What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

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Thornapple
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What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Thornapple » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:45 am

I selected this topic as I am in the process of booking guides and grouse hunting trips. Remember, this is grouse hunting not sharptail or Dakotoa pheasant hunting I am addressing. A couple of guides specifically mentioned they will not guide with more than one dog at a time. I throw this question out to this quorum as I had mentioned to them that I have an older experienced and well trained grouse dog and a puppy that will be 18 months old by this fall that I will bring with me. Currently the puppy is in the process of weekly getting on lots of birds (pheasants) to get it excited and pointed its first this last Sunday. His training for NAVHDA NA will begin and be tested on this spring and then continued training through the summer. So both dogs will have worked and backed together and the puppy will have had some semblance of competency by this fall. But the question remains, why is it in your opinion guides only want no more than one dog at a time in the coverts while guiding? Other guides I have used do not seem to mind. So I am curious as to what you think.
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Last edited by Thornapple on Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:16 am

I think I would never hire any upland bird guide....regardless of dog number allowed.
Especially for ruffed grouse, if I had an experienced ruffed grouse dog in the truck.....can't see the requirement of one.

I think I would never, or seldom, run two dogs together at ruffed grouse....let alone more. Much as I would never skirmish line a grouse woods.
I see no great advantage to it; I see confusion and chances for dogs to slip and me miss a slip; I see too much activity in the woods seldom conducive to most hunting and also health of the ruffed grouse and, I see too many fronts for action as but a start.
I might see whacking ruffed grouse as a sad Job #1.

I think I would allow a pup to try and fail and succeed on his own while dependent all the while upon the cover and the bird numbers...in other words, for a pup most clearly, I would strive to help him fulfill his genetics with a bit more control than a crowd brings.

As for the guide's decision...I am left to assume that, in the past, he has guided hunters hunting ruffed grouse with more than one dog... his or theirs. :idea:

I finally think I see that 2 + 2 does not equal 4.
And, I find that decidely odd.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by DogNewbie » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:08 am

Mountaineer wrote:I think I would never hire any upland bird guide....regardless of dog number allowed.
Especially for ruffed grouse, if I had an experienced ruffed grouse dog in the truck.....can't see the requirement of one.

I think I would never, or seldom, run two dogs together at ruffed grouse....let alone more. Much as I would never skirmish line a grouse woods.
I see no great advantage to it; I see confusion and chances for dogs to slip and me miss a slip; I see too much activity in the woods seldom conducive to most hunting and also health of the ruffed grouse and, I see too many fronts for action as but a start.
I might see whacking ruffed grouse as a sad Job #1.

I think I would allow a pup to try and fail and succeed on his own while dependent all the while upon the cover and the bird numbers...in other words, for a pup most clearly, I would strive to help him fulfill his genetics with a bit more control than a crowd brings.

As for the guide's decision...I am left to assume that, in the past, he has guided hunters hunting ruffed grouse with more than one dog... his or theirs. :idea:

I finally think I see that 2 + 2 does not equal 4.
And, I find that decidely odd.
I agree. Your dogs are better than any guide you can hire IMO. As long as you know where to find birds. As for the guides not wanting to run multiple dogs....as a former fishing guide, the good guides let the customer do whatever they like. If you want to run both dog, tell the guide that you're going to do that, and if they refuse let him/her know that they wont be receiving your business. Personally, I think it can be very beneficial for a young pup to work on its own. I found that my pup was more distracted by the older dog on the ground and spent most his time trying to follow and play. But by himself, he explored the woods and began to find birds on his own.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Neil » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:11 pm

With the Garmin you can run 2 or more dogs, provided you have at least 6 dogs, 2 or 3 hours is all they can take without pacing themselves, and then not more than 2 days in a row.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Winchey » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:04 pm

I don't know about there being no use for a guide. I would probably never get a guided grouse and woodcock hunt since there is plenty here, but if I was out of my element and had the cash I will gladly hunt someone elses best covers rather than waste time scouting.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Thornapple » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:43 am

Winchy, BINGO!
Obtaining a guide was not the question, but you quickly addressed why many use guides. Simply some of us have to travel too far for good cover, and when we get there we do not have a lot of time to scout. I know cover as well as anyone. Especially growing up in rural Vermont in the late 1940s and early 50s as kid. I look at the ROI of time and money spent getting to a destination as the criteria, at least for me. Thanks for the reply.

So the question still remains for all , "What are the advantages or dissadvantages of one or two dogs in the thick coverts for a grouse hunter". This is not a test, I am just curious what those experienced grouse hunters have to say. After 62 years of hunting partridge for almost every year across the Country (except a side trip to Southeast Asia for a couple of years), I have learned I know far less now than before. So your wisdom is appreciated.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:25 am

Lots of folks spend a goodly bit of time on the Superslab, especially if their grouse have gone or pheasants never were much to speak of.
Investment return and cash flow charts, while often colorful and trendy, also do not always tell the truest tale with profit discovered well past a guide's bootheels or a scattergun's front bead.
However, choice is a wonderful thing and there are times when personal constraints dictate personal actions...all based upon what we value, of course.

Part of the responses dealt with the young pup....best to never discount that factor re the subject at hand.

But:
1) A guide may not want several dogs becuase he has been put in that experience before.....and it has ended badly. :idea:
I would not choose a guide by the dog numbers he allows but rather by his apparent knowledge for which I would be paying and, to a degree, the section of country involved....each to their own though.
2) Certain seasons and certain sections of the ruffed grouse range can find grouse negatively affected by a lot of dogs/et al, imo. The general area of the country and time you plan to hunt was not mentioned and grouse are not equally blessed with blessings across their wide range....it can make a difference.
3) Not all dogs perform beautifully as a soccer team under field conditions and issues can erupt or slips be reenforced....I have found that less than desirable.
4) Ruffed grouse trump ruffed grouse hunters.

The advantage of one dog could be effectiveness, simplicity and appreciation....all in good measure.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Mike13w » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:04 am

I tend to you use my Llewellin and English setters in tandem in the grouse woods. I will nearly always use two dog's here in the mountains of Kentucky, as the birds as sparse and the terrain exhausting.

While other's circumstances may differ, I like to cover as much ground as possible when hunting near home, as fast as I can. With the declining number of birds I have to push myself to move up and down the mountains if I'm to have any chance at finding a decent number of birds. I like my dogs to hunt wider here as opposed to thicker places with plentiful birds, such as up north. It's amazing to watch every year as they seem to have figured out while hunting in KY, they're gonna have to hunt wider and faster, but in Wisconsin and Michigan they know to slow down and reel it in and as I fight through the thickets.

I've also never had a problem with bumping or busting birds. The Llewellin backs perfectly and has learned to stop everything if she hears a dogs e-collar make the on point sound. This can be a little frustrating though, as sometimes another dog is just stoping to take a whiz. :D

Like previously stated I would imagine the guide in question has had a negative experience with multiple dogs. Also, do you know if he plans to bring a gun dog? While I have never used a guide in the grouse woods, I have seen pheasant guides bring their own dog(s). As far as the ecological aspect goes, I won't pretend to know much there. I suppose multiple dogs could propose more strains on the birds and the environment, I don't necessarily see that as a reason to keep a good dog out of the woods.

Couldn't imagine any hunting season would be during a time when you have hatchlings on the ground or eggs in a nest? Four dogs I could see proposing certain issues, but how much harm could one little extra setter do? Maybe a topic for another day, but would anyone care to enlighten me? I, like most, strive to be a conservationist above all else. Would two dogs really make a substantially more negative impact?

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:13 pm

Mike13w wrote:...As far as the ecological aspect goes, I won't pretend to know much there. I suppose multiple dogs could propose more strains on the birds and the environment, I don't necessarily see that as a reason to keep a good dog out of the woods. ... Four dogs I could see proposing certain issues, but how much harm could one little extra setter do? Maybe a topic for another day, but would anyone care to enlighten me? I, like most, strive to be a conservationist above all else. Would two dogs really make a substantially more negative impact?
2 dogs?...not really.
But since the time of year was not mentioned, or the locale.....I would rather err on a cautious side.
But, I am one who believes that late season hunting in some areas as being a very bad idea and additive to the decline....late being February, maybe January, if the grouse are very low on that decline curve.
Simply moving ruffed grouse at the wrong time can open them to greater predation and some folks follow up flushes waaay too many times....to me.
One does not have to shoot a ruffed grouse to kill it.
The idea of additivity tho falters when location brings snow or terrain or lack of access or better winter foods into the mix and fails completely if one looks at additivity based soley on the early season or a healthy and vialble population of birds with grouse sinks.
Grouse hunting is a fit and think deal these days...or should be.
One size does not in any way fit all.

I am a believer in wide-er ranging grouse dogs in the Apps as well....populations render that a wise idea.
Good dogs do indeed hunt the cover and do not always stretch a horizon.
Conditions have always appeared to be the largest determiner of "bumped" birds....as well as any of us or our dogs can have a bad day.
Perfection is highly overrated in the big picture.

The question originally dealt with a guide and a supposed experienced grouse dog and a pup...with maybe the guide's dog.(Not sure I would want a guide that did not have a dog. :idea:)
That stew can, just can, be a receipt, as My Father used to say, for trouble all day long.
Far be it for me to say a fella and his two dogs should not go hunting.....my answer was meant to be a bit more directed than that and consider beyond what any hunter wants.
Many will differ.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by millerms06 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:52 pm

Thornapple wrote: Currently the puppy is in the process of weekly getting on lots of birds (pheasants) to get it excited and pointed its first this last Sunday. His training for NAVHDA NA will begin and be tested on this spring and then continued training through the summer. So both dogs will have worked and backed together and the puppy will have had some semblance of competency by this fall.
Not knowing your training plans outside of the NAVHDA NA test, wouldn't it be a wiser and more challenging thing for the pup to work on its own? If I was guiding, knew someone had a puppy at that age that wanted to get some hunt time in, I would let the pup run solo so he works birds and potentially does not learn to follow another dog to find birds. If the guide does his job, which is to make a hunt enjoyable for his clients, wouldn't that be a prime opportunity for your pup to grow exponentially? The trouble is people have different expectations of what an enjoyable hunt actually is. If it was me in your shoes, I would talk with the guide further on maybe rotating dogs out and letting him know what your hunting expectations are?

Just a thought...

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Thornapple » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:59 pm

Mat, thanks.
The issue is not whether the 18 month old hunts alone(the age of the puppy when we next hunt grouse this coming fall); it is whether I take two dogs or one into the woods and heavy grouse coverts. I agree with you that getting a puppy on birds as early as possible always is beneficial. In fact we are doing that now on a weekly basis with released pheasants; then on into the spring and summer with chucker, quail, ducks (for his water work), and pigeons as training progresses. So he should have some competency by hunting season.
My question dealt with the merits of taking two dogs while hunting versus one when hunting alone. A guide’s job is not to handle my dogs, it is mine. In fact I realize looking back some 60 some years of hunting that with more than one dog in the thick grouse cover I spent more time being concerned about the dogs than hunting. In other words I was running dogs not hunting them. In very thick coverts of grouse habitat it is difficult enough to make sure you control even a well trained dog that ventures too far. If anyone has experienced a dog on point out of sight in this cover you want to get to it as quickly as one can. However you also are concerned as to what the other dog is doing. Not a good situation. Two dogs would make this untenable, at least for me. So in fact I answered my own question with yours and everyone’s insight.
Thanks for you insight and thoughts, Thornapple

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by bonasa » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:06 pm

The best I have found for grouse hunting is 1 hunter and 1 dog, then 2 hunters and 1 dog, lastly 2 hunters and 2 broke dogs. I have seen broke dogs stand while a young dog rips the bird, although I have seen it the opposite way more often.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Thornapple » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:39 pm

Bonasa Umbellus,
If any dog rips a bird on a hunt, whether a friends or mine it is put up immediately. Bad behavior of any kind is not acceptable under any circumstances. I too have seen this as most of us have, unfortunately it also is not dealt with properly or promptly - and I do not mean harshly either.
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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by SetterNut » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:33 pm

I am not a Ruff G hunter, quail is my primary target.

But I don't understand why if you have two good dogs that will back each other, why would you not hunt them together on grouse.
There is nothing that is better in hunting than to come up on a pair of honest dog, one pointing and one backing,
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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Thornapple » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:20 pm

Steve,
A good grouse hunter is like traversing the jungles around Dong Ap Bia in Vietnam. it requires stealth, quiet, and using all your senses! Your attention is on the task at hand and you must have a dog that understands this, not like open field shooting.
#1 in grouse cover you are surrounded by thick conifers, briars, or what we in New England call Thornapples; not open field long grass.
#2 You spend half you time ducking, stepping over, or off balance due to the terrain and cover
#3 Cover is called covert as it is by definition very thick vegetation
#4 You never know even with a point where the bird is
#5 If a bird flushes it has the evasive capacity of a F18 eluding a bad guy.
#6 The bottom line is you can not see much more than 20 feet in front of you, if that and that is far! Frequently branches, logs, stone walls, are all in your way when a bird goes up. the term, "Fighting the Second Battle of Iwo Jima" was coined for a reason!
Dogs that run big frequently go on point out of sight and you need to locate them before the bird walks away or flushes. Dogs that run big run the risk of running too big and getting lost. Each year dogs are lost if not managed properly. Managing too dogs as I said in an early post requires "Running Dogs," not hunting. Two dogs requires too much time managing them and not hunting. Given the denstiy you simply have trouble knowing where they are all the time. As a result you are not hunting!

In quail hunting you can watch your dogs over a huge area, both dogs or several braces. You also are able to keep track of them, if trained properly with backing, even on a covery rise out of the corner of your eye. Grouse hunting requires, from my perspective, more skill by the dog given their evasive nature and tremendous skill by the dog to not flush, to learn to circle, hold a bird, and then find it in the heavy covert. I have taken Eleu pointers or other dogs from Thomasville and other locations in the South north to Minnesota or the UP of Michigan and they constantly bust birds early and have difficulty understanding how to approach and remain steady on a running grouse in the thick woods. Some finally get it, many never do. Hopefully this might give you some sense of what is required not only of the dog but also the gunner working together.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:59 pm

Uh, I never took a vacation in a foreign country other than Scotland and I have only hunted ruffed grouse for 48 seasons but...

1) Ruffed grouse are not always found in thick cover. If anything, they are more related to "edge" of a cover. Edge often being and best defined by the ruffed grouse themselves.
Thick is better explained, perhaps, as varying degrees of early successional age class...and, simply, often grouse are where you find them.
The range and conditions of the ruffed grouse are moderately wide.
2) I would agree that short grass prairie requires less...manipulation when walking but...the thick deal can be overblown a bit....season makes a big difference along with section of the range.
3) Cover is the general term for a habitat that favors a species, a covert is a particular piece of cover unrelated to thickness.....imho. I'm sure other definitions apply.
4) You certainly can know where the bird is under a point....but grouse will move, of course. The dog's eyes are a good place to look if you wonder.
5) Ruffed grouse can offer easy-ish shooting, as can woodcock...all depends upon the bird, the cover and the conditions. Other times, all you can do is grin.
6) In the Apps in later season, one can often see a good ways.....trees can appear to move into inopportune locations at times but, one will have that.
There is a long literary record of grouse hunting....one can often find that the worst often implys the best in that record....hunting or hunter.
Not always true as a given.

Dogs can become lost, especially if age is involved or terrain or any number of other issues....same on the prairie to a degree.
A larger running ruffed grouse dog tho is not a candidate for lost only by his hunt....that manner of hunt can actually pay dividends and is often determined by the birds themselves.
As I noted, two dogs afield does not interest me...prairie or woods.
However, I can understand times when it would bring positives in producton and esthetics....each to their own.
But, I would never put a dog up if it bumped a grouse....sometimes the dog has no choice.
I find that all three of my setters are all less than perfect...as they no doubt find me struggling with perfection as well.
Soemhow, it all seems to work out.

Interesting how grouse and ruffed grouse hunting appears to vary so much...the common thread would be, I hope, in the wildness the bird offers that has yet to be touched by those seeking to capture wildness in a package for sale.
Hopefully, it never will be captured.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by birddogger » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:10 pm

SetterNut wrote:I am not a Ruff G hunter, quail is my primary target.

But I don't understand why if you have two good dogs that will back each other, why would you not hunt them together on grouse.
There is nothing that is better in hunting than to come up on a pair of honest dog, one pointing and one backing,
It is a beautiful thing. :D

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Thornapple » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:10 am

Mountaineer,
I agree with most of what you wrote, with one exception.

Frequently when I discuss grouse hunting to those used to the Kansas or South Dakota prairies and CRP, or fields down in Georgia or South Carolina, etc. the word cover has a different meaning. You are right, from the little I have done in 58 years of hunting, Partridge or grouse indeed are found along the edges. I find them mostly in the morning and late afternoon. Over a few years I find moving into the thick brush, old briar encrusted apple orchards, and conifers, etc. between those hours less productive, but fun. It keeps the old blood flowing as the birds are a lot more skittish and elusive. However it does require field dressing at times due to the lacerations and bruises.

What I don't agree with, or at least needs some clarification, is putting a dog up if it misbehaves. What I am addressing is someone joining the field with their dog, who does not take dog training, his dog seriously, or is as is usually the case being a first class arrogant jerk. It usually was a handler and his dog completely out of control. Screaming, yelling, dog not backing, grabbing a shot bird, eating it, and flushing birds’ way out shot range. We all have seen it, we all have witnessed it. It is these circumstances that I will either ask the handler to put his dog up, or both can leave; if not I will. Hunting is too precious to have the experience ruined by those not willing to be responsible for their dogs and others.

When I first moved to Washington, DC back in the 1970s I wrote to a man whom I always wanted to meet, that was G.B. Evans. I had his most recent book, THE UPLAND SHOOTING LIFE, and owned and hunted over Ryman’s most of my life. I wanted to just meet him and talk dogs. What is relevant to that meeting and subsequent conversation regarding dogs is his insistence that anyone that guns with him, he wanted to see how the individual handled his dog first. I asked why and he said, "I will not hunt with a bad behaved dog or handler. It is not the dog, but the handler that does not take the time or effort to make the dog his partner. He does not take hunting seriously and they are a waste of my time!" Mr. Evans (that is how I referred to him) was a man of little words, but when spoken, he said a lot.
Best, Thornapple

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:32 am

Understood, Tapple.

Where I would expect to find misbehaved dogs and the necessity of "putting them up" combined would be in a Preserve setting....not ruffed grouse hunting.
And for the reasons I earlier mentioned.
A preserve scenario is entirely different.
If a dog poaches a point or whatever and impacts another's dog negatively...yes, that is not a good thing.
As I dislike more than one dog down or Preserves or crowds....the issue is moot, for me.
I have hunted on Pelee Island where my setter went goofy with all the birds and shooting....that pup was not a dog for that situation in several ways....he put on a clinic one day but still, not his best place for manners.
I learn to adjust and learn that perfection is nice but it's best to choose hunts wisely to match dog and hunter both...then allow for imperfection and use any so found as a learning opportunity...or not.
Fielder's choice.

You might notice my signature re GBE.
I had/have the greatest respect for the man(and Kay) in how he lived his life and the wisdom he early showed concerning the proper management of the ruffed grouse...let alone his ability to bring appalatchian grousehunting to life on a page.
He was correct decades and decades ago concerning pressure and seasons....and was a complicated and imperfect individual, just like us all.
But......having seen the tapes of him cutting 4 setters loose up on the Sods :D and the resulting chinese fire drill that resulted, and reading of his Wilda and knowing many Old Hemlockers and Old Hemlock cogniscienti as friends.....the badly behavied dog was not unknown to GBE nor always set down, I reckon.
One's own dog can make a difference :wink: , one will simply have that.
While I am confident that few individuals would ever live up to some top billing, the likes of Mr and Mrs Evans will never be seen again.
More sad that mold is lost.

Back to the two dogs and grouse hunting....I know friends who find success there combined with enjoyment.
I also know that there are also factors and conditions involved that make the decisions of one or more workable.
Generalizing in this regard seldom is best.....Fit & Try.
And never, ever miss out recognizing the small points that really make a day of birdhunting....or ever allow the smallest of points of a dog to define a day as bad or good.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Thornapple » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:53 am

Mountaineer,
Most of the old writers were not well paid, but did it out of love of the bird, dogs, and an occasional human; if one ever came there way. Most are now gone. Being difficult, irrascible, and independent was the trademark of these fellows. Only one, Havihla Babcock ever was known to be a charmer. But he was an English professor at Univ. of South Carolina and spent more time writing about old hounds and yarns than birds. Although when he did as in They Shoot Elephants, Don't They he was terrific!

At my age I spend as much time looking and enjoying what I am traveling through and appreciating how much smarter my dog is than me. Which is not saying much!

There is one story I will share with you. My very first hunt in West Virginia I was fortunate enough to be paired up with a DNR officer on his day off. He was lean, wiry, and one of the few in his department that liked to grouse hunt. So as we introduced ourselves I noticed he had Nike running shoes on and just a pair of jeans. I had my old Russel three times re-shod and beat to heck Birdshooters along with my 10x chaps. I asked why he wore Nike shoes and he responded, "To run up those after them birds! Your clod hoppers aint go'n make it. Too heavy!" He was pointing to one of the several mountains around us. He was right, that was a short day for me.
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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Thornapple » Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:15 am

Sorry, I Don't Want to Shoot An Elephant, by Babcock
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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:31 pm

I assume you know of GBE's opinion of certain WVDNR folks and their hunting years ago.

The steepest WVa grouse country would be the southern coalfields, not the Brierys and Chestnut Ridge.
What was nice years ago and before my time were all the tramroads for easy-er access....and the lack of Leasing in WVa.
Different day now, different woods in many ways.

I would think your Russels better than Nikes as far as ankle support....but chaps would kill my legs in hills.

Ford would be the writer with a capital W but others had their niche.
No doubt many had feet of clay.
Same as today.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Thornapple » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:51 pm

Mountaineer,
Agreed on all counts.

Mountaineer, have you ever known anyone to train a dog to circle a bird? I know the standard repy over the years has and still is, "The dogs have to learn it themselves." However, I am curious if it can not be done. My Ryman setter learned only because he got tired of chasing them on a re-flush or running bird. With pheasants he would race ahead of me and then double back. I knew when it happened the first time something was afoot. He obviously figured out a running cock bird was better pointed once versus re-positioning and then running to keep up. But that took years for him to figure out. Not many dogs are capable of doing it, but it is a sight to experience when it happens, pining a bird!
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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:37 pm

Pining or "setting a grouse for the master's gun" as one...interesting 8) .... character puts it...can happen.
Often there is some luck involved and a resultant use of imagination by the hunter; or the grouse makes a bad move as they will or, a dog gets exposed in the correct cover enough times to respond with good moves theirownself.
Happens a lot with dogs and experience with wild pheasants as you noted.....happens more due to the cover involved...imho.
I do think that there are some dogs that thru whatever inherited blessing or exposure at the correct time are able to handle birds with seeming aplomb and deliberateness.
Rather than try to dissect that when it happens or use it for personal gain, I reckon it nice simply to appreciate it for the times when it does not occur.
What gets old are the interesting folks amongst us all who use a dog's real or imagined ability to somehow define "best"....or fill-in-the-blank dog.

Train for it?...I would guess that given the right ingredients, a chef can turn out a mighty tasty repast.
The point to remember tho is that the bird must cooperate a tad in the pining.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Thornapple » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:55 pm

Bird Cooperate? Yes, with grouse in particular it is best if there is a fairly long point, then a long end run and come in from the other side. The only problem with a dog doing this is, if done before you get to the bird, there is a risk of a premature flush. How many times have you seen grouse cooperate for a pincer movement? Not often and when they do there is that old hemlock right next to them that becomes their salvation.
Works best on pheasants and wild quail for sure. If it is a running bird it will most likely be out of range running anyway on a strait away point or it flushes, or stops. The dog simply acts as an old fashioned blocker, without a gun.
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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:29 pm

:D Yes, cooperate.
By not flushing out of Dodge or by stopping at a cover break or whatever....cooperation does not need to include willingness but it often involves cover particuulars and what the grouse considers safe from 10" or so above the ground.
As well, speaking of grouse and grouse pre-dispersal especially, age enters the cooperation picture...young birds can be a bit dense and look to what their neighbors are doing too long.
I think a lot of gamebirds cooperate with us and may make us and our dogs look good at times...those can end up on a tailgate tho, depending.
I also think that hunters take credit for what was a dumb or wrong-guessing gamebird on the not so odd occassion.

As far as a ruffed grouse point, the hunter plays a large part in a bird holding and in helping a pup hold as well...imo.
There is a dance, of sorts.
I'm happy the dance does not always work out.
Hopefully, no one wants to kill 'em all.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Thornapple » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:23 pm

There is good news and bad with what you just expressed.
The good is given the number of bad shots I experience – me included - , (notwithstanding Andy Duffy who enjoys making a game of killing as many grouse as he can so he impress the high rollers at the Ruffed Grouse Life members Invitational), the birds are still smarter than we. Predation by hunters is still less than miniscule compared to all the other critters, disease, and weather. Yes, young birds like young men do stupid things and pay the price. However I am always amazed as to why that particular bird knew when to zig as I zagged with my gun.

The bad news is there are still bird hunters who do not take the time to understand and appreciate their dogs. What is the main bit of advice George Hickox gives his client’s, “Put duck tape over that mouth yours!”
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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:51 pm

Thornapple wrote:There is good news and bad with what you just expressed.
The good is given the number of bad shots I experience – me included - , (notwithstanding Andy Duffy who enjoys making a game of killing as many grouse as he can so he impress the high rollers at the Ruffed Grouse Life members Invitational), the birds are still smarter than we. Predation by hunters is still less than miniscule compared to all the other critters, disease, and weather. Yes, young birds like young men do stupid things and pay the price. However I am always amazed as to why that particular bird knew when to zig as I zagged with my gun.

The bad news is there are still bird hunters who do not take the time to understand and appreciate their dogs. What is the main bit of advice George Hickox gives his client’s, “Put duck tape over that mouth yours!”
Thornapple
Anyone who makes a game of racking grouse numbers, in or out of a subtle competition, would be an idiot...as is the RGS for hosting their annual kill 'em tourney.
There are many reasons I do not belong to the RGS.
Ruffed grouse and all gamebirds can simply be lucky, as well as slick in departing.

Hunter additivity rangewide and season long with ruffed grouse is a non-issue.
Hunter additivity covert-wide and in areas where the grouse decline is advanced is an issue.
Assuming zero hunter additivity regardless of circumstances is best termed as selfish hunting.

There is often too much talking.....more often there is too much whistle blowing.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Thornapple » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:49 am

Mountaineer,
"Hunter additivity covert-wide and in areas where the grouse decline is advanced is an issue."

I do not think you meant what you wrote, or at least how I interprited it. And it is important. I agree about the RGS, but not the fellows like you and the many on other dedicated partridge hunters on this forum, or the many others that impact our favorite bird, not by a long shot!

I grew up on a farm in Vergennes, Vermont in the 1940s and 50s. I have hunted for almost 50 years every year as many locations throught the Vermont as anyone I know. For all this time I have collected topos of every cover I hunted, birds flushed, birds KIA, dogs uses and dogs shot over and specific locations. I do not hunt the area I grew up and love any more. Friends of mine who have hunted Pennsylvania, New York, New Hampshire, even North Carolina, etc. who are serious grouse hunters share the same complaint - we can not go back any more. Yes, I know there will be some on this forum that will disagree, but that is not my observation or all the old timers I know. To make acceptable to the moderator, the polite word is the hunting STINKS! To be clear there is occasional good bird hunting the further away one goes; such as in what is called the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont, In Potter County in Pa., along the Canadian border in Maine, etc. I am sure they are other locations, but one now has to travel a good distance to replicate what we all used to experience. I know I am showing my age, and doing what I swore I would never do listening to my grandfather and dad, but it has arrived for me too, "The good old days were better"!

It is not the active or occasional bird hunters that are ruining generations of cover, it is the weekender with his million dollar cabin. It is the young couple that may hunt, "but not on my property," that build new homes on the old side hill covers. It is the retired couple that build their second home up in the UP of Michigan, and in West Virginia it is all the high cotton money coming out of DC, NYC, ST. Paul, Chicago, Detroit, etc. and their suburbs that are building on those cleared old farm lots. And the Dolly Vardens one of your favorites? Please! I drove through recently to pick up some homers to train my puppy and could not believe the amount of development going on, zoned, and planned. And remember, these homes i describe or not clearing out hardwoods principally, it is the secondary growth, the alders, the edges that are being destroyed.
No, the grouse hunter is the partridge's best friend by far.
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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:08 am

Well, Tapple...you raise more than one issue.
Many grousehunters do not believe that hunting late season is additive...I do...in areas where weather and terrain allow hunters in and where seasons go into February.
Hunting then, by capital G grousehunters or not, is a mistake.
Simply flushing the birds and either using up energy when food value in the central and southern apps is the poorest or in opening them to greater avain predation happens easiest in a true late season.
No issue to speak of in Michigan or even New York or the mountains of Pa....Ohio, for example, yes.
Ohio carries little snow and with a well-developed road system allows many small coverts access from the top or bottom.
Ohio wisely dropped February....but too late.
And before one assumes it is always habitat, nope.
Ohio still has a paper mill that needs fed and the lack of response in the ice storm area has many stumped......there is another issue that dropped numbers around 2002 in a drop steeper than a horse's face....I would guess it is health-related.
I have also seen in Ohio, 2 and 3 vehicles parked with RGS stickers rampant and a skirmish line of hunters sweeping the woods in February......those RGS stickers carried no wisdom of the damge that could result.,,,I'm guessing those guys are still hunting if they hear grouse have rebounded a bit.
Ohio, even with grouse numbers presently blipping up from the season shortening and good springs....will see hunter additivity an issue.....regardless of the good intent of any grousehunter.
Ohio is not singular either...one must not generalize on hunter additivity and the ruffed grouse.
And additivity is never offset locally by a butt in a banquet table chair.
Sometimes, even the dedicated grouse hunters must accept that the birds trump their own needs....as we never, ever hunt in a vacuum.

Imo, it is not so much development, altho Canaan Valley illustrates what can happen.
Development is simply unstoppable progress....would that the world was a bit different tho progress carries other benefits to us all.
Development can also, in the guise of the Marcellus and Utica, let in sunlight to many areas which helps grouse and grouse cover and also fills the coffers of a DNR like the Pennsylvania Game Commission.
In WVa, there are two principles issues apart from development.
Leasing of once open corporate coal and timber lands for deer and turkey and subsequent posting and also a mismanagement of the NF system and resulting low % of early successional. Deer hunter concentration can be tough on the ruffed grouse.
In Ohio, the ES is about 3.2%...a healthy number is reckoned anywhere from 15-22% or so.
I don't imagine it much different anywhere in the lower Apps.
That is the habitat connection....important of course, as is spring weather pre and post hatch and increased nest predators(often from spinning deer feeders) but....in some areas the other factors affecting decline increase in importance....hunter additivity being but one.
Ruffed grouse decline is not simple or equal across the range...in any degree or measure or answer.
That is my point...I have lived it.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Thornapple » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:59 pm

Mountaineer,
The solution is do what I did. Get in that old truck of yours and head north. No skirmish lines, just wolves and porcupines, but lots of grouse. Most of the fellows you write about would not travel that far for a little no account bird with a fan tail or a long beak anyway. They come for bear, wolves, and moose. The only thing I worry about are Conibears and holding my dog while I remove a mouthfull of quills.
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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:17 pm

:) I am not shopping for a solution, I have learned the value of the Superslab.
I was addressing your comments about hunter additivity and other concerns, especially relative to the old Bonasa U.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Mike13w » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:01 pm

Tapple and Mountaineer,

I've really enjoyed reading your dialogue. It's great to get insight from the old guard. I have to admit that while I always try to do, what in my mind is ethical and best for the birds while in the woods, some things you fellows bring up I haven't given much thought. I only know of a handful of grouse hunters in my area and most of them stick to walking logging or coal roads due to how rough the terrain is. In my part of the apps I think the main cause for decline is the absolute rape of the mountains and habitat that comes from strip mining and mountain top removal. However, another extremely popular opinion of some of my out of state hunting buddies is the competition that turkeys bring has a extremely negative impact on the birds. I'd like to hear both your opinions on this. My friends are very well respected in the grouse community and I've heard them say on multiple occasions that they will kill every turkey they see, which came as a shock to me. I know here in Ky, the fish and wildlife have been spent a lot of money and resources on the turkey population as the grouse continue to decline.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:13 pm

I used to believe that the turkeys made little difference.
In support of that, no turkey damage was seen on the grouse nests video monitored in the ACGRP study.
Still, as turkeys will scratch at the base of trees, the odd nest could be destroyed.
And, as the NWTF pushed turkeys everywhere to fill their banquet seats and coffers, some areas received them that had little historical connection to the bird...never a good thing. For example, I think southern Wisconsin grouse have been hurt by turkeys.
Grouse do not stand much human interference in the apps either, imo...especially as they have fallen in population.
More deer and turkey hunters wandering in the woods at certain times of the year have an impact...yet another small factor of decline but one that means little if the grouse population is viable and at a healthy level....which, in many areas, sadly it is not.
I also would not be surprised that turkey carry a health component that works on the grouse, not necessarily to kill the birds but perhaps to weaken their immune system and that affects the bird's ability to pull off a hatch or even a viable egg....don't know.
No one is studying that possibile connection...deer and turkey are near untouchable golden geese for many DNRs.
Grouse in NY have been found to carry West Nile but none have ever been found to die from that virus....weaken them?...perhaps.
In general, I expect turkeys can compete for acorns which is a prime Appalatchian grouse food; can offhandly kill the odd chick or damage a nest and may carry a negative health component re the ruffed grouse.
So, turkeys as with grouse hunters, likely earn a little blame along the way.
Never equal to habitat loss, weather or nest/air predators but....an effect never the less for suffering local populations of grouse.
Too many tho blame turkeys in too great a degree and believe they swallow chicks like popcorn...that I doubt occurs very often but those who believe will brook no counter idea.
Killing turkeys wholesale tho is a pretty dumb idea and illegal.....that manner of help the grouse does not need.
I expect such talk is mostly for the barbershop crowd.

I sat beside 3 fellas from KYDNR at the ACGRP presentation...seemed like concerned fellas who, according to them, were told to listen and not speak.
I am afraid that is too often a track that some DNRs take.....MTR in KY serves mostly their elk program and I wish that KY would keep them there rather than have the mangy things cross into the southern coalfields of WVa.
Difficult to blame the DNRs in one way as it is a political situation and deer/turkey require virtually no help to allow them to prosper, comparably....add in the obstructionsist lawsuits from the SELC and DNR will and effort is zero before too long.
In Ky and all thru the Apps, logging is needed for the health of early successional species of all kinds and of the forest itself and if done correctly, carries little environmental damage...MTR is a far different duck tho.
From a practical standpoint, there simply are not enough mills to process enough timber to ever bring the ES % to a healthy level on state and national forests in the region....that ship has sailed.
The Marcellus and Utica plays also have killed the burgeoning Biomass interest of a few years ago as well.
Strip mining, if access is not an issue from active mining or that dam(n)ed Leasing, has always been a plus for ruffed grouse....but, there are cautions involved.
Anyway, there are other notes but that is my basic opinion.

Basically, if the season is in, and it is not February, then have fun and hunt with an understanding that one does not have to shoot a ruffed grouse...to kill it.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Thornapple » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:05 am

Mike13w,
I find this site like popcorn; you can not have just one! You must keep coming back for more. The reason? We all love our dogs and what we do.

Before I continue I think it wise to say I have learned never ever to believe everything one hears or reads. I have learned to be prepared to find out I am wrong, and then continue searching for a better answer. Question all, as what I thought was true I would find out later is not. This is particularly true among hunters whom are never short of opinions and advice. The exception being two old timers of course! :D

That being said over the years I talk to as many folks whom I consider have taken the time to study the birds I enjoy hunting. This includes biologists from the Minnesota, Vermont, Maine, etc. state DNR and some University Agriculture departments. Also I enjoy reading s much as I can get my hands on books written on the subject among them a staple reference for me, Ruffed Grouse published by Stackpole Press. I mention this as it is a very good book written by some of the leading wildlife biologists in the US on Grouse. One of them is from your home state Harold Barber who was Chief Forest Wildlife Biologist for Kentucky among some 25 other individuals that have studied the bird. It is an easy book to read and a great reference.

Rather than weigh on why birds have disappeared from Kentucky, I might recommend you read the Ruffed Grouse or other good books on Grouse habitat and draw your own conclusions. The same question can be applied to quail in your home state as well. Ask 20 bobwhite hunters why they have disappeared and you will get 40 different answers. As an example I just came from a seminar on quail habitat given for landowners by four well recognized wildlife biologists. All it amounted to is more confusion and lots of disagreements.

I do not want to be discouraging for you. After some 60 years of hunting birds (with the exception of two years in Southeast Asia) I am just beginning to learn and understand what I enjoy; almost! In short, the more I learn, the more I understand, I know very well there is always that exception that proves me wrong. Not with standing all this advice, humility is the greatest strength of a bird hunter I have found.
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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by buckeyebowman » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:15 pm

Very interesting thread! I love grouse, but I haven't seen one around here (NE OHIO) in a long, long time! Of course, the same can be said for quail and pheasant. We know what happened to the quail. The winters of '77 and '78 finished them off around here. Pheasant, who knows? Turkeys seem to be the only game bird that the ODNR values these days. Hey, you can sell tags on turkeys! Not for the others.

As far as logging and grouse goes, we used to have a fabulous place to grouse hunt. It was basically a pretty mature forest, but it was infested with wild grape vines. Invariably we would find grouse in and around the big tangles of vines where they had pulled a tree, or trees, down and opened up the canopy. Then, one year while grouse hunting, we noticed that someone had gone through the woods and sawed through every grape vine they could find! Some of them were as thick as my calf. Slowly, over time, the grouse populations declined.

Anyway, to get back to the question of a guide, and how many dogs in grouse cover, two simple statements come to mind. They may seem contradictory, but they're really not. I read them a long time ago and have never forgotten them.

Statement #1. "Don't guide the guide." If you have to do this, why hire them in the first place?
Statement #2. "Tell the guide exactly what it is you want." If you want to hunt your own dogs, two at a time, in grouse coverts provided by the guide, then that is what you want! If the guide is not prepared to deliver that, find one who is. After all, you're paying for it.

There used to be an old saying in business, "The customer is always right." That's not exactly correct so it's been modified to, "The customer may not always be right, but they are, always, the customer!"

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Winchey » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:49 pm

I know a guide up here who can get you into a lot of birds, if his dogs are on the ground there are rules, if not you can do as you please. I don't understand why anyone else would be different.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Hattrick » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:41 pm

Thornapple good luck hunting. The NAVHDA NA test has a cut off at 16 months of age. You will need to work toward UT. Wack sum grouse!

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Hattrick » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:42 pm

Sorry for the double post

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Thornapple » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:59 pm

Hattrick,
Thanks for the heads up. In fact I was looking at the N/A testing and realized I had to get with the program given my puppy's age. We will test this spring and are starting training now.
I find the subject of not preparing for the N/A as many say, as it is supposed to test the innate ability of your puppy. However when I talk to those succesful at the N/A test every single one says, "Non sense!"
With my dogs I need impetus, familiarity and purpose to get them to respond properly - all reltated of course as you well know to obediance. Principally getting your puppy used to tracking starts with basic obediance training (kennel, whoa, here, and heel). Learning to track with a dragged duck or pheasant to understand how to follow scent. Many dogs I find need help developing this skill some come by it naturally. Then on to familiarity with gun shot sounds as one prepares all young dogs. Finally entering the water for retrieve of a bumper.
All of these tasks for some dogs, as I indicated, come without hesitation; others need guidance like mine. :D
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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:58 pm

buckeyebowman wrote:As far as logging and grouse goes, we used to have a fabulous place to grouse hunt. It was basically a pretty mature forest, but it was infested with wild grape vines. Invariably we would find grouse in and around the big tangles of vines where they had pulled a tree, or trees, down and opened up the canopy. Then, one year while grouse hunting, we noticed that someone had gone through the woods and sawed through every grape vine they could find! Some of them were as thick as my calf. Slowly, over time, the grouse populations declined....

That grapevine cutting would be a form of TSI...Timber Stand Improvement.
Likely, the owner of the woods was more concerned with marketable timber developing over the coming decades rather than ruffed grouse cover.

The ruffed grouse has declined in Ashtabula and all of Ohio for far more and greater reasons than TSI......but it never helps.

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Re: What is ideal, One dog or two in the Coverts?

Post by Grange » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:10 pm

I love hunting my two dogs in grouse cover. I do it all the time though one is a flusher. I also grouse hunt with four brittanies (two at a time) and they work well together.

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