Weight restrictions

[ultracarry]

It's not going to ruin your dog to ensure they obey a command they already know. If you have a dog that has desire to go out and find birds, is greedy as heck, and will listen occasionally you are not going to ruin them by letting them know you want them to check something out and to not keep running the same line.

To put it a different way some people that are older and more expierenced than I have even used two collars on a dog. One on one side of his neck the other on the oposite. This dog was an AKC all breed champion at one point. As he got older (around 14) the owner nicked him to make him turn because he couldn't hear. Hunted him through 14 until he passed.

Good way to ruin dogs? Maybe if you don't know what your doing and use an incompetent dog.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Gentlemen,
Ezzy has a good point, however I do believe he used the wrong wording to get his point across. What the collar does is permit breeders to breed an inferior dog who must be repeatedly controlled with the collar, eliminating the biddable instinctive genetic imprint that all great hunting dogs, especially Grouse dogs, must have for the breeders to have a great gun dog hunting line. This is why knowing the difference between the dog lines is so important, again I keep saying this has nothing to due with range, it has to due with instinctive bidability. If an owner must keep using the e-collar to manage his gun dog while hunting, the owner purchased the wrong kind of dog to accomplish the job he wants done. The dog should instinctively hunt with his master, we believe the e-collar should only be used as a training tool, not a hacking device for poor genetics. Unfortunately many people like Ultra believe the e-collar should be used to try to make the dog hunt for the master, in reality the dog will work to which ever genetic imprint is dominant in their blood line. You either own a dog who instictively hunts for the master or you own a dog that instictively independently hunts for itself.
Both type animals are great dogs, for the job they were bred to accomplish. Many owners use discarded FT type dogs to Grouse hunt with, constantly using the collar to try controlling the dog. However what usually happens as the owner matures and becomes more experienced in the Grouse woods, he realizes that there are biddable dog lines that are actually bred to accomplish what he most wants to due, and he starts looking for a biddable Grouse dog, that instinctively hunts for him. Men like Nash Buckingham and Henry Davis knew that there were different types of dogs and they owned both, and wrote about both. The e-collar does allow the non biddable dog lines to be used more readily for foot hunting, it however does not change the instinctive genetic imprint of the dog line.
RGD/Dave

[Elkhunter]

Ryman,

I believe all dogs were created to be "bird dogs". A "FT" dog wins because he is a bird dog first, not a run off first and a "bird dog" second or third. The ones that are successful are very very very good bird dogs.

I think each dog has its own genetic imprint of being a "bird dog" irregardless of species of bird that we chase, you keep mentioning that only certain lines of dogs can be "good grouse dogs" and I find zero truth to that argument. If that was so then there would be good "chukar dog" lines and "good hungarian partridge" lines and "good sharptail" lines. There are good bird dog lines period, how the dog is exposed and trained has more of a role in my opinion than a genetic imprint of a "grouse dog". I am sure none of the dogs in my EP's pedigree have ever seen a wild chukar in their lives, but through the right exposure and training he is an amazing chukar dog. And also an amazing "hun" dog. He is just a great bird dog period, though you could argue his genetic imprint is to be a FT dog since that is how he is bred. But he excels at the job he was exposed to and trained to do.

[ultracarry]

Dave I believe you are right about me. Maybe that's why I have never been able to do anything with this dog
I have.

An ecollar just is to reinforce what you have already taught the dog... Yea we get it.

If you go out west with your hunting machine walking point dogs our talking about I will bet you every penny in mg wallet they will flat refuse to go jump the rocks and jagged edges these dogs are expected to go up. I can bet you every penny in my wallet you couldn't even climb one. You obviously don't have a clue what we expect out of these untrainable dogs we have for field trialing and hunting chukar. And it flat out baffles you that we claim we can calm them down and hunt them in the same retain that holds your prized birds. Ya the same dogs that go half a mile to a mile will also shorten to under 100 yards to work thick cover. We may need to remind them to slow down or call them back occasionally but that's not above the rules of a seasons grouse veteran like yourself is it?

[ezzy333]

Dave I believe you are right about me. Maybe that's why I have never been able to do anything with this dog
I have.

An ecollar just is to reinforce what you have already taught the dog... Yea we get it.

If you go out west with your hunting machine walking point dogs our talking about I will bet you every penny in mg wallet they will flat refuse to go jump the rocks and jagged edges these dogs are expected to go up. I can bet you every penny in my wallet you couldn't even climb one. You obviously don't have a clue what we expect out of these untrainable dogs we have for field trialing and hunting chukar. And it flat out baffles you that we claim we can calm them down and hunt them in the same retain that holds your prized birds. Ya the same dogs that go half a mile to a mile will also shorten to under 100 yards to work thick cover. We may need to remind them to slow down or call them back occasionally but that's not above the rules of a seasons grouse veteran like yourself is it?

I do know what is expected and I don't believe a thing you are saying about our dogs. They may do it different but like you said they are bird dogs. I have pups out of my two dogs that are out in your country for the hunting season and then come back here afterwards. Bird dogs will be bird dogs no matter what part of the country they are in and no matter what the game of the day is. They are still bird dogs and believe it or not the western dogs are not better because they are in the west.

Ezzy

[ezzy333]

Gentlemen,
Ezzy has a good point, however I do believe he used the wrong wording to get his point across. What the collar does is permit breeders to breed an inferior dog who must be repeatedly controlled with the collar, eliminating the biddable instinctive genetic imprint that all great hunting dogs, especially Grouse dogs, must have for the breeders to have a great gun dog hunting line. This is why knowing the difference between the dog lines is so important, again I keep saying this has nothing to due with range, it has to due with instinctive bidability. If an owner must keep using the e-collar to manage his gun dog while hunting, the owner purchased the wrong kind of dog to accomplish the job he wants done. The dog should instinctively hunt with his master, we believe the e-collar should only be used as a training tool, not a hacking device for poor genetics. Unfortunately many people like Ultra believe the e-collar should be used to try to make the dog hunt for the master, in reality the dog will work to which ever genetic imprint is dominant in their blood line. You either own a dog who instictively hunts for the master or you own a dog that instictively independently hunts for itself.
Both type animals are great dogs, for the job they were bred to accomplish. Many owners use discarded FT type dogs to Grouse hunt with, constantly using the collar to try controlling the dog. However what usually happens as the owner matures and becomes more experienced in the Grouse woods, he realizes that there are biddable dog lines that are actually bred to accomplish what he most wants to due, and he starts looking for a biddable Grouse dog, that instinctively hunts for him. Men like Nash Buckingham and Henry Davis knew that there were different types of dogs and they owned both, and wrote about both. The e-collar does allow the non biddable dog lines to be used more readily for foot hunting, it however does not change the instinctive genetic imprint of the dog line.
RGD/Dave

Dave, If a dog is biddable it will be biddable at any range. The two have little in common. Biddable is a personality trait and range is a physical trait. The pup is born with these two traits somewhat ingrained in their brain.

And just because you idolize some of the old masters and the romance of the stories of that day you have to remember people of those days were not smarter or better informed than the pros and true students of the breeds of today. And though I think some have failed to realize that our dogs have been improved since their time just as they were before their time, I know from your writing on this forum, that you have advanced the knowledge of dogs, grouse, guns, and Potter Cty. So again as we romanticize about the great dogs of those days you should realize the great dogs of today are very much better. If you or anyone else want to argue that point you are just trying to convince all of us that we are and have been wasting our time breeding, trialing, hunting our dogs for the past 100 years and though we have had the advantage of being able to study everything they had learned, we haven't added an iota of knowledge to what they knew. I have trouble thinking we all are that stupid.

Ezzy

[3Britts]

Here is what I have found and what I keep hearing those breeders and trainers that I trust say.
A good bird dog will hunt according to the cover. The type of cover shouldn't matter to a good bird dog.
My Ron hunts larger in the desert areas where I hunt quail and chuckar, he will hunt closer in the hills where I go after grouse, and hunt a field when I guide for pheasant. Good dogs hunt terrain and cover.

[ezzy333]

Here is what I have found and what I keep hearing those breeders and trainers that I trust say.
A good bird dog will hunt according to the cover. The type of cover shouldn't matter to a good bird dog.
My Ron hunts larger in the desert areas where I hunt quail and chuckar, he will hunt closer in the hills where I go after grouse, and hunt a field when I guide for pheasant. Good dogs hunt terrain and cover.

So very true and they also hunt birds, not grouse, quail, pheasants, chukars, but all birds.

Ezzy

[Elkhunter]

Here is what I have found and what I keep hearing those breeders and trainers that I trust say.
A good bird dog will hunt according to the cover. The type of cover shouldn't matter to a good bird dog.
My Ron hunts larger in the desert areas where I hunt quail and chuckar, he will hunt closer in the hills where I go after grouse, and hunt a field when I guide for pheasant. Good dogs hunt terrain and cover.

I took Woody to a preserve and it was a disaster! It was like trying to turn a ferarri on a go cart course so I said the heck with that and wont go again! i think he is just gonna be a wide open dog.

[Chukar12]

Do you think he just didn't know what a preserve was and the game? For instance, most dogs get training wise and when you are foot planting and doing birdwork they will start slinking around every close piece of cover waiting to point...it always seems the same to me with dogs somewhere new. They need some guidance and a fair bit of experience with something or somewhere new before they adjust...Elkhunter, I am guessing Woody's mode is..."we got 9 billion square miles to get covered today lets get to it" He aint learned, and may not unless you go hunt a chicken card a bit, these critters are in field 9b...please do not hunt outside the lines.

[Elkhunter]

Chukar12 I am sure he could figure it out, I just don't have the desire to go to those that often. Its hard to go to those when I can see the chukar hills in the background and dreamin of those instead of trying to kick a bird out of a bush! I dont hunt grouse cause I am chasing Elk during that season, plus I just love the wide open spaces.


But it was pretty embarrassing when my friend and I were bragging up how good Woody is when hunting chukar etc , we pulled up cut him loose and he was in the next field in like 30 seconds and I was trying not to holler and yell too much cause I did not wanna look like an idiot.. Needless to say that was his first and last trip to the bird farm!

[birddogger]

Here is what I have found and what I keep hearing those breeders and trainers that I trust say.
A good bird dog will hunt according to the cover. The type of cover shouldn't matter to a good bird dog.
My Ron hunts larger in the desert areas where I hunt quail and chuckar, he will hunt closer in the hills where I go after grouse, and hunt a field when I guide for pheasant. Good dogs hunt terrain and cover.

So very true and they also hunt birds, not grouse, quail, pheasants, chukars, but all birds.

Ezzy

AMEN my friend!

Charlie

[3Britts]

I don't much like preserves myself, but where else are you going to go so that kids will get a good chance to shot birds. Taking two 8 and one 11 year old to the chuckar hills when they are just starting is a disaster. They get tired. Where going to a game farm get them really excited about hunting and dogs.

[ultracarry]

Take the younger ones out to the training grounds and plant your own quail, chukar, phez, and pigeons. Cheaper and good practice.