But wait ... what would you pay?

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Vision
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by Vision » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:05 am

Neil wrote:
Vision wrote:
Neil wrote:If you are going to hunt quail in Texas, you are going to pay.

In time it will be that way throughout the country. There is no logic in expecting taxpayers to furnish us with land and game to hunt. Private landowners should be compensated.

Private landowners are compensated with subsidies, price supports, land bank payments, lower green belt taxes, grazing allotments on state and federal lands, etc all paid for by the taxpayer. What the farmer needs is a good dose of reality on who actually pays his way.
Are you suggesting that if a landowner accepts any government subsidies they must allow everyone hunting access to their land?

Yes

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by Vision » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:23 am

Neil wrote:but no one will ever gain access without my permission. NO ONE! How can any freedom loving person promote free access to privately owned land, think about it?
I have thought about it.


Real Freedom includes freedom from burdensome taxes collected under the threat of violence.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:09 am

Back here, in Wi., we have farm and woodland designated Forest Crop Land. The land owner (farmer) gets reduced tax rates in return for opening his land to recreational use, hiking, hunting, fishing. He also cannot be sued for any injury occuring on his land.

Don't see why it should be any different anywhere else.
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by Neil » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:26 am

Seriously! Do you guys own any land? Even if it is just a lot in suburbia, if you take the mortgage interest deduction you are receiving a subsidy. So I should be allowed to pitch a tent in your front yard and camp out?

I really am interested in your thought process.

Please understand I am very much in favor of hunting license fees being used for Walk In Areas, Pitman-Robinson purchased or leased land, and a cessation of over grazing of Fed Grasslands. But I just can't understand taking control of private land. Help me.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:00 am

Nope. You can't camp on land like FCL, you can't damage land like FCL, you can't abuse land like FCL, you can't trap on FCL. That means when you use it there is NO bursh cutting, NO tree steps in trees, NO permanent tree stands, NO fence cutting, etc. You can USE it you cannot ABUSE it. Works well back here. Don't know why it isn't like that everywhere.
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by markj » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:07 am

We obviously will never agree on this Neil, but if a tax payer is going to subsidize a farmers land, a farmers crop insurance and a farmers crop price, then that farmer gives up the right to exclusive use of his land.
I must dis agree 100% with this statement. Um, go out and buy 80 acres, pay for it, work it, then come back and let me know if you still feel this way.

Why not go get a list of farmrs and the amount of subsidy they recieve, knock on their door and make the statement you made here. :) Let me film it too.. I had bud did that, we were out hunting land I had access to. He gets into a discussion with teh farmer about this, he had the amount he gov gave him etc. Well I cant ever go back there :(

Land belongs to teh landowner, get out and become one.
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by nikegundog » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:58 am

markj wrote:
We obviously will never agree on this Neil, but if a tax payer is going to subsidize a farmers land, a farmers crop insurance and a farmers crop price, then that farmer gives up the right to exclusive use of his land.
I must dis agree 100% with this statement. Um, go out and buy 80 acres, pay for it, work it, then come back and let me know if you still feel this way.

Why not go get a list of farmrs and the amount of subsidy they recieve, knock on their door and make the statement you made here. :) Let me film it too.. I had bud did that, we were out hunting land I had access to. He gets into a discussion with teh farmer about this, he had the amount he gov gave him etc. Well I cant ever go back there :(

Land belongs to teh landowner, get out and become one.
Mark, we have those discussions all the time here, I grew up in a farm family and live in a farm community don't know to many farmers who get upset about discussing it as long as it is done tactfully.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by Vision » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:17 pm

Neil wrote: I really am interested in your thought process.
Farmers gave up control when they went on the dole with the original farm bill in the 30's. Can you just go out and hay your CRP without permission? Can you plant whatever you want on your land? Along with the subsidies came increased regulations controlling every aspect of farming.

I don't think anybody is advocating that farmers give up private property rights, but the original question was concerning payments for access. I personally feel that if my tax dollars fund your lifestyle then you should not be able to receive payment for access. I am okay with farmers requiring permission and limiting access to areas around livestock, and buildings. It would be nice for farmers to recognize who is behind those subsidy payments. Money coming from my pocket into your pocket through an intermediary does not make the intermediary the benevolent giver.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by Grange » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:14 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Back here, in Wi., we have farm and woodland designated Forest Crop Land. The land owner (farmer) gets reduced tax rates in return for opening his land to recreational use, hiking, hunting, fishing. He also cannot be sued for any injury occuring on his land.

Don't see why it should be any different anywhere else.
Here's a link to mapping software for FCL and MFL lands open to the public.
http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/forestlandowner ... icapp.html

Once you're enrolled you can opt out but you have to pay a fee and withdrawl tax unless you're a mining company.

As a tax payer I fully support the government buying lands for me to hunt birds.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by markj » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:54 am

Mark, we have those discussions all the time here, I grew up in a farm family and live in a farm community don't know to many farmers who get upset about discussing it as long as it is done tactfully
I live on a farm, my Dad has a farm.....land isnt cheap, neither is equipment. Some folks see a combine just sitting, they shoot it up. Why? I dont know but it sure makes it hard to let folks you dont know hunt on your land.

What wasnt tactfull about my reply? I have had city folk come out, drive by an shoot out the window at a pheas or deer. Every season on deer guys from town drive up and down the road looking for deer to shoot. These are just two reasons why most land owners do not want folks on their land. If the landowner leases it out they do so to someone that will treat it as their own so Isee a huge benifit for that. Times change and we must change with the times. Pay to hunt? No, I still have land open to me I get to hunt on. I dont take others tho.
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by Quailtail » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:43 pm

I have read with interest the various posts and different opions of paying the land owner to hunt. I am a land owner and I do not charge people to hunt. The land is managed for wildlife. I have not been successful in establishing quail on my property but have deer. turkey, and cottontail rabbits.

What I do hate to see is someone asking to hunt and then I find him and 4 other guys with him. 2 or 3 rabbits is plenty for any hunter. Multiply that by 4 or 5 hunters and then you have lost 15 to 20 rabbits in one day of hunting. Not fair to my other friends that like to hunt. Same way with deer and turkey. I hate to see game wiped out by the greedy hunters. There are a lot of them. They find more pleasure in shooting than having good dog work or a good day in the field.

I bird hunt. I hunt for the pleasure of watching my dogs. I want to kill some birds for them but, if I want to shoot, I go to the sporting clays range.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by SetterNut » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:16 pm

I bought some land this past year. I had the PF biologist out to see what I can do to improve the bird population on the place. The Biologist is going to give me some options, some of which include government assistance to help pay for them.

If I have to let anyone hunt on my land that wants to, to take advantage of a program that I am already paying taxes to support, there is no way I would do that. It is my land, I bought it, and I will control who has access to it. My family and friends will have access to it, and others that I feel will respect my property and my right to control my property.
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by cjhills » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:59 pm

One thing that upsets members of Pheasants Forever is seeing PF signs with No Hunting signs on the same land........................Cj

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:17 pm

CJ I understand that we have QF signs in side a state park where their is no hunting allowed but on the wildlife areas & hunting areas no QF. :? Also Wild Turkey Federation signs the same way, they say it will spill over & every yr they make more & more of the state land no hunting.That's one of the reasons I no longer belong.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by KsHusker » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:59 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Paying to hunt is an abhorrent practice that is destroying hunting for all future generations.

Everyone has their rights, but I do agree with the above statement. In the name of the almighty dollar we are killing the heritage and the sport.



A lot of the pay to play mindset is about how many birds you can pile up on your tailgate or how many inches of antler you can kill at the corn feeder while playing games on your cell phone in your heated blind. To be honest what I really enjoy hearing about is the aftermath of the idiot landowner that will lease his land out to Billy Bob from, Louisiana, Texas or whatever southern or east coast state you can think of. He brings all 20 of his buddies for 2-3 years in a row, kills anything with antlers, completely screws up the genetics, gets the doe to buck population completely out of whack, and then he moves on to the next lease to do it all over again. So I do take a little solace and pleasure out of Farmer John asking what happened to all of his nice bucks and wondering why he has 20 basket racks running themselves literally to death chasing around 100 does who eat his wheat field down to the roots during the winter time all the while running into and screwing up his electric fence he put up to keep his cattle on the corn stocks during the winter? Absolutely.

The whitetail mania, Texas lease money mindset and Spook Spans of the world are what will ruin hunting in the state I call home....they are fast on their way to doing so. I have zero interest in hunting white tails here unless its to fill the freezer for some meat. For now I'll stick to Mulies. When the State of KS pimps them to out of staters I'll have to think long and hard about moving away. Anyone that bird hunts here does not want our state to pimp out the mule deer. You can kiss all of your western KS WIHA area good bye.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by SpringerDude » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:03 am

To think that a farmer is obligated to let folks roam his land due to taking government subsidies is just crazy. If you want to hunt, go buy your own land. If you want subsidies, then take them and see if you still want to let folks use your land for free. At least in this country if you want to buy land, you can. If you don't want the year round work to keep up the land and the cost to manage it correctly, then you have to hunt public land or "pay to play".

People don't like released birds but that is what a lot of folks hunt in some pheasant states. The raised birds help take pressure off the wild bird population. For the cost of a trip out west, a guy can make several trips to a local game farm to put his dog on birds. You don't pay for "birds in the bag" you are paying to have a chance to put your dog on birds and a chance to shoot at the birds. It is all about our entertainment. I would think most of us are past the need to hunt for food.

Another thought: Some folks will buy tickets to the game or concert while I prefer to watch the game on TV or listen to the music on free radio. I don't go around saying that my taxes for the community helped pay for the stadium so I should get in free.

But here in the USA we do have a choice and we choose where we want to spend our money.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by cutty72 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:54 pm

I believe it depends a lot on what you expect when going on to that private land.
Currently, my parents and I own a few hundred tillable acres and a couple hundred acres of pasture land.
We no longer farm, so the tillable is cash rented out, and the pasture is rented to other ranchers.
The land is not managed specifically to increase or hold bird populations, it is used for crop/cattle production. When I hunt it, I can find a few birds here and there, but no large numbers.
I have recently thought about taking some of both the tillable and pasture acres and putting in food plots and otherwise providing quality habitat to upland game birds.
Not only will this cost us money to do, but we will lose the income from the cash rent.
From what I'm reading here, many of you think that we should just eat that cost for your benefit of more game.

I agree, with the current condition of our land, charging would be wrong (and we don't, though we do want people to ask before they go on).
If the time and effort is made to make a quality habitat and bird numbers are increased, at an expense to us, there will be a charge to enter. That charge will be directly related to the costs incurred to make the habitat what it is.
Will the hunters be paying 100% + of the costs... by no means. But they will pay a portion of the cost of the seed, feed, fuel, and bird costs incurred through the year.
It's a give and take. I see a lot of hunters around with 60k+ trucks, thousand dollar + shotguns, thousands of dollar in gear on their bodies, and paying thousands for a dog (before training). If all that money can be invested into the sport, why can't a little be found to support the playing field? I agree that $100 + per person is a little outrageous. $100 for a group of 5-6 people for the weekend, sounds about right to me.

And for those that say "I PAY TAXES!!", stick to the public lands that the tax money goes to.

I'm seeing this from the eyes of a hunter and land owner, so tell me if I'm wrong.

Oh, and yes I do hunt public land. And yes I do pay to hunt others well managed private land.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:49 pm

cutty72 wrote:If all that money can be invested into the sport, why can't a little be found to support the playing field? I agree that $100 + per person is a little outrageous. $100 for a group of 5-6 people for the weekend, sounds about right to me.

And for those that say "I PAY TAXES!!", stick to the public lands that the tax money goes to.

I'm seeing this from the eyes of a hunter and land owner, so tell me if I'm wrong.

Oh, and yes I do hunt public land. And yes I do pay to hunt others well managed private land.
See, I think that's fair. I have no problem paying $50.00 for my son and I to hunt someone's land. $100.00 or more per day per gun just pisses me off.
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by polmaise » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:10 pm

gonehuntin' wrote: Paying to hunt is an abhorrent practice that is destroying hunting for all future generations.
It's been done over here for ''Generations'' !..and growing ? hmm?
But then we have Gamekeepers .

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:54 pm

I can't imagine having to pay someone to hunt. I'd be giving up hunting if that was my only option. I'm sure someday I might go for a guided hunt of some sort but as for just paying to go out and hunt, I would never do it. I also don't like the idea of someone "managing" game for people to shoot. Just seems unethical to me. I see shows on tv all the time of guys hunting farms where they manage deer down in the US and it just doesn't seem right to me. Same with driven shoots in the UK - that is weird to me. I understand that is the only option for some people, but the day I can't head out into the woods and hunt on my own is the day I hang up the gun. Hunting is just that - hunting... Those type of places are just "shooting". To me, hunting is a great day spent out in the woods, preferably with a dog(s) and perhaps with a friend or family member. Actually shooting something is just a bonus. I probably only put something in the bag 30-50% of the time, there's plenty of days I walk for hours and don't see or get a shot at anything. And that's alright with me - it's part of the hunt.
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by polmaise » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:51 pm

I would think that most 'Dog handlers' throughout the world would rather hunt and work their breed(s) rather than just shoot!
The fact will always remain that 'Gundog's' require 'Gun' and 'Dog' !..Shooting over your own dog no matter the breed!..Is the pinnacle of any hunter or dog handler involved with gundog breeds! (imo)..the more one moves from this ,the more the 'Games begin'!!!?
Now ,it may not be the way in the states or Canada to pay for shooting!....but if you ain't got the game or the shooting for your dog in your back yard, then you need to get the game ?...and if you want competition dogs ready for that game ?.....You ain't gonna find it on main street!..just saying!

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:58 pm

polmaise wrote:I would think that most 'Dog handlers' throughout the world would rather hunt and work their breed(s) rather than just shoot!
The fact will always remain that 'Gundog's' require 'Gun' and 'Dog' !..Shooting over your own dog no matter the breed!..Is the pinnacle of any hunter or dog handler involved with gundog breeds! (imo)..the more one moves from this ,the more the 'Games begin'!!!?
Now ,it may not be the way in the states or Canada to pay for shooting!....but if you ain't got the game or the shooting for your dog in your back yard, then you need to get the game ?...and if you want competition dogs ready for that game ?.....You ain't gonna find it on main street!..just saying!
Didn't mean to sound disrespectful polmaise, I know it is much different over there. It just seems so 'out there' to me. Most of my life I've just been able to head out the back door and into the woods to hunt. Currently I am living in town, but I am still only a 10 minute drive from stepping foot onto land that I can hunt.
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by ckirsch » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:29 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote:[quote="Vision

Private landowners are compensated with subsidies, price supports, land bank payments, lower green belt taxes, grazing allotments on state and federal lands, etc all paid for by the taxpayer. What the farmer needs is a good dose of reality on who actually pays his way.
^^^YES^^^

In addition, to the fact that every acre of CRP of government set aside is a cash rent payment by the federal govt. That certainly isnt coming out of the piggy banks of any senators. Sure its compensation for taking land out of production, but our CRP ground makes as much or more than some of our crop land. We sure as heck know who pays our bills, or in the case of the govt shut down, we knew who wasn't.

I would say that any farmer/land owner who is charging someone to hunt by the day or season should be required to pay an income tax on what they make. further more if they are charging me to hunt than they should also by law be required to carry proof of some form of LLC as well as Insurance to cover any injuries I may incure while on their land.

Jim[/quote]

Wow, lots of animosity towards landowners. Regarding your demand for insurance coverage, I doubt there are many access-charging landowners who don't carry liability insurance. Some rancher asks you for a hundred bucks to spend a day hunting a couple million dollars' worth of his land, on which he's paying many thousands of dollars in property taxes each year, and you'd hold him responsible if you stepped in a badger hole and broke your ankle, or shot yourself while crawling over a fence with gun in hand? Landowners actually need liability coverage even if they don't charge for hunting access, because someone with an attitude like that might still believe the landowner, in spite of his hospitality, is responsible for "any injuries incurred while on their land". Some of these posts actually make a great case for not allowing any type of access, or at the very least to charge more than enough to cover insurance costs along with any potential litigation.

I sure don't expect anyone else to pay today's land prices, provide the habitat, pay the taxes, and then roll out the red carpet and let me hunt for free.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:56 pm

Plus the farmer provides a year worth of feed to raise that bird or animal.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by Sasquatch » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:17 am

I pay a club a few hundred dollars a year to hunt ducks on some local fields. I think it's a bargain and frankly would pay more. I get out 10 or 15 times a year and instead of the time, gas and wear and tear on my vehicle, I can hunt close by and be home by lunch.
Would be impossible to do otherwise and would require more driving and likely much more money.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by nikegundog » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:35 am

ckirsch wrote:

Wow, lots of animosity towards landowners. Regarding your demand for insurance coverage, I doubt there are many access-charging landowners who don't carry liability insurance. Some rancher asks you for a hundred bucks to spend a day hunting a couple million dollars' worth of his land, on which he's paying many thousands of dollars in property taxes each year, and you'd hold him responsible if you stepped in a badger hole and broke your ankle, or shot yourself while crawling over a fence with gun in hand? Landowners actually need liability coverage even if they don't charge for hunting access, because someone with an attitude like that might still believe the landowner, in spite of his hospitality, is responsible for "any injuries incurred while on their land". Some of these posts actually make a great case for not allowing any type of access, or at the very least to charge more than enough to cover insurance costs along with any potential litigation.

I sure don't expect anyone else to pay today's land prices, provide the habitat, pay the taxes, and then roll out the red carpet and let me hunt for free.
In MN we have laws protecting land owners from such liability (as long as no money is exchanged) and it was my understanding that SD had the same laws, are you sure this is not the case in SD?

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by ckirsch » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:54 am

There are some protections, but those with a philosophy like some who've posted on this thread could still make life miserable for a landowner. After saving for many years, a friend and I purchased a couple of quarters in prime pheasant ground here in South Dakota. Our attorney insists that we have liability coverage, even though we don't collect any access fees. Someone drives into a creek, steps in a hole, or accidentally shoots their trespassing buddy, and they can still find ways to sue. The disrespect and sense of entitlement some folks have for others' property is disappointing. We drive a couple of hours to get to our place, and often find evidence that some trespasser hunted it the day before.

Even if a landowner does accept subsides (we currently don't), it's surprising that some feel they should have unlimited access to that person's land. Curious if a homeowner has a govt-subsidized mortgage, or is on housing assistance, do these same folks believe they should have access to that person's subsidized home?

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by SpringerDude » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:22 am

It is amazing that folks feel like they should have access to land due to taxes being flowed through the government and then back to the farmer in subsidies. Wow. If you would like to participate in these programs, then go buy yourself a farm, get you some government payments, and have your own place to hunt.

After you have taken care of this farm all year providing habitat for the wildlife, raising a crop to help pay the loan payment, putting up fence, etc., let's see if you will open it up to whoever wants to come walk around and shoot your game.

I hunt public land and it amazes me the trash I pick up that other folks have left behind. When folks don't have anything "invested" in the land, they don't treat the land kindly. Some folks don't even keep their yards cleaned up much less feel obligated to take care of public land they have access to use.

If you want private land to hunt, go help work the land. Show some interest in taking care of their farm. Here is a novel idea: make a financial contribution to the farmer to help pay for fuel or chemicals or seed to make the farm a better hunting place for you to enjoy.

After you have spent some time "walking in their shoes", then you might have a different opinion.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:30 am

I disagree with taxing landowners allowing people to hunt their land. That is their land, and if they're being good enough to allow you to hunt it (even if they ask for some compensation) they should not be taxed. I know if someone wanted to hunt my land and I charged them a certain amount and then I was taxed.... well, you better believe I wouldn't be allowing anyone else to hunt it. You should just be thankful they are allowing you on their land.
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by buckshot1 » Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:45 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:I disagree with taxing landowners allowing people to hunt their land. That is their land, and if they're being good enough to allow you to hunt it (even if they ask for some compensation) they should not be taxed. I know if someone wanted to hunt my land and I charged them a certain amount and then I was taxed.... well, you better believe I wouldn't be allowing anyone else to hunt it. You should just be thankful they are allowing you on their land.
Technically, landowners in the US are supposed to pay taxes on any income they receive, even if it's a few bucks in cash paid by some guys to hunt their land. But I doubt very many report it as income.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:25 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:I disagree with taxing landowners allowing people to hunt their land. That is their land, and if they're being good enough to allow you to hunt it (even if they ask for some compensation) they should not be taxed. I know if someone wanted to hunt my land and I charged them a certain amount and then I was taxed.... well, you better believe I wouldn't be allowing anyone else to hunt it. You should just be thankful they are allowing you on their land.
I don't think that a land owner should let people hunt because he pays taxes; heck, we ALL pay taxes. It's only if he receives subsidies from the govt. to NOT farm the land, which in most cases won't grow squat anyhow. That's why it was in the program in the first place.
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by KsHusker » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:08 pm

cutty72 wrote:I believe it depends a lot on what you expect when going on to that private land.
Currently, my parents and I own a few hundred tillable acres and a couple hundred acres of pasture land.
We no longer farm, so the tillable is cash rented out, and the pasture is rented to other ranchers.
The land is not managed specifically to increase or hold bird populations, it is used for crop/cattle production. When I hunt it, I can find a few birds here and there, but no large numbers.
I have recently thought about taking some of both the tillable and pasture acres and putting in food plots and otherwise providing quality habitat to upland game birds.
Not only will this cost us money to do, but we will lose the income from the cash rent.
From what I'm reading here, many of you think that we should just eat that cost for your benefit of more game.

I agree, with the current condition of our land, charging would be wrong (and we don't, though we do want people to ask before they go on).
If the time and effort is made to make a quality habitat and bird numbers are increased, at an expense to us, there will be a charge to enter. That charge will be directly related to the costs incurred to make the habitat what it is.
Will the hunters be paying 100% + of the costs... by no means. But they will pay a portion of the cost of the seed, feed, fuel, and bird costs incurred through the year.
It's a give and take. I see a lot of hunters around with 60k+ trucks, thousand dollar + shotguns, thousands of dollar in gear on their bodies, and paying thousands for a dog (before training). If all that money can be invested into the sport, why can't a little be found to support the playing field? I agree that $100 + per person is a little outrageous. $100 for a group of 5-6 people for the weekend, sounds about right to me.

And for those that say "I PAY TAXES!!", stick to the public lands that the tax money goes to.

I'm seeing this from the eyes of a hunter and land owner, so tell me if I'm wrong.

Oh, and yes I do hunt public land. And yes I do pay to hunt others well managed private land.


I get what you are saying Cutty --- but the argument aside I dont know how much of a habitat nut or study you are of the habitat, But Im sure with some minor changes that would probably cost next to nothing in farming practices etc you could get your place to hold more birds. Im not a habitat expert nor do I profess to be one, however with a lifetime spent hunting/observing wildlife I think I know a little bit. Id be glad to review some photos or google earth images to help you brainstorm if this is something you havent done.

As to the original argument I dont think money in bird hunting is ruining the sport, I think the money in deer hunting is. At least it is here in KS in my opinion. Its kind of a double edged sword with the factor of involving money. If you price a lot of people out or turn them off from the sport entirely you are not going to have any new hunting recruitment, which in turn leads to less people even caring about wildlife, gun rights, hunting issues etc. People need to look out many years in advance, not just the dollar signs and the here and now. Farming practices are one thing IMO that hurt wildlife a lot. Make some subtle changes there and you will see positive results.


As for charging for hunting and to others who think they "own" the wildlife, well then when Joe Smith hits a deer or a pheasant that flew off/ran off of your property and damages his vehicle....then in accordance with the livestock laws in place the landowner or the landowners insurance company should be liable for the damage caused by said wildlife he/she "owned". I dont think you should be able to have your cake and eat it too. There shouldnt be a grey area with this. If you are going to charge $5k for a deer hunt to shoot a trophy that you own/feed and reap an economic gain, then you should be economically punished when one of your animals causes damage to someone elses property. Just my thoughts on the subject. If you allow hunting and dont charge a trespass fee well then you should be free of all economic liability.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by ckirsch » Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:01 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:when Joe Smith hits a deer or a pheasant that flew off/ran off of your property and damages his vehicle....then in accordance with the livestock laws in place the landowner or the landowners insurance company should be liable for the damage caused by said wildlife he/she "owned".
Incredible.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:15 pm

ckirsch wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:when Joe Smith hits a deer or a pheasant that flew off/ran off of your property and damages his vehicle....then in accordance with the livestock laws in place the landowner or the landowners insurance company should be liable for the damage caused by said wildlife he/she "owned".
Incredible.
I would really appreciate it you wouldn't alter my posts to day something I never said. I get in enough trouble here all by myself without someone falsely editing my posts.
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by bobman » Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:26 am

I think farmers should be able to say who can go on their land and allow no one if they choose. Private property rights should be protected.

However unlike Europe game animals are not the property of the land owner, if you doubt that shoot one of "your deer" in June in front of a CO and see how it works out.

Based on that well established common law in the USA (that game animals are the property of the state IE the public) I don't think they should be able to sell the publics game animals its just another form of market hunting. And don't give me that BS they are sell "access" and not the publics animals because we all know if its a tilled field barren of cover they couldn't get a nickel for the "access".

So I repeat if you don't want anyone on you land that's fine with me but you should not be able to sell game animals they aren't the property of the land owner, selling something you don't own is theft.

The farm bill is a pork laden bunch of BS and should be repealed , farmers and all other corporations for that matter should not get subsidies they should stand on their own merits. Those idiots in Washington have demonstrated nothing but corruption and respond only to the lobbyists not to the taxpayers, they are only interested in lining their own pockets.

The whole thing was well intended but has become a corrupt mess, those liars in congress should not be picking winners and losers. Most of the farm bill budget doesn't have a darn thing to do with farming.

I will never pay a dime to hunt the publics game animals ever.

The farther we get from the constitution the more in danger we are of losing the country and look around that danger is very real at the moment...we are broke actually worse than broke.
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by JWP58 » Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:39 pm

Its my opinion and only an opinion but.....

I find it hilarious that the farming/ranching crowd thinks its totally fine to receive all of these tax breaks, subsidies, ect, but whine when people call them out on it. Yes, we are subsidizing your way of life because apparently you're overhead is to high to go without the gov't kickbacks in order to stay afloat.

BUT I don't think they should be forced to allow people to use their land, I just don't think they should be getting the $$$$ in the first place. I don't get help from anyone when I cant fix my car, or pay for my rent, or pay for this or that (which is why I make, more than I spend..crazy idea). But if I was a poor ol' dirt farmer it would be ok to get some gov't money? Not in my book. But hey, somebody's got to pay for daddy's 60k dollar diesel pickup...not to mention the farm equipment, mamas 50k Caddy, ect, ect....you cant expect to those poor ol' dirt farmers to on what they make. So I guess WE might as well......

Just another form of "working the system"....it isn't only the "inner city" crowd that does it....trust me.

Also as I stated earlier, I'd be more than willing to pay for a place to hunt that I knew had birds. If it was within an hour or two I'd probably pay 50-100 a day...and I'd close the gates and pick up my trash. Honestly I'd pay 50 a day just to work my dog on wild birds and shoot them with my DSLR! So if you're near SE WY/ NE CO and want to make a buck, PM me lol
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by Retiredbirddogman » Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 am

Reminds me of years ago when I was contacted by a "friend of a friend" to see if I would guide them on three days of pheasant hunting. They offered to pay me $100/gun for three of them. I declined the offer, because I didn't want to get pay per hunt started in my area. Wanted my G-kids to be able to hunt locally without needing to have discretionary funds to do so. I did offer to take the three of them hunting, without charging them a dime. The response was; will you guarantee we will get birds. My answer was, "this is wild bird hunting". I think you will do alright but you never know when hunting wild birds. They then ask if I knew anyone that might guide them. I laughed and said I was sorry but I couldn't help them out.
I think this story says a lot about what some people are looking for. I would have taken them to the same places for "free" as they were willing to pay $100/gun/day for, but, it was the guarantee of killing limits that they were most interested in.
Yesterday I hunted for three hours. My DD pointed two hens and then I found him in tall grass (using my GPS) standing tall. Kicked up a Rooster in front of him and he brought it back. Basically, hunted 1/2 day and one bird in the bag. It was a great day, but then I don't need a limit for it to be a great day.
Thanks for listening

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by ckirsch » Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:55 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
ckirsch wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:when Joe Smith hits a deer or a pheasant that flew off/ran off of your property and damages his vehicle....then in accordance with the livestock laws in place the landowner or the landowners insurance company should be liable for the damage caused by said wildlife he/she "owned".
Incredible.
I would really appreciate it you wouldn't alter my posts to day something I never said. I get in enough trouble here all by myself without someone falsely editing my posts.
Sorry about that, not sure how that quote ended up as yours. My apologies.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by Deets » Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:59 am

Golfers pay to play golf, why would you expect to hunt for free.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by blanked » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:36 pm

Down in south Texas where the quail populations are still good a seasonal lease is $8 - $12 an acre. And you can't hunt until the season 2/3 over. Deer hunters take priority. What you have to realize it isn't the single bird hunter with his buddies paying that. Oh no no no. It's the presidents and CEO s of money making companies that use company funds to take clients out quail hunting. The rest of Texas where there are no birds or if your lucky and find a pocket the rate is $2 an acre. Again this is managed for the deer hunters

If your not finding birds or finding a few copies a day and covering a lot of land you can cover 500 to 1000 acres. For one day only. Of course who wants to drive clear down there for just one day hunt and who wants to hunt the exact same area if bird numbers are poor. So now your leasing another 500 to 1000 acres for each day

It's pitiful

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by JWP58 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:18 pm

Retiredbirddogman wrote:Reminds me of years ago when I was contacted by a "friend of a friend" to see if I would guide them on three days of pheasant hunting. They offered to pay me $100/gun for three of them. I declined the offer, because I didn't want to get pay per hunt started in my area. Wanted my G-kids to be able to hunt locally without needing to have discretionary funds to do so. I did offer to take the three of them hunting, without charging them a dime. The response was; will you guarantee we will get birds. My answer was, "this is wild bird hunting". I think you will do alright but you never know when hunting wild birds. They then ask if I knew anyone that might guide them. I laughed and said I was sorry but I couldn't help them out.
I think this story says a lot about what some people are looking for. I would have taken them to the same places for "free" as they were willing to pay $100/gun/day for, but, it was the guarantee of killing limits that they were most interested in.
Yesterday I hunted for three hours. My DD pointed two hens and then I found him in tall grass (using my GPS) standing tall. Kicked up a Rooster in front of him and he brought it back. Basically, hunted 1/2 day and one bird in the bag. It was a great day, but then I don't need a limit for it to be a great day.
Thanks for listening
Amen, if that was the case I would've stopped before I started.
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:36 pm

ckirsch wrote:There are some protections, but those with a philosophy like some who've posted on this thread could still make life miserable for a landowner. After saving for many years, a friend and I purchased a couple of quarters in prime pheasant ground here in South Dakota. Our attorney insists that we have liability coverage, even though we don't collect any access fees. Someone drives into a creek, steps in a hole, or accidentally shoots their trespassing buddy, and they can still find ways to sue. The disrespect and sense of entitlement some folks have for others' property is disappointing. We drive a couple of hours to get to our place, and often find evidence that some trespasser hunted it the day before.

Even if a landowner does accept subsides (we currently don't), it's surprising that some feel they should have unlimited access to that person's land. Curious if a homeowner has a govt-subsidized mortgage, or is on housing assistance, do these same folks believe they should have access to that person's subsidized home?


Everyone in this country is subsidized in one way or another so that is a bogus argument.

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But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by Frankug » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:27 pm

I am a farmer/rancher tax paying land owning dog hunting fool. I can guarantee that I have never thought that my tax dollars have gone to give me permission to hunt somebody else's land. Seems there is a gripe about the farmer/rancher landowner crowd that is quite offensive to me. We are the ones holding the earth together for wildlife. I have fifteen dogs and yes I pay to hunt. If you have one dog to feed you are already paying to hunt. I put a ton of effort into wildlife habitat on my property and no one is footing the bill and enduring the back breaking work except me. I will pay to hunt in the future someone else's land by dollars or doing work for him at my cost. Tighten your boot straps this is not a free handout from the Government sport. You have to pay to play. I have friends with dogs that hunt my property all the time with no charge. They are my friends and they hunt by my rules. One thing keeping the people who think they have rights to my land off my land is LIABILITY. Unfortunately it is not the days of yesteryear, my grandfather roamed around hunting any where he could get permission, no charge. Those days are gone thanks to Lawyers. If you have a gripe about what some landowner is doing with their land, my advice to you is go and by your own land and do whatever you want. Don't tell me what to do with mine.

I recently read an article that stated only 8% of the U.S. population considers themselves to be a hunter. With 92% of the population not passionate about hunting, We stand to lose our rights as hunters by that means quicker than by what landowners do. Take somebody hunting. Hunters are the greatest conservationist.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by JWP58 » Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:47 pm

Frankug wrote:. If you have a gripe about what some landowner is doing with their land, my advice to you is go and by your own land and do whatever you want. Don't tell me what to do with mine. .
That's a good idea, heck if I study the tax code, grants, subsidies, ect, enough I just might get it for dang near free! Well free for me, might as well let all the suckers pay for it right? Oh and the crop insurance, I could bank off of that too.

But that's ok, because soon enough all that govt $$$$ is going to dry up.....then we'll see folks "tighten their boot straps", might even have to do without their 60k pickup.
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by Neil » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:06 pm

JWP58 wrote:
Frankug wrote:. If you have a gripe about what some landowner is doing with their land, my advice to you is go and by your own land and do whatever you want. Don't tell me what to do with mine. .
That's a good idea, heck if I study the tax code, grants, subsidies, ect, enough I just might get it for dang near free! Well free for me, might as well let all the suckers pay for it right? Oh and the crop insurance, I could bank off of that too.

But that's ok, because soon enough all that govt $$$$ is going to dry up.....then we'll see folks "tighten their boot straps", might even have to do without their 60k pickup.
So why haven't you done the studies, or worked hard enough to be the CEO or a customer? You are free to do so.

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But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by Frankug » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:24 pm

Government money is surely going to dry up. The same people who think they have entitlements to my land are bankrupting this country. They aren't making any more land and that is why there is a price on it. Finite resource, enjoy it while it last. I am a hunter that can digest more information than most. I have read the Farm Bill, that they can't seem to pass, and no where in there are they giving away land for free. If I missed something then please tell me, I will pass it on to all on this thread. We will all have our own land to hunt then. My Dad always told me: If you are ever sitting around late at night playing cards and you don't know who the sucker is, it's YOU!

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:22 am

Frankug wrote: We are the ones holding the earth together for wildlife.
I know of precous few farmers "holding the earth together for wildlife." Most farm fence row to fence row to make all the money they can, "bleep" the wildlife. In a dry year they mow the cat tail marshes then burn them. They cut the timber for more land to plow. They mow and bale the ditches between the fences and the roads. They poison the water tables with their liquid fertilizers.

Now, I understand them doing all that, everyone wants all the money they can get. Just don't tell me farmers are in any way stewards of the land. I don't know of ONE that's a farms for a living that does a thing to consciously preserve any habitat for animals. Hells bells, why should they? Every animal and bird that eats a kernel of corn or grain from their land is taking money from their pocket. I understand that, I just don't understand them being refered to as steward's of the land. Granted that in states like SD there are a few, very few that farm part of the land, then farm for wildlife on the rest and sell the hunting rights. That's fine with me. They are being stewards and reaping financial benefits as well. There are very few of those.

The vast majority of farmers though are certainly in no way doing the land any favors. They are more rapists than stewards.
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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by mm » Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:22 am

This thread has taken a turn from the original question but even so it interests me. I have a question as you farmers and non farmers argue. This is a question because I don't know the answer I am NOT looking for a fight or trying to start one.

In NY where I live there is less and less farming and now almost no wild pheasants or quail so I travel to Montana and Missouri and I find birds next to the farms. It seems that where there are crops there are birds. So why is farming bad for birds to me it seems to be helpful?
mm

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by nikegundog » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:00 am

mm wrote:This thread has taken a turn from the original question but even so it interests me. I have a question as you farmers and non farmers argue. This is a question because I don't know the answer I am NOT looking for a fight or trying to start one.

In NY where I live there is less and less farming and now almost no wild pheasants or quail so I travel to Montana and Missouri and I find birds next to the farms. It seems that where there are crops there are birds. So why is farming bad for birds to me it seems to be helpful?
mm
Birds need a small amount of cover to get away from the elements, fencelines, old groves, abandoned farm sites, sloughs, etc. provide this, in the last 10 years or so with the value of grain increasing (as well as technology allowing marginal lands to produce better) everything that can be tilled up is being tilled up so fences are being removed groves are pushed in, water is being drained. Farming isn't bad for birds provided cover is there.

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Re: But wait ... what would you pay?

Post by JWP58 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:54 pm

Farming isn't bad for birds. Subsidy farming (and the over production of corn in a failed ethanol experiment) is bad for PEOPLE, not only is our tax money being squandered but we aren't even seeing a return on it. I don't think anyone would say farming is bad for birds, the environment, or anything else.
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