Pennsylvania Grouse

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:17 pm

First off, I'm a newbie grouse hunter but a veteran woodcock hunter.

This is my first season really hunting grouse (in PA). I dabbled a little in my twenties when I lived in NC but to no avail, I lived too far from the mountains in NC.

So far I've spent approximately 6 hours in the woods looking for ruff (I know that's not much but bear with me). I know the area I'm hunting holds grouse because I've seen four and heard one other in late September/early October. The four that I saw were from my truck on two separate occasions.

My question is: Where are they early season?

I've hunted every seemingly possible grousy looking habitat to no avail. I've hunted [big woods w/ laurel thickets] to [select cuts full of brier canes and ten foot tall birch stands] and (seemingly) everything in between.

What's the deal? (I'm hunting dogless btw)

Are they so widely disbursed during the early season that it's hit or miss? Once most of the leafy vegetation is gone will they be condensed to the thickets that I've been on edge walking through expecting a grouse to burst at any moment?

Any comments/advice/wisdom welcome!

Regards,

UplandJim

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:50 pm

48 views and not a single one of them has flushed a grouse early season?

If you've flushed a grouse early season, all I'm looking for is a description of the surrounding habitat.

Thanks!

UplandJim

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:39 am

Sorry Jim... still lookin... just got home from work and I'm headed out... I'll let ya know how we do

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:42 am

SHORTFAT wrote:Sorry Jim... still lookin... just got home from work and I'm headed out... I'll let ya know how we do

Good luck!

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:58 pm

2 flushes way out in front of us... dog never pinned one down...

but I know there are at least 2 grouse left alive in Pennsylvania!

rschmeider · Post by **rschmeider** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:56 pm

I do good in the Thorn apples and beech-nut in early season....Beech-nut not very plentiful this year..Thorn apples are what i would look for..

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:39 pm

been out every other day and have not flushed 1 grouse here in best area of state,NORTHCENTRAL region.

whiskers pointed 5 woodcock last week, been back to same area, NO WOODCOCK. :roll:
forestry guys told me they are seeing very few grouse this year and very few young broods .

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:35 pm

One flush yesterday... Ran a 5K this morning... will try again monday morning...

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:04 pm

Get a dog.
I hunted dogless for many years and in the high grouse years pre-decline in the Apps there were no issues.
With the Apps. decline and in tougher terrain a dog helps.
Setter Up.

If no dog then I would concentrate on early successional clearcuts of 7-15 years and hunt only the last two hours of the day untill I located some birds and learned a bit about them.
I would consider coves, food sources, road or pipeline edges and especially seeps in this dry year.
I would also understand that grouse can hear.

One may see more birds pre-season or very early season as it is pre-dispersal.
That dynamic changes with time.
Visual road counts are not used with grouse for good reason

works for pheasants, not so good for ruffed grouse.

Not sure where in Pa. you hunt but NCentral is the area.
However, any new area or renewed avocation possesses a learning curve....you are short into that curve and if in a low grouse population area then all the tougher it will be.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:00 pm

SHORTFAT wrote:One flush yesterday... Ran a 5K this morning... will try again monday morning...

grouse are very scare here in clinton county this year.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:02 pm

Mountaineer wrote:Get a dog.
I hunted dogless for many years and in the high grouse years pre-decline in the Apps there were no issues.
With the Apps. decline and in tougher terrain a dog helps.
Setter Up.

If no dog then I would concentrate on early successional clearcuts of 7-15 years and hunt only the last two hours of the day untill I located some birds and learned a bit about them.
I would consider coves, food sources, road or pipeline edges and especially seeps in this dry year.
I would also understand that grouse can hear.

One may see more birds pre-season or very early season as it is pre-dispersal.
That dynamic changes with time.
Visual road counts are not used with grouse for good reason works for pheasants, not so good for ruffed grouse.

Not sure where in Pa. you hunt but NCentral is the area.
However, any new area or renewed avocation possesses a learning curve....you are short into that curve and if in a low grouse population area then all the tougher it will be.

46 years hunting in norhcentral pa.very few grouse this year and woodcock migration was QUICK.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:40 am

Ruffed grouse are down everywhere in the Apps...the point is that regional and local populations have advantages in certain areas for many reasons and so those populations are comparably higher.

The woodcock migration is far from over.

Enjoy your pointing dog/grouse learning curve, JK.
Hopefully, you are not paying a fee to learn.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:31 am

Yeah, grouse are down, but there are still some around... you just have to have some honey holes... it gets frustrating with a young dog that still hasn't figgured them out... you need more contacts and they are tough to find... I can't imagine the woodcock being done yet, but I haven't seen one all week... I will probably work the dog on some stocked ditch chickens this week...

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:33 am

Why don't you work them on some pheasants?

Ezzy

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:35 am

That's a Pennsylvania stocked Ditch Chicken... We will hit them this week hard... Should be fun! But the grouse here seems to be the King of birds for a dog to figgure out... Mine is still struggleing at 3 years old... They just confound her to no end.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:59 pm

my puppy will not see pen pheasant until he is at least 3 yrs old.dont want to ruin his wild bird pointing as i have been told and read in joan baILEYS BOOK AND BENNETS book on raising a wild bird dog.

my local trainer said,DONT GET YOUR PUP NEAR A PLANTED BIRD.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:55 pm

Well, I guess I can see there may be reasons not to put your dog on pen raised birds... and what I know about training pointing dogs, you could fit in a thimble so, I certainly don't claim to know more than a published author... but... I just don't think there are enough wild birds availablein PA to put your dog on often enough for the dog to really learn... JMHO. We have had an absolute blast hunting stocked pheasants... I just think the rewards out weigh the risks... Then again... I have a pet that hunts a few months out of the year, so I may feel differently about it if i was running a high dollar dog in trials or guiding. Good luck and good hunting!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:18 pm

Our dogs have been trained on pen raised pheasants for years. I use pigeons in launchers in the past few years since they are much cheaper. but when we go to the field it is on pheasants. I am yet to see a pup injured or hurt to the extent that is wouldn't get near them again. For a matter of fact, it is much more likely the pup will become more agressive, at least the good one do.

That being said if you have quail or chukar or any other native birds, they are the ideal birds to train on if there are enough so you cab find them when you have the pup out. Just remember you will have better results if you have control of the pup or the bird and sometimes both.

Ezzy

Bigriver05 · Post by **Bigriver05** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:53 am

I have been out 3 times so far this season. I hunted the first day in the Northern tier of PA and I hunted this past Saturday in Central Pa. We ran into a good amount of birds opening day and they were all based around Hemlock trees near young Beech. This past weekend the birds were once again near some young beech and alot of grapes. We did find a brood near some Laurel. Its strange to hear your numbers are bad in Clinton Jim. I hunted 2.5 hours on Saturday and had 7 flushes and this is in non traditonal grouse country. On opening day we had a 2 bird a hour flush rate. The birds are very skittish up north due to the dry conditons. I think this may have changed some now. The woodcock migration did not even start yet so don't worrry about missing that. There alot of birds on the cusp of coming down.

mcclinj · Post by **mcclinj** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:08 am

I'm hunting virtually the same area's as UplandJim WITH a dog and am still having a hard time finding them...in what looks like good cover that should hold birds. These same areas did hold birds over the summer, because I saw them while driving the forest roads. These areas also didn't hold many birds last year (grouse anyway).

Jim and I were supposed to get together and hunt a few areas he's seen birds in with my dog this past weekend, but it didn't work out. I hope we can report some success soon.

Also, for any of the PA hunters that can't afford the Northwind Maps, The PA DCNR lists all the timber harvests and age of the cuts for the state forests here in PA on their website.

Keep after them,

-John

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:37 am

SHORTFAT wrote:Well, I guess I can see there may be reasons not to put your dog on pen raised birds... and what I know about training pointing dogs, you could fit in a thimble so, I certainly don't claim to know more than a published author... but... I just don't think there are enough wild birds availablein PA to put your dog on often enough for the dog to really learn... JMHO. We have had an absolute blast hunting stocked pheasants... I just think the rewards out weigh the risks... Then again... I have a pet that hunts a few months out of the year, so I may feel differently about it if i was running a high dollar dog in trials or guiding. Good luck and good hunting!

i was out yesterday and whiskers pointed 4 woodcock .what a great day. i use 22cal pistol and dont kill birds.
going out on wednesday again.
now, sad there is pheasants in field now. i took chance that maybe he would not find one.
well, HE DID, in fact we found 5 total but whiskers was only on 1 before i put him in crate.

here is what he did,he pointed a pheasant, then pheasant moved, whiskers moved in another 5 ft and pointed,THEN PEN RAISED PHEASANT ran.
guess what whiskers did? he chased the pheasant , not listening 100 yards on ground.pheasant never did flush .

so, not being expert but read two great books on this, NEVER GET A DOG UNDER 3 YEARS OLD ON PEN RAISED BIRDS OR THEY WILL LEARN TO CHASE.

GUESS WHAT, WHISKERS DID CHASE.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:41 am

Bigriver05 wrote:I have been out 3 times so far this season. I hunted the first day in the Northern tier of PA and I hunted this past Saturday in Central Pa. We ran into a good amount of birds opening day and they were all based around Hemlock trees near young Beech. This past weekend the birds were once again near some young beech and alot of grapes. We did find a brood near some Laurel. Its strange to hear your numbers are bad in Clinton Jim. I hunted 2.5 hours on Saturday and had 7 flushes and this is in non traditonal grouse country. On opening day we had a 2 bird a hour flush rate. The birds are very skittish up north due to the dry conditons. I think this may have changed some now. The woodcock migration did not even start yet so don't worrry about missing that. There alot of birds on the cusp of coming down.

SIR, WHAT COUNTY DID YOU FIND THE GROUSE IN?

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:45 am

ezzy333 wrote:Our dogs have been trained on pen raised pheasants for years. I use pigeons in launchers in the past few years since they are much cheaper. but when we go to the field it is on pheasants. I am yet to see a pup injured or hurt to the extent that is wouldn't get near them again. For a matter of fact, it is much more likely the pup will become more agressive, at least the good one do.

That being said if you have quail or chukar or any other native birds, they are the ideal birds to train on if there are enough so you cab find them when you have the pup out. Just remember you will have better results if you have control of the pup or the bird and sometimes both.

Ezzy

not being smart in any way but i could not keep quiet.
we see shy dogs all time because a rooster kicked the h out of pup when they were young.
they will not retrieve a pheasant at all. they will go close and back up and leave.

in my opinion, NEVER GET A YOUNG DOG AROUND A WOUNDED PHEASANT .yes one just barely moving after shot and wings just moving is ok BUT one that still has life in it, nope i seem too many dogs ruined on nasty wounded pheqasant.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:13 am

3 years old? That is ridiculous. If your SM is anything like mine by the time he is a year he is gonna like racoons and Canada Geese MOORE if he gets into it with them. A little pheasant isn't going to put him off birds.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:58 am

Winchey wrote:3 years old? That is ridiculous. If your SM is anything like mine by the time he is a year he is gonna like racoons and Canada Geese MOORE if he gets into it with them. A little pheasant isn't going to put him off birds.

it does not PUT them off birds, its causes a pup to learn to FLUSH/CHASE. :roll: hampers the POINT.
i have friend in philipsburg and his SM flush/chases but he hunts pheasants with him.

joan baileys book and mr bennetts book BOTH say this, STAY AWAY FROM PEN RAISED PHEASANTS LIKE PLAGUE.
until they are at LEAST 2 yeaRS old and know difference between pen raised birds and wild birds.

so, whiskers is only going to see woodcock and grouse for YEARS .
then at 3 years old, yes, we are going to hunt pheasants.

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:33 am

Well they are doing just fine right across the boarder in the Southern Tier I would doubt seriously that the birds know where the state line is.
They out there burn some shoe leather and the leaves are a still on...........dont give up.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:09 pm

JIM K wrote:...it does not PUT them off birds, its causes a pup to learn to FLUSH/CHASE. :roll: hampers the POINT.

Feathers and piffle.
You are generalizing.
If one had a dog catch poorly conditioned training quail and they wrote that quail should never be used is much the same as your mistaken generalities.
It is not the bird species but rather the individual situation trilogy and particulars of dog, bird and handler that can cause a problem....or cure one.
Blaming chase soley on a species is like blaming choke or load for a missed shot.
You do know that both grouse and woodcock can move under a point, don't you?
Granted, a rooster can spur any dog and they look for back doors but the limits you are setting are a mite restricting for young Whiskers.

I also understand this is your first pointing dog.
No book...or trainer living in a traditional Potter mountain fortress, holds trump.
One is best to look widely and pick what works from many sources rather than tie hopes to any one resource...no matter the sales pitch.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:52 am

Yeah, I'm sorry, but I don't see pen raised pheasants as a problem for young dogs. My dog has a tougher time with pinning down Grouse than ditch chickens. To each his own... :roll: On a good note, I have seen 9 grouse in the last two days afield tho!

I hope the Woodcock come through our area this next week...

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:58 am

[I hope the Woodcock come through our area this next week...[/quote]

I hope not, there are still plenty here that I haven't shot yet.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:12 am

SHORTFAT wrote:Yeah, I'm sorry, but I don't see pen raised pheasants as a problem for young dogs. My dog has a tougher time with pinning down Grouse than ditch chickens. To each his own... :roll: On a good note, I have seen 9 grouse in the last two days afield tho! I hope the Woodcock come through our area this next week...

great your seeing grouse. woodcock are hear in my area. they are here 1 day and gone next.i may shoot 1 for whiskers but i am still a little hesitant to do it with 20ga i have but i may take chance before WC leave.
i would say, not expert that woodcock will be gone next week with very cool temps coming in.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:13 am

Winchey wrote:[I hope the Woodcock come through our area this next week...

I hope not, there are still plenty here that I haven't shot yet.[/quote]

you are very lucky to have birds like that.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:19 am

It is a great place to have bird dogs that is for sure, but hardly anyone does. At our coverdog championship a few weeks ago 35 Grouse and 11 Woodcock were moved the first day.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:42 am

Winchey wrote:It is a great place to have bird dogs that is for sure, but hardly anyone does. At our coverdog championship a few weeks ago 35 Grouse and 11 Woodcock were moved the first day.

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:53 am

Don't worry fellas I will take good care of them when they get down here to Louisiana but first I am gonna go up to New York and scare the rest of em south.

setternewbie · Post by **setternewbie** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:14 am

northern cajun wrote:Don't worry fellas I will take good care of them when they get down here to Louisiana but first I am gonna go up to New York and scare the rest of em south.

Don't know about you, but the Woodcock are the only migrants I really want moving South...present company excluded of course!

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:18 am

ha, you folks are hoot.

i just saw pic of woodcock in CAPE MAY,NJ. unreal, there was thousands.

man i would go nuts there

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:52 am

Here is a kind of generic list::
When warm weather or dry weather or windy check the bottoms near water areas, around swampy areas.
If it is snowing windy, etc. check out small short stands of Jack firs, Spruces etc. You better have someone with you then. It is tough getting them to flush in there and tougher to shoot them.
All other times they are looking for food.
Aspen/poplar,
buds from birches, berries etc.
When the berries are gone they eat the leaves of rasberry bushes, also the (tea berry or similar type leaves) They will on occasion eat clover.
they love frost bitten apples and pears.
You will find them in Grape vine thickets.
Look for the young 5 to 15 year old growths of aspen and birch stands.
Look for edges. There are edges that are tote roads, or logging roads, there are edges deep in the forest between stands of poplar and spruces or at the edges of clear cuts. They will venture into the clear cuts at times as well.

When you find groups of bird in an area. Many times most of the birds are young. The older ones are a bit more spread out. I don't mean mile just not all in one area.

As for the woodcock. there have been some migrations, I seem to be getting just few so far, but once Canada has some harder freezes and frost they will be moving through. The males travel together and females together at least that is the way I seem to get into the flights.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:25 am

woodcock are moving out of my area of pa today. i think big storm coming is doing it.
you are right, all woodcock i saw were females this week with long beeks.

Bigriver05 · Post by **Bigriver05** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:09 pm

Jim, I have been hunting in Potter,Tioga and Perry. Going out in Perry tomorrow morning again.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:42 pm

Bigriver05 wrote:Jim, I have been hunting in Potter,Tioga and Perry. Going out in Perry tomorrow morning again.

i hunted up in cross forks,pa [potter ] last week.

Bigriver05 · Post by **Bigriver05** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:35 pm

Hunted Perry County this morning for 3 hours and had 6 flushes. I only got one shot. My older setter got stung in the nose area by some bees and was having major difficulty scenting the birds. I ran my pup after him and he ran strong but had no birds.

kkountz · Post by **kkountz** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:14 am

I have a four year old Brittney Spaniel that holds pheasants (pen raised) like a pro with little training. I live in NE Ohio where the pheasant population has been prettymuch depleated over the years.
My family owns a cabin in Tionesta, PA where we have hunted grouse. There appears to be a significant difference in hunting the dog for grouse.The grouse seems to move on the dog. He points to an area where the bird may have been earlier. Every season I'm hoping the dog will point a grouse and his master will score a bird beginning another additction for the dog.
There are a few honey holes that we have had successful flushes 80% of the time. Needles to say, those flushed grouse are still in the woods mocking me and trusted dog.
I have found that mornings with bright sunlight and frost are the best for flushing the explosive birds. Many times I hear the birds take flight before I actually see the direction of travel.

Ken K and "Patriot"

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:37 am

kkountz wrote:I have a four year old Brittney Spaniel that holds pheasants (pen raised) like a pro with little training. I live in NE Ohio where the pheasant population has been prettymuch depleated over the years.
My family owns a cabin in Tionesta, PA where we have hunted grouse. There appears to be a significant difference in hunting the dog for grouse.The grouse seems to move on the dog. He points to an area where the bird may have been earlier. Every season I'm hoping the dog will point a grouse and his master will score a bird beginning another additction for the dog.
There are a few honey holes that we have had successful flushes 80% of the time. Needles to say, those flushed grouse are still in the woods mocking me and trusted dog.
I have found that mornings with bright sunlight and frost are the best for flushing the explosive birds. Many times I hear the birds take flight before I actually see the direction of travel.

Ken K and "Patriot"

ken, this is new grouse.slick,wily,sneaky,ghost at times.
this is do to hunting pressure,hawks.

i was out yesterday to train whiskers on grouse.we road train to find them.
i found one 75 yds ahead. i backed truck up and slowly got out.
mr. grouse was at edge of road.
i quietly closed door. mr. grouse slowly went over bank.

took whiskers out and walked dirt road up to spot.

HE WAS GONE.
guess what he did not fly away he RAN away.
whiskers went after scent for 50 yds and lost it.

that grouse ran 50 yds and then flew another 100 yds away.

grouse are running more and more .

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:57 am

Now, let me get this straight.
To train Whiskers, you drive roads looking for a ruffed grouse, you find one roadside, then you stop the truck, unload Whiskers and sundry, shut the door quietly, walk up and hope for a bird to train the pup on?
And you are surprised that the ruffed grouse is often not waiting for you? They get GONE?
First, the old roadsluicer rule is to never turn off the truck....hope that helps.
Second, your post just explained a whole lot of your comments re the ruffed grouse and it's hunting...or not finding.

I do think that grouse and woodcock especially, may move more under certain conditions....often dog dependent.
Of course, grouse always did run and stopped based upon a cover change, etc....I would be more inclined to believe hunter pressure and non-hunter pressure, Ie deerhunters, et al in the woods more often these days would play a greater role in making grouse jumpy or runny, than the few hawks which target grouse.....that is, if I wanted to search for timewasters re the ruffed grouse.

Have a good remainder of the season.

You made my day.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:25 am

i trained many of my labs as pups this way on grouse.i had only labs that hunt grouse too and are very good at it.
you are right on most,YES DONT TURN ENGINE OFF,I MADE A BOO BOO THERE YESTERDAY.

you forgot WIND and hawks really are making grouse spooky.hawks are now flying roads in mornings to kill grouse.

did you know grouse are getting their gravel in dark of morning do to HAWKS?

until a pup knows what grouse is, THIS IS BEST WAY TO GET HIM/HER on wild

birds.
there just is not enough birds to train on with pup under year old.
now, after year old and pup being in woods ,I DONT DO THE PUP TRAINING ALONG DIRT ROADS ANYMORE.

i am glad i made your day.

old school hunting and 46 yrs at it.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:49 am

JIM K wrote:...i am glad i made your day. old school hunting and 46 yrs at it.

Thanks again....Since 1964 myownself.....but this is your first pointing dog I believe.

Lots of things, those "conditions" I mentioned

make a ruffed grouse less than predictable( I can't bring myself to say ...spooky

)....hawks being small taters, comparably.
Hawks do play their spoiler role as a predator should but come now, a bit of thought is best.

Uh, you just posted that you road-trained Whiskers....yesterday

....not sure which of your posts to believe now.
It appears that you still are training Whiskers by finding road birds.

Hey, if it is your procedure....you simply are stacking the odds against your pup, to me....as well as doing the ruffed grouse no favors.

Labs do make great grouse dogs....some fellas in Michigan have perfected the practice.
Like most any scattergun pointed correctly will kill a gamebird just fine, most any birddog can work a treat as well.
All depends upon what one likes to look at in the woods and at home.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:51 am

I've done that with young pups as well. Generally just the road birds I see when going to a cover. Once the dog is introduced to birds it is pretty much useless.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:03 pm

Yes, not many have failed to allow any pup a sniff of opportunity if presented ubder the right conditions.

Can make us feel as good as the pup appears to like it.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:27 pm

Winchey wrote:I've done that with young pups as well. Generally just the road birds I see when going to a cover. Once the dog is introduced to birds it is pretty much useless.

we agree. only thing DIFFERENT I AM seeing is grouse in roads at 6 am in dark feeding on gravel thing.
that is something i never saw in 46 yrs hunting grouse here in pa and i feel its do to hawks.

nice thing about doing this with pup is brush is lower and less chance of rattler and you can control somewhat where he goes etc.

get on a lot more wild birds in a morning than you could in woods walking.
to me, IT HAS WORKED GREAT FOR PUPPY TO LEARN WILD BIRDS.

but ,we all have opinions

as for hunting, i was out tuesday/thursday.YES, I AM TIRED,CANT TAKE 2 DAYS IN ROW . :roll:

if anyone would like to go out with whiskers and me ,drop me PM.