Flagging?

[Fran Seagren]

What makes a dog flag?

[Fran Seagren]

I asked the question before searching for a previous thread regarding flagging. Sorry - should have known there would have been a discussion on this forum.

The reason I asked is that I had thought it was an inherited trait until I saw two guys working their 2 1/2 - 3 yr old dogs today. Both dogs flagged. One was a brittany and one a GSP. So, they obviously weren't related.

[SetterNut]

I have seen it in dogs that have had too much pressure put on them in training. I suspect in some situations it is a sign of uncertainty in a dog.

I am sure it can also be partly from breeding.

[bb560m]

I'm guessing they both caught a lot of birds when they were younger.

[Fran Seagren]

I'm guessing they both caught a lot of birds when they were younger.

I'm new to this forum and not sure if I did the "quote" feature correctly. We'll see.

After watching the two guys work their dogs yesterday, the person (bb560m) that made the above comment, I believe hit the nail on the head. Not only when watching them train, but the wife of one of the guys told me how they had taken the GSP hunting year before last in ND where she not only found a lot of pheasants, but when the dog flushed them, they shot the birds.

I just haven't (personally) seen a lot of pointing dogs that flag and was wondering if it could be "man-made." I've been lucky enough - or smart enough - to work with professional trainers when I was learning how to train our setters. None of the dogs they worked flagged, so I've only seen it on TV programs and then yesterday. Thanks.

[slistoe]

I'm guessing they both caught a lot of birds when they were younger.

x2

[Elkhunter]

I have seen dogs that flag from uncertainty. Not really trusting or knowing whats happening etc. Usually from younger first season dogs.

[volraider]

pressure and launching birds at first scent.

[mountaindogs]

Everyone says "pressure " right away. It is interesting that every dog I have personally seen with this has caught quiet a few birds before the steady work started.

[birddogger]

Everyone says "pressure " right away. It is interesting that every dog I have personally seen with this has caught quiet a few birds before the steady work started.

I agree, there can be more than one reason for this.









Charlie

[Fran Seagren]

After watching how the owners launched the birds and shot them before either of the two dogs were on a solid point, I'm pretty sure those of you that mentioned "catching too many birds" are correct.

Thanks for all the great responses. If I stay on this forum, before long, I'll be really good at training "pointy" dogs!

[Neil]

I don't know what causes it or care, I do know how to avoid and cure it.

[birddogger]

I don't know what causes it or care, I do know how to avoid and cure it.

I am a little confused [not that uncommon for me, especially while working 13 hr. midnight shifts]. It seems to me that if you know how to avoid it, you must know things that can cause it.

Charlie

[Neil]

I don't know what causes it or care, I do know how to avoid and cure it.

I am a little confused [not that uncommon for me, especially while working 13 hr. midnight shifts]. It seems to me that if you know how to avoid it, you must know things that can cause it.

Charlie

Not you, I was unclear.

I have never had a dog flag, so I do not know of the thousands of things that I don't do, which ones would cause it.

The only way I know to prove why a dog flags is to train in a way that causes it. I don't want to do that.

No one really knows why a dog does anything, except eat and poop, they are just guessing. I see no value in the why just the what.

[chuckanut]

I don't know what causes it or care, I do know how to avoid and cure it.

I am a little confused [not that uncommon for me, especially while working 13 hr. midnight shifts]. It seems to me that if you know how to avoid it, you must know things that can cause it.

Charlie

Not you, I was unclear.

I have never had a dog flag, so I do not know of the thousands of things that I don't do, which ones would cause it.

The only way I know to prove why a dog flags is to train in a way that causes it. I don't want to do that.

No one really knows why a dog does anything, except eat and poop, they are just guessing. I see no value in the why just the what.

So, just satisfying my own curiousity here, what training techniques do you need to avoid to keep it from happening and how do you fix it once it starts? I don't think I've ever seen a dog do this but it sounds like something I want to avoid.

[Neil]

The Smith system will avoid it and cure it.

Killing birds.

[birddogger]

I don't know what causes it or care, I do know how to avoid and cure it.

I am a little confused [not that uncommon for me, especially while working 13 hr. midnight shifts]. It seems to me that if you know how to avoid it, you must know things that can cause it.

Charlie

Not you, I was unclear.

I have never had a dog flag, so I do not know of the thousands of things that I don't do, which ones would cause it.

The only way I know to prove why a dog flags is to train in a way that causes it. I don't want to do that.

No one really knows why a dog does anything, except eat and poop, they are just guessing. I see no value in the why just the what.

Thanks, I understand.

Charlie

[ezzy333]

I think flagging comes primarily from a lack of intensity. The problem is what caused that lack of intensity and it can be too much handling during the pointing process, possibly the dog lacks a little in desire, or fear of punishment if the dog has been corrected too severely for a mistake such as flushing or chasing a bird. There can be a host of problems but if you watch I think many times you can figure it out. What has short-curcuited the message getting to the pup?

Ezzy

[campgsp]

After watching how the owners launched the birds and shot them before either of the two dogs were on a solid point, I'm pretty sure those of you that mentioned "catching too many birds" are correct.

Thanks for all the great responses. If I stay on this forum, before long, I'll be really good at training "pointy" dogs!

I don't agree. I have shot unpointed birds over dogs in my youth (yes excitement and being young) and I assure you non were flagging after. If anything it will only cause a dog to creep or break point. But even then it's a very small chance that will even happen with a good broke dog.

Flagging is caused for many reasons, but the top ones are too much bird work at a young age. Mix it up every other day birds. They just get bored. To much talking while the dog is on point. Correcting a dog on point to much. Like setting them back or styling them up every find. Let them be. If their tail hasn't been up the way you want it the last two finds it never will.
Flagging is always going to be a trainers fault. Do it right the first time.

Just my .02

[bb560m]

I think flagging comes primarily from a lack of intensity. The problem is what caused that lack of intensity and it can be too much handling during the pointing process, possibly the dog lacks a little in desire, or fear of punishment if the dog has been corrected too severely for a mistake such as flushing or chasing a bird. There can be a host of problems but if you watch I think many times you can figure it out. What has short-curcuited the message getting to the pup?

Ezzy

Wrong - almost always from dogs catching birds when younger. Flag when they start thinking about catching them.

[slistoe]

I think flagging comes primarily from a lack of intensity. The problem is what caused that lack of intensity and it can be too much handling during the pointing process, possibly the dog lacks a little in desire, or fear of punishment if the dog has been corrected too severely for a mistake such as flushing or chasing a bird. There can be a host of problems but if you watch I think many times you can figure it out. What has short-curcuited the message getting to the pup?

Ezzy

Wrong - almost always from dogs catching birds when younger. Flag when they start thinking about catching them.

The only thing I would disagree with in Ezzy's post is the "primarily" comment. Pressure and anticipation are causes in many dogs. But I have seen egregious cases of flagging (more like wagging) in dogs that lack intensity in the first place and are pleasing their master by standing there.

[Chukar12]

I am with the multiple reasons crowd for sure...and I agree that in some way, shape or form it is a lack of intensity on the bird. I see dogs flagging when their trainer approaches for no other possible reason other than the trainer makes them nervous, and in my opinion it does not have to be simply because there has been poor interaction around birds (though this is a pretty sure way to make it happen). A dog can be confused enough in yard training to flag in the field, a human that takes short cuts and makes demands that are not understood by the dog runs the risk of transferring that relationship to all kinds of places including confidence in the field.

Maybe the transition from bumping and chasing is too severe. It could be described as too many birds too young, but that is not a "reason" to flag, the reason is the expected change in behavior is handled poorly.

[slistoe]

Maybe the transition from bumping and chasing is too severe. It could be described as too many birds too young, but that is not a "reason" to flag, the reason is the expected change in behavior is handled poorly.

Not if the flagging is anticipation of the expected result - grabbing the bird. But how do you know if it is pressure or anticipation? Some dogs are easier to read than others.

[Chukar12]

Not if the flagging is anticipation of the expected result - grabbing the bird. But how do you know if it is pressure or anticipation? Some dogs are easier to read than others.

Maybe the transition from bumping and chasing is too severe. It could be described as too many birds too young, but that is not a "reason" to flag, the reason is the expected change in behavior is handled poorly.

Not if the flagging is anticipation of the expected result - grabbing the bird. But how do you know if it is pressure or anticipation? Some dogs are easier to read than others.

If I understand you...that is my point. The expected result has to be either introduced or managed in a manner that does not either A. cause the undesirable behavior or B. Does not reward the undesirable behavior until the desired behavior is achieved.

[Ms. Cage]

Alot of discussion about pressure but little about genetics with this issue.

[Chukar12]

Alot of discussion about pressure but little about genetics with this issue.

The original post mentions a GSP and a Brittany that are presumably not related but have been trained and or handled in a similar manner, therefore the focus on trainer contribution...and I believe that the genetic aspect is very rare in the current state of most breeds. I can say with certainty it is rare in solid Brittany field lines.

[Chukar12]

Alot of discussion about pressure but little about genetics with this issue.

WAIT! Maybe i agree with you...did you mean genetics of the dog or trainer?

[Ms. Cage]

What makes a dog flag?

IMO it's not as rare as you might think. Over the the years seen a fair share of dogs from EP's To Britts. IMO i think it can be a combination. Don't care what breed it is.

[Ms. Cage]

Alot of discussion about pressure but little about genetics with this issue.

WAIT! Maybe i agree with you...did you mean genetics of the dog or trainer?

Is this a slam to the female gender!!! Or has god spoken????

[Chukar12]

How do you get the female angle out of that?
Certainly not

[slistoe]

Alot of discussion about pressure but little about genetics with this issue.

WAIT! Maybe i agree with you...did you mean genetics of the dog or trainer?

Is this a slam to the female gender!!! Or has god spoken????

Talk about reading into things

[Neil]

HOF Buddy Smith says it is an absent minded sort of thing, I trust him.

Still I don't care,

I just care about the what. 50 years and I have not one flag.

[birddogger]

I think flagging comes primarily from a lack of intensity. The problem is what caused that lack of intensity and it can be too much handling during the pointing process, possibly the dog lacks a little in desire, or fear of punishment if the dog has been corrected too severely for a mistake such as flushing or chasing a bird. There can be a host of problems but if you watch I think many times you can figure it out. What has short-curcuited the message getting to the pup?

Ezzy

Wrong - almost always from dogs catching birds when younger. Flag when they start thinking about catching them.

Maybe, but whatever the reason, it still ammounts to lack of intensity, so I agree with Ezzy on that. I also agree with Mrs. Cage that it can sometimes be genetic.

[Wenaha]

Multiple reasons for flagging -- some that I have seen are:

1. Sometimes a genetic trait - but I do not think that this is a common reason

2. Communicating anxiety - for instance, it may be that the dog is thinking or signaling that the birds have moved off while he is still holding point

3. Uncertainty - Dog is uncertain about what is expected in the situation

4. Waiting to be released to retrieve - Some dogs that have been trained to retrieve may flag in anticipation of being released for the retrieve

5. Lack of intensity - often a dog will relax a bit (let down) on a prolonged flushing attempt. This can lead to flagging. I suspect that it is also related to uncertainty

6. Training pressure - harsh training in steadying a soft dog on birds often leads to permanent flagging problems

Some of these problems can be fixed, but some (genetic and too much pressure) are nearly impossible to cure.