........
Irregardless- this dog has some BIG TIME NAVHDA kennel names in it's pedigree- and dog's who were very successful
in the NAVHDA testing program. I'm sure if you put in the work, this pup has the aptitude to really turn
out to be something- no matter what it has for a paint job! Have fun.

Rob

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:55 am

According to the NAVHDA site - VC THUNDERHEAD'S FIELD RAK'R FRITZ - Owner - THOMAS IMMEL - Thunderhead bred

And here is a link to the Thunderhead Dam http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:Evu ... =firefox-a

Agreed - tons of quality VC bred GSPs!

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:15 am

Ron told me in September at the Invitational that this breeding had the potential to produce some tri-colors. Fritz, who is owned by a friend of Ron's has a bit of tri-color marking, Carmen (the dam) and Fritz share the same sire. The recessive gene is carried by both sire and dam of this pup so I doubt if there are any Dobes in the wood pile. Good luck with your pup, he might not fit the standard as far as color but I think you will be very pleased with his performance.

Coveyrise64

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:47 pm

gpblitz wrote:
Coveyrise64 wrote:The recessive gene is carried by both sire and dam of this pup so I doubt if there are any Dobes in the wood pile. Good luck with your pup, he might not fit the standard as far as color but I think you will be very pleased with his performance.
The sire has the gene dominant. There are a ton of good dogs in Navhda that have the right paint job. Should this paint job be passed on for the sake of performance?

I'm not too concerned about who carries the dominant gene. My point is, I doubt if Ron had any intention of producing tri-colors but knew the possibility existed. If you look at the pedigrees it should be a very nice double Jake breeding but by breeding within the same gene pool you take some risk. Recessive genes can and will eventually show up. Are you suggesting the pups should have hit the water bucket? I don't think Deb would ever let that happen. I thought the purpose of a first time breeding was to provide an evaluation of the offspring. This breeding might not have produced what he was hoping for but he shouldn't be criticized for trying to improve his bloodline or carry on a line (Jake is getting up there in age) by breeding two very nice dogs. I don't know if he would repeat the breeding based on what happened but that will be his decision. Regardless of the paint job, some new owners probably got some very nice pups.

Coveyrise64

thunderhead · Post by **thunderhead** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:23 am

I have been in KS hunting with the dogs for the past several weeks, and have been out of touch for a while. With the winter storm and artic temps, I am holed up waiting out the weather. Many people will go their entire lives and never see a tri color or even hear about one. This is a rare color that goes back to the old Spanish pointer, which was part of the origin for the GSP. There are other dogs that descend from the Spanish pointer that also display this rather unique color. I am very particular in the qualities that a dog must possess for me to include them in my breeding program. I am sure that many people will not a tri color shorthair, just as many have not accepted black.

As for there not being a picture on our web site, there is a picture of Fritz on the Hunting Picture page, http://www.thunderheadgsps.com/images/H ... hunt36.jpg. When I capture just the right picture, we will include a picture of Fritz on our web site for the Sires page. Fritz has some great qualities, which is why he sired the litter with Carmen.

For people who have implied that his pup was from a Doberman cross is nonsense. People who have seen our dogs, and know the kind of dogs that we produce continue to give great compliments on our dogs. Looking at the performance record from the dogs out of our litters speaks volumes. We have consistently produced dogs that can perform in the field, water, and have great temperaments making them wonderful family dogs.

I hope that people, who get to meet this pup and his new owner, do not discourage this first time pointing dog owner who is very motivated and excited about his new pup. From the breeding the pup was out of, will no doubt have al the tools to be as great of as dog as his sire Fritz or dam Carmen.

I have two more weeks to hunt KS before heading for home. I will probably not have much access to the internet. Anyone who wants to talk more about it can feel free to give me a call.

Have a great rest of the season.

Bossman27 · Post by **Bossman27** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:30 am

I for one think you scored an awesome dog mofro14, quite an original dog with a great background that is going to perform up to expectations. I had never seen a tri-color up until this point, however, I had read about them quite a bit. I personally care only about performance and temperament, i'd buy a purple shorthair if he was a stud in the field. In a nutshell I think suggesting that producing tri-color's through responsible breeding of great dogs shouldn't be done simply because of the paint-job is ridiculous. Traditionalists may not like it, but a well respected kennel like Thunderhead may find out there is a market for them with people who are looking for a high performing dog and are intrigued about having a real original looking shorthair.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:19 am

Bossman, you just stated the recipe for doing whatever one wants and not having to accept blame. Given enough ot that attitude and there will be no shorthair in the future and come to think about it there will be lots of people who think they are owed a living by the people who are working.

Ezzy

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:38 am

mofro14, Welcome to the forum and congrats on your first GSP. He is unique that is for sure. I sure hope others negativity won't dissuade you from participating on the forum or take anything away from the enjoyment of your first pointing dog. I think you sure did a whole lot better than most people do in getting there first bird dog. No doubt you did some home work and found a well bred dog from a kennel that is willing to stand behind the pups they breed.

Bossman27 · Post by **Bossman27** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:52 am

Bossman, you just stated the recipe for doing whatever one wants and not having to accept blame. Given enough ot that attitude and there will be no shorthair in the future and come to think about it there will be lots of people who think they are owed a living by the people who are working.

Ezzy

I think its a simple disagreement, I by no means am advocating irresponsible breeding. I just don't beleive this puppy was a product of irresponsible breeding.

birddog101 · Post by **birddog101** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:08 am

Bossman27 wrote:
Bossman, you just stated the recipe for doing whatever one wants and not having to accept blame. Given enough ot that attitude and there will be no shorthair in the future and come to think about it there will be lots of people who think they are owed a living by the people who are working.

Ezzy
I think its a simple disagreement, I by no means am advocating irresponsible breeding. I just don't beleive this puppy was a product of irresponsible breeding.

Then what would you consider irresponsible breeding? Breeding KNOWN disqualifying faults in the breed standard sounds pretty irresponsible to me....If this was a opps thing that showed up it might be a different story but the sire being a Tri-color isn't an opps type thing. ...A responsible breeder trying to better the breed would not knowingly breed a dog with a DQ and If an opps Tri-color showed up in a litter they would sell that pup pup like that on a spay neuter contract or without papers and make sure to never make that cross again.....

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:28 am

After a little thought I decided to come back and edit it out. I probably got a little carried away. Some things are better left unsaid. I just get a little irked at people running down everyone elses dogs just because it is not something they themselves would prefer. I belong to a couple different dog forums and they all seem to have one thing in common. Everybody's dogs are the best in the world and everybody loves to run down anything that is not the same as theirs. That sort of thing just gets old.

birddog101 · Post by **birddog101** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:32 am

Ditch__Parrot wrote:
birddog101 wrote: Breeding KNOWN disqualifying faults in the breed standard sounds pretty irresponsible to me....If this was a opps thing that showed up it might be a different story but the sire being a Tri-color isn't an opps type thing. ...A responsible breeder trying to better the breed would not knowingly breed a dog with a DQ and If an opps Tri-color showed up in a litter they would sell that pup pup like that on a spay neuter contract or without papers and make sure to never make that cross again.....
Yep should have thrown all those black pups in a bucket of ice-water. :roll:

If you don't like it don't buy one. No need to be an A $ $ about it.

Never did I say throw them in a bucket....

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:35 am

D_P that's exactly what the Germans did with all the White & LVR pups at one time.Threw them in a bucket of water & would still do it when it comes to something they don't want showing up.

The Germans are much more HARD or SHARP as they like to say then us Americans & like their dogs the same way!!

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:55 am

VZ Just to make it clear. I was being sarcastic. That's why I put the rolly eyes on the end.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:17 am

Thanks for the picture...

Reech · Post by **Reech** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:38 am

Wow!

Me

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:16 pm

I read of the tricolors but this is only the second I have actually seen a picture of cute lil bugger hope you enjoy him ..

Reech · Post by **Reech** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:16 pm

gpblitz wrote:Just got e-mail from a German breeder and judge. I sent her a picture of the pup. Her response :

Hallo- Gelber Brand is o-k- Greeiting madonna

Greetings, Madonna, You are a German breeder and judge . Do you see
> DK or GSP of this color? Is it OK with German Gelber Brand? Thank. You
> GPBLITZ (Howie Hill)

Now I am Confused.... Is this a DK breeding or an AKC breeding?

Either way, Good luck with all future endeavors with your Pup.

Me

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:47 pm

Reech wrote:
gpblitz wrote:Just got e-mail from a German breeder and judge. I sent her a picture of the pup. Her response :

Hallo- Gelber Brand is o-k- Greeiting madonna

Greetings, Madonna, You are a German breeder and judge . Do you see
> DK or GSP of this color? Is it OK with German Gelber Brand? Thank. You
> GPBLITZ (Howie Hill)
Now I am Confused.... Is this a DK breeding or an AKC breeding?

Either way, Good luck with all future endeavors with your Pup.

Me

Pup is from excellent NAVHDA lines, and I would bet AKC and NAVHDA registered.

mofro14 · Post by **mofro14** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:01 pm

ACooper wrote:
Reech wrote:
gpblitz wrote:Just got e-mail from a German breeder and judge. I sent her a picture of the pup. Her response :

Hallo- Gelber Brand is o-k- Greeiting madonna

Greetings, Madonna, You are a German breeder and judge . Do you see
> DK or GSP of this color? Is it OK with German Gelber Brand? Thank. You
> GPBLITZ (Howie Hill)
Now I am Confused.... Is this a DK breeding or an AKC breeding?

Either way, Good luck with all future endeavors with your Pup.

Me

Pup is from excellent NAVHDA lines, and I would bet AKC and NAVHDA registered.

You would win that bet, he has been really fun so far. Thanks for all the positive

comments and encouragement, I'll post some pics when he gets older so everyone can see how he fills out and how his color progresses.

GrayDawg · Post by **GrayDawg** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:47 am

Like I said in my previous post, irregardless of his paint job, your pup has the pedigree to excel in the field, woods & marsh given the very successful NAVHDA dogs in his immediate pedigree. It's up to you now to simply expose him to different hunting scenarios & bring him along...... I think he'll be holding yor hand more than you will be holding his. I only wish that I could have been lucky enough to have such a pedigree with the first versatile dog I purchased!

As for the detractors on this thread with regards to your pup's coloring- all I can say is, this is what makes America great....... choice! If you don't like it, walk the other way, don't buy it & buy something else. The only thing this guy isn't going to be able to do with this pup is enter him in an AKC Bench show. This guy sounds like a hunter to me & his pup certainly appears to come from proven hunting stock. If you have a problem with the breeding, take it up with the breeder- not the owner of this Tri-color pup.

Knock yourself out with your HUNTING pup, if you have any questions, feel free to PM me- I've been around the block once or twice.

Rob

mofro14 wrote:You would win that bet, he has been really fun so far. Thanks for all the positive comments and encouragement, I'll post some pics when he gets older so everyone can see how he fills out and how his color progresses.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:42 am

GrayDawg wrote:!

As for the detractors on this thread with regards to your pup's coloring- all I can say is, this is what makes America great....... choice! If you don't like it, walk the other way, don't buy it & buy something else. The only thing this guy isn't going to be able to do with this pup is enter him in an AKC Bench show. This guy sounds like a hunter to me & his pup certainly appears to come from proven hunting stock. If you have a problem with the breeding, take it up with the breeder- not the owner of this Tri-color pup.

Knock yourself out with your HUNTING pup, if you have any questions, feel free to PM me- I've been around the block once or twice.

Rob

mofro14 wrote:You would win that bet, he has been really fun so far. Thanks for all the positive comments and encouragement, I'll post some pics when he gets older so everyone can see how he fills out and how his color progresses.

Good advice and I think that is what most of the posts have been about. Since it is disqualified in the standard for the breed doesn't even suggest it won't be a great hunting dog, But it shouldn't be used for breeding that only perpetuates the problem. Hope the pup turns out well.

Ezzy

High Voltage · Post by **High Voltage** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 am

Good luck with your pup. I was wondering what color the AKC and NAVHDA registered your pup as since Tri-colored is not a choice?
Thanks

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:14 am

Every one is correct just because the pup is a different color it does not mean he can't be a fine BIRD DOG but that goes for most faults like bad bites,bad feet,bad tail sets,& many more.Bad conformation in general will not be a problem when it comes to making a BIRD DOG but do we want to encourage it or breed it?

Just asking?

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:21 am

vzkennels wrote:Every one is correct just because the pup is a different color it does not mean he can't be a fine BIRD DOG but that goes for most faults like bad bites,bad feet,bad tail sets,& many more.Bad conformation in general will not be a problem when it comes to making a BIRD DOG but do we want to encourage it or breed it? Just asking?

There are plenty of breeders ( and I am not talking about the back yard type) that over look a bad bite for performance.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:50 am

Ac you are right,the first thing all of us need to understand is that ALL dogs have faults so no matter who breeds a litter has bred faults.I guess what is an unacceptable fault to one is not necssarily unacceptable to another.I just think that BREEDING a visible DQ fault should be frowned upon.Bad bites & some other faults can show up from breeding 2 dogs with correct bites & I know it has happened to me but would I then breed the dog with a DQ bite or encourage others to do the same? That's why it is so very hard to eliminate some of the disqualifying fauts we have.We are not God & aren't as smart as we think we are but should try to do the best we can.Some of the DQ faults take mos to show up but things like color,& certain others are obvious before the pup ever is sold or leaves.I had a pup here that had an underbite after his adult teeth came in.I did not register him because of that & gave him away but when the guy came to pick him up I opened his mouth to show him why I was giving him away low & behold his bite was perfect.He was 18 mos old & when it corrected I have no Idea because I quit checking it,my fault.I doubt that is the norm but it happens.This is all my opinion & every one else has their own,we are human & like our dogs not perfect.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:48 pm

I've had the same thing happen several times. A bad bite , oversize, or bad colors and they are not sold with full registrations. They have turned out to be good dogs but they don't belong in the breeding pool since they are disqualified in the breed standard.

That is not critizing the people who own them in any way.

Ezzy

thunderhead · Post by **thunderhead** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:20 pm

Tri color is a "color" the same as black is a color. If you have ever bred to a black female you have bred to a dog with a know disqualifying fault. Black is not acceptable for the AKC standards, but is acceptable to the German standards the same as tricolor is. To try and compare an acceptable color to a physical defect such as a bad bite is pretty much ridiculous. Do all of you have the same opinion on kennels who have black in their lines?

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:41 pm

thunderhead wrote:Tri color is a "color" the same as black is a color. If you have ever bred to a black female you have bred to a dog with a know disqualifying fault. Black is not acceptable for the AKC standards, but is acceptable to the German standards the same as tricolor is. To try and compare an acceptable color to a physical defect such as a bad bite is pretty much ridiculous. Do all of you have the same opinion on kennels who have black in their lines?

Sure do. In my opinion if you don't agree with a rule then you work at changing the rule instead of just ignoring it. When you ignore a rule then the question you just asked comes into play. Which rules do you live with and which do you ignore and since everyone has a different opinion you end up with out any rules. There are several I don't agree with but I am going to follow them as long as it is in the standard. That is the only way we can ever improve the breed no matter what the fault is or which breed you are talking about. And I think a color is a physical quality thats probably is just as important as the bite in todays world.

A fault is a fault and that eliminates all of the arguements that comeup when we try to decide which faults to ignore and which to be concerned with.

Ezzy