Grouse hunting without a dog

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:46 pm

Has anybody grouse hunted successfully without a dog? Am I nuts for thinking of trying to hunt without a dog this fall?
I know it has been done, I just personally have never done it and since
I probably won't be getting a pup till next year, I don't know what to expect... I am really worried about not being able to find them if I do shoot one, I don't want to lose a grouse and they blend in really well... Should I just duck hunt more this year and hold off till I can get a pup?
Also, 90% of the fun of grouse hunting is watching the dogs work... Man I'm gonna miss that.

Anybody in the bemidji mn area who has a dog wanna go grouse hunting with me? I'll buy breakfast....

P.s. Will trade very attractive girlfriend for well bred hunting dog- let me know what you got, the worst I can do is say no!

ibbowhunting · Post by **ibbowhunting** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:16 pm

you can be very successful hunting grouse in minnestoa without a dog I would bet less then 10% of grouse hunters in Minnesota use a dog

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:20 pm

ibbowhunting wrote:you can be very successful hunting grouse in minnestoa without a dog I would bet less then 10% of grouse hunters in Minnesota use a dog

LIMB SWATTERS!!!!!!! THE LOT A YA!!!!!,

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:12 pm

Minneguy wrote:Has anybody grouse hunted successfully without a dog? Am I nuts for thinking of trying to hunt without a dog this fall? ...

Yes to the first, no to the second.
The process is simply different, the rewards sans pup not as wide or as deep.

But, hunting ruffed grouse w/o a dog is one of the better ways to learn about the bird and it's habitat.
Ethical decisions track each reality.

I suspect though that is not what you wished to hear.

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:41 pm

Do the people who hunt without dogs flush them or shoot them standing? I'm not much for shooting birds on the water or on the branch.... But that's just a personal preference. How would you go about hunting them? Usually I would just go into an area I thought looked good(poplar scrub along a swamp, etc) and send in the dog and follow waiting for her to get birdy... I should find a friend in bemidji who had a good nose and do the same thing lol

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:25 pm

Minneguy wrote:Do the people who hunt without dogs flush them or shoot them standing? ...

Is that a serious question?...one never knows on these message boards.
If serious, it speaks loudly re experience and ethical choices......maybe you equate road hunting with hunting w/o a dog?...I don't know.
Usually you "find a good looking spot and then send in the dog"?
It just gets better.
My doubts increase.

On a serious note, there are many reasons why one may hunt ruffed grouse w/o a dog.
Not having a father that hunted, I still shot my first grouse at 12...self-flushed, flying and w/o a dog.
Not because I wanted to but because that was the reality of a young kid that wanted to go.
And, hunting dogless often builds a keenness for the pursuit and all that tracks it...from the literary angle and beyond....along with building an appreciation of all the extras that a birddog brings into one's life...birdhunting and not.
Success varies though and is related to the viability of one's local population of birds, shooting well, being in the right spot at the right time and, most importantly, being open to learning rather than assuming that only one way is the best way.

The perennial message board question...would you hunt w/o a dog?
Sure, as a way of respecting all the good memories built with birds and friends and...dogs.
It's never the same w/o a dog but it is still buckets better than golf or deer hunting.

Cicada · Post by **Cicada** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:47 pm

ibbowhunting wrote:you can be very successful hunting grouse in minnestoa without a dog I would bet less then 10% of grouse hunters in Minnesota use a dog

The same here in BC one of my hunting buds said it but.... the best bird dog for grouse is a chevy, dodge or a ford and he has bird dogs :roll:

Grant

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:55 pm

Minneguy... When I used to hunt without a dog I would try to catch the grouse transitioning from food/water sources to shelter or catch them eating pebbles... Other than transition times, it's a great wide world and there' are a lot woods to cover. Good luck.

Most ethical hunters will shoot on the wing, but some folks worried more about the bottom line will ground shoot. Your choice really.

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:10 pm

I don't shoot ducks on the water, or birds on the ground.

That's a good tip mnaj_springer!

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:44 pm

Mnaj_springer, where do you find pebbles??? I've never considered using grit to find birds!

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:02 pm

Dirt roads... Creeks... Haha depends where you are. But it has to be close to food and shelter. Other than that, look for poplar grows that are about 15 years old (should be plenty up there) for the habit.

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:33 pm

Awesome, thanks for the tips! I'll look for a logging road and creek beds. I grew up hunting some really decent grouse turf so I actually have a decent idea of what kind of cover will hold grouse ( when numbers are good) but I had never thought about, nor been taught to look for grit. I basically
Have learned everything I know about grouse by trial and error. My dad quit grouse hunting when I was a kid, so I took to the woods with my gun and my dog and started learning. It took me almost 2 years to get my first grouse, but then I started learning more and more and have done pretty well since. Around here, I have hunted the thick cover where the woods makes a transition, logging roads and edges of dense cover around swamps. We have some poplars around here that have been logged off and regrown in different areas, and I have hunted them, but have not found as many grouse in them because they are still so darn thick.

One question I had, I've never shot a spruce grouse. Are they any good to eat? I think thy are a very pretty bird, and would like to get into some of them if possible

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:15 pm

Spruce grouse have red breast meat and seem to be a lot more gamey tasting that ruffies.

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:57 pm

Ah, so maybe I don't need to shoot one lol

Cicada · Post by **Cicada** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:29 am

mnaj_springer wrote:Spruce grouse have red breast meat and seem to be a lot more gamey tasting that ruffies.

They are fine if they have not been eating pine needles; so get one early in the season when the huckleberries are still on the bush.

Grant

aulrich · Post by **aulrich** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:41 am

Over the years I had shot plenty of grouse without a dog, a good trail and a 22 was lots of fun. So obviously not a lot of wing shooting.

Using a bow is a lot of fun too.

In my experience the only folks who wing shoot grouse on purpose have dogs.

ibbowhunting · Post by **ibbowhunting** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:20 pm

take a walk 1 hour before dark on a dirt logging road or a packed atv trail I bet you find some grouse, shoot um how you want, I won't judge you

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:23 pm

shoot um how you want, I won't judge you

I will. For me it has to be on the wing otherwise it's not sport...

For the original question it's real simple
No hound?
No hunt...

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:38 pm

Minneguy... You hunt how you like. Take note of how the Minnesotans answered your question. All those non-residents can complain in their own state

aulrich · Post by **aulrich** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:41 pm

Must me nice to be able to hunt in the landscaping of the hotel

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:18 am

Quill, once again you come up with the awesome pics lol

I choose not to shot grouse on the branch, or the ground. Mostly because that's how I was raised.

On the plus side, my Aussie has been working hard this week retrieving a frozen grouse... (And freeing squirrels on our hikes lol )Makes me hopeful for the fall!

He even flushed one up yesterday on a piece of state land not far from here, he actually sniffed it out and kicked it up, so who knows.

Uplandish · Post by **Uplandish** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:30 am

As many legendary grouse hunters have mentioned " more grouse have been killed with boot leather than anything else"

Off the ground, on a branch, in the air, by yourself, with a pointer, with a setter, with a flusher. If its legal and SAFE the choice is yours and don't lose any sleep worrying about other people trying to make you conform to their own values. Personally swatting a bird off the ground doesn't sound that safe too me ( even though millions are collected this way) you never know who or what is on the other side of that grouse you are shooting at.

WIthout a dog you just have to make some sacrifices people with dogs don't think about much. Like you have hiked all day and the only shot you get is a bird that flushes out over a pond, don't shoot unless you are prepared to swim.... although I know more than few so called "great grouse dogs" that have sat on the bank and watched their master wade out into a scummy pond to retrieve a bird.

MNTonester · Post by **MNTonester** » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:48 am

All the while growing up in NE MN, we never had a dog. My 4 brothers and I were our dad's eyes and eventual hunting partners. I am of the conviction that a dog will lose you as many opportunities as he finds for you considering some of the dense cover and distances, but I love the company of my dog. Good hunting and 'what Uplandish said.'

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:20 am

MNTonester wrote:All the while growing up in NE MN, we never had a dog. My 4 brothers and I were our dad's eyes and eventual hunting partners. I am of the conviction that a dog will lose you as many opportunities as he finds for you considering some of the dense cover and distances, but I love the company of my dog. Good hunting and 'what Uplandish said.'

+1

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:23 am

Personally swatting a bird off the ground doesn't sound that safe too me

Sounds safer to me than in the air. Just no challenge in it. I believe in fair chase and want to give the bird the opportunity to escape by wing so when my shot finally connects I feel proud of what was accomplished. Ground pounding a bird or shooting them off the limb doesn't seem ethical to me...

MJB64 · Post by **MJB64** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:30 am

QuillGordon wrote:
Personally swatting a bird off the ground doesn't sound that safe too me
Sounds safer to me than in the air. Just no challenge in it. I believe in fair chase and want to give the bird the opportunity to escape by wing so when my shot finally connects I feel proud of what was accomplished. Ground pounding a bird or shooting them off the limb doesn't seem ethical to me...

A clean kill with no wounded game is ethical, no matter if it is a flush or a swat. You would not flush a deer and get it running before firing a shot just to give yourself a challenge and feel proud of your shot.

Mike

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:01 am

MJB64 wrote:A clean kill with no wounded game is ethical, no matter if it is a flush or a swat. You would not flush a deer and get it running before firing a shot just to give yourself a challenge and feel proud of your shot.

A swat on a sitting game bird like a quail, a pheasant, a woodcock or a ruffed grouse just to name four, can be legal and it may be ethically done.
It is also less than where many folks find pride....dinner perhaps, but more is involved than dinner for many of us.
Taking pride in killing 'em well, appears misplaced to me.
The kill is just a small part of the process as a whole...each to their own.
I've also never felt that a flushed bird is better, in that it appears to give the bird a chance....we always have the advantage.
It is better in that it makes us...better, in ways beyond the swat.
And, I have never hunted the above-mentioned birds for the challenge, some obviously may.
Actually, any challenge would be situational, as each of the four can present flushed shots that are gimmies.
Bird hunters are very different, one to another.

Any comparison with deer is a mite silly.

Pride goeth before the fall with many deer hunters.

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:58 pm

Hey quill is that a ptarmigan??

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:01 pm

I don't really prefer to shoot a bird on the ground, but I have shot a few pheasants that way with my bow while out deer hunting. I just personally don't like it all that much.

It looks like I may have to invest in some new boots for this fall, if I intend on getting out and seeing some of the beautiful country around. My pup and I stumbled upon a woodcock honey hole, and he had a blast flushing the timber doodles up. I think he may surprise me this fall... He sure loves flushing birds. But he won't fetch a fresh killed one, as evidenced by the pigeons I shot this weekend. He is retrieving the grouse better than ever, but had no desire to even sniff the pigeon. I took him goose hunting and he even stayed still enough for me to miss a couple easy shots at some birds. Luckily I connected a wee bit later and got some goose meat to grill up.

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:04 pm

Mntonester did you ever have trouble finding a downed bird? That's one of my biggest fears of hunting without a dog. That and a bird that isn't quite dead getting up and running. Man I would hate to lose one that way

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:14 pm

You bet you can lose a bird downed bird hunting without a dog

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:23 pm

Don't worry about it. If you give a good try to find it then no one can blame you.

Uplandish · Post by **Uplandish** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:48 pm

QuillGordon wrote:
Personally swatting a bird off the ground doesn't sound that safe too me
Sounds safer to me than in the air. Just no challenge in it. I believe in fair chase and want to give the bird the opportunity to escape by wing so when my shot finally connects I feel proud of what was accomplished. Ground pounding a bird or shooting them off the limb doesn't seem ethical to me...

aside from which is safer -the ground or the air- I agree with you completely. I haven't shot a bird that wasn't properly handled by a pointer or a flusher in about 20+ years, Its what I love to do. Its why I don't put up with a dog that doesn't search and retrieve wounded birds. Im just not going to waste a minute worrying about those that don't see things my way.
That being said...
Ethics means nothing to the bird (the life you are taking) , game recovery should be the most important aspect of ethics, and what is challenging to the hunter should follow. And what is challenging and sporting is completely unique to each individual sportsman and their own abilities and personal ethics.
One could argue there is no challenge hunting a bird with marginal intelligence and little fear of man, but its the adventure of getting up there that makes blue grouse the challenge, not just in what fashion the quarry is bagged.
plenty of birds are lost to people with poorly trained dogs or people taking marginal shots or even both. I would be willing to bet some good brown liquor that amount of birds lost to guys ground swatting and tree pruning is completely insignificant when compared to the amount of birds lost by guys with poorly trained dogs only shooting at birds on the wing.
But then in the end its all argy bargy anyway.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:32 am

Hunting ethics are really not about the target.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:57 am

Ms. Cage wrote:You bet you can lose a bird downed bird hunting without a dog

I've heard multiple people say that, but I've never had a problem. I hunted ruffed grouse all through college and some years after without a dog and have never lost a grouse. Maybe I've just been lucky.

Luminary Setters · Post by **Luminary Setters** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:55 am

You can also loose one with a dog. A lot of people just won't take the time to really look.

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:44 am

Minneguy wrote:Hey quill is that a ptarmigan??

Blue or Dusky Grouse

Like this one we took on Wednesday

Their big chickens with weight up to three point five pounds

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:49 am

I would be willing to bet some good brown liquor that amount of birds lost to guys ground swatting and tree pruning is completely insignificant when compared to the amount of birds lost by guys with poorly trained dogs only shooting at birds on the wing.

Good point

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:35 am

A dog is no guarantee of a recovered bird. Anyone that thinks so is kidding themselves. How many grouse do we hit and never know it? I've had my dogs bring me crippled birds. I've had them take off after a bird I've missed and come back with it. I've also sent them for birds I've hit and never got the bird. I won't hunt birds without a dog, but a dog is no guarantee of success.

Same with pheasant. A pheasant can out sprint the fastest dog.

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:47 am

QuillGordon wrote:
Minneguy wrote:Hey quill is that a ptarmigan??

Blue or Dusky Grouse

Like this one we took on Wednesday

Their big chickens with weight up to three point five pounds

Awesome! I hear they are really fast, is that true?

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:51 am

gonehuntin' wrote:A dog is no guarantee of a recovered bird. Anyone that thinks so is kidding themselves. How many grouse do we hit and never know it? I've had my dogs bring me crippled birds. I've had them take off after a bird I've missed and come back with it. I've also sent them for birds I've hit and never got the bird. I won't hunt birds without a dog, but a dog is no guarantee of success.

Same with pheasant. A pheasant can out sprint the fastest dog.

Well, you're not wrong. This weekend was grouse opener and since I was sick I chose not to spook all the deer by coughing and hacking on the stand. I went out with a female friend of mine and we were able to get one grouse up, and I made the shot. It was moving fast and I had a limited amount of space to shoot due to the tree to my right. I barely hit the bird, and thankfully my Aussie saw it go down and chased it, pinned it to the ground barked and waited for me to come get it. He didn't retrieve it, but I'm still pretty pumped. He did the same thing on the mourning dove we flushed on the way out.
The only thing I was disappointed in was that when we bumped a doe on the trail, he didn't whoa off her like he had done in training, and chased her for almost 100 yards. I guess it's back to training, and he will wear the e collar for our next outing

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:34 am

Awesome! I hear they are really fast, is that true?

Well, when compared to Ruff's not really. Depends on which direction they are going. Blu's like steep hillsides and when they decide to flee the area downhill it is surprising how fast they can move for their size...

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:46 am

Blue grouse were my favorite addition to freeze dried meals while archery elk hunting.

MNTonester · Post by **MNTonester** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:37 pm

Mntonester did you ever have trouble finding a downed bird? That's one of my biggest fears of hunting without a dog.

I don't recall ever losing a grouse hunting without a dog. But there were always two to three sets of eyes to keep track of things back then. That being said, I've never lost a shot grouse with a dog and a few times when it's just been me and the dog, I know I'd have lost the bird without the dog. I would never hunt pheasant without a dog.

cutty72 · Post by **cutty72** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:42 pm

I've hunted without dogs, and it can be successful, just a bit more work.

Now, I'm lazy. The dog's find them and bring them back, all I have to do is hit them! (sometimes more of a challenge than I like to admit).

80% of the reason I hunt birds is for the dogs, the other 20 is for the fun and the food.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:26 am

cutty72 wrote:80% of the reason I hunt birds is for the dogs, the other 20 is for the fun and the food.

+1

aulrich · Post by **aulrich** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:27 am

I ran into this thread on another forum, some of the guys were talking about calling grouse in.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=230372

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:10 am

aulrich wrote:I ran into this thread on another forum, some of the guys were talking about calling grouse in.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=230372

Anyone know the reasoning for this coffee can call? Does it mimic social vocalizations?

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:19 am

WVU had a somewhat notable Grouse House and vocalizations were studied in the ...70s, perhaps?
Looking at this one report re drumming does not find much of a can and gravel sound but...who knows.
https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/file ... -p0135.pdf

The grouse also have a burbling sound, for want of the correct word, that I have heard as one worked around through some brush very near me....still, no can action.

That message board was...interesting, to say the least!

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:13 pm

Grouse come to chainsaws; it means food to them. I'm guessing that rattling stones sound enough like a chainsaw to interest the limb chickens.