Hunting grouse and woodcock preference...

Fred · Post by **Fred** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:34 pm

Does hunting grouse and woodcock require (in your opinion) a big running dog that covers lots of ground quickly, or a dog that stays close and slowly covers every possible hiding spot? Maybe include some stories, but please give your opinion... Thanks...

Fred

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:59 am

Every grouse hunter has thier own preference. I have seen both, hunted both, and my opinion is...bigger running pointers that know how to handle birds. Key is knowing how to handle those wild birds...does not help to have a big runner busting birds all day long.

I want him out there finding birds...not under my feet. If I wanted that I would probably buy a springer or lab. I am a pointer guy so I'd like the setter/EP/GSP (and others) out there finding birds.

Woodcock...definetly a pointer. They hold better and are a lot of fun behind a pointer!

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:01 pm

I agree you want a dog that is going to handle the birds well.

I have both types (slow and fast) and have not found a difference. My setter is slow and is great on all birds. She gets the job done and covers all the hiding spots but is slow.

My GSP is alot quicker covers more ground. Still gets the hiding spots checked out but does it much faster.

I think it is all personal preferance on what you want. Get out and see a couple dogs work then choose from what you are seeing.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:19 pm

In my experience, there is no more difficult bird for a dog to handle than the ruffed grouse. I prefer the wider ranging dogs, the one's that get off the trail and hunt the swamp edges and likely covers. But way more important than range, is nose and manners. If the dog does not have a big time nose, it won't smell the birds early enough. And even if it has a big time nose, but just has to put it down on the ground and track, or just has to get in a little further, that bird is going to go. None tougher from that standpoint, than the RG.

To most, logic seems to say that a close working dog would be best in the grouse woods. Most close working dogs, though, do not have the tools to handle the grouse. And it is a benefit, particularly in the down years in the cycle, to have a dog that hunts away from the road. I can get the road birds by myself.

Trapper · Post by **Trapper** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:35 pm

Am I allowed to say medium?

I like the dog to cover some ground but I also like to watch a dog work. 400 yards is pushing it for me.

Fred · Post by **Fred** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:39 pm

Thanks for your opinions. It helped me decide between a English Pointer and Wirehaired Pointing Griffon. I want the best Grouse dog I can get and it sounds like from your opinions a Pointer would be better. I will be training him entirely on wild birds so hopefully he can develop "manners", like you said, and not rush the bird into a flush before I get there. I figure if I can get him on tons of wild grouse from a young pup, he'll learn well and pretty much be able to handle any wild bird. I seen a Pointer work on Dez Young's Wingshooter's journal and from what I could see he was very productive in finding birds a pretty good distance away and holding the bird on point.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:40 pm

Bird will make an exellent bird dogs without any help from the trainer. It is the added refinments (broke to wing and shot) that a trainer needs to step in.

If all you are looking for is a hunting buddy to hold point for you until you get there then the birds will do it.

I dont know if you are looking for a puppy now but there are some available right now in the Dogs for sale section. Good luck on finding a puppy.

Fred · Post by **Fred** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:05 pm

Ryan wrote:Bird will make an exellent bird dogs without any help from the trainer. It is the added refinments (broke to wing and shot) that a trainer needs to step in.

If all you are looking for is a hunting buddy to hold point for you until you get there then the birds will do it.

I dont know if you are looking for a puppy now but there are some available right now in the Dogs for sale section. Good luck on finding a puppy.

I will be doing the formal training as well when it becomes time. I have a barrel and check cord to teach him "whoa", starter pistol to introduce gunfire, and frozen wings/scent and dummie to practice retrieving. I plan on buying a live quail or two tie the wings and let him maul and chase when he's young to build drive. Anything else you can recommend?Maybe a bird launcher?

I wish I could buy one of PointerMan's pups right now, they look incredible in that video. But now is just not a good time, I need 3-4 months. I think I found a breeder thats in my area. His Pointers are constantly hunted on Grouse and Woodcock, and he's trialing them as well. I think the pups will have it in their blood, as well as a good nose.

What are some good things to look at in a Pointer's pedigree? As of now all I know of is the Elhew bloodline and CH before or after the name. What else should I look for?

Thanks...
Fred

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:32 pm

If you are training on wild birds then forget the launcher. All you will need is that starter pistol of yours. I wouldnt even worry about the Checkcord just let the dog run, creep birds, and bump birds he will catch on and start giving them the room they need. Like I said the birds will do all the teaching for you. May take a bit longer but you get a real "bird smart" dog.

As for reccomendations. Look at a breeder that does the same type of hunting as you. Look at hunt test levels, NAVHDA scores (I am doubting you will find a NAVHDA EP but maybe), even FT titles. I recomend staying away from a feild trial dog. They tend to be a little more high strung and farther ranging than you foot hunter bred dog. Not saying all that way but most are. They are raised to be kennel dogs. I would also look for a few show championships as well. Form follows function. A conformationaly correct dog will run longer.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:23 pm

The way you put the question, you kinda asked us to choose for you between the biggest and closest ranging of the pointing dogs. You can find EP's that will work well in the woods for a foot hunter that has not trained alot of dogs. You will need to look some to find one.

I know it was not your original question, but if you have not had a grouse dog before, i would vote for a britt, setter, or gsp. just thinking, like Ryan, that if you get an EP with a lot of run, and you aren't experienced in training it, you might regret it.

i had some woods pointers and never ever regretted it, well, there was that one time i had to wait by the car for the dog for a couple of hours, but that was not too bad.

really, i love those pointers, but would pick an in-between dog, in-between the two choices you posited, for a first dog. have seen great grouse dogs in all three of those breeds.

Fred · Post by **Fred** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:58 am

Wagonmaster wrote:The way you put the question, you kinda asked us to choose for you between the biggest and closest ranging of the pointing dogs. You can find EP's that will work well in the woods for a foot hunter that has not trained alot of dogs. You will need to look some to find one.

I know it was not your original question, but if you have not had a grouse dog before, i would vote for a britt, setter, or gsp. just thinking, like Ryan, that if you get an EP with a lot of run, and you aren't experienced in training it, you might regret it.

i had some woods pointers and never ever regretted it, well, there was that one time i had to wait by the car for the dog for a couple of hours, but that was not too bad.

really, i love those pointers, but would pick an in-between dog, in-between the two choices you posited, for a first dog. have seen great grouse dogs in all three of those breeds.

I'm reading the book "Wing and Shot", which is a good read so far . I'm hoping I can use some of their techniques for setting the range at which you want your dog to hunt. They say to use a long 50' CC and when he gets past the desired range call him in with "come" then get him to the desired range and then release him with "all right". This obviously has to be timed right in the training process as he has to know what the commands mean and be mostly broke.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:20 pm

Wing and Shot is an exellent book. I also recomend Best Way to Train Your Gun Dog by bill tarrent. this is a very good book as well.

gusto · Post by **gusto** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:06 pm

I hunt all the game birds with trial bred GWPs. One thing that i would think about when considering a versatile (WPG) is there love of chasing anything with fur. I would go with a specialist like a pointer, there easier to break from fur IMO. If it were me id be looking at getting a pup with heavy coverdog lines. I also agree that the grouse is the hardest bird to hunt.

Northern_Hunting_Mom · Post by **Northern_Hunting_Mom** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:03 am

I have a GSP and a WPG and both find birds. Both go off the trail but the GSP is quicker about going over cover. I find it more of a stroll when hunting with my WPG compared to my GSP. My GSP is more from NAVHDA and DK lines.

There usually is more point in a EP compared to a WPG or other versatile and that may make training on wild birds easier with an EP.

All bird dog breeds will get the job done. I prefer the versatiles for myself.

BTW, there are NAVHDA EPs, one is even competing in the Invitational and expected to pass. I would suggest going for Elhew lines if you're a foot hunter.

LuLu_01 · Post by **LuLu_01** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:07 am

I'm not sure what type of cover you plan on hunting for Grouse. I can tell you here in MI, I think people prefer the setters or a brit. I think in heavily wooded areas, the closer working dogs don't scare the birds up before you can get to them.

Personal thoughts only...Grouse hunting is challenging and fun. I plan on taking my shorthair out this year..I think she will do a great job because she will learn fast enough how tricky the grouse are.

I agree all the bird dogs learn fast how to adjust their speed and style to the situation. Some are just better suited for the job.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:43 am

Just completed four hunting days in northern WI and was great! Grouse numbers are certainly up. Quick observation. Had 7 guys & 7 dogs. Would choose a pointing dog over a flusher. Especially in thick cover. If your pointer can hold these wild birds, you have a better chance of getting a gun up and bagging the bird! Also best to hunt with a buddy. One guy on the trail and one in the woods (or two in the woods and one on the trail).

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:28 am

That is the real deal. Congratulations on a great hunt.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:20 pm

Might be too late to get in on this one. I am from Maine. The dogs range is not so much a factor but what it does while it is out of site. I have a GSp that runs huge she is gracefull and does not crash the brush. A clumsy or careless dog will have a lot of busted bumped birds not even realize they did it. The when she does find birds, The problem is it can take 4 or 5 minutes to find her when she does go on point. Many times she has come on the birds so fast that they jump right straight up into the tree above them. I don't know how many times I find her looking straight up to see those two little beady eyes looking for the only place to fly I can't shoot. Other times their is no bird because they walked or flew off. This is the problem of training to full steadiness. We find a lot of birds but also I put on a lot of miles finding her with no bird to be found.

Yet I have a French Britt. He is a 75 yard to the right and to the left front and back. I like this a little better just because you can get to the bird quicker with less effort. He does track them then holds back and usually the bird is there, when I get there. I have to cover more ground my self.

Many times I hunt the two together. The holes are filled.

Ironically, I find about the same number of birds either way.

I did have one French Britt that was the best of both worlds. He from a young age, would track, and circle these birds slow enough to pin them between him and me. He would do this even when I was out the area. He would hold until I got there, I would relocate him and he would track them then pin them. probally 60% of the time he would find that bird and probally 40 to 50% we would bring that bird home. He would cover about 100 to 150 yards each side and also within 30 yards of me. Always crossing in front. Always concerned I was with him. We made a pretty good team.

I think out of the box the more methodical dogs with a lot of hunt in them pick up on grouse hunting a little quicker. Not saying I want any boot lickers. I can find the birds that are within 30 yards or so.

Emptypair · Post by **Emptypair** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:20 am

Certain jobs require certain skills. Ruffed grouse need the special touch and, IMO, close working dogs. The best habitat I've seen is thick enough that you can't see further than 75 yards. Bootlickers or not, close working dogs seem to do very well on the king of gamebirds. Our family has always run close working flushing dogs thru the right cover with good success. My 4 MO Britt is the first pointing dog I've had, so I'm anxious to see how things turn out. To each their own...that's what makes hunting so much fun!