Weight restrictions

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Cerberati
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Weight restrictions

Post by Cerberati » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:25 am

Have any of you long-term gundog handlers ever tried using larger dogs for the same work? any feedback, experience?

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by terrym » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:40 am

My Britt can move swiftly through dense grouse and woodcock cover. I can see an advantage on a retriever used on big water and harsh conditions but other than that they just take more room. I guess if you hunt the open cover out west then a longer legged dog might have some advantage but I can't see it in the Timbered East?
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by reba » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:55 pm

It has been my experence that a 35 pound dog can do the same thing as a 65 pound dog, taking up less space and eating less food.

And many times the 35 pounder is even better.

Really big dogs are not made for big running.

My smallest is 32 pounds and my biggest was 235 pounds.

My two birds dogs are 32 and 65 pounds.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by 3Britts » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:50 am

I guess my first question is, what do you think of as a larger breed and a smaller breed?

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Benny » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:22 am

reba wrote: My smallest is 32 pounds and my biggest was 235 pounds.
.
Wow your biggest dog weighs as much as I do!
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:14 am

Cerberati,
The average weekend hunter/trialer has little use for a long legged Grouse dog, most stop hunting when the weather becomes bad and the snow gets deep. The 2nd part of Grouse season after Christmas in January here in Potter/Tioga, weeds out all the faster smaller, short legged Grouse dogs, the snow gets deep, and the dogs you see in the Grouse woods are the long legged Ryman Setters, the real German Shorthairs, or Weimars, the dual Gordon Setters and the massive Chessies, all owned by die hard Grouse hunters. Grouse hunting in the deep snow is completely different and the dogs must be big and strong, when the powdered snow is above 12" deep. There is a reason for a long legged Grouse dog, in the snow its not how fast a dog can run, its how powerful and smooth a dog can move, and what kind of nose the dog has for scenting and handeling Grouse under the snow. There are different kinds of Grouse dogs and we do have most of them here at Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers. In fact we just might be investing in a long legged Red & White Setter in the near future, to expand our deep winter Grouse dog stock.
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The long legged dog is a specialist at his trade and used properly they are a masters at setting wild birds on snow covered mountains or the heather in Scotland.
The longer legged dual type Setters are poweful and capable of working Grouse in the deep snow & thick heather, where a short legged dog has big problems. Different dogs bred for different purposes.
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by JIM K » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:51 am

dave, that is beautiful dog.i can see why you are interested.

here i go,no expert just 46 yrs hunting grouse only in pa.
bigger dogs in warm fall tire out real quick.my labs will tire out in 2 hrs easy and they are in shape.
heavy coats are hard on dog.this is why some clip back their dogs hair in fall.
this is another reason i am getting a SM which will be at 45pds or so vrs my labs at 70/80 pds.
extra weight is hard on dog in our warmer fall hunting here.

now in winter with 12 inchs of snow, TOBY my lab is awesome. will hunt for 6 hrs easy,plows thru snow like setter in fall running.
other dogs with low to ground have it hard BUT i see very few hunters in winter hunting grouse in my area.
most hunt deer then.

this is why i said to get a LONG LEGGED SMALL LAB.SHORT STOCKY LABS ARE NOT VERY GOOD.
FEMALES WITH LONG LEGS ARE BETTER AS THEY RUN 55/60 PDS VRS A MALE UP TO 80 PDS.

i like dog under 55 pds in weight.but a small dog like 35 pds or so has it hard in tall grass on pheasants.this is why i like lew setters/small munsterlander for grouse/pheasants.

just about right size ..... :P

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by JIM K » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:54 am

reba wrote:It has been my experence that a 35 pound dog can do the same thing as a 65 pound dog, taking up less space and eating less food.

And many times the 35 pounder is even better.

Really big dogs are not made for big running.

My smallest is 32 pounds and my biggest was 235 pounds.

My two birds dogs are 32 and 65 pounds.
i agree with most BUT that 35 pd dog needs long legs.fields/winter would be hard if not.i had mix beagle 1 time called penny.
she would out hunt the best pheasants dogs in my area.
she had beagle tracking and long legs to cover grass fields to get thru.
she would GO IN BRIARS just like full bred beagle but had long legs.
man what a dog she was.
many hunters got mad when they saw me at SgL252 hunting.they knew penny would get pheasants that ran into hedgerows where very few of bird dogs could go.
those pheasants went in pot quick.
what a dog she was.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Elkhunter » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:51 pm

I like em in the 50-60lb range. I have a 52lb EP and a 39lb GSP. Both get it done just fine in the chukar hills.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by BigShooter » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:37 pm

Besides the issues of longer legs, snow & heat resistence I believe the length of a dog's life is somewhat proportional to their size. Irish wolf hounds live an average of about seven years, medium sized dogs about thirteen and several of the lap dog breeds seem to live 14-15 years. Having said that many breeds have health issues that affect their length of life so there are no absolutes. Many of the giant breeds seem to burn out early.

Even with humans, of the ones over ninety years old, none ever seem to be the individuals who were originally 6 1/2 to 7 1/2 feet tall, weighing 250-450 pounds. It always seems to be the little old ladies, none of whom were very big before they started to shrink with old age.
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Ruffshooter » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:27 am

I guess the rabbit guys hunting with beagles in Maine winters into March are using the wrong dogs. (Although with the little amount of snow and the warm days this year anything would work) Long legged dogs do have an easier time in powdered snow at least up to 16" or so but after that it does not matter much. In fact if you have a crust on the snow or hard snow it is better to have the lighter smaller dog when hunting grouse. They do not break through. Not fully disagreeing just pointing out the other side so to speak.

Also a 35 pound dog may be able to do everything that a 65 pound animal can but that 35 pounder retrieving geese all day is going to be one tired dog at the end of a day. I use mine that way but it does not happen on a daily basis.
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Ralph Ford » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:49 am

Give me a well conditioned, muscular 55-60# pointer. Nothing screams 'Bird Dog' more than that. They are not for everybody though, they can just about pull your arm out of socket.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:08 am

I have always found the smaller lighter dogs will be going long after the big heavy built dogs are worn out. Big and strong is great for short periods of time but smaller will outlast them.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Ralph Ford » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:39 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I have always found the smaller lighter dogs will be going long after the big heavy built dogs are worn out. Big and strong is great for short periods of time but smaller will outlast them.

Ezzy
Ezzy, I have heard people say that for years so there might be some truth to it somewhere. I don't see it. The dogs I always see run the hardest and longest are the dogs in shape. Conditioning trumps any size preference.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by 3Britts » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:18 pm

I've got to go with the mid-sized, 30 to 40 lbs, dogs as well. Mine with gooooooooo all day where my buddies larger dogs will not.
As for people, when is the last time you saw a 6 foot plus, 200 lbs person win a marathon?

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Benny » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:04 pm

3Britts wrote:I've got to go with the mid-sized, 30 to 40 lbs, dogs as well. Mine with gooooooooo all day where my buddies larger dogs will not.
As for people, when is the last time you saw a 6 foot plus, 200 lbs person win a marathon?
They don't. It's conditioning. Someone who is 6'3 and conditioning to win a marathon will weigh in and around 185 lbs. That's what I used to weigh when I ran with my uncle (8 years and 48 pounds ago). Did I win? No...but that's because there were more dedicated people in the race with better conditioning and self discipline.

Now I like lifting instead of running, so I've changed my directive but have learned to condition myself to meet that need. Dog's are the same, and I'm pretty sure regardless of the physical limitations I could probably condition a toy poodle to "run big." Or at least until a coyote picks it off.
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:57 am

Conditioning is a lot of it of course but large framed people have the same disadvantage as large framed dogs or large framed birds and that is the extra energy it takes to propel that extra size and weight compared to the smaller framed and lighter individuals. Small thin people will win distance while heavier stronger individuals will win sprints, We see it in people, in our racing pigeons, and our dogs.

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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Ralph Ford » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:20 am

I reject dogs that have a marathon runner's gait. I want a sprinter's gait.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Benny » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:49 am

ezzy333 wrote:Conditioning is a lot of it of course but large framed people have the same disadvantage as large framed dogs or large framed birds and that is the extra energy it takes to propel that extra size and weight compared to the smaller framed and lighter individuals. Small thin people will win distance while heavier stronger individuals will win sprints, We see it in people, in our racing pigeons, and our dogs.

Ezzy
Not quite. As you said the heavier stronger individual will win the sprints. I guaruntee they were not born heavy and strong, it takes years of physical conditioning and dedication to acheive the physique that a true olympic sprinter has...and sometimes a few cycles of steroids too. What they've done is altered running into a shorter more explosive muscle resistance. That is replicated in the gym with 75% of their max in squats, lunges, etc in very low repetitions. Therefor their body developes the larger muscle mass associated with short muscle. For the most part, you have two types of muscle, short muscles and long muscles. They both have significant applications and both need to be strong as an athlete, just certain type of athletes favor certain muscle groups. Long distance runners develop long muscle that is associated with more repetition and reduced fatigue. It's the opposite of gainers that oppose muscle memory; distance runners encourage that muscle memory and depend on it for increasing longer distances.

What you might be refering to is the unique. Perhaps a person that is 7'0 or greater with obvious physiological issues stemming from birth that would inherently cause joint and degenerative issues by straining these muscles. In that case, we would be talking about apples and oranges like running your brittany next to a great dane. Probably never going to reach the sort of conditioning necessary to match what has been bred for generations.

However, energy is a very relative term and science still knows only so much about how it is expended and utilized in the body, but I doubt there are any hard and fast facts about comparing energy expenditures to different size classes since metabolism is a coefficient of conditioning and health.
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:30 am

I have no desire to get into the conditioning procedures as that has nothing to do with the question at hand. All I am saying is Deon Sanders would make a better defensive back than Refrigerator Perry ever would even when conditioned the same. Peyton Manning just might be a better QB than Ricky Williams or Devin Hester or Brian Urlacher. And it has nothing to do with conditioning. There are some laws of physics that dictate what the body can do and not do and we know that it takes a great deal more energy to move a large body that a small one where that body is human, canine, or a pile of coal.

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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Benny » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:13 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I have no desire to get into the conditioning procedures as that has nothing to do with the question at hand. All I am saying is Deon Sanders would make a better defensive back than Refrigerator Perry ever would even when conditioned the same. Peyton Manning just might be a better QB than Ricky Williams or Devin Hester or Brian Urlacher. And it has nothing to do with conditioning. There are some laws of physics that dictate what the body can do and not do and we know that it takes a great deal more energy to move a large body that a small one where that body is human, canine, or a pile of coal.

Ezzy
Right, it's a response to the conversation that developed and was fleshed out by the topic. forum...

I think your player references refer more to talent. If Deon Sanders had played on the line he wouldn't be the guy you loved so much in the 90's, he would have weighed 280 lbs and had traps and triceps bigger than your thighs put together. All these players you highlighted are the way they are because they dedicated the majority of their adult life to playing that position and conditioning for it. Which is why Peyton is good at throwing a ball, and would literally be murdered if he had to stand at the offensive line.
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by 3Britts » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:03 pm

Tell you what, go with a sprinter and have your hunting done in less than an hour. A marathon runner will go all day, find more birds and not fart with it is done and in the back seat of the truck. :wink:

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:40 pm

I want a dog that will go balls to the wall for 2-3 hours. Swap em out and keep em running hard, I would rather not have a dog learn to pace itself. Always want em full bore!

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by BigShooter » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:53 pm

Elkhunter wrote:I want a dog that will go balls to the wall for 2-3 hours. Swap em out and keep em running hard, I would rather not have a dog learn to pace itself. Always want em full bore!
I know you're just talking about personal preference & I can appreciate what you like. Although at some point as they age most I've observed will become more efficient in their search & can certainly seem like they are pacing themselves, or at least appear to be reducing the expended energy young dogs waste so easily.
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Ralph Ford » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:31 am

Elkhunter wrote:I want a dog that will go balls to the wall for 2-3 hours. Swap em out and keep em running hard, I would rather not have a dog learn to pace itself. Always want em full bore!

Yep, that's why dog boxes have multiple doors.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by 3Britts » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:28 am

The big problem with "balls to the walls" dogs is the amount of birds they miss. I took a group out about a month ago and had no problem finding game, while the two "balls to the walls" dogs in a neighboring field couldn't find many at all. After they left, I hit the field with my dog and he found 6 that they missed. Go figure. :roll:

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by ultracarry » Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:57 am

Maybe that's because they weren't good dogs. Balls to the wall that quarters will work for flat landing. Doesn't matter how fast the dog runs if they don't use thier nose they are not worth the time.

If you take them hunting out west you want a balls to the wall dog. Unless you like to.see your dog at all times. Is prefer to have my dog go to the spots that should have birds and skip the parts that usually don't.

If you want to hunt flat fields you are talking a whole different world than what he posted about.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Ralph Ford » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:16 pm

Can you imagine watching a college basketball game where the same 5 played all game, let alone all day. Can you say borrrrrring?

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Ruffshooter » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:27 pm

Ultra:
I have only hunted the flat lands once In Kansas for Pheasants. When we were in Milo or the CRP the pheasants were not just specifically in the edges. We found them in the middle of the milo and crp. We also found some in ditch lines.My dogs did there work cutting the wind and moving forward at about 100 to 150 yards or so. I don't think it was much more, well except for Mercy.

Because they are used to birds being anywhere they covered a lot of ground from side to side and forward. We did pretty good.

I would think that randomly your dogs heading to the objectives in the balls to the wall manner are actually covering much of the ground/air passed by with their noses as well. So on occasion you must have your dogs pull up and head for a bird in the middles. (not knowing what kind of area you hunt) But a dog that runs a line will only find birds on the line or with the wind coming to them.

I like a good going dog, sharp quick etc. But one that is full tilt in grouse woods is asking for a dog that will have a lot of injury at least the type of woods I hunt. I know of two that have taken a dead fall limb in the chest an both bled out. This is in just the past three or four years in my small circle. The thing they both had in common was they were hard charging fast dogs.

I find that my dogs have more of a strong steady run but not full out when we hunt Ruffs, but when in trials in the open fields they run full out for most of the brace.
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by ultracarry » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:26 pm

Btw if the owners of those two dogs got "in their head" early in the hunt and controlled them to work slower (which is possible) the probably wouldnt have been running out of control In a confined area???

You want them to hint smart, smart in open land is hard fast and diligently.... If j want mine to work a specific area I will send her there. If I want her to slow down I can get in her head and slow her down. Just that simple. Make the dog work according to the terrain.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by TRoberts » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:34 pm

ultracarry wrote:Btw if the owners of those two dogs got "in their head" early in the hunt and controlled them to work slower (which is possible) the probably wouldnt have been running out of control In a confined area???

You want them to hint smart, smart in open land is hard fast and diligently.... If j want mine to work a specific area I will send her there. If I want her to slow down I can get in her head and slow her down. Just that simple. Make the dog work according to the terrain.

Well said....it really is about dog control isn't it? Doesn't matter if you have pointers or britts.....

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by cjhills » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:47 pm

If you have two dogs which are equal in everything except size. Breeding, training and conditioning put your money on the bigger one.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by ultracarry » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:08 pm

I go smaller/ lighter every time. Thin is good.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by cjhills » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:50 pm

Elkhunter wrote:I want a dog that will go balls to the wall for 2-3 hours. Swap em out and keep em running hard, I would rather not have a dog learn to pace itself. Always want em full bore!
It's along walk back to the truck with a pack of gassed dogs

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Elkhunter » Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:38 pm

Its a long day of hunting when you have a dog quartering slowly in front of you.... Coveys can be miles apart and a good dog uses the thermals that come up ridges to find chukars, all while running very hard. No need for a dog loping around. I am speaking mainly from hunting chukars, I dont hunt pheasants or preserves so I know what I like when it comes to hunting chukars. And I can promise you after following a hard charging dog for 3 hours you want to go back to the truck. I am significantly more gassed than they ever are! Then you get some snacks, drive to the next spot and rest a bit. Cut another dog out and chase em around again for 3 hours. I can promise you would be exhausted!

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by ultracarry » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:22 pm

Elkhunter wrote:Its a long day of hunting when you have a dog quartering slowly in front of you.... Coveys can be miles apart and a good dog uses the thermals that come up ridges to find chukars, all while running very hard. No need for a dog loping around. I am speaking mainly from hunting chukars, I dont hunt pheasants or preserves so I know what I like when it comes to hunting chukars. And I can promise you after following a hard charging dog for 3 hours you want to go back to the truck. I am significantly more gassed than they ever are! Then you get some snacks, drive to the next spot and rest a bit. Cut another dog out and chase em around again for 3 hours. I can promise you would be exhausted!

I still have to make it out there...

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Elkhunter » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:25 pm

ultracarry wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:Its a long day of hunting when you have a dog quartering slowly in front of you.... Coveys can be miles apart and a good dog uses the thermals that come up ridges to find chukars, all while running very hard. No need for a dog loping around. I am speaking mainly from hunting chukars, I dont hunt pheasants or preserves so I know what I like when it comes to hunting chukars. And I can promise you after following a hard charging dog for 3 hours you want to go back to the truck. I am significantly more gassed than they ever are! Then you get some snacks, drive to the next spot and rest a bit. Cut another dog out and chase em around again for 3 hours. I can promise you would be exhausted!

I still have to make it out there...

Head on out!

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Ruffshooter » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:30 am

What confined area? Who said they were out of control? These dogs were highly trained NAVHDA dogs and both were hunted alot for years. They were in their prime. They were hunting the real woods. Maine. You would have to see the areas to understand.
ultracarry wrote:Btw if the owners of those two dogs got "in their head" early in the hunt and controlled them to work slower (which is possible) the probably wouldnt have been running out of control In a confined area???
If you read my post this is just what I was eluding to. You want them to hint smart, smart in open land is hard fast and diligently.... If j want mine to work a specific area I will send her there. If I want her to slow down I can get in her head and slow her down. Just that simple. Make the dog work according to the terrain.
Elk Hunter wrote: "Its a long day of hunting when you have a dog quartering slowly in front of you.... "
You make it sound like quartering is only a short distance working pattern. Yes it can be, like flushers use or close working pointing dogs. But it can also be a long distance working manner too. Maybe my idea of quartering is less defined for pointing dogs. More like a windshield wiper. I do not hunt preserves. We only have two or three in the state and they are small. Good for some training and maybe a good way to introduce one to hunting etc. IMONot really disagreeing with anything said, just saying that birds can end up most anywhere in any terrain and most dogs adapt and cover ground accordingly. Maybe a Ruffed Grouse dog may not get out there a 1/2 mile but will stretch out in an open area. They do it all the time in the Ruff woods. There is some cover that is pretty easy going and in a heart beat it is heck central. The dog will follow its nose. I have seen people start hacking their dogs to a certain area because they thought there were not birds and the dog was "bleep" around. Only to find the dog had the bird. Dogs many times work the thermals which take them away from objectives and many times to the birds. I let the dog hunt but head to where I want the dog will come with you unless they are on something, hopefully a bird. Heck I have found Ruffs in a clover field when I was heading to a certain covert/cover.

Any way Thanks Elk and Ultra.
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.

Rick

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Ralph Ford
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Ralph Ford » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:23 am

If this thread proves anything, it's that bird dogs can be enjoyed in all shapes and sizes! :)

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Elkhunter
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Elkhunter » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:54 pm

Ruff I agree quartering can be done at some distance, I am referring to the speed at which the quartering is being done. I don't want a dog loping or plodding around to pace itself, that's all I was mentioning. But of course I am young and can sort of keep up with em, but its different strokes for different folks. Some like a slower more methodical dog because that is how they enjoy hunting and there is nothing wrong with that at all.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Petroplex Hunter » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:33 pm

Why not one of each? I've got a leggy EP that loves to run big and handles the heat very well, weighing in at about 50 lbs. I've also got a little boykin spaniel that you'd swear is attached to a rocket when she is in the field (I keep her clipped most of the year). They are very different dogs, but are a both a blast to hunt behind.

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jcbuttry8
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by jcbuttry8 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:51 pm

I always like to hear how a hard running dog can only find birds on a tree line that they are running. If you have that dog, let the kennel blindness go and replace it. I enjoyed watching several pointers and a setter run last weekend in an AF Derby event. Funny thing, them big running dogs were finding birds in the trees, in the woods, and even in the tall grass away from the trees. They all ran with there noses up and catching air. Never saw a one of them quarter.

Point is, everyone has there own taste in dogs and what that dog can do for them. I know several that want a dog to quarter the entire line of hunters whether it be short or long. That is great. It works for them. I used to be that guy, but now I really like what I see with the pointers. My game has changed up. Maybe just maybe if most weren't all that concerned with shooting every bird in the field, we might not be in such bad shape when it comes to populations of birds. I like to shoot with my camera now. We had three birds in the freezer this year, and everyone of them shot by my 12 year old. I think I have had more fun this year watching him and the dog then I have ever had shooting birds.

I will stick with the running dogs. The harder the better, but you have to remember that those big running dogs are no different than the short dogs. They still have to have some brains and the nose never hurts either.

Now, to get back to the discussion, I will take a great dog. One with brains and a nose and can get the job done no matter where I put it down. Big or small, just give me a good one. If it's too big or too small and tuckers quick, then I will just find a good one that is opposite. Come on we all know that two is better than one, and three or more leads to child support and alimony. :D :D

JM2C,

Joe

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Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:40 am

Gentlemen,
I leave you with this thought, Nash Buckingham and Henry Davis were big time FT men who loved FT dogs and knew more about dog size and preformance than most men will ever know. However most times when they Grouse and Quail hunted they did not us their
FT size fire eating dogs. This quote from The Best of Nash Buckingham on page 119 Amid Whirring Wings. " I would like to endore
Nash's comment about "loose field talk" concerning range of dogs. This mania for wide-moving dogs has been overdone since the first
American bird dog trail in 1874. If this had been restricted to field trials, gun dog strains would have been more suited to foot hunting. Nash states this with-out equivocation, and he cannot be accused of lack of sympothy for field trail dogs. When he and his friends shot afoot, they did not use the wide flashy trail dogs but, instead, shot over Tom Cotton or Lucy, Kate and Don.
RGD/Dave

Nash with his bigger dogs that he use to hunt afoot. Don the dog on the left went about 64 lbs and Kate on the right went about 58lbs,
the long legs on Kate made her one of the best Quail and Grouse hunting dogs who ever lived, Don was her equal if not better.
Tom Cotton was even a bigger Pointer who weighed about 66 lbs, a long legged stocky bird finding machine. Lucy was a long legged
Setter bred by a man in the Pa mountains, she weighed about 55 lbs. I have a picture of Tom Cotton & Nash but none of Lucy are available.
Image

Nash & Tom Cotton his big Pointer
Image
Last edited by Ryman Gun Dog on Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:22 am, edited 3 times in total.

dakotashooter2
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by dakotashooter2 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:58 am

Define small?..... when I initially decided that Springer Spaniel was my choice of dog part of the reasoning was size. I lived in town and wanted a 35-45# dog. Both my first Springer and the one pictured (females) hit 65# and as you can see were by no means overweight for their size. Both came from breeding stock within the 35-50# weight range. The bonus was, both handled snow and high CRP extremely well.
I'm pretty sure my newest pup will be more within the standard size so that will be a new experience for me.
My point is you can never quite be sure how big they will get.
Image
Image

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Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:12 am

Dakotashooter2,
Thought you might like to see this photo of Nash Buckingham with his favorite dog, although Nash was a big time FT man, his favorite dog was not a Pointer or a Setter. Nash's daughters comments under this photo tell the real story. Again that is no little
Springer Spaniel in his photo. Chubby was a serious sized Springer Spaniel, and according to my Grandfather one very serious gun dog.
Note the Harris Tweed Hunting Jacket and Pants, Nash Buckingham was a class act all the way down to his hunting tie.
Image
Last edited by Ryman Gun Dog on Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by ultracarry » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:30 am

FYI they did not have the tools like we do today to control the range of the dog or else those flashy dogs prob would have been what they used. No need for a dog with no range when you have an ecollar and can control such range. The argument would be easily solved if forays date was around the 1930's and we did not have the tools of today.

There is no need for a dog you can't use in every upland situation. To have 5 dogs would be impractical for most hunters. Control the range of your dog and get in thier head early in tight quarters and they won't run out of your control. In open areas let em roll and be a mountain goat.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:41 am

Ultra,
According to both Davis and Buckingham, bidability is one of a bird dogs most important hunting instincts. A dog who is an independent bird finder seldom instinctively works with the master, sure you can use the e-collar to fight against the dogs instincts,
but these men knew the difference in what the dogs were bred to accomplish, and owned both kinds of dogs. Nothing has changed these men knew their gun dog business inside and out.
RGD/Dave

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ultracarry
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by ultracarry » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:56 am

If you could not use an ecollar, can not afford one, or just refuse to use on then I would 100% agree with you.

But in a hunting scenario bird finding ability is 100% what you want. You can control the dogs range with the collar but if he finds birds and stands then why would the average hunter care? Slap a collar and garmin or tracker on, keep the dog to the front in sight and go slam some birds. Breed for bidability and point and pray to god they can find birds. But a dog 100% reliable on its owner is worthless.

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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:28 am

ultracarry wrote:If you could not use an ecollar, can not afford one, or just refuse to use on then I would 100% agree with you.

But in a hunting scenario bird finding ability is 100% what you want. You can control the dogs range with the collar but if he finds birds and stands then why would the average hunter care? Slap a collar and garmin or tracker on, keep the dog to the front in sight and go slam some birds. Breed for bidability and point and pray to god they can find birds. But a dog 100% reliable on its owner is worthless.
I hve had dogs and collars and I still do not use it to control range. There is no quicker way to ruin a dog than to be continually hacking eithr verbally or worse with a collar. First rule of collar use in the field is never never use it if you can't see the dog and what it is doing.

Ezzy
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Re: Weight restrictions

Post by Elkhunter » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:41 am

ezzy333 wrote:
ultracarry wrote:If you could not use an ecollar, can not afford one, or just refuse to use on then I would 100% agree with you.

But in a hunting scenario bird finding ability is 100% what you want. You can control the dogs range with the collar but if he finds birds and stands then why would the average hunter care? Slap a collar and garmin or tracker on, keep the dog to the front in sight and go slam some birds. Breed for bidability and point and pray to god they can find birds. But a dog 100% reliable on its owner is worthless.
I hve had dogs and collars and I still do not use it to control range. There is no quicker way to ruin a dog than to be continually hacking eithr verbally or worse with a collar. First rule of collar use in the field is never never use it if you can't see the dog and what it is doing.

Ezzy
Ezzy at some point you have to use the collar to let the dog know what range is acceptable, when I first got my pointer if I did nothing he would be 1000 yards away and blowing through the country to feel the wind in his ears. A few quick hits on the collar and some training and now he handles like a dream. Some dogs never catch on though and need constant hacking, I dont like those dogs. My dog knows to float out there where I want him.

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