A Little Wild Bird hunting with a Small Munsterlander

[birddogger]

If you want to mprove the breed or any breed for that matter you are all concerned about improving the wrong end. I am always amazed at the fact that probably 8 out of every ten posts about any of our dogs today are directed at the tail. Either it moves, it is carried at the wrong position, it isn't straight enough, or some other fact that has nothing to do with hunting ,pointing, or reteiving a bird.

What a change from the not to far past. How and why does the tail have so much importance suddenly? Used to be the nose or the movement, and now the tail. Just unbelieveble whaere we will go to critize our dogs. Between the food we feed and the tail that wags we have some serious problems that have appeared on the scene in the last decade or two.

Ezzy

Ya, and 20 years from now a straight non moving 12:00 tail may be may be a horrible thing. I may be exaggerating but who knows what the next fad will be in pointing dogs. I am not a fan of the 12:00 tail myself but I know I am in the minority. It's just that it seems like at some point people with influence or whatever decide what style should be in a pointing dog and start breeding for it and promoting it. Before you know it [it does take some time] anything less or different is a cull and what used to be great style is now ugly :roll: .

Now that I got that off my chest , I will agree that it would be nice to se more intensity on point in the SM but from what I have read and seen, they are pretty darn good hunting dogs.

Charlie

[JIM K]

These dogs all seemed to stay in range, point with out busting the bird, follow up if the bird moved, point again without busting, flush on command and then retrieve. Looked like they had all the bases covered for bird hunting, maybe not American trialing, but certainly wild bird hunting.

You are correct...sounds like a pointing lab easy, easy.
.

That was pretty rude, smilyicon or not. :roll:


You can take my comment as an excuse if you would like, but as stated it was simply an observation and opinion.

I personally dont care if the SM breed as it is doesnt suit the big feild trialers or hunt test guys. Big deal. It serves a purpose and does it well.

you are right.some are changing to setters from SM because they want to FT .

[JIM K]

That was pretty rude, smilyicon or not. :roll:

Munster, there is a dog for everyone and I am glad you like them. Fact is, like it or not, many point like a pointing Lab or a close working GWP, or GSP.

I personally dont care if the SM breed as it is doesnt suit the big feild trialers or hunt test guys. Big deal. It serves a purpose and does it well.

Even as Ezzy pointed out and Winchey stated, their point is not that strong and breeding for a better point would do wonders..forget the German fur tests (for the American SMs) and concentrate on getting a stronger point...JMO. I personally believe their tracking takes over until many of them are pointing right on top of the bird. A lot of the ones raised on wild birds learn quick that they need to back off...and those are a blast to hunt over.

you are right from what i have been reading.i even talked to breeder in germany last week about this.
he said SM was bred more to retrieve game after shot,to track and point .GREAT NOSE.
a guy in canada went to germany. he bought best he could on SM.his dog does not point well.
another top breeder here in usa said to me,JIM IN LAST 20 YRS THE pointing HAS GOTTEN BETTER BECAUSE THE BREEDERS ARE TRYING TO BREED TO BEST THAT DO THAT.[point]
others that know these dogs say,JIM THATS WRONG,SM DOES POINT .

MOST DO BUT SOME DONT .

i think that SM in pic here that did point and move ahead and point again, MAN THATS SOMETHING.
i agree,SM seem to be real close to grouse on point.thats ok on timberdoodles BUT in my opinion only,thats not good on spooky grouse.
i would want a dog to be back farther on point.
but it does not seem to affect the grouse hunting that most with SM do.

[Munster]

Yes, because the SM was bred as an after the shot dog, it makes it hard to find a strong point. My 7 year old female is a bird finding machine, but she stands birds. A lot of that I feel was the training she got. She was our first bird dog and we defiantly over did the wing on a string. along with our many other blunders. Still, at this point, she is our go to girl.
I imported the male in my avatar, Max, from Germany 2 years ago. He HAD a really nice point out of the box. I have spent the last hunting season trying to get things back. I put way to much stock in the NA test and had him steady to wing/shot and fall by 7 months. WAY to much pressure. But he is close to being back. On wild birds his tail is solid, pen raised it flags some.

I have been looking to import a female from Germany and it is hard to find the stock you want, especially if you dont speak the language.If you look at their testing system it doesnt really test the point that much(true to for for what they want out of these dogs).. In a dogs testing career(VJP,HZP,VGP) the dogs will point a bird 6 times(if two are pointed in each test. Max has only had to point 3 times so far). I guess to me that isnt really enough to truly get a good picture of the dogs point.

I would like to breed at some point, but I dont know that the flagging is a big enough issue for me to want to spend alot of time fixing. I guess to me tracking, water, retrieving, and bidability would be far more important to me. The point is good enough. I would hate to dink with the flagging and loss something somewhere else.

As far as the comment about some SM owners going to Setters. That is great! The SM wasnt for them, but just dont try and make an SM a Setter. That is all I am saying. Like the breed you like for what it is.

In the mean time, a little flag isnt that big of a deal, it helps keep me cool on those hot hunting days!

[fishvik]

I think it is because the dogs are so much better then they were in the past so we can nit pick on the trivial now

Better at what? My understanding is the SM was an all around hunting breed. Birds, rabbits, waterfowl and probably some tracking at big game. And it seems they are still good at it.

You are correct...sounds like a pointing lab easy, easy.

With that logic maybe we only need one pointing breed. GSP's, EP's, ES's, Visula's and Britt's all pretty much do the same thing the same way.

It seems this breed as stayed pretty true to what it was originally bred to do and there is still a niche for that, why do we feel a need to change it? Just for another staunch, big running breed? We have lots of those to choose from.

[Winchey]

"Better at what? My understanding is the SM was an all around hunting breed. Birds, rabbits, waterfowl and probably some tracking at big game. And it seems they are still good at it." (Fishvik)

I wrote the first quote, not Munster. The quote wasn't really directed at SM's. I was on a train of thought after Ezz's statement of people being too concerned with the wrong end of the dog these days and how they worked on important things back in the day. I was just throwing it out there that maybe they succeeded in taking care of the important stuff, and all that is left to do is make it pretty. I would hate to think goals were not accomplished and the breed still has the same problems as it did in the past.

"With that logic maybe we only need one pointing breed. GSP's, EP's, ES's, Visula's and Britt's all pretty much do the same thing the same way. It seems this breed as stayed pretty true to what it was originally bred to do and there is still a niche for that, why do we feel a need to change it? Just for another staunch, big running breed? We have lots of those to choose from." (Fishvik)

There is a niche and market for minpins as well.

Forget flagging, tail set, range and run on the Munster. Many have a lack of pointing instinct, it should be addressed. We already have Small Munsterlanders that don't point and a small market for them, they are called Deutscher Wachtelhund. If you don't care about pointing, maybe that is what you should have.

[Munster]

I have not seen a Munster that didnt point???? Lack of intensity maybe, but never one that didnt point.

[JIM K]

I have not seen a Munster that didnt point???? Lack of intensity maybe, but never one that didnt point.

mary, respectfully,
a friend of mine has 3 SM .1 does not point,he flushes.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

Some SM lines point very well and at an early age, others do not, investigate fully what you are purchasing when puurchasing
the SM dog, Sampson pointed his 1st wild Grouse at 6 weeks of age, his pups pointed very early also. Sampson is also a large male
with great hunting insitncts and fantasic nose. He is also a true versatile dog, who hunts and points not just birds but all fur and feather, he has pointed and retrieved many many Rabbits and Squirrels, his natural retrieving instinct on land and water are incredibly high also. His Duck searches in the water are just beyond belief, and his tracking ability on land is flat out scary. I once watched him stock a wood Duck in the wet land behind Bill Reids home, getting with in 4' of the male wild Wood Duck as he pointed. He has been used thru the years to find everything from other hunters winged Turkeys to Grouse. Pheasants wild or stocked are in serious trouble when he starts tracking them, especially it they have been blooded. He tangled with a hugh Coyote when he was about 7 years old,
because the Coyote reached out from behind a big downed tree, and grabbed him by the head, as he stood Grouse point, between the Coyote and some hen Turkeys, it was one of the most vicious incidents I have ever witnessed in my hunting life. There is one other trait that a SM dog has, that most other hunting dogs do not, SM dogs never forget, ever. These SM dogs think and reason, never ever use a heavy hand when training one of them, they will never ever forget or forgive, when they believe they have been wronged.
These SM dogs are loyal to a fault when raised in a loving home, they take it as an insult when kenneled away from their family.
Owners who kennel their SM dogs way from the family will never have the love and understanding of their SM dog, the Northern German farmers raised these SM dogs as a major part of their family, the SM's thought reasoning and family loyality, is embeded in their genetic imprint. The Northern German farmers bred the dogs to supply game to the open air markets in Germany in the age of Kings, the dogs also guarded the family members and live stock. The actual tail wag was a sign of affection from the dog to its family, breeding the tail wag out of these SM dogs, could in fact change the breeds personallity. The history of these SM dogs is something special, I believe they are more like wolves than any other gun dog.
RGD/Dave

JIm K just recently sent me this beautiful SM on point, even with the incredible three point, I believe the tail is still slightly moving.


Pine Creek Sampson on four Point at a Grouse, note the difference in the tails on these two SM dogs.

[ezzy333]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

Some SM lines point very well and at an early age, others do not, investigate fully what you are purchasing when puurchasing
the SM dog, Sampson pointed his 1st wild Grouse at 6 weeks of age, his pups pointed very early also. Sampson is also a large male
with great hunting insitncts and fantasic nose. He is also a true versatile dog, who hunts and points not just birds but all fur and feather, he has pointed and retrieved many many Rabbits and Squirrels, his natural retrieving instinct on land and water are incredibly high also. His Duck searches in the water are just beyond belief, and his tracking ability on land is flat out scary. I once watched him stock a wood Duck in the wet land behind Bill Reids home, getting with in 4' of the male wild Wood Duck as he pointed. He has been used thru the years to find everything from other hunters winged Turkeys to Grouse. Pheasants wild or stocked are in serious trouble when he starts tracking them, especially it they have been blooded. He tangled with a hugh Coyote when he was about 7 years old,
because the Coyote reached out from behind a big downed tree, and grabbed him by the head, as he stood Grouse point, between the Coyote and some hen Turkeys, it was one of the most vicious incidents I have ever witnessed in my hunting life. There is one other trait that a SM dog has, that most other hunting dogs do not, SM dogs never forget, ever. These SM dogs think and reason, never ever use a heavy hand when training one of them, they will never ever forget or forgive, when they believe they have been wronged.
These SM dogs are loyal to a fault when raised in a loving home, they take it as an insult when kenneled away from their family.
Owners who kennel their SM dogs way from the family will never have the love and understanding of their SM dog, the Northern German farmers raised these SM dogs as a major part of their family, the SM's thought reasoning and family loyality, is embeded in their genetic imprint. The Northern German farmers bred the dogs to supply game to the open air markets in Germany in the age of Kings, the dogs also guarded the family members and live stock. The actual tail wag was a sign of affection from the dog to its family, breeding the tail wag out of these SM dogs, could in fact change the breeds personallity. The history of these SM dogs is something special, I believe they are more like wolves than any other gun dog.
RGD/Dave

Sounds a lot like my Britts. But I am sure much of the history is folklore today. Like the story of the dogs being used to provide wild game for the markets in the time of the kings. If that happened the people who did it probably wouldn't have lived as the royality just didn't appreciate anyone poaching their game. That was supposedly why the Britts were bred like they were to advoid detetion of the game masters in old Europe. The few SM I have ever known were really nice dogs that jut haven't been bred to quite the same standard as most of the pointing versatles but overall do a nice job in the field if you can get by some of the style points we have added to most of the Americam bred dogs.

Ezzy

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Ezzy,
The history of the SM dogs is well documented, in fact the German Kings had the SM dogs registed because they did not want them working their forests without permission, and they became one of the 1st registered/pedigreed dog breeds known.
I do beleive the German SM Breed Wardens might take big offence to your views on their prize animals, which have been tested to a standard longer than most any other hunting dog.
RGD/Dave

[ezzy333]

Ezzy,
The history of the SM dogs is well documented, in fact the German Kings had the SM dogs registed because they did not want them working their forests without permission, and they became one of the 1st registered/pedigreed dog breeds known.
I do beleive the German SM Breed Wardens might take big offence to your views on their prize animals, which have been tested to a standard longer than most any other hunting dog.
RGD/Dave

You really think they would take offense at something written on our forum. That would be ashame. I have always thought the breed wardens must have pretty thick skin to put up with all of the criticism they take over their policies. I'll bet you ten bucks you can't find a single one of them that were offended. If you do have them get on here and tell us about it.

The history of all the breeds was pretty well documented even though there are a lot of holes in that documentation today due in large part to many and in some cases most of it being lost during the two world wars. Dogs were not real high on the priority list during those times.

Ezzy

[Ruffshooter]

Okay fellas time for a nap;

We have had a few SM test at our chapter in Maine. On of the most fun duck searchs I ever saw was by a SM. Although he was way to noisy, barking the whole time, but boy did he cover that water and bog. He was from NJ. Have had others from Canada that did very well.

I like the SM. I have hunted behind just one and it was very similar to Daves footage.

Time for my luch and maybe a nap too.

Oh Dave thanks for posting the video.

[Munster]

Dave, where have you gotten your info from? I have not been able to find that in depth infor on this breed anywhere

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Munster,
Which indepth information are you asking about, if its the about the Northern German Farmers, and how the dogs were housed with the family, our family was part of those northern German farmers who owned the dogs for many generations. Also one of the breeders has some of this historical information on his kennel web sight for all to read, can't remember which sight it is, might be True Point Kennels, check out their routes and origin section. Goschkennels also has a small history section you might want to read.
RGD/Dave

[Munster]

Ya, I have read most. Thought maybe you ran into soething that I hadnt read before Always wanting to learn more about the history of these dogs.

I do have to disagree with one of your statements though. I find that they are pretty forgiving dogs. Max has had to put up with alot of my fumblings and still comes back smiling.
But maybe he is the exception.........who knows.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Munster,
I was speaking more to the heavy handed trainer and also being attacked by a wild animal situation, when I made that point, Munsters are also people oriented animals and need to be treated as part of the family.
RGD/Dave

[JIM K]

Dave,
Thx for the video. I watched it and yes that, running, pointing, retrieving is VERY typical of a SM. I agree with 99% of what you said above. BUT, I do not agree with your blanket statement that "German Versatile gun dogs are permitted to tail wag". Not so with the German Shorthairs, German Wirehairs, Pudelpointer or other German pointing breeds. Don't take this the wrong way but every SM owner I have been around looks the other way when it comes to flagging and wishes it was not a feature of the SM. I bet if you took a unbiased vote, the majority of them would ask that the SM breeding "authority" to breed that out of them. I seem to have this conversation with every SM owner I run with and to a person they say that it is bred in them but it is usually enhanced by training methods. JMO

my SM flags at 5 months when TRACKING.i kind of like it because in woods i knowhe is on to something and being whiskers is more MANTLE than white with brown spot or roan, it makes it easier to see him .

[JIM K]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJCbL1Q84qw

this is whiskers mom [BELLE] hunting with keven crabtree breeder.whiskers looks like father[crabtrees gus].4 of dogs scored prize 1/2 thing and are moving on .some at very young age.
this line is from dean rasmussen [fez] line going back a few years on BELLE mother.

you can see how CLOSE they point to game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJCbL1Q84qw

[chiendog]

Ezzy,
The history of the SM dogs is well documented, in fact the German Kings had the SM dogs registed because they did not want them working their forests without permission, and they became one of the 1st registered/pedigreed dog breeds known.
I do beleive the German SM Breed Wardens might take big offence to your views on their prize animals, which have been tested to a standard longer than most any other hunting dog.
RGD/Dave

Wrong.

[ACooper]

Ezzy,
The history of the SM dogs is well documented, in fact the German Kings had the SM dogs registed because they did not want them working their forests without permission, and they became one of the 1st registered/pedigreed dog breeds known.
I do beleive the German SM Breed Wardens might take big offence to your views on their prize animals, which have been tested to a standard longer than most any other hunting dog.
RGD/Dave

Wrong.

Digging up an old one, however RGD doesn't post here anymore but if you read 99% of his posts you will realize they are a total waste of time, he seems to enjoy making up stories about breed history of SM and Weims.

[Munster]

Forums are fun!!!!!

[Winchey]

I miss Dave. I wish he would write a book, fiction is good too! This forum lost a lot of its entertainment value after him and Birddogz left.

[chiendog]

Sorry, I was doing a search for SM info, came across the thread and thought it was from Jan of this year...my bad!

In any case, when I read the 'info' presented I spit out half the cup of tea I was drinking...so now I have to clean my desk

[JIM K]

That was pretty rude, smilyicon or not. :roll:

Munster, there is a dog for everyone and I am glad you like them. Fact is, like it or not, many point like a pointing Lab or a close working GWP, or GSP.

I personally dont care if the SM breed as it is doesnt suit the big feild trialers or hunt test guys. Big deal. It serves a purpose and does it well.

Even as Ezzy pointed out and Winchey stated, their point is not that strong and breeding for a better point would do wonders..forget the German fur tests (for the American SMs) and concentrate on getting a stronger point...JMO. I personally believe their tracking takes over until many of them are pointing right on top of the bird. A lot of the ones raised on wild birds learn quick that they need to back off...and those are a blast to hunt over.

you are right on ,i believe?
my sm whiskers is year old so he is still a pup.
his POINTING is very good.
but as you said his TRACKING ability takes over more than his pointing .
he tracks right to bird,then POINTS.
as you say i am hoping as he learns that getting close to bird causes it too flush .
i am seeing that somewhat today.
he chases birds after pointing them.
i like that,no problem .
but i dont like him chasing birds for 100 yds barking.
TODAY he only chased bird 15 yds and turned and came back.
little bugger is LEARNING that now he cant catch bird and hopefully he will slow down on chases

whiskers has very strong pointing in him BUT his tracking ability is stronger.

[JIM K]

I miss Dave. I wish he would write a book, fiction is good too! This forum lost a lot of its entertainment value after him and Birddogz left.

i talk to RYMAN GUN DOG every so often as he is very nice person and does know hunting dogs.
in fact, i got whiskers my sm on a referral from him to breeder in so.dakota who did not have litter available.
so dean referred me to crabtree and that story, i got whiskers 1 year ago and he is hoot.

not all SM point well.it was very important that i got one that came from person who POINTING as reason to breed.
ryman gun dog set me up so i did get one that had a stronger pointing genes in them.
boy does whiskers point.
i have friend in phil who has 3 SM and 2 point and 1 does not.
when he saw whiskers pointing at 5 months on bugs and moles and birds in yard, HE WAS NOT TOO HAPPY and said this too me.
JIM CAN I TELL YOU I AM VERY JEALOUS
he very seldom calls me anymore too. :roll:

[Neil]

The guy with the GoPro is a great shot, so much for never putting your thumb over the rib.