First time out - going for Sharptail and Partridge in ND

[ptrthgr8]

Hi, all.

My brother-in-law's family owns a massive chunk of farm/pasture land up near Bowbells, North Dakota. We'll be making the drive (about 4 1/2 hours from home) to spend a long first weekend in October on the ol' farmstead. B-in-L says the cattle pasture has been empty for many years now and everything's pretty well back to a semi-natural prairie state. He told me growing up around there they always had lots of partridge (I assume Hungarian?) and sharptail grouse and he's been told by his folks that the populations for both are very good right now. Seems like a good time to get a first trip in before pheasant opener here in North Dakota in mid-October.

I'm a new hunter (this year will be my first ever hunting experience) and while I'm not new to guns (been an active shooter/collector for 20 years now), I know this will be a completely new experience. I've spent a lot of time this summer getting comfortable with my shotgun and busting clays - again, I know clays are a lot different than real birds, but at least I know I can shoot straight and shoot consistently with this gun.

I've also got a Weimaraner who will be making his first ever hunt (and is my first ever bird dog). Remy just turned 1 year old last week and he spent 7 weeks with Ed Erickson at Autumn Breeze Kennel in Isle, MN, during May/July learning how to be a good bird dog. (Good at flushing and retrieving, needs to work on pointing.) I've been working with him since we first got him last October to know the scent of pheasant (we play "find the pheasant" in our big backyard using a pheasant decoy and scent) and he's very interested in the doves we have all over the place - he definitely knows what a bird is and he wants to get on them.

So, I know where we're going and I know what I'm taking. At this point my questions are the following:

First, I'll continue to do some research online, but what are the best times of day to look for partridge and sharptails? Bro-in-law figures it would take 3 solid days to walk all of the former cattle pasture they have, so I'm trying to at least narrow it down to time of day so we have the best chances of success.

Second, does anyone know of any tips/tricks to finding these two types of birds? I.e. do they have favorite hiding places? There are a few tree lines and, of course, lots of fence line around the former cattle pasture. I believe there are also a couple of small ponds/watering holes, though not sure how well they've been maintained since the cattle are no longer there.

Finally, any other things I should keep in mind before heading out to the field? We'll be on private land with a homestead fairly close by, so I think we'll be pretty comfortable - just lots of walking I imagine. (And, yes, I've got a good pair of lightweight, waterproof, and lightly insulated boots. )

I’m definitely looking forward to getting Remy out there in the field. It will be fun to see how he works in a big field all to ourselves. It sounds like it will be a target-rich environment, but I won’t know for sure until we get there. And, heck, even if that’s a good assessment, that doesn’t mean I’ll hit anything, I suppose. But even if we don’t bring anything back I think it will be good experience to help prep us for the pheasant opener in mid-October. Spending time with your dog out in the field can’t be a bad way to spend a day.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[ruffbritt4]

The biggest thing is to make sure dog is properly introduced to gunfire, and shows no sensitivity to it. I don't know how you want the dog to be trained, but shoot only pointed birds, otherwise you will have a flusher. Have fun and i'm sure it will be good training for the dog.

[ptrthgr8]

The biggest thing is to make sure dog is properly introduced to gunfire, and shows no sensitivity to it. I don't know how you want the dog to be trained, but shoot only pointed birds, otherwise you will have a flusher. Have fun and i'm sure it will be good training for the dog.

My boy has been exposed to .410, 28, 20, and 12 gauge and hasn't even flinched once as far as I can tell. He actually doesn't seem to be bothered by loud noises at all (fireworks, thunder, etc.) so I think he'll be okay. Now, the two Beagles on the other hand... big babies.

Ed, the trainer, told me to not shoot anything unless Remy points. That will be hard to do since it will be my first time out, but I certainly don't want to ruin my pup for future hunts. There will always be another bird. Ed said he was surprised at first that Remy didn't point at all during training, but he spoke with the breeder (PM Weims from MT) and she mentioned that she's sent a handful of Weims to him to train and none of them pointed during training - but the moment they got out with the wild birds they starting pointing like machines. So, I'm hoping that Remy picks up the point pretty quickly.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[ruffbritt4]

The biggest thing is to make sure dog is properly introduced to gunfire, and shows no sensitivity to it. I don't know how you want the dog to be trained, but shoot only pointed birds, otherwise you will have a flusher. Have fun and i'm sure it will be good training for the dog.

My boy has been exposed to .410, 28, 20, and 12 gauge and hasn't even flinched once as far as I can tell. He actually doesn't seem to be bothered by loud noises at all (fireworks, thunder, etc.) so I think he'll be okay. Now, the two Beagles on the other hand... big babies.

Ed, the trainer, told me to not shoot anything unless Remy points. That will be hard to do since it will be my first time out, but I certainly don't want to ruin my pup for future hunts. There will always be another bird. Ed said he was surprised at first that Remy didn't point at all during training, but he spoke with the breeder (PM Weims from MT) and she mentioned that she's sent a handful of Weims to him to train and none of them pointed during training - but the moment they got out with the wild birds they starting pointing like machines. So, I'm hoping that Remy picks up the point pretty quickly.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

I would not take chances with the gun, even if the dog isn't bothered by it. Make sure to complete the gun intro because gun shyness wouldn't be a good way to start the season.You want a positive association with the gun, and you run the risk of the dog becoming gun shy later on. Always good to be safe than sorry.

[Gordon Guy]

Sharptails and Huns don't like heavy cover. Unless it's hot out then Sharptails will find the shade tree rows, choke cherry patches and or buffalo berries. Generally they (Sharptails) like alfalfa and grasshoppers and feed early in the morning and late in the afternoon. They also like elevation. If there's a high spot in the field try there, the grass is usually thinner and that seems to be where the birds like to roost. When they are out feeding they can be difficult to approach. I mostly hunted late mornings and early afternoons (I consider them to be Gentlemen birds). Sleep well, eat a good breakfast and have at'em. Unless the temps are hot then use the cool of the early morning to your advantage. Pheasant hunters often make the mistake of hunting cover that's too thick and nasty as Sharptails and Huns like to see and aren't as likely to hide as pheasants. You won't walk by many grouse or partridge like you will pheasants.

When you find birds take note of the cover type grass height, and thickness, available food etc then look for those areas

Grass areas on the edge of wheat stubble and sunflower fields are magnets for sharptails. NEVER pass them up.


I'm jealous

Good luck

[ptrthgr8]

I would not take chances with the gun, even if the dog isn't bothered by it. Make sure to complete the gun intro because gun shyness wouldn't be a good way to start the season.You want a positive association with the gun, and you run the risk of the dog becoming gun shy later on. Always good to be safe than sorry.

Ed incorporated the gun intro as part of Remy's initial training and did some field work with him using all of those gauges. Is there more to the gun intro other than just getting out there and loosing some rounds? Or is it more a matter of getting Remy accustomed to the specific gun I'll be shooting before we hit the field?

~ Greg ~

[ptrthgr8]

I'm jealous

Good luck

All great info, Tom. Thanks very much!

~ Greg ~

[ruffbritt4]

i dont know what his intro consisted of, but i think most guys play fetch with a dead bird ( this method) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc8iO8iemLw

[Gordon Guy]

For what it's worth, There are as many ways to train dogs as there are people with dogs but I would stop playing hide and seek with that training dummy. All you're doing is teaching that dog that when he smells something like a bird to bust in an grab it so he can fetch it to you. Is that what you want to teach a pointing dog? For me, fetch is not the most important thing a pointing dog does, pointing is, retrieving will come later after he learns to point.

have fun.

[ruffbritt4]

For what it's worth, There are as many ways to train dogs as there are people with dogs but I would stop playing hide and seek with that training dummy. All you're doing is teaching that dog that when he smells something like a bird to bust in an grab it so he can fetch it to you. Is that what you want to teach a pointing dog? For me, fetch is not the most important thing a pointing dog does, pointing is, retrieving will come later after he learns to point.

have fun.

+1

[ptrthgr8]

i dont know what his intro consisted of, but i think most guys play fetch with a dead bird ( this method) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc8iO8iemLw

I guess I don't know exactly how Ed works his training program - so he may do something very similar to that video - but when we picked up Remy he (Ed) took us and Remy out into the field (he has a lot of adjacent property he uses for all his training) so he could show us what he had learned. Ed had three pigeons set up at various points in his field in release traps/cages that got tripped when Remy got near them. Bird took off, Ed shot them out of the sky (don't remember if he was using a 12 or 20 at the time), Remy watched them fall from the sky and ran to retrieve them, and brought them right back. Remy showed no signs of distress at all when Ed fired. Remy was focused on the birds the whole time. I'll take care to fire off a couple of rounds when we get to the farm the just to make sure (I'm sure there are some barn swallows that could use a good clearing out anyhow), but based upon Ed's feedback and how Remy reacts around loud noises in town, I don't really think we'll run into any issues with a gun shy dog.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[ptrthgr8]

For what it's worth, There are as many ways to train dogs as there are people with dogs but I would stop playing hide and seek with that training dummy. All you're doing is teaching that dog that when he smells something like a bird to bust in an grab it so he can fetch it to you. Is that what you want to teach a pointing dog? For me, fetch is not the most important thing a pointing dog does, pointing is, retrieving will come later after he learns to point.

have fun.

Hmm. I would never have thought about that - I was just trying to give his nose a bit of practice, but that certainly does make sense. Thanks for the tip!

~ Greg ~

[ruffbritt4]

i dont know what his intro consisted of, but i think most guys play fetch with a dead bird ( this method) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc8iO8iemLw

I guess I don't know exactly how Ed works his training program - so he may do something very similar to that video - but when we picked up Remy he (Ed) took us and Remy out into the field (he has a lot of adjacent property he uses for all his training) so he could show us what he had learned. Ed had three pigeons set up at various points in his field in release traps/cages that got tripped when Remy got near them. Bird took off, Ed shot them out of the sky (don't remember if he was using a 12 or 20 at the time), Remy watched them fall from the sky and ran to retrieve them, and brought them right back. Remy showed no signs of distress at all when Ed fired. Remy was focused on the birds the whole time. I'll take care to fire off a couple of rounds when we get to the farm the just to make sure (I'm sure there are some barn swallows that could use a good clearing out anyhow), but based upon Ed's feedback and how Remy reacts around loud noises in town, I don't really think we'll run into any issues with a gun shy dog.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

he probably covered the gun intro then, but don't shoot just to make sure.

[Gordon Guy]

For what it's worth, There are as many ways to train dogs as there are people with dogs but I would stop playing hide and seek with that training dummy. All you're doing is teaching that dog that when he smells something like a bird to bust in an grab it so he can fetch it to you. Is that what you want to teach a pointing dog? For me, fetch is not the most important thing a pointing dog does, pointing is, retrieving will come later after he learns to point.

have fun.

Hmm. I would never have thought about that - I was just trying to give his nose a bit of practice, but that certainly does make sense. Thanks for the tip!

~ Greg ~

Once he starts pointing, and you start shooting, he'll get all the practice he needs.

[mtlhdr]

If Ed shot birds for your dog I'm guessing he did a proper gun intro. Call him to be sure. He knows your dog better than anyone on this forum and probably even you

As hard as it may be, don't shoot any birds Remy doesn't point solidly until you flush. Especially if he's currently breaking on birds. This season, his first, is about him and not you.

Follow the advice of your trainer, from my understanding he's a good one.

[ruffbritt4]

If Ed shot birds for your dog I'm guessing he did a proper gun intro. Call him to be sure. He knows your dog better than anyone on this forum and probably even you

As hard as it may be, don't shoot any birds Remy doesn't point solidly until you flush. Especially if he's currently breaking on birds. This season, his first, is about him and not you.

Follow the advice of your trainer, from my understanding he's a good one.

Great advise! It is definitely hard to let a bird go but its the right thing to do. then when your dog points until flush and you knock it down, they catch on and learn to point till flush. letting the non pointed birds fly will pay off.

[blanked]

If you get any kind of a point out of him, shoot. This lets the dog know sharptails are what your after and together you are a team. Once he learns that he will point and hold birds for you. Your trainer may have been using pigeons or bobs so one issue is the dog may not know what your after until you kill some birds for him

[BigShooter]

I've never used Ed but I've heard from reliable sources he's very good. If he said he introduced Remy to gunfire without a problem do not do any shooting around Remy except in a hunting situation when he is focused on pointing birds. A number of Weims are pretty content to walk a short distance in front of you so don't worry if he doesn't range far out. Most pointing dogs will get "birdy" when they catch scent. In other words they'll act intense & animated. I've seen Weims who are so subtle that unless you are watching the dog very closely you'll miss it getting birdy. Some will simply stop & stand still for a point. You may not see a classic, extremely intense point, with a high tail. Use this hunt to learn how your dog looks and reacts to bird scent. It'll be hard but focus on the dog first & shooting birds second.

[JonnyNC]

What time of day to hunt really depends on the weather, how cool or warm it is. But generally I would hunt 2 hrs in the morning and 2 hrs late afternoon/evening. It sounds like you'll just be using one dog so you don't want to wear him out.

As far tactics and what to look for, I would say that you should look for areas with sufficient cover to provide protection from predators but not so thick that the birds can't see and feed. Also, in my experience Huns like a variety of cover so if you see something like crp with nearby crops, that's probably a good starting point Do some scouting on an atv later in the evening and see where they are loafing around and then hunt those areas the next day. With 3 days you should be able to find some good areas. Good luck and be sure and post some pics.

[Fieldwalker]

Not purposely hi-jacking the thread but.... I am a little confused.. after a 7 week training program your dog would bump/flush into a pigeon launcher and then the trainer would pop the bird and reward the dog for a non-point?

Anyone who's been around enough dogs training knows that some dogs don't care for some of the pen birds... but you still need to teach a dog to be honest. What was covered in 7 weeks? Whoa and fetch? If a pointing dog isn't pointing than why was retreive even brought up?

Back to the topic. Everyone has given good advise (especially the part about grass/sloughs next to wheat stubble). My suggestion would be to not be afraid to venture off your private land if you're not moving birds often and regularly. Too much good hunting in that area to over commit.

[ptrthgr8]

If a pointing dog isn't pointing than why was retreive even brought up?

Guess I can't answer that question - I'm completely new to bird dogs and hunting in general. Ed came highly recommended from the breeder (a few of her Weims have been trained by Ed) and every review I read online was very positive. Ed said that Remy was doing everything right (though sometimes somewhat stubbornly), but he just wasn't pointing. May turn out that Remy's simply not a pointer after all. Or it may turn out that he's like the other PM Weims that Ed has trained - no pointing at all during training, but become natural pointers when getting out with the wild birds. I guess I'll find out.

On a related note, I just got an open invite from a friend's mom and dad to do some hunting on their farmland this year. They're a little less than an hour away from town, so the proximity will be awesome! She said her dad doesn't do any bird hunting (they're mostly deer hunters), so I'll pretty much be the only person hunting upland game on that property this year. Her dad said he's not seen any grouse recently, but tons of dove, partridge, and pheasant. The dove and partridge season opens in September, so I'll get the chance to go scout the land and get some practice on dove and partridge before the pheasant opener in October. My friend took a few photos for me while she was visiting her parents over the weekend. Here's a quick view of the land we'll be working this year:












Definitely getting excited to get out there! I just wish I hadn't waited so long to get the hunting bug. But I suppose late is better than never.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[Fieldwalker]

Welcome to the addiction!

The best part about owning a gun dog is everything really boils down to your expectations. Just because someone hunts with more of a "meat dog" than a highly polished/finished dog doesn't mean the trips are any less fun.

[weimdogman]

Well it has been 8 years and I see you recently visited the forum,how has Remy done? I have 3 weims and me female spent 2 months with a pro trainer and never pointed a bird. Got her in the field and she is a staue on pheasants. Hope you had the same experience!

[mask]

To many people shooting can cause a lot of training to go out the window with a young dog. I would recommend one shooter at a time. Good hunting.

[weimdogman]

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[Sharon]

and he looks very happy with his successes.