Young dog on grouse

[setternewbie]

I'm new to the dog game, but a lifelong bird hunter (I know I know). I finally made the leap and got a screamer of a little setter last spring. I spent the summer training, and finally got to hunt a little in the last month on pen raised birds with excellent results. All of the birds we worked over the summer with launchers and planted birds later in the summer seem to have paid off. The dog handles his business well in the field, runs under control in a good pattern, and responds to commands...not the least of which is WHOA. He has had probably 100 bird contacts at this point (mostly quail) And has had in the dozens of birds killed over him in all sorts of cover, mainly grouse-esq cover like we will be hunting wild birds in. He is steady to wing at this point, and has everything going for him that a 7 month old dog should.

All that said....here we are one month from the start of Grouse season in Virginia and I am getting the itch like never before. As I consider hunting wild birds with a young dog a few questions come to mind. First of all let me say this-Virginia is not the UP in Michigan. There are not endless birds, and afoot and dogless, a good day for me was seeing more than one bird. I do have several spots in several counties that I consistently find birds in that receive virtually NO hunting pressure. The way I see it I have two choices:

A. I sit on the internet and whine about how bad the bird hunting is and how there are no birds here while my dog and I get fat and lazy and never see anything but pen raised birds.

B. I go out, bust some brush, work the dog, get shredded by briars, maybe loose the 10lbs I should and maybe see a few more birds than I did on my own. I love grouse hunting more than anything else in the world...seriously

All THAT said....How would some of you seasoned vets deal with wild flushes and a young dog. I know one of the challenges I'll face this season is that the dog is not properly conditioned to stand off his birds. I have done what I could with launchers and watching the dog in the scent cone, but I know that he has no idea of how close is too close with a wild grouse. He does work close to me, he does have a good nose, but I figure it might take half the season to get enough contacts that he's getting the picture. Maybe I'm wrong and not giving him enough credit, but this is grouse we're talking about. In the mean time, should I not be shooting ANY of those birds that flush wild? Is a point good enough if the bird flushes wild sometime before I flush it? what about birds he hasn't scented that flush. If he was a dog that had more experience, I'd probably opt to take the shootable birds as it's the only shooting I'm likely to get, but I'm curious to see how some of you would deal with that. Thanks in advance for your help

[ezzy333]

Welcome. A good first post with an easy answer I think but it will be up to you. Are you willing to give up a few birds so that you can have a great dog to shoot over for 10 or twelve years? You decide!

Ezzy

[Mountaineer]

Don't shoot a mishandled bird or a wild flush if the pup is around......for the dog' future.

Don't flush or shoot a ruffed grouse in late season......for the grouse's future.

Travel to provide ruffed grouse for the pup to learn on.
Remaining in Va. and hunting isolated and dwindling pockets of birds will be a tough go....it is simply the way of Life in much of the Apps. today.
Look to woodcock Spring and Fall.

[aulrich]

I am slightly behind where you are, my first pup still needs to be shot over. I am going to hold out for wild as long as I can, but I have some pigeons that I don't want to winter so they will have to go at some point. And also along with exposure to birds exposure to differnet types of terrain is important this fist season. I hit the big woods for ruffs next weekend, when we were out for vacation this summer thick brush intimidated him a bit, but latly he is starting to eat up the thick stuff, hopfully he stays cloes enough, he runs pretty far in the stubble fields around home.

There was a good hatch in the north (Northern Sask.) but there were so few birds due to hard winters previous years there are still not alot of birds, but I figure since, I have to only shoot pointed birds and getting a shot at a flying bird in that bush is tough enough, i'll be leaving plenty behind.

Your plan B sounds like a plan A to me.

[bonasa]

Plan B.

If I were you I would not shoot any birds that are close enough to your home to train on during the week. I keep training spots and hunting spots. Don't shoot wild flushes that the dog hasn't pointed and/or held, i.e. birds that you walk up. As far as birds that the dog points and holds, if you can find him/her on point but they squirt out "wild" as you approach. I'd take the shot if you can make it into the dog's field of view for the flush; a perfect kick around and mumble reassuring words seldom occurs in low density grouse populations.

[setternewbie]

thanks for all the replies. Yeah, that's about what I was thinking on all of it. I do plan on traveling a little bit and I have hunted some spots in the past that still hold decent birds by all reports. I guess we'll have to see what the season holds. Just seems good to be looking at some bird hunting in the near future.

[mik]

I was the same boat as you...Otto was just on 6 months old his first hunting season...he had pigeons and chukars for training and had been shot over before the season started.....if he did not point the grouse or woodcock I did not shoot...we got first first grouse on his first trip out.....birds around here are jumpy cause they are pressured so it wasn't a long point but he did the job....we got lucky and ran into quite a few woodcock on one day that first season and that hammered home the "point"....No point, no shot, no bird, no reward....When not hunting grouse or woodcock or finding many i set up planted pheasants several times as that's all I had available...If he broke point and chased no shot on flushed bird and I reset him from the place he broke point..... Birds, birds,....I think the dogs figure out what to do with more exposure no matter the species of bird....my two cents...

[JIM K]

my puppy whiskers will not be shot over unless he points the wild bird.
no pheasant hunting for him,it ruins their point as puppy.
i shoot over him when he points pigeons in my launchers.

[quackerjack]

no pheasant hunting for him,it ruins their point as puppy.

What do you mean, pheasant hunting ruins their point as a puppy?

[Wyobio]

no pheasant hunting for him,it ruins their point as puppy.

What do you mean, pheasant hunting ruins their point as a puppy?

Some people think that the dog will be ruined by running pheasants that will "taunt" than into breaking and flushing. I am no expert, but my dogs have learned a ton from pheasants, there are usually enough hens around that will hold, especially in the early season. I say get dog on as many birds as possible, worry about finishing when the dog is older.

[JIM K]

no pheasant hunting for him,it ruins their point as puppy.

What do you mean, pheasant hunting ruins their point as a puppy?

yes, books i read say,NEVER PUT A PUPPY THAT POINTS ON PEN RAISED PHEASANTS.it will teach puppy to CHASE not point.
so whiskers my SMALL MUNSTERLANDER will not see pheasant or quail that is pen raised and not AIR WASHED.
this is my first pointing puppy had labs all my life.

books are HOW TO HELP GUN DOGS TRAIN THEMSELVES by joan bailey
TRAINING GROUSE AND WOODCOCK DOGS by logan bennett.
being 90% of my hunting in pa is GROUSE.

whiskers will see no pheasants for at least 3 years.

[JIM K]

no pheasant hunting for him,it ruins their point as puppy.

What do you mean, pheasant hunting ruins their point as a puppy?

Some people think that the dog will be ruined by running pheasants that will "taunt" than into breaking and flushing. I am no expert, but my dogs have learned a ton from pheasants, there are usually enough hens around that will hold, especially in the early season. I say get dog on as many birds as possible, worry about finishing when the dog is older.

my friend has 3 SM. his last one he trained on pheasants.
DOG DOES NOT POINT AT ALL,IT FLUSHES.

[Mountaineer]

Some people think that the dog will be ruined by running pheasants that will "taunt" than into breaking and flushing. I am no expert, but my dogs have learned a ton from pheasants, there are usually enough hens around that will hold, especially in the early season. I say get dog on as many birds as possible, worry about finishing when the dog is older.

Yes...just don't shoot mishandled birds or offer so many training birds that 1+1 is easy/expected for pup.

Pheasants can scamper but there is nothing inherent in a pheasant that will eliminate a pointing dog...pointing :roll:......a ruffed grouse or whatever.
If situations develop that the owner would wish different then steps can be taken to help pup and reenforce preferred behavior...it's called training.
Pheasants won't ruin a pointing dog....ignorant owners tho can ruin or stunt the progression of any pup.
Blame seldom falls where most deserved.

[Wyobio]

[/quote]
my friend has 3 SM. his last one he trained on pheasants.
DOG DOES NOT POINT AT ALL,IT FLUSHES.[/quote]

So did he let the dog flush the bird while training without correction? My wife has an SM and it has never seen a pen raised pheasant. All of her training has been done with pigeons under controlled situations, and is limited to just enough to keep her eager. She pointed wild pheasants at 8 months in ND, and while she is not always steady,she will almost always hold the point until we are in shooting range. We try to not shoot if any of our dogs bump the bird but I would be a liar if I said we always hold off!!!

This season on sage grouse my wife has been working with the flank collar and has her steady to the shot, so I do not think pheasant are going to "ruin the dog."

[JIM K]

reason i said RUIN young dog is because experts,not that most of you are not said it in books.here are some words from JOAN BAILEYS BOOK.
'AVOID PLANTED BIRDS LIKE PLAGUE
pen raised pheasant smells different than wild bird
pen raised birds smell like dead bird,so pup will not point it
adult dog will point pheasants but point is not intense
young dogs will walk right in,when this happens they are learning not to point
after pup is over 2 yrs old THEN YOU can use pen raised birds,they will know difference[wild]
YOU WILL NOT MESS UP POINTING IF YOU WAIT

dont mess up your dogs point the first 12 months, use only wild birds.
i am lucky, i can get whiskers on about 5 woodcock per outing and i dont kill the birds so i have wild birds for him to get use too.

here is what LOGAN BENETT SAID ON PHEASANTS.

ringneck is runner,and helps little in steadying of young pup on pointing.

[JIM K]

my friend has 3 SM. his last one he trained on pheasants.
DOG DOES NOT POINT AT ALL,IT FLUSHES.[/quote]

So did he let the dog flush the bird while training without correction? My wife has an SM and it has never seen a pen raised pheasant. All of her training has been done with pigeons under controlled situations, and is limited to just enough to keep her eager. She pointed wild pheasants at 8 months in ND, and while she is not always steady,she will almost always hold the point until we are in shooting range. We try to not shoot if any of our dogs bump the bird but I would be a liar if I said we always hold off!!!

This season on sage grouse my wife has been working with the flank collar and has her steady to the shot, so I do not think pheasant are going to "ruin the dog."[/quote]


you said WILD PHEASANTS,i am talking about pen raised.i assume wil;d ones would be fine .