Grouse hunters, are tracking collars worth it?

[Thornapple]

I have a question for you grouse hunters. I use an e-collar (not while hunting) with a stationary beeping sound on point. It also has a locator sound. My question is this. After many years of loosing a dog in the heavy thick coverts that is on point and trying to locate the beeping sound while on point I frequently am late to the point. This is a combination of age (71 years old) and I will only admit to y'all - hearing (I can hear just fine dear!)! It is also a function of a dog that finds a lot of birds. I have been considering the new Garmin Alpha system and the Sportdog Trek, but I am not sure what is appropriate if at all? Let's first assume cost is not an issue here. If the dogs are not big running dogs, but even at 100 feet in the Minnesota or Michigan north woods they can be lost and out of sight (or hearing in the thick conifers and brush) does anyone have experience or an opinion (a bird hunter without an opinion????) on which of the two or any are suitable?
The Garmin Alpha I have been told is more suitable for big running dogs in open territory, and the topo map that comes with it while accurate is more of an overlay of terrain than close in - 100 to 200 feet. The SportdogTrek has no topo but gives location, distance, and movement.
So, given this what do you suggest? That is besides sitting in a rocking chair, smoke my cigar with bourbon and branch in hand, and reminisce about the "ole days"!
Any takers?

[Winchey]

I am not sure if you were joking about being deaf or not. If you are half deaf go to an audiologist and get hearing aids. The audiologist will even be able to tune the hearing aids to the tone of your bell and beeper. I have an astro and it works just fine, but so long the dog is in beeper range I could get to a point quicker following the beep than the arrow.

[Ruffshooter]

Question of ignorance:
How are hearing aids with guns? In other words can you make your ears even worse?

I have often wondered about the GPS in tight cover with a canopy over head. Heard all different opinions. It is what keeps me from buying a Garmin or sportek. I know my GPS has a hard time in the spruces and I know the GPS's are distracting for me.

[Mountaineer]

Re hearing aids.
The ones designed for shooting cut off a scattergun's blast...think E.A.R. model.
My problem with them tho is they increase all noise...wind, walking in dry leaves, on and on.
It may well be an individual deal but....they were not for me.

Many posts here about this subject of Astro/Alpha.
Dog range is irrelevant.
I always ran a point-only beeper with a bell.
Now, an Astro with a low-toned bell for woods birds.
A beeper is quicker and simpler to the point....just is and always will be.
My combo works for me but I can pretty much hear the bell and only look at the Astro on occassion and for general principles.
Topo overlay means nothing to me....I would prefer only distance, compass direction and a beep(much louder than now) indicating point but that is not to be on the Astro.
The Alpha likely eats batterys a bit more than the Astro and I prefer a stand alone e-collar for the rare times I use one.....fewer eggs in one basket.
Signal from any unit will be lost in the woods at times....hunting in the Apps. and U.P. for me.
Never has the signal loss been for long or made a difference.....much ado about little.
Units do need to be updated to prevent some signal issues.
The Astro's value exists well past hunting , for me....and is worth the cartage given my particulars.

SportDog may be fine....I will never know.
Do that math.

I am only 60 but were I to have 71 years of experience...I would continue to use a point-only beeper and use the saved lucre to buy a good briar and some Jameson or Michael Collins.
The change-over would not be worth a further bent tailgate.
Who wants to kill every ruffed grouse?
The only fly to change my mind would be totally unrelated to locating a birddog on point and be directly related to the needs any individual dog brings....or a fear of traps in the area.

[djloder]

I love my Garmin for grouse hunting more than any other hunting I do. The beeper I have seems to scare off the "smart" grouse. I love when I hear the little beep on my hip and I go and find him on point. I also like to know when he changes directions on me so I can go his same direction.

[Winchey]

A friend of mine got the Alpha. For hunting and training on wild birds he believes it to be the cats "bleep". Said battery lasts longer than astro. Also said he still preffers the pro-500 for yard training.

[Dan Buchman]

I use the Sportdog Tek and a beeper collar and really like it for grouse. I used to use a bell and a beeper collar with the collar set for point only but I had the bell plug with snow to many times or had the dogs working out to far to hear the bell so I switched to the Tek. I really like being able to keep track of the dogs without having to listen for a sound (beep or bell) which a lot of times is hard to hear due to conditions in the woods, dry leaves, crunchy snow, wind. I still like the beeper collar to find the dog on point because I don’t have to be looking at the Tek to see where the dog is and can be concentrating on the woods ahead as I use the sound of the beeper to locate the dog. If the birds are spooky I will use the Tek only but it does take longer to locate the dog so there are tradeoffs. I also found that since I started using the Tek I rarely use my whistle which to me is a big plus.

[Ms. Cage]

We like the the beeper over the garmin.

[Winchey]

Question of ignorance:
How are hearing aids with guns? In other words can you make your ears even worse?

I have often wondered about the GPS in tight cover with a canopy over head. Heard all different opinions. It is what keeps me from buying a Garmin or sportek. I know my GPS has a hard time in the spruces and I know the GPS's are distracting for me.

All the coverdog guys in Maine and NB have them. They work just fine. Generally the only time they loose contact is when the dial changes from yards to miles, then the signal will come in and out at times.

I don't wear hearing aids, older gentlemen I know from trials does, he is quite an ambassodor for them. Gun doesn't seem to bother him, must be the frequency.

[rinker]

I use a bell and a Garmin Astro. I like the bell so I can tell what the dog is generally doing without having to look down. When the dog points I take a quick look at the astro and it tells me exactly which direction the dog is and how many yards. I will occasionally look back down if it is a long walk to the point. I am amazed at how often I get within 10 to 15 yards of the pointing dog and still can't see him. I will often get close, flush the bird, and shoot before I actually see the dog.

The Garmin also makes me feel a lot more comfortable knowing that I can easely find the truck at any time.

[Wyobio]

I have the Garmin Alpha and beeper collars. I find the beeper is easier to use--you do not have to refocus your attention on the GPS unit--you just go toward the sound. GPS does offer peace of mind however, but It is not very good about direction when the dog is close by (<100 yards) and the compass arrow will swing wildly back and forth when you try to find the location of the dog.

If I had to do it again I am not sure I would spend the $800 for the Alpha. However, I do use it as my GPS with topo maps for all my hunting now, including elk and deer in wilderness/forest.....

[ymepointer]

I have started using a tracker system. It really works well and allows me to quickly find my pointer in heavy cover. Ithink. You can find one pretty cheap these days.

[rschmeider]

IM0...The garmin is #1 for saftey..When i hear a tri-axel/log truck... i always want to know where my dog at.

[MN Bonasa]

Grouse hunters, are tracking collars worth it?

One word "Absolutely".


I used the Astro here in Minnesota this grouse season and love having the piece of mind knowing where she is at all times. I still use a bell to get that immediate information on where she is. During those windy days the bell goes out of ear shot pretty quick so its nice to have the GPS just to keep track. Other features I enjoy are the ability to see how many miles the dog logged for the day and typically she would cover about 10 miles a day in the grouse woods. Also you can upload that info to google earth and see what areas you hunted that day and areas maybe you missed and want to go back to those spots. Not to mention when you download the ariel imagery and use it, it really lets a guy do some cross country bush crashing without the fear of getting lost, finding new coverts, etc. Carry extra batteries. I
never had a problem with obtaining GPS signals here, but MN is pretty flat for the most part. If money is no object get the ASTRO or ALPHA learn how to use it and you will love it. I enjoy hunting alot more when I don't have to constantly keep track of where the dog is located. I also like the fact that when you read the screen and it says your pup is 120 yds away and moving away from you, then you can make that instant adjustment to call em back to you.

[Thornapple]

MN Bonasa,
I appreciate your reply in many ways. I have been mulling over the expense of the Alpha or Sportdog's version, but I think I will go with the Alpha on your recommendation. It is not the e-collar (I use a Dogtra for that), but just knowing where the dog is that will give me comfort. You are right, I have had a bell and beeper (sportdog) on my dog and in the thick woods it muffles the sound tremendously. In fact most folks are astonished as to how much leaves, pine trees, bushes, etc. will deaden this sound. I particularly appreciate that you are writing about Minnesota as this is one of the areas I hunt and you ability to recieve a signal for your GPS is obviously important. I tried my Oregon Garmin out this fall before the leaves fell and was always able to pick up a signal. Yes, they are expensive. But I recall two years ago coming back to the hotel in Grand Rapids and a very well known clay shooter lost his dog. It was never found. Again a fellow NAVHDA member from Maryland lost his GSHP in Wisoconsin and it was only a stroke of luck he found it wandering a logging road, this after two days lost!
Thanks again, Thornapple

[Ruffshooter]

As far as loosing signal. Why is it when I had a Rhino and now my etrex they loose signal often and you have to find the opening?> Why are the astros different?

I use the beeper only and a bell now. I have pretty good luck. I guess, I just do not like gadgets. Maybe that is why I resist so much. It is nice to just grab a gun couple dogs couple beepers and vest and go. To get suited up like a borg I quess just is not for me the more I think on it.

Thanks for the replies on the garmins and hearing aides.

[Thornapple]

Ruffshooter,
Yes I understand how you like to hunt with your dogs. I have a bunch of old timer (lord, I can not believe I just wrote that, but I guess it is true!) pals in New England that have been hunting birds (like the South calls quail "birds", the same is true with the older Woodchucks of New England that hunt partridge and call them "birds" as well - but I digress), Woodchuck pals who grew up poor and couild not afford dogs and hunt without them, or they refuse to deal with any electronic device on a dog. In fact these Woodchucks that hunt partridge or timberdoodles without a dog, can bring almost as many birds home as those that have them. All of them claim they can sense them, which I believe is a bunch of hogwash, but if it makes them happy and have fun who am I to question their sensory hunting skills?
Thornapple

[crappieguy]

I hunt the canadian shield swamps, conifer belts and tag alders, etc where the sound of a bell gets lost very quickly...I use a Dogtra and a Lovett...I like the Lovett except that every time that we get back in the vehicle the "bleep" thing goes on hawk squeal .....basically it's a pain to turn on/off....but I do like it.. The Dogtra is great...I don't use a gps type, as she never ranges more than 150 yds out ...which works for me as I'm 68. So although I'd prefer to us a bell it's not practicable and I still have my hearing except when my wife wants something.
I can always hear the beeper collar and know when she goes on point...that refers to both collars....the levett is a couple - 300 dollars less expensive .

[Thornapple]

Crappieguy,
Same darn thing happened to me a week ago. I forgot to turn off the beeper and then this loud hawk screech reverberated throughout the car. Of course turning it off was another matter as I was then on a highway, had to pull over, get out and open the rear of the SUV. I should have known better!
Thornapple

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

If you don't want the e-collar portion than maybe you should just pick up a used Astro for half the price. I've played with all 3 and if you like information the Garmin is the way to go but if you have trouble turning your computer on then the Sportdog might be better. I love downloading the hunt to a computer and noting where and how many finds we had. My memory isn't what it used to be and if you hunt alot of grounds you can log them in and go straight to the most productive areas. But the best thing about GPS collars is the insurance they provide for both you and the dog. It will also alert you when the dog goes on point so there's no reason to look for him until he's on point. Just FYI if it tells you he has something treed he's probably just pooping.

[Thornapple]

Brazosvalleyvizslas,
It seems Crappieguy and I hunt the same type of terrain. However I am coming to the realization that for all the time cost of birds, training, etc. I put in on my pals the cost of a GPS on them is worth it. I am not in favor of bells and this is simply one stemming from my youth of some 66 years ago. When I would go out walking behind my Dad or Grandfather hunting at 5 years old they insisted that long before I get a dog I learn to use my senses. I would do that first just to see if I could sneak up on birds, and later with my Red Ryder BB gun. It did work so well that I continued hunting this way until I got my first bid dog well into my twenties. Learning to listen, hear, and even smell the surroundings while hunting without any distraction is a wonderful experience. In fact if any of you reading this try it for a few hours you will find it a very calming influence on your hunting; it might even slow you down which always a good thing. Try it first out of season and see what you experience.

Both my dad and granddad were farmers and had very old fashioned ways of looking at things. Whether they were old in their ways or contemporary, they considered man was given instincts to use, "So use them by golly," was their constant mantra to me!

In fact my granddad showed me how to walk ten steps and count to ten, listen carefully, watch, then move forward. It slows you down tremendously. You don't cover much ground, but I can assure you it will push up birds (partridge and timberdoodles in particular). "Birds would rather hide and not fly if they can. If they cannot hear you for the time you are holding, they get nervous and flush," is what was repeated to me over and over again by them and all the local Vermont farm neighbors and friends in our little town. Remember, this was in the early 1950s, farm country, very rural, and no one had a good hunting dog except those occasional flatlanders coming up from New York City on rare occasions. This technique of hunting was taught to him by his father and his before that. I suppose it went back to early settler days of my family when hunting was clearly for survival, and not a sport.

So bells are not appreciated much as it destroys the sound of the day and it reminds me of the loud City noise I try to leave behind for a day or two. The peace of the woods is very calming for me. Have any of you experience the same? That created a challenge of course, having dogs and finding them on point in the same cover that Crappyguy and I find us in. The locater on-point collar devices by Tritronics, Sportdog, Dogtra, and others I have all used, at one time or another, and still do, but not happily. Then there is the peace of mind knowing where your dog is in this thick cover. This maybe my age showing!

My dog is also a close in working dog, but there have been occasions when hunting the Boundary Waters of Minnesota, the UP of Michigan that I come across fresh wolf scat and want to make sure I know where my dogs are. Or in northern New England there are "Coy dogs". These are a cross of wild domestic dogs and coyotes that travel in packs seeking deer or dogs. They come out normally in the late afternoon and knowing where your dog is during this time of day is essential. Bells up there as many of you know are called dinner bells, and wolves, coyotes or coy dogs will track you out of sight. A dog out of sight (which is very easy in these woods) is a dog vulnerable, so a GPS is comforting and necessary. Ask Andy Duffy (sporting clay fame) if he would like to have had one on his borrowed dog that got lost and never returned in Minnesota a couple of years ago.
I guess all this means I am getting old and more careful than I used to be, but if that is what it takes to make an old man happy……......!
Thornapple

[Mountaineer]

Brazosvalleyvizslas,
It seems Crappieguy and I hunt the same type of terrain. However I am coming to the realization that for all the time cost of birds, training, etc. I put in on my pals the cost of a GPS on them is worth it. I am not in favor of bells and this is simply one stemming from my youth of some 66 years ago. When I would go out walking behind my Dad or Grandfather hunting at 5 years old they insisted that long before I get a dog I learn to use my senses. I would do that first just to see if I could sneak up on birds, and later with my Red Ryder BB gun. It did work so well that I continued hunting this way until I got my first bid dog well into my twenties. Learning to listen, hear, and even smell the surroundings while hunting without any distraction is a wonderful experience. In fact if any of you reading this try it for a few hours you will find it a very calming influence on your hunting; it might even slow you down which always a good thing. Try it first out of season and see what you experience.

Both my dad and granddad were farmers and had very old fashioned ways of looking at things. Whether they were old in their ways or contemporary, they considered man was given instincts to use, "So use them by golly," was their constant mantra to me!

In fact my granddad showed me how to walk ten steps and count to ten, listen carefully, watch, then move forward. It slows you down tremendously. You don't cover much ground, but I can assure you it will push up birds (partridge and timberdoodles in particular). "Birds would rather hide and not fly if they can. If they cannot hear you for the time you are holding, they get nervous and flush," is what was repeated to me over and over again by them and all the local Vermont farm neighbors and friends in our little town. Remember, this was in the early 1950s, farm country, very rural, and no one had a good hunting dog except those occasional flatlanders coming up from New York City on rare occasions. This technique of hunting was taught to him by his father and his before that. I suppose it went back to early settler days of my family when hunting was clearly for survival, and not a sport.

So bells are not appreciated much as it destroys the sound of the day and it reminds me of the loud City noise I try to leave behind for a day or two. The peace of the woods is very calming for me. Have any of you experience the same? That created a challenge of course, having dogs and finding them on point in the same cover that Crappyguy and I find us in. The locater on-point collar devices by Tritronics, Sportdog, Dogtra, and others I have all used, at one time or another, and still do, but not happily. Then there is the peace of mind knowing where your dog is in this thick cover. This maybe my age showing!

My dog is also a close in working dog, but there have been occasions when hunting the Boundary Waters of Minnesota, the UP of Michigan that I come across fresh wolf scat and want to make sure I know where my dogs are. Or in northern New England there are "Coy dogs". These are a cross of wild domestic dogs and coyotes that travel in packs seeking deer or dogs. They come out normally in the late afternoon and knowing where your dog is during this time of day is essential. Bells up there as many of you know are called dinner bells, and wolves, coyotes or coy dogs will track you out of sight. A dog out of sight (which is very easy in these woods) is a dog vulnerable, so a GPS is comforting and necessary. Ask Andy Duffy (sporting clay fame) if he would like to have had one on his borrowed dog that got lost and never returned in Minnesota a couple of years ago.
I guess all this means I am getting old and more careful than I used to be, but if that is what it takes to make an old man happy……......!
Thornapple

Sometimes, you just have to grin.

[Thornapple]

A big grin happens when you have had a good day in the woods, your dogs did a great job finding birds, they and you are tired, you have a nice Robusto, and three fingers of Jack and branch.
Thornapple

[Mountaineer]

More like a tamping of Old Dublin and some amount of Redbreast, w/o the intrusion of contaminants, regardless of any measure but being there.

[Thornapple]

Now y'uve got it! There is nuth'n finer, well all most, but I am too old for that anyway! When Mr. Evans was asked what were some of his favorite memories, he said, "All just fading mermories these days." He forgot more than I will ever know, god bless his soul and the men like them!
Thornapple

[MN Bonasa]

But I recall two years ago coming back to the hotel in Grand Rapids and a very well known clay shooter lost his dog. It was never found. Again a fellow NAVHDA member from Maryland lost his GSHP in Wisoconsin and it was only a stroke of luck he found it wandering a logging road, this after two days lost!

Ya who wants to go thru the hassel of that. I had a couple of incidents the year prior losing contact with the pup for a while. Let me say not to fun.
Thats why this last spring I got the Astro and haven't been more happier. I really like the data that you can compile over the course of the season, with the piece of mind. I can understand some the old timers not needing the new technology, but I bet there are more than a few hunters out there that would have loved to have had this technology in their hands back in the day when their dog got lost to be never found.

[Thornapple]

Mn Bonasa,
I not sure about "Old Timers" resisting new technology, but I am curious. You write you purchased the Garmin Astro. I also note your sign in name which I would assume means you are a partridge hunter (what we New Englander's still call grouse) that hunts your home state. As I also enjoy hunting the Boundary Waters chasing partridge and timberdoodles of your beautiful state. So I am wondering why did you purchase the Astro versus the Alpha? From what I have been reading the Alpha does not give always accurate readings, particularly for close in work. Although I have a Garmin Oregon for hiking and it works fine, but it does work very close in as I would like for a dog in thick cover nearby by, but out of sight. As you and I know you can have a dog on point no more than 30 feet away and be invisble, or working too far out and you need to reign it in! So my question is how do you find the Alpha in the thick woods of Minnesota, either close in or at a distance?
I am now leaning towards a Dogtra 2500 due to its ability to work with a very wide range of stimulation levels that can be quickly adjusted on the fly (mostly for training and here on the farm), then the combined reciever - beeper feature versus it being separate as in Sportdog or Tritronics.

[Thornapple]

MN Bonasa,
I meant how do you find the Astra that you purchased? Just as importantly where do you use it, under what conditions, and why did you buy this model of Garmn's?
Thanks, Thornapple

[MN Bonasa]

I meant how do you find the Astra that you purchased? Just as importantly where do you use it, under what conditions, and why did you buy this model of Garmn's?Thanks, Thornapple

Thornapple,

I purchased the Astro before the Alpha was available for sale. I bought in the spring and I think the Alpha came out this last fall sometime. But thats ok for me. since I don't need a GPS unit all the time on the dog when around home not hunting. I will continue to use the regular e-collar in conjuction with the Astro and a bell or maybe start using a beeper next fall and purchase the tri-tronics e-collar / beeper combo unit.
I use my Astro everywhere and for every situation while hunting. I do not know of any issues that the alpa has had in its initial release. Ihows where the pup is, at long dist. or short. It does have a delay from the collar to the hand held unit of about 4 seconds or so.

also enjoy hunting the Boundary Waters chasing partridge and timberdoodles of your beautiful state.

I haven't hunted around Ely for about 25 years, but have been meaning to get back up there. I usually hunt ruffies around the north central part of the state with good succcess. This year was a down year though as compared to the last couple years.

[Thornapple]

Mn Bonasa,

Thanks for writing back. I am going to see how this fall season is with the dog's performance in the back country up your way, where I now do most of my bird hunting. The purchase of the Dogtra as I mentioned is as much about location identification (the locater beeper) as it is the ability to shift "gears" quickly on intensity. Particularly for two different experienced dogs working simultaneoulsly. Albeit the puppy should be ready by fall for steady to wing, shot, and retrieve.
I will still keep reviewing both Garmin collars to see how other "ruff" hunters who have purchased them seem to respond to their performance.
Thanks again, Thornapple

[DJWorm]

I have a Swiss bell, Tritronics Upland EXP e-collar with the G3 Upland Beeper, and the latest Garmin Astro 320 GPS with topo; NOT the ALPHA. I would have bought the Alpha but could not wait. I can control the beeper with the e-collar remote: turn Off/On. The Beeper has 6 modes and you can run it silent with a POINT beep or Hawk scream.

I no longer use the beeper at all.
1. I feel it is too noisy and may scare the birds.
2. A constant beeper may in fact be a "dinner bell" to wolves or coyotes in the extreme northern woods.
3. I ran the beeper silent but then would turn it on to LOCATE....the dog soon associated this with a "COME" command.
so I found it more detrimental in possibly turning it on when he was trailing a bird just before point or calling him off a bird.

I started using the GPS in unfamilair woods but now use it exclusively

I now use the bell and the Garmin in the early season in thick leafy heavy cover.
In the later season as the leaves fall and the birds become more wary I run only the GPS.

The Garmin Astro 320 GPS has these features as I suppose the Alpha also incorporates:
1. "Truck" finder. Very useful in unfamiliar terrain.
2. Have found the topo overlay useful in scouting and unfamiliar terrain.
3. your track (can be turned off)
4. dog track (can be turned off)
5. can track multiple dogs.
6. your position
7. dog(s) position
6. digital distance to dog, his direction of travel etc.
7. Dog "ON POINT" alarm beep and/or vibrate
8. ability to mark coveys
9. store and view previous hunts
10. You know exactly where your dog is at all times, how far he is from you and what he is doing