A Little Wild Bird hunting with a Small Munsterlander

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:05 pm

Ladies & Gentlemen,

One of the men dropped me this fine video of Woodcock & Grouse hunting in Maine, with a Small Munsterlander versatile dog.
I thought you might like to see it, for those who are considering the purchase of a fine SM dog here is some of what you can expect from
your SM on wild birds.
RGD/Dave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ukqv20AWhWA

southwayno · Post by **southwayno** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:06 pm

Errrr.... Shooting a bird out of a tree

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:21 pm

Didn't see any shooting birds out of a tree but that is how people roll up here. I would say 90% plus of the birds taken up here are from trees or the ground. "Hunt with a dog? He will scare all the birds away." lol

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:37 pm

Nice video, good dog work and good shooting. Not particularly my type of dog, but I enjoy watching them all. Thanks for sharing.

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:26 pm

birddogger wrote:Nice video, good dog work and good shooting. Not particularly my type of dog, but I enjoy watching them all. Thanks for sharing.

Charlie

Gotta agree. Good dog work pointing and retrieving. Just a little less intense on the point than what I am used to but was impressed with everything else including the shooting.

Ezzy

Max2 · Post by **Max2** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:38 am

What a cool video !
Thank's for sharing !

fishvik · Post by **fishvik** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:37 am

Neat video, I don't know but the flagging on that little dogs point, while it may be blasphemy, sure looks like it may be handy to find that dog in that cover without a beeper collar. I really like watching the guy crossing on the log, looks like my hunting trips

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:23 am

Gentlemen,
German Versatile gun dogs are permitted to tail wag, remember this is a German Small Munsterlander not an US English Setter.
This is a typical SM Grouse and Woodcock hunt, in the Maine forest. The dog works both close and far depending on the birds location,
relocates and flushed on command, I do wish the audio had been left on, so people could hear, as well as see what was going on.
In reality this is how a well trained SM works the woods with her master, I have a male who works in a similar manner with a higher less flaggy tail. However the tail movement and height means absolutely nothing to the SM gun dog. The instinctive bird finding and handeling of both fur and feather for the master, along with instinctive retrieving, means everything in the SM's breeding program.

FishVik,
The SM is not a real small dog, think of its size as about 2 1/2" bigger than a long legged Brit, the Brit would need to be on steroids to be as strong as the Male SM however. SM dogs have their own hunting style more like a Red Wolf than most tame dogs, they become very loyal, protective gun dogs that produce both feather & fur for their masters gunning. Sampson my male SM is 14 now and we still shot Grouse over him this past season, this particular video is a good example of how the SM handles wild Grouse and Woodcock.

South,
You are mistaken.

RGD/Dave

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:02 am

Dave,
Thx for the video. I watched it and yes that, running, pointing, retrieving is VERY typical of a SM. I agree with 99% of what you said above. BUT, I do not agree with your blanket statement that "German Versatile gun dogs are permitted to tail wag". Not so with the German Shorthairs, German Wirehairs, Pudelpointer or other German pointing breeds. Don't take this the wrong way but every SM owner I have been around looks the other way when it comes to flagging and wishes it was not a feature of the SM. I bet if you took a unbiased vote, the majority of them would ask that the SM breeding "authority" to breed that out of them. I seem to have this conversation with every SM owner I run with and to a person they say that it is bred in them but it is usually enhanced by training methods. JMO

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:24 pm

PtnrRookie,
I should have said German SM dogs, I did use poor wording, you are correct about the other breeds, I agree most owners would like to see the flagging bred out of these SM dogs, my SM male instinctively flaggs very little, other lines do flag a lot more, Molly evidently comes from such a SM line. However it really means nothing as to the dogs actual instinctive hunting talent. I do know this even with flagging very little an SM's tail can get very beat up and bloody, notice the Bloody tail on L.C. a pup fathered by my male. This to me is one big reason to eliminate flagging in my opinion.
RGD/Dave

Kurt doing a little flush on Command training with two versatile gun dogs. Notice the bloody tail on the female SM.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:54 pm

I have been working this little SM pup this past winter with his owner, a close friend of mine. He pointed this pigeon better than ANY SM (doesn't matter age) I have seen. Longer he stood, the better the tail got. NO flagging. I was the one taking these picts. Then a couple weeks later, the flagging was slightly there. I hope to see this little guy grow up and watch his progress.

045.jpg

044.jpg

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:11 pm

Mines all over the place. Sometimes flags like a fiend sometimes not, tail poker straight and 11 oclock, then the next flat.

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:51 pm

PR,
Nice looking SM pup no doubt about it, even looks like one of Sampsons pups. Sams flaging is very slight evey now and then, depending on the situation at hand, all our pups stook point for long periods of time, especially Grouse point, it seems to be a drug to them. Have watched Sampson stand with his head high in the Grouse woods for a very long time, and never move as we climbed the mountain in the deep snow to get to him, it seems that when the SM dogs have a lot of point they really have it, unfortunately it seems only a few of the SM lines have it. I really do like the looks of that particular pup, how old is he? Do you know which breeder supplied the dog?
RGD/Dave

Pine Creek Sampson, a highly disciplined old man, with his true Double Grouse taken with a 16 Gauge L.C. Smith Hammer gun.
One of the high lights of my Grouse hunting life, he also set up the only Grouse Scotch Double I have ever taken.
I love my Setter dogs and everyone knows it, however if I had to put game and birds on the table to live off of, the SM
is the dog I want to hunt behind.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:18 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote: it seems that when the SM dogs have a lot of point they really have it, unfortunately it seems only a few of the SM lines have it.

so why wouldn't the SM breeding authority put that as one of the things they look/strive for? They have plenty of "other" stuff they regulate. That pup is from Lynn Kirstetter's (sp?) breeding. He has a couple very nice SMs. I believe this pup goes back to "Hans" http://www.uplandpointerkennels.com/

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:07 pm

Good question.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:12 pm

to me,any dog that can point a grouse so i can get closer for shot,is very nice.
SM from what dave and many others said is very good in home.
me, i could care less if tail went in circle BUT i understand you folks very well.

to me, a dog that can hunt for 4 hrs,looks for you, hunts close,points a grouse and most important thing to me,GO FIND GROUSE AFTER SHOT.
is very nice.
i saw many pointers that could not find a bird after it was shot.
those SM look to me to be a GROUSE/PHEASANT finder after shot.

man, thats something.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:18 pm

southwayno wrote:Errrr.... Shooting a bird out of a tree

no bird was shot out of tree.i lost a friend because he shot pheasant on ground.
sadly i warned him.that is touchy thing with me,in tree or on ground.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:26 pm

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJCbL1Q84qw

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:33 pm

PntrRookie wrote:
Ryman Gun Dog wrote: it seems that when the SM dogs have a lot of point they really have it, unfortunately it seems only a few of the SM lines have it.
so why wouldn't the SM breeding authority put that as one of the things they look/strive for? They have plenty of "other" stuff they regulate. That pup is from Lynn Kirstetter's (sp?) breeding. He has a couple very nice SMs. I believe this pup goes back to "Hans" http://www.uplandpointerkennels.com/

i was talking with dave thun today.had question on pointing.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:53 am

sproulman wrote:i was talking with dave thun today.had question on pointing.

Those 2 pup pictures I posted are of his dog...VERY nice young dog.

fishvik · Post by **fishvik** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:35 am

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Gentlemen,
German Versatile gun dogs are permitted to tail wag, remember this is a German Small Munsterlander not an US English Setter.

Dave, I hope you didn't think I thought' that this was a bad trait. Flagging may be a benefit to finding them in thick cover. These look like a great breed. How much do they normally weigh and how well do they take to cold water? That one in the video looked like it had no reluctance to jumping into that pond. Arn/fishvik

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:49 am

I have hunted mine in minus double digits for waterfowl, he got it done but a lab he is not. If you are frequently waterfowling in minus temps it's probably not the best choice. Otherwise he should do just fine, waterwork and retrieving is their stronger suit IMO.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:54 am

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Ladies & Gentlemen,

One of the men dropped me this fine video of Woodcock & Grouse hunting in Maine, with a Small Munsterlander versatile dog.
I thought you might like to see it, for those who are considering the purchase of a fine SM dog here is some of what you can expect from
your SM on wild birds.
RGD/Dave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ukqv20AWhWA

Flagging or not, that's one heck of a nice bird dog!!

Doug

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:12 pm

I have seen a few in NAVHDA testing and they were some nice dogs.

Charlie

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:16 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Ladies & Gentlemen,

One of the men dropped me this fine video of Woodcock & Grouse hunting in Maine, with a Small Munsterlander versatile dog.
I thought you might like to see it, for those who are considering the purchase of a fine SM dog here is some of what you can expect from
your SM on wild birds.
RGD/Dave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ukqv20AWhWA
Flagging or not, that's one heck of a nice bird dog!!

Doug

if my SM can do what i saw in that pic,MAN I WILL BE HEAVEN.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:23 pm

Out of curiosity, what is the difference between the SM and LM besides the obvious?

Charlie

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:39 pm

LM was a colour fault of the German Long Hair Pointer that they developed and called a LM. Small Munsterlanders come from the same dogs that were used to develop the Wachatelhund and German Longhair.

Border · Post by **Border** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:23 pm

Excellent video. As someone that has lived and hunted In NH and Maine my entire life,I know how hard it must be to get grouse hunting footage like this.The guy filming did a great job !

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:58 pm

Thanks, I didn't have a clue.

Charlie

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:52 pm

PntrRookie & FishVik
You must remember the SM is a true Versatile German hunting dog, not a US type AKC pointing type dog, the SM points and flushes
many different kinds of birds and game. The German SM has been bred & tested in a certain manner by the parent club and their breed Wardens for 100's of years. Now the SM dog in the USA is basically a NAVHDA dog controlled by the SM club of America, they may very well start to breed for a higher, less flaggy tail, the German SM club however probably never will, its just does not seem to be important to them. If you would post the contact info for the breeder of this SM pup, I would appreciate it, or drop me some private e-mail at Pine-Creek@live.com

Sproulman,
With the blood line your SM pup comes form he will be a serious Grouse and Woodcock dog, Rasmussens line produces some incredible
Grouse and wild Pheasant dogs, that is why I recommed Deans stock so highly. When ever you are ready bring your pup up to
our place and we will start you down the right path, I just wish Sampson was still young enough to have your pup work behind him.
Maybe I can convince Mike, to bring L.C. up to our place for you to work your pup with, she is one big time Grouse dog and is Sampsons daughter. She is 7 or 8 years old now, and has had many many Grouse and Timberdoodles killed over her, here in the Pa mountains,
especially in the Kettle Creek area. SM dogs have their own style, some people do not take to it, others like myself love it.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:57 pm

Actually the SMCNA just joined the German parent club and are going the German route.

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:28 pm

Wincey,
I heard the same thing about SMCNA, its actually a good thing in reality, these are German versatile hunting dogs and should remain that way, in my opinion. AKC would do them no good at all.
RGD/Dave

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:14 am

I think some Americanization would do some good, but that is just my opinion. Time will tell and I hope the breed remains pretty much intact with some more emphasis on point, but again, my opinion.

Sniper John · Post by **Sniper John** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:18 am

I 2nd whoever did the filming did a great job!

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:36 pm

Wincey,
I like the idea of breeding to eliminate the flagging also, however if it is to the detriment of the actual game and bird finding instinct,
that would be something I would not want to see. These German Breed Wardens and the SM parent club have bred & tested these SM dogs for a long long time, I do believe they know what they are doing with the breed line.
RGD/Dave

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:03 pm

Gentlemen,
The next time you are with a group of men some place and someone starts running down SM dogs, because they do not play games very well. I ask you to remember how well SM dogs really handle wild birds and hunt for their master, I have a real soft spot in my heart for these SM dogs, our family has owned them from before they ever appeared in the USA.
In this particular video you get to witness how they work wild birds, they also work fur in the same manner, and I shot my 1st Turkey
behind my 13 year old SM, this last year here in Pa. I will never forget how proud that old male dog was as he retrieved a 20 Lb Turkey to hand, on my own property in Potter/Tioga. Sampson snuck up on that Turkey and pointed it just like a Grouse, flushed the bird into the air on Command, and instinctively retrieved the big bird to hand, at an age when most gun dogs are way past hunting. These dogs become extremely loyal companions and do some amazing things at advanced ages, if you are looking for a serious gun dog consider a SM dog form the right lines. As a pure hunting dog few animals are their equal.
RGD/Dave

Sampson at age 10 giving lessons to a big time Gordon Grouse dog, who was 1/4 his age and 5 times his speed, setting up these two Grouse under the snow, when 4 other Grouse dogs, a Brit, my buddies GSP and the Gordons passed them by. It is not the fastest dog in the woods that sets the birds for gunning, it's often the most experienced Grouse dog that puts on the show. A sneaky old man who makes dreams come true in the woods, he is also responsible for the only Scotch double I have taken in my life time of Grouse hunting.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:34 pm

dave, what size is your dog crate for sampson ?

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:19 pm

The SMCNA has not officially gone to the German system yet. It is in the works, there are alot of details that are still being worked out.

I dont want to see these dogs get "Americanized" no offense Winchey. They are a German bred dog and the standards should be kept as such.. I figure if a person want more point or a tail that doesnt flag, there are plenty of American breeds out there that will suit them.
The German are more concerned about game recovery after the shot. This little dog was bred for that purpose. I would hate to see things lost when folks start trying to tweek things.

The legit breeders that I know are working on the point, but with a total of 24(ish) males and maybe 40 females that are approved to breed, that can and will take awhile. Those numbers by the way are a rough estimate.
Another thing to think about is what is causing the flagging. I certainly have not owned SM's for decades like some, but it seems the training methods used can drastically affect the point. I believe that these dogs are intelligent enough to know, figure out and get bored with the same old same old. I think you have to constantly challenge them.

Understand that isnt ment to be a "my dog is smarter then yours" statement. It is just what I have seen and what I am learning from them.

Dave, hats off to you sir. I get tired of hearing derogatory and misinformed statements about this great breed, it is nice to hear a seasoned vet such as yourself have some good input and appreciation of our dogs. I wish more would take the time to get to know what great hunting dogs and companions they truly are.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:00 am

I don't hunt in Germany and I do not hunt like a German so I don't really agree that we should be breeding dogs tailored to Germans rather then to us. Britts, Ep's, Es's and Gsp's obviously are not exactly American breeds, but they owe their success to people who tailored them to our wants and needs.

There are many dogs that have a lot of retrieve in them and a lot of point. Is the SM just bread for game recovery? Or is it a versatile dog? If it is a retriever we still have a lot of ground to make up.

I would hate to see the breeding program strive for mediocrity because they think that by trying to improve on weak aspects that they may ruin the breed? Another problem is the flagging that you attribute to the dog to being intelligent and easily bored. Becoming easily bored and more difficult to train is another problem imo.

I like the breed and will own more but there are weak attributes that should be addressed as well. I am not saying we should be trying to turn them into AA trial dogs, I am saying we shouldn't make excuses for the shortcomings. I think there is lots of room within the breed standard to do so.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:25 am

Winchey wrote:I don't hunt in Germany and I do not hunt like a German so I don't really agree that we should be breeding dogs tailored to Germans rather then to us.

Winchey your posts have a lot of points I agree with...the above being one of them.

Hookadooka BirdDogs · Post by **Hookadooka BirdDogs** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:41 am

Interesting video of a small Munsterlander (moonsterlander) in training as a versatile hunter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H90AFZgQ9kE

fishvik · Post by **fishvik** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:00 am

I guess my question is why all the concern about flagging in this breed? It doesn't seem to effect any of it's hunting ability. In the videos in this post I sure didn't see any wild flushes due to the dogs tail wagging. Or is this just some trait we feel a dog must have to hunt birds in America. These dogs all seemed to stay in range, point with out busting the bird, follow up if the bird moved, point again without busting, flush on command and then retrieve. Looked like they had all the bases covered for bird hunting, maybe not American trialing, but certainly wild bird hunting.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:20 am

fishvik wrote:These dogs all seemed to stay in range, point with out busting the bird, follow up if the bird moved, point again without busting, flush on command and then retrieve. Looked like they had all the bases covered for bird hunting, maybe not American trialing, but certainly wild bird hunting.

You are correct...sounds like a pointing lab

easy, easy.

If owners want to breed to "improve the breed" wouldn't flagging be something you should/could strive to improve on? Backing for another dog can be tough (especially in the woods) when you see a tail wagging most dogs do not back because they see a dog in motion. JMO...

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:41 am

It is not so much the flagging that is a big concern to me, it is the weak pointing instinct as compared to other pointing breeds that concerns me. I think the flagging may be an indicator of this, which should be a concern. Considering the breed is used primarily to hunt upland birds here, you would think that pointing instinct would be one of the main attributes to look for in a pointing dog.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:38 am

If you want to mprove the breed or any breed for that matter you are all concerned about improving the wrong end. I am always amazed at the fact that probably 8 out of every ten posts about any of our dogs today are directed at the tail. Either it moves, it is carried at the wrong position, it isn't straight enough, or some other fact that has nothing to do with hunting ,pointing, or reteiving a bird.

What a change from the not to far past. How and why does the tail have so much importance suddenly? Used to be the nose or the movement, and now the tail. Just unbelieveble whaere we will go to critize our dogs. Between the food we feed and the tail that wags we have some serious problems that have appeared on the scene in the last decade or two.

Ezzy

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:45 am

PntrRookie wrote:
fishvik wrote:These dogs all seemed to stay in range, point with out busting the bird, follow up if the bird moved, point again without busting, flush on command and then retrieve. Looked like they had all the bases covered for bird hunting, maybe not American trialing, but certainly wild bird hunting.
You are correct...sounds like a pointing lab easy, easy.
.

That was pretty rude, smilyicon or not. :roll:

You can take my comment as an excuse if you would like, but as stated it was simply an observation and opinion.

I personally dont care if the SM breed as it is doesnt suit the big feild trialers or hunt test guys. Big deal. It serves a purpose and does it well.

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:46 am

ezzy333 wrote:If you want to mprove the breed or any breed for that matter you are all concerned about improving the wrong end. I am always amazed at the fact that probably 8 out of every ten posts about any of our dogs today are directed at the tail. Either it moves, it is carried at the wrong position, it isn't straight enough, or some other fact that has nothing to do with hunting ,pointing, or reteiving a bird.

What a change from the not to far past. How and why does the tail have so much importance suddenly? Used to be the nose or the movement, and now the tail. Just unbelieveble whaere we will go to critize our dogs. Between the food we feed and the tail that wags we have some serious problems that have appeared on the scene in the last decade or two.

Ezzy

Thank you. Wish I could have remained calm enough to put that one together.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:38 am

Munster wrote:That was pretty rude, smilyicon or not. :roll:

Munster, there is a dog for everyone and I am glad you like them. Fact is, like it or not, many point like a pointing Lab or a close working GWP, or GSP.

Munster wrote:I personally dont care if the SM breed as it is doesnt suit the big feild trialers or hunt test guys. Big deal. It serves a purpose and does it well.

Even as Ezzy pointed out and Winchey stated, their point is not that strong and breeding for a better point would do wonders..forget the German fur tests (for the American SMs) and concentrate on getting a stronger point...JMO. I personally believe their tracking takes over until many of them are pointing right on top of the bird. A lot of the ones raised on wild birds learn quick that they need to back off...and those are a blast to hunt over.

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:53 pm

oK

Im not biting.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:19 pm

ezzy333 wrote:If you want to mprove the breed or any breed for that matter you are all concerned about improving the wrong end. I am always amazed at the fact that probably 8 out of every ten posts about any of our dogs today are directed at the tail. Either it moves, it is carried at the wrong position, it isn't straight enough, or some other fact that has nothing to do with hunting ,pointing, or reteiving a bird.

What a change from the not to far past. How and why does the tail have so much importance suddenly? Used to be the nose or the movement, and now the tail. Just unbelieveble whaere we will go to critize our dogs. Between the food we feed and the tail that wags we have some serious problems that have appeared on the scene in the last decade or two.

Ezzy

I think it is because the dogs are so much better then they were in the past so we can nit pick on the trivial now