Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

jfwhit
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:19 am
Location: Oklahoma City, OK

Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by jfwhit » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:07 am

Interesting article from The Pointing Dog Journal.

http://www.pointingdogjournal.com/onlin ... ggun_davis

User avatar
Vision
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 412
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:01 pm
Location: rocky mountains

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Vision » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:52 am

That was an interesting read. I hope they can find a solution to the problem. Evolution will find a cure but that takes more years than Mans short time frames.

User avatar
SubMariner
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 7:47 am
Location: Tampa, FL

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by SubMariner » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:19 pm

jfwhit wrote:Interesting article from The Pointing Dog Journal.

http://www.pointingdogjournal.com/onlin ... ggun_davis
I clicked on the link but just got a lot of programming jargon. :(
=SubMariner=
No matter where you go, there you are!

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:03 pm

Nope, that is not the cause, just one of the many minor contributors, I call them the five percenters; about 5% habitat, 5% rain, 5% inclement weather, 5% fire ants, 5% mamillian predators, 5% hunting, etc. And now 5% eyeworm, but it is about 60% small avian predators.

The uncontrolled avian predator populations are devastating our quail. I love birds of prey nearly as much as quail, but there is not room for both quail and hawks. Sad but true.

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:52 pm

The many reasons for a game bird's decline vary in % based upon the specific area of the country and all of the individual particulars of each bird's existence.
I see no reason why Quail would be any different....or consistent across their range as to decline factors.

Based upon studies, raptors routinely impact game birds to the tune of 30% - 40%.
That can vary with migration schedules.
A growing predator impact on remaining game birds in many areas are ground predators which are increased in numbers from the growing use of deer feeders.

Good luck to the quail.....they have benefits to recovery the likes of which other game birds can only dream.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:21 pm

Thanks to political pressures placed on the researchers, your 30 - 40% is deliberately low. Every study I have closely examined leads me to confidently state the actual avian caused mortality to Bob White quail is easily twice that.

Being an edge living bird, they are most susceptible to avian predation, more so than any other game bird.

We spend millions of dollars researching for a cause that every plantation manager in the Southeast since DDT was banned and hawks were protected.

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:04 pm

Nope
But I was speaking of game birds in general and not specifically quail.
As I implied, any noted % can vary with location, time of study and on and on...no doubt about that.

Ruffed grouse are an edge bird, imho more so than a quail, in most sections of the range.......raptor effect would never rise to 60% for them unless at some odd intersection of bad luck factors or in the mind of those who so hate raptors and government control of them that they get a bit blinded and see only what they wish to see.
Quail, if in areas with quail feeders or deer feeders or guzzlers or whatever that act to concentrate quail for the raptors to dine upon exists then any raptor effect will be increased. Same if poor habitat or human-affected habitat exists for the quail.
Simply put often it is often the other factors that drive raptor predation on game birds....rather than the raptors themselves.

I also have read many studies...quail and grouse.
While I believe that studies are interpreted waaay too widely and away from the narrowness that most university studies require....to suspect political pressure on most studies from educational institutions is silly.
It's wrong to imply that idea.
However, I don't doubt a bit that state dnr-type studies (a very small 's' for studies) may be influenced or directed toward a result....the best example of that is the interpretation of zero hunter late season additivity re ruffed grouse.....yet only one study actually had parameters directed to properly evaluate the idea....with the result correct only for one small area of the grouse range.
So, I agree that happens.

Problems can indeed be over-studied.
WE often know what is needed to help many of the game birds faced with cyclical decline or are sitting waaaay down a permanent decline curve.
Raptors are certainly a factor in bird declines, a factor that is blessed with federal protection but ......killing all raptors(or a raptor season which would make even the non-game bird killing raptors become targets) would be a short-sighted move toward truly helping in-trouble game bird popualtions.
Better to address the issues that help game birds and also help non-game species like the golden-winged warbler....that tack comes across better and less selfish to an often ignorant Public.
IMHO, of course.
But, many will disagree...the raptor card is a popular one to throw down.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:28 pm

Silly?

You obviously have not visited a university recently or are just naive, if you think the students are not inculcated with a decided leftists, tree hugger mentality. Sometimes the bias may be subconscious, but it is always there. Hidden with any QUAIL study (and the thread is about quail, not grouse), usually under unknown causes, or other, will be the rest of the avian kills. Most of the university funding comes from the Feds, who would withdraw them if research promoted raptor control of any kind.

I did not present a solution, did not suggest we return to the indiscriminate eradication of raptors, just sharing a learned observation. Since there is not an easy solution it would do little good to publish the whole truth.

Oh, about your rugged grouse, being about the same size as the Cooper's hawk, hairiers, and other small raptors, they are not as venerable as Bob Whites. The bigger hawks, that sometimes prey on grouse, are most likely a benefit to quail, as they take out many nest predators.

Actually, having attended a number of conferences on the quail decline, I rarely hear raptors even mentioned, except in hushed tones.

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:31 pm

Yes, silly...as a generalization related to university game bird studies involving Masters or Phd papers.
It appears you are one of the blind folks if the Feds may be feared to be involved...i.e., if a study does not support a personal belief then there must be some hidden agenda ongoing.....yes, that is silly.
Granted, Universities are often very liberally focused but to imply such a widespread Guvmint hand in Study parameters and outcomes is wrong....other than at the barbershop, of course.
Raptors were mentioned loudly at the ACGRP presentation(many of us attend study pesentations and conferences) before and after their migration down the spine of the Appalachians as they do reckon in that 30-40% but....then again, that was about those silly ruffed grouse so.....discount that reality. :roll:

A wise person understands that there can be connections with all game birds re decline from all factors....a wiser person never discounts a sound tie-in, from whatever source it may be as information and learning are too valuable to waste.
That you do not care for the ruffed grouse mention...too bad, the tie-in is sound regarding several factors and supported by solid studies.

Raptors that take ruffed grouse(goshawk, I reckon) take nest predators and so benefit the quail....hmm. :D
That's a new one!
I wish raptors took care of the raccoons that the deerhunters feed...but, not happening to any important extent.
Now owls will take skunks and possums and the odd raccoon...or lamb for that matter but...quail-eating hawks? wow.

I have attended several NF Revison plan public meetings.
One was in a college town where the round tables saw the typical university save-the-world type of student.
They had little in the way of practical thinking or experience re sound forest management thru age class diversity but, I personally discovered after offering a bit of logic re ES that all did not shut their ears to recognizing and understanding that little trees need love too.
I am afraid that their opposite number in many such encounters may not be so open to not finding Feds behind every problem bush....or behind some imagined raptor hushing in another setting.
Meeting those nutty college kids head-on with an attitude re their liberal mentality is guaranteed to do nothing but shut minds and ears.....all of which is one reason why we have the many large factors for game bird declines in this country....factors well seperate from the 35%-ish effect of raptors.

Perhaps, they should teach the 2 + 2 of attitudes at some of those quail conferences.
Maybe, the Quail would benefit from a view of more than talon and claw.
Actually...there is no 'maybe' involved.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:20 am

You, sir, are offensive.

When I spoke of nest predators, again quail is the topic, I meant the small mammals, chiefly the common field rat.

You are trying to debate without facts, please take your ignorance elsewhere, your personal attacks on me are not contributing to the discussion. Unlike you I have spent the last 40 years reviewing the published papers on BOB WHITE QUAIL. And it is a statement of fact that nearly all, for whatever reason, do not properly address the impact of raptors on quail decline.

Horses and camels are nearly as similar as quail and grouse, I find it helpful to study the subject, not extrapolate; particularly since there has been more attention paid to the former.

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:48 am

You Mr. , are arrogant with an imagined superiority of position.....the "Nope, that is not the cause" quote being one example.

Nest predators vary....quail or grouse....some the same, some not....some large and some of a smaller rodent level, field or woods.
The "nest" connection is the real link.
Ignoring any idea discovered thru research and studies is self-defeating of learning and so, not helpful to finding and then adddressing all the factors involved in any game bird decline.
Set limits and you reduce effectiveness toward finding resolutions or stabs at resolutions of decline problems....resolutions beyond any one single issue that you are fixed upon as...ignored or undervalued.

As to the "40 years"....good....not unusual tho and the arrogance agains rears it's head.
But since you denigrate university studies as biased or manipulated by the government in, I reckon, all too many instances and raptors are ignored out of hand then it would appear you go beyond any study to "extrapolating" data to agree with your ideas....driven by field experience as they may be.
Reading, considering and thinking about studies with a result in mind at the start is not a sound way to progress thru any issue....nor is being so arogant to assume that you are the one to have the knowledge to "properly address" a subject.
To me, your dislike of the acknowledged heavy hand and, often, ill-advised hand of the Feds enters and clouds your thinking.

Horse and camels?...perhaps some of that 40 years should have been spent with studies in hand beyond quail and so to enable you to see past your own focus and agenda and belief of what is...ignored.
Seems to me...that narrowness of thought and 2+ 2 is as bad as the Feds and their rather self-focused approach toward what all effects game bird decline.

If you actually believe that any of my earlier words involved "personal attacks" then you are a bit fragile and that attempt to distract or divert an uncomfortable to support disagreement of opinions indicates...much.
I'll leave you to your need to have a public voice of your opinion w/o the fouling of a counter or further thought by others.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:45 am

Mountaineer,

Please tell us in a few words what you have contributed to the discussion beyond a nonsensical attempt to refute my factual, supportable statement -

The smoking gun in Bob White quail decline is small avian predators.

The rest has just been posturing.

You are in bad need of a hobby.

User avatar
Tooling
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 523
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:32 am

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Tooling » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:04 am

This is not an attempt to engage in this discussion w/any facts but mere curiosity..

I am guilty of not utilizing the internet to find the answer but, when did birds of prey gain protection from the Feds?

It seems that a short open season on them every so often would help keep things in check but common sense would say that's only one element toward upland survival.

PA is teaming with Hawks..they are everywhere!

I live close to the river (Potomac) so it's to be expected..cruise any open field & the Eagles + Hawks are all over the place..+ the turkeys + the foxes + the racoons,etc...as sprawl gains ground the condensation of all these critters in such tight quarters..well..it's not good, and I'd sure hate to be a Quail.

What is also missing is agriculture on any large scale + very efficient farming on the farm lands that do exist...I am told that there were very healthy Quail populations in my area some 25/30 yrs ago :cry:

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:39 am

1972 is the short answer for hawk protection. More important to their recovery was the banning of DDT.

At no time have I advocated the killing of hawks, they are wonderful, beautiful creatures, and very important to the ecosystem.

Quail and hawks coexited for thousand of years, it is just in recent years that things have gotten out of balance. Mother Nature will correct, over time. Too late for me, but in another 75 years or so, we will have more quail and fewer small hawks. Man's intervention is almost always negative. It will work out.

And yes I have seen 12 - 15 covey days in your part of the country.

User avatar
Tooling
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 523
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:32 am

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Tooling » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:26 pm

I agree - the hawks, the owls, the eagles - all magnificent creatures but you are right - it’s out of whack and Mother Nature will correct the damage that man is doing & has done…the dinosaurs must be shaking their heads in disbelief from dinosaur heaven & I’m sure the crocs are saddened over what once was..

..just this past fall/summer

~ watched a hawk and the huge black snake that frequents my driveway every fall go at it - took a step and the hawk flew off and the snake although bloodied took cover..walked away as I don’t like to meddle w/these things..my bet is that the hawk ate well.

~ we must have a Bald Eagle nesting in our woods as I caught a glimpse of him cruising THROUGH the trees 20' off the ground (never seen that before)..neighbor saw him come out of my woods a week ago.

~ took a trip to the midwest this yr..I never would have imagined all of the Owls that live their..beautiful birds!

The 25/30 year time frame cited in my post is when I came upon bird dogs/upland hunting..we lived in WA state (Airway Heights)..fields by our place LOADED w/Quail..took a trip out there this past fall - NOTHING has changed except the fact that some of the roads through the area are now paved and sprawl is creeping toward..wife & I kicked a lot of grass throughout the hundreds of acres - plenty of cover + lots of natural food for them - not a single bird to be found..it’s heartbreaking & disheartening to say the least.

Anybody that still has it - PROTECT IT!!!

User avatar
AZ Brittany Guy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1412
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:00 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:56 pm

I guess what I don't understand about the raptor discussion is; how can raptors be the main problem? Raptors and quail have been around with out human control for many years and the raptors have not wiped them out. Mother Nature goes through the ebbs and flows over time and that is part of the cycle of life. Disease occurs due to many factors and if mankind help the situation through science, all the better.

Quail and Raptors were in Texas long before mankind set foot in many areas and I would bet both species were plentiful........just sayan.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:31 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:I guess what I don't understand about the raptor discussion is; how can raptors be the main problem? Raptors and quail have been around with out human control for many years and the raptors have not wiped them out. Mother Nature goes through the ebbs and flows over time and that is part of the cycle of life. Disease occurs due to many factors and if mankind help the situation through science, all the better.

Quail and Raptors were in Texas long before mankind set foot in many areas and I would bet both species were plentiful........just sayan.
Historically, early Bob White quail populations in North America were relatively low as compared with the highs of the early to mid-1900's before we cleared and developed the land. As we developed the land we killed the small hawks; with pesticide, trapping and GrandMa's shotgun. Quail flourished as hawk populations plummeted.

Then we rightly protected the raptors by banning DDT and other pesticide and herbicides (Tremic) and fined GrandMa, the hawks came back in numbers exceeding expectations, getting it all out of whack.

If man stops interfering it will get back in balance, not the artificial highs we experienced in the heyday nor the extraordinary lows of today.

My point is we all know what is causing the quail decline - hawks -, there is just nothing significant we can or should do.

But studying it does employ a lot of people.

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by birddogger » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:16 pm

I believe there are several factors contributing to the decline of the Bob White. However, when I was young and the Bob was king ( they were plentiful everywhere), the skies were full of hawks. In my area, the farming practices has as much to do with it as anything along with preditation. To be clear, I am not critisizing the farmer, just my observations and JMO.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:24 pm

birddogger wrote:I believe there are several factors contributing to the decline of the Bob White. However, when I was young and the Bob was king ( they were plentiful everywhere), the skies were full of hawks. In my area, the farming practices has as much to do with it as anything along with preditation. To be clear, I am not critisizing the farmer, just my observations and JMO.

Charlie
Were those hawks Cooper' s and hairiers? If so it defies the scientific literature. Hawk populations are up over 750% from when quail were at a high.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16646
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:37 pm

The biggest factor in hawk predication is lack of good cover. There are many secondary causes but it still gets back to food and habitat. We can argue about who kills what and the truth is there are no accurate counts. But it seems to be a good subject to argue since no one can prove or disprove their opinions.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:17 pm

ezzy333 wrote:The biggest factor in hawk predication is lack of good cover. There are many secondary causes but it still gets back to food and habitat. We can argue about who kills what and the truth is there are no accurate counts. But it seems to be a good subject to argue since no one can prove or disprove their opinions.

Ezzy
But it has been proven, the lowest mortality rate in a study I have seen from avian predation was 34%, with 36% in the unknown and other causes, with 30% mammalian. This is not guess work.

User avatar
SCT
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 859
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:43 pm
Location: Utah

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by SCT » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:52 pm

Is there many ravens in bobwhite country?? Researchers have determined they play a part in sage grouse populations being down.

User avatar
Tooling
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 523
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:32 am

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Tooling » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:14 pm

SCT wrote:Is there many ravens in bobwhite country?? Researchers have determined they play a part in sage grouse populations being down.
Can't comment on the effect on Quail directly (or Grouse) but I have been told that the crows hate the hawks and the hawks hate the crows...crows seem to travel in numbers which I would guess is their advantage...don't seem to see the both of them at the same time..?

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:15 pm

SCT wrote:Is there many ravens in bobwhite country?? Researchers have determined they play a part in sage grouse populations being down.
Only in the extreme northern Bob White range do they coexist with raven, and then they are both in small numbers.

jkb72
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:15 pm

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by jkb72 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:56 pm

Neil wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:I guess what I don't understand about the raptor discussion is; how can raptors be the main problem? Raptors and quail have been around with out human control for many years and the raptors have not wiped them out. Mother Nature goes through the ebbs and flows over time and that is part of the cycle of life. Disease occurs due to many factors and if mankind help the situation through science, all the better.

Quail and Raptors were in Texas long before mankind set foot in many areas and I would bet both species were plentiful........just sayan.
Historically, early Bob White quail populations in North America were relatively low as compared with the highs of the early to mid-1900's before we cleared and developed the land. As we developed the land we killed the small hawks; with pesticide, trapping and GrandMa's shotgun. Quail flourished as hawk populations plummeted.

Then we rightly protected the raptors by banning DDT and other pesticide and herbicides (Tremic) and fined GrandMa, the hawks came back in numbers exceeding expectations, getting it all out of whack.

If man stops interfering it will get back in balance, not the artificial highs we experienced in the heyday nor the extraordinary lows of today.

My point is we all know what is causing the quail decline - hawks -, there is just nothing significant we can or should do.

But studying it does employ a lot of people.

I think your point of predation from hawks & the so called "smoking gun" go hand in hand.
From what I understand, is that when the quail population becomes infested with eye worms, they become more
vulnerable to predation whether that be hawks or any predator in general.
It's not so much that the eye worm infestation kills them itself, it hinders their natural ability to survive against predator's.
Add to that a larger than normal predator/hawk population & you have a recipe for a major decline.
If a bird cannot see well & is not at its best of health..... it can become a meal pretty easily.

User avatar
AZ Brittany Guy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1412
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:00 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:45 am

Makes sense. Lets hope a solution to the eye worms can help.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2085
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by cjhills » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:10 am

Neil wrote:
birddogger wrote:I believe there are several factors contributing to the decline of the Bob White. However, when I was young and the Bob was king ( they were plentiful everywhere), the skies were full of hawks. In my area, the farming practices has as much to do with it as anything along with preditation. To be clear, I am not critisizing the farmer, just my observations and JMO.

Charlie
Were those hawks Cooper' s and hairiers? If so it defies the scientific literature. Hawk populations are up over 750% from when quail were at a high.
Where is your research for this comment.....................Cj

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:15 am

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&s ... B704%3B760

And there a couple hundred other studies showing the welcomed comeback of the hawks.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2085
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by cjhills » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:33 pm

Neil wrote:http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&s ... B704%3B760

And there a couple hundred other studies showing the welcomed comeback of the hawks.
I did not have time to read them all but most I did read showed stable or decreasing Raptor populations in the last 20 years. A few showed increase in some areas. I did not find any which showed 750% increase. Northern Harriers are on the endangered species list many areas.
It is mostly about habitat except for a few local populations. This also effecting Raptor numbers. Quail and predators have co-existed forever without significant increases or decreases in quail populations because of predators. Other factors such as weather, habitat and disease are much more important in rapid population deceases ...................Cj

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:51 pm

CJ,

Nearly everything you have written, other than not taking the time to read, is incorrect.

User avatar
coff20
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:32 pm
Location: Eastern Oregon

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by coff20 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:43 pm

Wow Neil, you seem to be quite the biologist. I'd love to read your published and scholarly reviewed journal article that explains the decline in quail populations. Clearly, given the 40 years of research you have done and the utmost confidence you have in your scientific conclusion, you must have written something. If not then your expertise is truly going to waste, as it seems you're the only person in the entire U.S. who knows for sure the definitive reason for bobwhite population decline is due to avian predators...
"Let no man be ashamed to kneel here in the great out-of-doors. Remember the woods were God's first temples." Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises

"There's nothin' better than a boy and his dog just out travelin' 'round the backcountry" -Some Old Hippie

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:25 pm

coff20 wrote:Wow Neil, you seem to be quite the biologist. I'd love to read your published and scholarly reviewed journal article that explains the decline in quail populations. Clearly, given the 40 years of research you have done and the utmost confidence you have in your scientific conclusion, you must have written something. If not then your expertise is truly going to waste, as it seems you're the only person in the entire U.S. who knows for sure the definitive reason for bobwhite population decline is due to avian predators...
Whoever led you to believe your sarcasm is an effective way to communicate, lied. You do not have sufficient wit to pull it off.

I have never claimed original research. And my opinions are shared by many more educated than myself.

Try to find a major study on Bob White mortality that does not list avian predation as a major factor, almost always with a matching or greater percentage in an indeterminate category.

mnaj_springer
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1247
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm
Location: Northern Minnesota

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:38 pm

Neil wrote:
coff20 wrote:Wow Neil, you seem to be quite the biologist. I'd love to read your published and scholarly reviewed journal article that explains the decline in quail populations. Clearly, given the 40 years of research you have done and the utmost confidence you have in your scientific conclusion, you must have written something. If not then your expertise is truly going to waste, as it seems you're the only person in the entire U.S. who knows for sure the definitive reason for bobwhite population decline is due to avian predators...
Whoever led you to believe your sarcasm is an effective way to communicate, lied. You do not have sufficient wit to pull it off.
I laughed. Maybe it's because I'm too stupid to understand?
“Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions.”
― Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:28 pm

I truly enjoy the attention, but it would be more constructive to address the issues, not the personality flaws of the messenger.

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by birddogger » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:26 pm

Neil wrote:
birddogger wrote:I believe there are several factors contributing to the decline of the Bob White. However, when I was young and the Bob was king ( they were plentiful everywhere), the skies were full of hawks. In my area, the farming practices has as much to do with it as anything along with preditation. To be clear, I am not critisizing the farmer, just my observations and JMO.

Charlie
Were those hawks Cooper' s and hairiers? If so it defies the scientific literature. Hawk populations are up over 750% from when quail were at a high.
I admit they were mostly red tail hawks.
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by birddogger » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:31 pm

cjhills wrote:
Neil wrote:
birddogger wrote:I believe there are several factors contributing to the decline of the Bob White. However, when I was young and the Bob was king ( they were plentiful everywhere), the skies were full of hawks. In my area, the farming practices has as much to do with it as anything along with preditation. To be clear, I am not critisizing the farmer, just my observations and JMO.

Charlie
Were those hawks Cooper' s and hairiers? If so it defies the scientific literature. Hawk populations are up over 750% from when quail were at a high.
Where is your research for this comment.....................Cj
If you would read my post for what it is, you would see that it was just my observation and just my opinion. Of course I did no research and never indicated that it involved any kind of research.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:44 pm

Charlie,

Your observations are valuable.

It is just the big hawks are not a threat to quail.

User avatar
coff20
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:32 pm
Location: Eastern Oregon

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by coff20 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:06 pm

I'm sorry you did not appreciate my humor and I'm not contending that hawks don't account for a large percentage bobwhite deaths annually. However, there is a difference between annual mortality rate and long term population decline.

The vast majority of the studies I have read have stated that the decline is due to a complex of issues (avian predation is frequently included here, though not highlighted), generally centered around loss of habitat (no, they aren't saying this because they are radical, leftist environmentalists with a political agenda). The studies are presented this way because even if they account for a large percentage of deaths, they are still considered a proximate cause. Unfortunately for you, scientists enjoy asking long series of questions, so while they could easily have looked at the number of deaths caused by hawks and concluded they had their reason for the decline in population (much like it seems you did) they instead proceeded to ask another question. They asked why hawks seem to account for so many deaths and the answer is not because hawk populations are much to high, the answer is often due to the change in farming practices and the decline in good cover. Well what about on properties maintained specifically for birds, you ask? The variety of complex issues still plays a part here and hawks are still considered a proximate cause. There may be something to do with the weather, there may be something to do with where the birds are getting their food and water, there may be a parasitic eye worm putting the bobwhite at a disadvantage. Given a fair playing field, the odds will even out and hawks will not be the major cause to a long term population decline. In the event of the playing field not being fair and the amount of kills by hawks increases, they are still not the ultimate cause for decline. The ultimate cause would be whatever is causing the field to be unfair and that would be what needs to be addressed.

Of course that's just my opinion based on all that I've read, so take it with a grain of salt if you must. I'm not saying it's absolutely the answer to why they are declining and I realize I don't give any kind of solution, but I think throwing all the blame on one thing in this case is just a little too narrow minded for the scope of the issue.
"Let no man be ashamed to kneel here in the great out-of-doors. Remember the woods were God's first temples." Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises

"There's nothin' better than a boy and his dog just out travelin' 'round the backcountry" -Some Old Hippie

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:32 pm

Neil wrote:Nope, that is not the cause, just one of the many minor contributors, I call them the five percenters; about 5% habitat, 5% rain, 5% inclement weather, 5% fire ants, 5% mamillian predators, 5% hunting, etc. And now 5% eyeworm, but it is about 60% small avian predators.

The uncontrolled avian predator populations are devastating our quail. I love birds of prey nearly as much as quail, but there is not room for both quail and hawks. Sad but true.

mnaj_springer
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1247
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm
Location: Northern Minnesota

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:36 pm

ok.
Last edited by mnaj_springer on Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions.”
― Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:04 pm

Yep, I am that arrogant.

It was a shortcut to agree with Coff and show it is what I said in the first place. When you all skim my posts, playing gotcha, you miss stuff.

User avatar
Tejas
Rank: Champion
Posts: 390
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:58 pm
Location: Trophy Club, Tx

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Tejas » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:43 pm

I can't speak for the rest of the country, but from my observation the decline of bobwhite quail in Texas has been increasingly impacted by the proliferation of deer hunters and deer feeders and also to an extent by the proliferation of feral hogs in much of the traditional quail habitat.

User avatar
coff20
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:32 pm
Location: Eastern Oregon

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by coff20 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:52 pm

No, I read that. I don't think you understood what I was trying to say. You're saying "uncontrolled avian predator populations are devastating our quail" and that they are 60% to blame for overall population decline. I'm saying hawks are a minority reason for decline. It is true that annually 40-60% of bobwhite deaths are due to hawks in many areas. However, it is not uncommon for there to be an 80% turnover of birds each year, so in the scope of what's happening that really isn't a big deal. What a big deal in relation to long term population decline is when birds have trouble finding suitable nesting habitat or when the chicks have exceptionally high mortality rates, among other things. Can the birds of prey play a role in high mortality rates for the young? Yes, but they will still only be a proximate cause. There will be an ultimate cause leading to the bobwhite being more vulnerable to predation and leading to a variety of other hardships that the bobwhite will have to face. Consider a severe drought. This will cause the birds to have to travel more and potentially have to water in more dangerous areas. This will lead to higher predation rates both from mammals and hawks. Drought could also lead to birds dying of thirst. It could lead to birds dying of hunger as forage will be harder to find. Let's say during this drought 85% of the birds do not survive, 60% of which were eaten by hawks. The remaining 15% of the birds have a tough breeding year and can only bring the population up to 80% of what it was the year before. Do you place 60% of the blame for population decline on "uncontrolled avian predator populations" or do you put 80% of the blame on the drought creating adverse conditions for the birds to survive and reproduce. I would say the drought should shoulder the largest amount of blame. Likewise, the majority of the studies I have read have said that the overall reason for population decline is due to a variety of complex factors centered around changes in farming practices and diminishing suitable habitat, not due to a rise in hawk numbers.
"Let no man be ashamed to kneel here in the great out-of-doors. Remember the woods were God's first temples." Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises

"There's nothin' better than a boy and his dog just out travelin' 'round the backcountry" -Some Old Hippie

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by birddogger » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:06 pm

Neil wrote:Charlie,

Your observations are valuable.

It is just the big hawks are not a threat to quail.
Understood, I would have not thought that.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

mnaj_springer
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1247
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm
Location: Northern Minnesota

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:09 pm

birddogger wrote:
Neil wrote:Charlie,

Your observations are valuable.

It is just the big hawks are not a threat to quail.
Understood, I would have not thought that.

Charlie
Neither would I, having witnessed red-tailed Hawks take mice and rats.
“Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions.”
― Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2085
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by cjhills » Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:09 am

Neil wrote:CJ,

Nearly everything you have written, other than not taking the time to read, is incorrect.
Ok. If we agree that you are right, which surely you must be. Tell be why Raptors and Quail and other small birds coexisted for eons, and explain to me why Raptors suddenly increased in such numbers (750% in one of your posts)that they ate all the Quail. Why is there suddenly not room for both? Show me the research that says Raptors have increased 750%. It simply defies logic.
Also since you are saying everything I wrote is incorrect perhaps you should peruse some of the research you listed, because that is where most of what I wrote comes from. Are you saying Northern Harriers are not on the endangered species list in Illinois?
If you read enough you can find research to support almost any point of view.............................Cj

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:10 am

coff20 wrote:No, I read that. I don't think you understood what I was trying to say. You're saying "uncontrolled avian predator populations are devastating our quail" and that they are 60% to blame for overall population decline. I'm saying hawks are a minority reason for decline. It is true that annually 40-60% of bobwhite deaths are due to hawks in many areas. However, it is not uncommon for there to be an 80% turnover of birds each year, so in the scope of what's happening that really isn't a big deal. What a big deal in relation to long term population decline is when birds have trouble finding suitable nesting habitat or when the chicks have exceptionally high mortality rates, among other things. Can the birds of prey play a role in high mortality rates for the young? Yes, but they will still only be a proximate cause. There will be an ultimate cause leading to the bobwhite being more vulnerable to predation and leading to a variety of other hardships that the bobwhite will have to face. Consider a severe drought. This will cause the birds to have to travel more and potentially have to water in more dangerous areas. This will lead to higher predation rates both from mammals and hawks. Drought could also lead to birds dying of thirst. It could lead to birds dying of hunger as forage will be harder to find. Let's say during this drought 85% of the birds do not survive, 60% of which were eaten by hawks. The remaining 15% of the birds have a tough breeding year and can only bring the population up to 80% of what it was the year before. Do you place 60% of the blame for population decline on "uncontrolled avian predator populations" or do you put 80% of the blame on the drought creating adverse conditions for the birds to survive and reproduce. I would say the drought should shoulder the largest amount of blame. Likewise, the majority of the studies I have read have said that the overall reason for population decline is due to a variety of complex factors centered around changes in farming practices and diminishing suitable habitat, not due to a rise in hawk numbers.
The above is well thought out and very well written, in fact it could be the executive summary for most of the multiple million dollar quail studies. It is the party line,, it is what has Been taught since Stottord, very logical and can be forced to apply to most of the Northern Bob White range.

EXCEPTfor the once quail rich areas of Texas and Oklahoma, which is mostly void of farming. And the 20,000 acre Ames Plantation, Cross Timbers, and the hundreds of often contiguous quail plantations of the Southeast; which all place developing and maintaining quail habitat ahead of commercial farming. Where very intelligent, hardworking, dedicated people do nearly everything legally possible to propagate wild quail, WITHOUT SUCCESS!

Before they gave up on wild quail and started releasing birds for the National Championship, the Ames Plantation got a rare trapping permit for hawks; but it proved as futile as trying to drain an Olympic sized swimming pool with a teaspoon. If hawks were not a factor why would they bother?

What many of you think is my radical thinking is accepted by nearly all quail plantation managers, it is from them I first heard the notion. Then I started studying the papers and attending seminars on quail decline. Why do you suppose there is always such a large number of indeterminate causes in those studies? These are smart people with vast resource.

Small raptors are not the only cause, but a major one.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:40 am

CJ,

Please do a Google, the 750% increase small of hawks is accepted, if not widely disseminated.

I did find this of interest, even though quail are not mentioned specifically.
Cooper's hawks' breeding success was also reduced by the use of the pesticide DDT, but the ban of DDT ended that threat.[13] Since then, the adaptable Cooper's hawk has thrived. The Cooper's hawk, as a natural predator of almost any North American bird smaller than itself, can inadvertently deplete populations of rarer, conservation-dependent species. The American kestrel, whose populations have experienced considerable decrease, is one species in which the extensive predation by the recovered Cooper's hawk population is a major concern.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Neil » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:49 am

I have wasted enough time on this, believe what you will. Short of more personal attacks, I am done. I am now willing to accept it is the eye worm causing the decline, or whatever theory the researchers can dream up to waste more money on.

I am not suggesting a vast conspiracy by the well meaning researchers, it is just if they can't address the major cause, they have to look for all the minor ones they can modify.

User avatar
Brazosvalleyvizslas
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1340
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:20 am
Location: Soon2be, Texas

Re: Quail Population 'The Smoking Gun"

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:47 am

These tests were done on areas that have been the hardest hit areas by drought. Coincidence? I think not. Ranches that I hunted 20yrs ago produced limits and I didn't even have dogs then. Now Ive been training year round for the past 2yrs and haven't run into a single wild Quail.

I actually see less Hawks here now and I hunt and trap other predators on that land.

Post Reply