What makes a good Grouse Pointer?

[Rod W]

I killed lots of grouse over my first grouse dog, Lady. I first hunted with bird dogs, over Ed Scherer's (world champion skeet shooter) dogs Buzz and Sally--English Setter and English Pointer. That was back in '94 and '95, when the population was at it lowest. We killed a few birds and I am sure if we would have hunted long enough, we would have killed birds over points as these both were high dollar, well trained pointers. Most birds flushed wildly, as most of us are used to! I trained Lady myself, unfortunately, she would bust most birds. I almost always hunt by myself and when she would point, I would also have her go in and flush. This is really beautiful when all goes right, but I guess it also makes her think it is allowable to flush at will---even if out of sight. I have a 14 mo. old pup that I will send to a trainer in May, I think I would like her to go up the road 75 yrds, over 20, and then back to me but staying in the woods, 20 yrds back. If she should hit a scent trail, she should point. If the bird flushes before she hits the scent, it should fly across the road for a good shot, I would hope! When Ally hunts her way back to me, she runs away, down the road, 75 yrds again and back 20 on the otherside to hunt back to me again. I had Lady, trained to do this, somewhat, only training from a book and what I wanted myself! What do others think, do?

[Winchey]

I just try to get them on wild birds constantly from they day they come home. Try to shoot everything that fly's there first season and then only birds they let me flush after that.

[uplandnut]

As many wild birds a you can find! When sending to a trainer realize that it doesn't always gaurantee your dog will come back a wild bird expert, keep in mind that most trainers do a lot of their training on pigeons or chukars. Neither of which respond the way a wild grouse does. Had my dog at a trainer last summer and he looked great on pen raised birds but still hasn't transfered it to the field. Also keep in mind that some dogs have it and some just never do get it quite right?

Were you finding a lot of birds this year up by you? I started to hunt with a guy I met just south of you and we had a great season! Good luck with your pup.

[Ms. Cage]

Nose , cooperation and lots of birds. We only shoot a few unpointed grouse for the dogs just so they understand what we want. After that the dogs must point the birds before they are shot. We hunt most days of our season so the dogs have a good chance develop their first season. the dogs are by no means polished bird dogs their first season but do learn they must stay off the birds. point when they hit scent.

[Rod W]

Were you finding a lot of birds this year up by you? I started to hunt with a guy I met just south of you and we had a great season! Good luck with your pup.[/quote]

No, Unfortunately, most of the popple is way to old to be good for grouse and the logging on the Nicolet Nat Forest is at a standstill here, thanks to the tree huggers. I guess the habitat got old the same time that my Lady did and I am right behind!

[BIGSP]

I think a good grouse pointer is like porn. When you see it you know what it is.

I have a 4 year old EP that had a really nice fall for me last year. If we went on a walk and moved 10 birds she would on average point 7 of them. 1 she might run over 1 might flush wild and 1 she might bump while tracking it. Now I'm not saying that I had shots at all 7 of those birds, some would run out and flush wild before I got there etc. but, by and large she would point and relocate on running birds like a champ. She is my 4th dog and is by far the best. I invested a lot of time, money and good grouse hunting spots with her when she was young. She pointed her first grouse at 5 months and really just got better as time went on. I made sure she got the most amount of ground time in the premo spots when she was young. She also went to Arizona with a pro one winter, that helped.

I don't agree with the "just put in on as many wild birds as possible" theory for all dogs. With her it probably would have worked, with my now 10 year old shorthair, it just made he a better bird ripper. I think a dog needs to be broke on pen birds and then it will learn on wild birds. Again not all dogs but, if your dog isn't handling birds well and it's seen quite a few, then I would get it in front of more pen birds and get the dog staunched up. Then put it on wild birds and make corrections when it screws up.

[Grange]

I'm in the school of as many wild birds as you can find. It's worked for my english setter and my parents brittanies. After the dogs learned how to handle grouse and woodcock we began the breaking process with pen raised birds and then polished up their manners on wild birds.

As far as my setter's pattern I didn't have to really do much. She naturally wants to be in front so I just had to work on keeping her with me as I changed directions. Keeping her off the trail was really never a problem as she seems to be most comfortable in cover.

[Gordon Guy]

In my opinion, Birds, birds and more birds only works if your dog has a lot of "Point". But if your dog doesn't have a lot "Point" (The desire to point birds above all else) an over abundance of contacts will turn a pointing dog into a flushing dog. The funny thing is with that method, that by the time you realize your dog doesn't have a lot of "Point " it's taking birds out and likes it. You have the makings of what could be a big problem that needs to get fixed before you start shooting pointed birds over that dog.

Fixing a problem takes more effort than showing them what you want them to do early on.

[Winchey]

Of course there is more to it than birds, birds and more birds. But a grouse dog learns to find and handle grouse well by working on a ton of grouse. They will not be exceptional without enough contacts.

Of course a trainer that knows when it is time to put soume manners on a dog and can recognize when the dog just likes ripping birds obviously helps, but it is not what makes a good grouse dog, it is what puts manners on a dog.

I have a dog that likes ripping them, I fixed it with stop to flush drills on wild birds.

[BIGSP]

In my opinion, Birds, birds and more birds only works if your dog has a lot of "Point". But if your dog doesn't have a lot "Point" (The desire to point birds above all else) an over abundance of contacts will turn a pointing dog into a flushing dog. The funny thing is with that method, that by the time you realize your dog doesn't have a lot of "Point " it's taking birds out and likes it. You have the makings of what could be a big problem that needs to get fixed before you start shooting pointed birds over that dog.

Fixing a problem takes more effort than showing them what you want them to do early on.

You explained it better than me but, I think we agree.

[bonasa]

There shouldn't be a difference in manners with wild vs. pen birds, a bird is a bird is a bird and the dog should want to hold them all. A cautious dog makes a good grouse pointer. Run them on wild bird in the beginning then break them on pen birds. When you are breaking on pen birds you are doing stop to flush drills, standing off game and pointing drills, holding point until you get there and waiting for you to flush. Without those basic elements you don't have much. After the breaking process it is just a matter of standing off game on wild birds. If the dog prematurely flushes the bird it gets a nice stop to flush, just like training and then you release the dog by name or touch. If the dog doesn't hold point until you get there, the dog gets a correction. Exactly why I like to keep them close in the beginning so I can correct, take a buddy to do the shooting and you carry the remote. If and when the dog stands off the bird and points while you flush do your best to kill the bird. You will know when the time is right to let the dog run as both of you have confidence that the dog will try it's best to hold the bird until you get there and doesn't want to flush the bird without you. Take the time and do it right and don't let the dog get away with anything.