Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

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JonBailey
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Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by JonBailey » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:32 pm

material?

Steel?
Bismuth?
e-Shot?
Tungsten-iron?
Hevi-shot?
Tungsten-matrix?
Other?

I want as little recoil as possible. I don't want the non-tox shot material to add to recoil over lead which steel shot has been purported to do because of the much higher velocities needed for adequate penetration of this light (low density) material.

I want no crippled birds. Unless steel shells are at shoulder-bruising velocity, they've been purported to be notorious cripplers.
I don't want damaged barrels or chokes.
Excellent patterns with little or no pellet deformation.
Hard, smooth shot that cuts through the bird's skin clean without pulling feathers into the body.
Shotgun shells can't be prohibitively expensive: $2 or more for one single shell is probably not acceptable to most shotgunners

Ideally, thoughtful hunters want no-tox shot that ballistically rivals the performance of premium lead loads as closely as possible
without lead poisoning, chunks of feather inside the breast meat, bruised shoulders or gun damage.

The goal is dense, hard, round and smooth shot inside non-toxic shotgun shells that won't cost a king's ransom to buy or bruise shoudlers any worse than ballistically-comparable lead shells would.

Shotgun ballistics are complex: which no-tox shot is as close to perfect as possible?
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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:42 pm

JonBailey wrote:material?

Steel?
Bismuth?
e-Shot?
Tungsten-iron?
Hevi-shot?
Tungsten-matrix?
Other?

I want as little recoil as possible. I don't want the non-tox shot material to add to recoil over lead which steel shot has been purported to do because of the much higher velocities needed for adequate penetration of this light (low density) material.

I want no crippled birds. Unless steel shells are at shoulder-bruising velocity, they've been purported to be notorious cripplers.
I don't want damaged barrels or chokes.
Excellent patterns with little or no pellet deformation.
Hard, smooth shot that cuts through the bird's skin clean without pulling feathers into the body.
Shotgun shells can't be prohibitively expensive: $2 or more for one single shell is probably not acceptable to most shotgunners

Ideally, thoughtful hunters want no-tox shot that ballistically rivals the performance of premium lead loads as closely as possible
without lead poisoning, chunks of feather inside the breast meat, bruised shoulders or gun damage.

The goal is dense, hard, round and smooth shot inside non-toxic shotgun shells that won't cost a king's ransom to buy or bruise shoudlers any worse than ballistically-comparable lead shells would.

Shotgun ballistics are complex: which no-tox shot is as close to perfect as possible?
Jon, how would we know? Do you suppose there might not be a best one for all occasions? And how do we measure which one cuts through the skin cleanly with no pulled feathers on every specie of bird we hunt? I am going to suggest something that might keep you entertained and that is start doing your own research instead of asking everyone to do it for you. I will look forward to what you discover in each of those areas you just described and I will bet you will have a rather large following to see what you come up with.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by JonBailey » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:53 am

I figure people here might know the answers by firsthand experience in the field but if anybody thinks I am going to pay more than $2.00 for one shell he's crazy. I'm reluctant myself to pay more than $1.00 for a shell to be fired upon any critter with feathers. A box of 25 premium lead shells for no more than $15 is about tops for me.

https://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product ... prd2482977

= .26 cents per 20 ga. dove/quail shell by Herter's Field

https://www.cabelas.com/product/shootin ... s?slotId=1

= .52 cents per 20 ga. 3" No. 5 heavy-hunting pheasant load by Herter's Field

The prices above are much more up my alley.

For getting target loads for pre-season practice I would probably get my best deal at Wally-World in bulk since I have no hankering to take up reloading.
I'm certainly not going use pheasant loads at any skeet range but probably promotionals only. A hunter might practice four rounds of skeet per session for four Saturdays before dove opener which adds up to 400 shells fired to get tuned up. If one buys a 4-pack of promo target shells at Wal-Mart for $20.00 a pack, that's $80.00 burned up in ammunition already for pre-season practice. That's 16 rounds of skeet not including range fees.

I have already asked these some questions on a couple other hunting forums and the reply was basically the same: "'there is no such animal" and my reply to them was as follows:

This revelation pretty much then rules out any notions of my taking up duck hunting or upland hunting in areas where non-toxic shot is forced upon hunters by bureaucrats. I would only hunt in situations where I could still toss lead at critters and not get into trouble. Lead is relatively cheap and can still kill quite effectively while being gentle on shoulders and allow breast meat to be presentable on the dinner plate depending upon loading specs, pellet construction, gun, gauge and choke. Lead (chemical symbol Pb) is old-fashioned, time-honored and has been proven for centuries. Going from lead to something else is much like asking American motorists to go from gasoline cars to electric vehicles. There was a even a stink among some people in the 1970's when they took lead out of gasoline.

For duck hunters, the affordable non-toxic "magic BB" has yet to be discovered and marketed it seems.
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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by polmaise » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:53 am

JonBailey wrote: pretty much then rules out any notions of my taking up duck hunting or upland hunting
I'm sure many folk are pleased to hear this :lol:

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by Meller » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:17 am

Jon, hunting is a recreational activity, that brings enjoyment to the one participating, and there are expenses in every recreational activity, such as in fishing there is buying a boat, fishing pole, rigging a car or truck to pull the boat, some fee's for launching the boat, gas for these vehicles lures and so on; these expenditures are what you make of them, they can be done on the cheap or very expensive, none that I have found are totally free, how it is done is up to you. My advice to you is find a friend to go hunting with, maybe he will lone you a gun? and see if this is something you really want do. Or buy a cheap gun, (single shot, auto whatever) go to a preserve, use their dogs, to me bird hunting is a commitment you have to be willing to take on; but it is what I enjoy doing for my recreational activity, and I get to enjoy it with mans best friend; As you grow older you will find that you will want your tools to fit you (gun's, boots, vest's ) and less shells will be shot, but the enjoyment factor will be higher and you will have enjoyed several of mans best friends and each will hold a special place in your heart; and not to even mention the friendship's developed! I guess this is how I justify the expense. Try it on and see if it fits! :D

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by JonBailey » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:55 am

Meller wrote:Jon, hunting is a recreational activity, that brings enjoyment to the one participating, and there are expenses in every recreational activity, such as in fishing there is buying a boat, fishing pole, rigging a car or truck to pull the boat, some fee's for launching the boat, gas for these vehicles lures and so on; these expenditures are what you make of them, they can be done on the cheap or very expensive, none that I have found are totally free, how it is done is up to you. My advice to you is find a friend to go hunting with, maybe he will lone you a gun? and see if this is something you really want do. Or buy a cheap gun, (single shot, auto whatever) go to a preserve, use their dogs, to me bird hunting is a commitment you have to be willing to take on; but it is what I enjoy doing for my recreational activity, and I get to enjoy it with mans best friend; As you grow older you will find that you will want your tools to fit you (gun's, boots, vest's ) and less shells will be shot, but the enjoyment factor will be higher and you will have enjoyed several of mans best friends and each will hold a special place in your heart; and not to even mention the friendship's developed! I guess this is how I justify the expense. Try it on and see if it fits! :D
Meller, still one's hobby shouldn't deplete his old-age savings. If non-toxic shot is ruled out altogether, I'm still convinced dove, quail, wild pheasant and grouse hunting can be done on a blue-collar man's budget. For one thing, a person doesn't have to start with a "champagne tastes" Beretta over/under but perhaps a "beer-budget" (I mean Colt 45 malt liquor budget) Benelli Nova pump 20 and in most areas in America lead shot can still be tossed at doves and other non-webbed-footed feathered critters. Promo loads will work in most instances. Most people in my state of Idaho are not rich anyway. This is a blue-collar state. I don't feel hunting has to be a snooty sport as it is in England. I don't think upland birding will be anywhere as near as opulent as boating. A Crestliner 16.5' Discovery starts out at about $13,000 new w/ 50 HP Merc outboard, side console and trailer.This is basically a glorified aluminum rowboat!

For duck hunting, one is going to throw a lot of money into specialized equipment if good-quality non-toxic shells is not bad enough in price already. Decoys, waders, calls, possibly a jon boat, you name it. Upland hunting, on the other hand, is light travel; not much excess baggage in terms of equipment. Maybe a folding stool, camo clothes, a shooting vest, a few MOJO decoys, a hat, a bucket, and some blind material for a dove stand. A couple Coleman coolers I already have anyway. Pheasant hunting while walking should be even less equipment intensive.

As for people who own dogs for companions anyway, they are going to have upkeep costs whether they are used with a gun barrel (or two in the case of double guns) over them or not.
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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:41 am

“Non-tox” shot can be a deal-ender for some re counter cost or barrel issues.
If, they parse out expenses and look at the hunting activity in terms of dollars and a ROI alone or shoot an older shotgun with barrels less welcoming to steel, that is.

Steel tho, is not quite what it was and can work...ok. I shot a bit of steel out of a 20 gauge for grouse and woodcock and, while not my choice.....it worked quite well. A pheasant-level bird would die as well if the shot is pointed and triggered correctly.
Those looking for any end of the deal will often miss the draws that are reasons enough for many of us.

The remainder can be troubling.
“Crippled” birds happen...always have and always will. We all strive thru shooting prctice, decisions and dogs to limit that number every time we set foot afield.

I supect you have never patterned much.....as one who bought 8” diameter rolls of paper for the purpose...enjoy and learn and, accept.

Feathers and lead pellets( :roll: ) will not kill you in the real world in which many of us have encountered them over multiple decades.

Felt recoil is situational and can be mitigated by various means.
Actual recoil is a from combination of factors and can easily be judged acceptable or required and then, decisions made.

Perfect...is often over-rated and ill-advised outside of theory.

Why we go may be a question to research.
The answer, to a degree, is available tho not as simple as weights and measures.....it is available especially in the rich literary history of some upland bird hunting.....or whatever hunting.
The answer, without a doubt, is not always based upon perfect or the ever-popular how-to...the answer best develops, to me, within and with an understanding and an appreciation for .....being there.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by averageguy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:44 am

The cost of shells is the least expensive segment of my hunting passions and I shoot the best ammo and arrows always.
The difference in performance is worth the cost for me.

A decent shot will not shoot that many shells while hunting upland birds.

If the cost of owning a dog and hunting upland birds in your home state of ID scares you, do not go anywhere near Waterfowl Hunting or traveling all around NA to hunt elsewhere is my advice ...

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by JonBailey » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:45 am

averageguy wrote:The cost of shells is the least expensive segment of my hunting passions and I shoot the best ammo and arrows always.
The difference in performance is worth the cost for me.

A decent shot will not shoot that many shells while hunting upland birds.

If the cost of owning a dog and hunting upland birds in your home state of ID scares you, do not go anywhere near Waterfowl Hunting or traveling all around NA to hunt elsewhere is my advice ...
Recoil scares me the most but the cost of bismuth and tungsten gives me the blues.

With lead shot, however, and a conservatively-priced 20-ga. all-weather pump gun, the prospect of the uplands or the dove stand seems rather modest in cost still.

Actually, dog owning and shooting upland fowl in blue-collar Spud State doesn't seem scary to me at all. This isn't California, you know.

I can mitigate much of the dog investment thru self-training.

I've never patterned a shotgun in my life. I'ved own tactical pump shotguns all along which nobody ever patterns. They take them to test-fire at a silhouette target on a shooting range or a water jug to see if it even shoots.

I can blow baseball size holes in a paper target at ten feet with my Remington 870 Express tactical 12 ga. home defender right on the money with the front bead. The gun kicks rudely but not painfully.

I've owned a Mossberg 500 police pump 12 ga. in the past which was remarkably softer in recoil and I liked the design much better than my current Remmy. Never got into the sporting aspect of scatterguns. I've now got my mind set on a Benelli Nova 20 for sporting use.
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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by fishvik » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:06 am

I think you are over emphasizing recoil. Unlike rifle shooting your firearm is in motion, and you are instinctually pointing not aiming. These lead to less perception of recoil. I have not noticed much difference in recoil between lead loads and steel loads.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by KCKLH » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:57 am

You need to learn to adapt and overcome while being smart with your budget. When you duck hunt you arent just hunting animals youre hunting for the offseason bargains on unsold steel shot and hunting for leftover supplies in the workshop for home built blinds. You gotta learn to load your own hulls and make your own duck calls. Then you gotta sort relentlessly through every clue and tip you can get from your fellow hunters to find The X. You have to learn the actual lore of the hunt if you want to make it out on public lands. Plenty of rich folks spend plenty of money for guarantees but never even learn to shoot or set up decoys or call and never make even decent hunters because of it. Heck a lot of them cant even undo the straps holding their canoe to their roof. For poor folks gaining access to game and supplying the hunt itself is simply the other side of the coin. The best ones will give themselves the most opportunities. Im a full time college student that occasionally flips a car or motorcycle for income and made it out every weekend last season. Add in the odd box of steel or decoys for christmas and I make it happen. There are literally endless hours of cheap and easy do it yourself videos on youtube to overcome just about any obstacle you might encounter.

If you want equipment that fits your needs just make it yourself.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by averageguy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:05 pm

Jon, you post your concern about the cost of ammo and then you argue and say you are not worried about it when I respond. Ok.

I think I will bow out of responding to your posts in the future, but a couple of thoughts are:

I have owned and trained my own hunting dogs for 50 years. There are alot of costs of doing so. I would list them but your behavior thus far is rather than acknowledging it as helpful you will just argue with it so I won't bother.

Make sure you are ready and willing to step to the ownership costs of raising, training and owning a hunting dog completely or do not go down that road for the sake of the dog. Get a mutt at the pound in the alternative.

Recoil - the worse recoiling gun I have ever shot is an 870 pump 12 gauge I own. I quickly relegated it to home protection which it is well suited for. Pump shotguns send all their recoil to the shooter is my experience and never come with a true functioning recoil pad vs some cosmetic solid rubber do nothing at the end of the stock. If you get a pump spend another $25 and buy a LimbSaver recoil pad for it. You will probably argue about that now too, but will thank me later if you follow the advice. :D

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by JonBailey » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:43 pm

averageguy wrote:Jon, you post your concern about the cost of ammo and then you argue and say you are not worried about it when I respond. Ok.

I think I will bow out of responding to your posts in the future, but a couple of thoughts are:

I have owned and trained my own hunting dogs for 50 years. There are alot of costs of doing so. I would list them but your behavior thus far is rather than acknowledging it as helpful you will just argue with it so I won't bother.

Make sure you are ready and willing to step to the ownership costs of raising, training and owning a hunting dog completely or do not go down that road for the sake of the dog. Get a mutt at the pound in the alternative.

Recoil - the worse recoiling gun I have ever shot is an 870 pump 12 gauge I own. I quickly relegated it to home protection which it is well suited for. Pump shotguns send all their recoil to the shooter is my experience and never come with a true functioning recoil pad vs some cosmetic solid rubber do nothing at the end of the stock. If you get a pump spend another $25 and buy a LimbSaver recoil pad for it. You will probably argue about that now too, but will thank me later if you follow the advice. :D
Sir, my mind was pretty well made up about non-toxic shot when I was in effect told from the get-go to forget the idea that I would never find shells that would deliver all my wishes for under two bucks a pop.

I have no more to say about non-toxic shot from here on but I thank all you good people for advice. I hope I am not thought ungrateful.

As far as cost analysis with a calculator in hand for a hunting dog I really wouldn't know where to start. I do know that my aunt had a German shepherd that cost $2,000
in fees from a professional trainer to make this animal a security dog for home protection. What does a professional trainer normally charge to make a retriever a
hunting dog from puppyhood to finish? $2,000? How much money might I save in the long run if I were to get books and videos to do it myself? I might attend obedience classes with my
dog at my local ASPCA for starters.

I am planning to sell my Remington 870 police pump and get a handgun for home security. A Colt Cobra .38 Special + P. A new model. My police pump I fire at the range once a year to see if it still shoots otherwise it's hanging on my bedroom wall on guard and unfired. It kicks annoyingly during test fire at the range on a still target but does not actually hurt my shoulder to shoot. I could live with this annoying kick should I have to defend myself from a bad guy. However, the annoying kick for hunting or clay target practice would ruin the pleasure of the sport for me given the sheer 100's of fired rounds that are often involved. A novice will burn more ammo than a veteran in the field, I agree. Certainly so at a dove stand! Might as well be sure the sporting gun shoots soft but effectively.
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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by averageguy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:28 pm

I had $1400 in my current dog before I even saw him.

He injured his eye and we spent yesterday morning driving 3 hours round trip to Blue Pearl ER to the tune of $300 plus $55 in gas. Have a follow up appointment on Friday so more $. Hopefully it heals fully and swiftly.

Same dog took a 2.5 inch stick up his nose when he was 4 months old. Spent $2500 at Blue Pearl for that episode. Ran something into a front foot on our first trip to ND at 8 months of age and we made a trip to the vet then too - x ray, meds, exam close to $200 as I recall.

Some do it yourself dog training/ownership/costs:

I have built two pigeon coops and started with $200 purchase of young homing pigeons. Probably have $1000 in materials and labor in the coops. Go through 80lbs of feed a month. Waters, Feeders were purchased as well.

Remote control Launchers, bird bags, bird crates, tip up cages, a few velcro bird harnesses.

Bolt together welded wire dog kennel from Tractor Supply, concrete blocks for housing live training ducks - mallards purchased at $15 apiece. More feeders and waterers. Multiple 4 hour round trips to buy ducks with $60 gas bills each trip plus the cost of the ducks each summer we are training. Annual DNR permit for training birds and signage for my training area on my farm - $50.

Kennel Carrier - one for winter, one wire for summer heat, an insulated cover for winter travel and time out on the road. A car radiator fan for the front of the kennel carrier in summer heat, deep cycle battery under the hood wired into the alternator.

Top quality food every day every month, plastic screw on/off lid with rubber seal, storage container therefore. Another smaller one for travel. Water bucket, insulated heated water bucket for winter, food bowls.

Bumpers 15 or so of them, dummy launcher, loads, blank gun, holster and blanks.

Check cord, couple of leashes, choke chain collar, pinch collar, two ecollars, multiple dog collars including blaze orange and camo for upland vs doves/waterfowl.

Homemade Training Table, posts and snow fence for constructing a fence/tunnel alongside the wall of my machine shed for early retrieve training/conditioning

Annual Dog Training Organization memberships - 3 of them.

Library of DVD training materials, books and publications - easily over $1000 at this point of 50 years of pursuing the passion.

Clinics and 1:1 Pro Trainer consult sessions along the way.

Dog boots, stake outs, first aid kits, quill jig, porcupine and snake avoidance classes.

Ear muffs for the dog riding in an airboat, neoprene dog vest for winter waterfowl, ground blind, marsh platform on legs ...

I do not think I have an exhaustive list above yet, and I won't go into waterfowl hunting gear which is a bottomless pit ...

For training one dog, it would be cheaper to go the pro trainer route vs buy all the startup costs I list above.

I love working with my dogs, and I have accumulated this equipment over years and utilized it over a succession of dogs.

But for one dog doing it yourself may well not be the lower cost option. It is the far more rewarding option for me and my dogs.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:43 pm

averageguy wrote:I had $1400 in my current dog before I even saw him. He injured his eye and we spent yesterday morning driving 3 hours round trip to Blue Pearl ER to the tune of $300 plus $55 in gas. Have a follow up appointment on Friday so more $. Hopefully it heals fully and swiftly.....
Good luck with the pup’s eye.

One of my setters had several slashes and a flap on his cornea that needed micro-surgery at TOSU vet hospital.
The young vet lady did a swell job and he was hunting shortly afterward....I was amazed at the speed of recovery.
The eye is one of the three fastest healing areas of the dog’s body...ours to, I reckon.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by averageguy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:57 pm

Thank you, Mtnr, Appreciate the comment.

Friday's appointment will be informative as to how well it is healing. Have had it happen with other dogs and they healed up swiftly with no lasting ill effects that I could discern. Hoping for the same here.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by Sharon » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:30 pm

Hope the dog's eye heals fully Mr Average guy- actually you are not an average guy; you are VERY knowledgeable about dogs and hunting. :)

I had a deer attack my setter. She wasn't chasing it, just happened upon it lying with its' fawn. Had a 16 inch tear along her side, skin flap hanging over and a punctured lung. $3600. but. she healed up fine.

Nothing cheap about owning a dog , let alone more than one.
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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by averageguy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:22 pm

Thank you Sharon. That was very inopportune deer encounter! Glad to hear your dog came through it ok.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by JonBailey » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:03 pm

averageguy wrote:I had $1400 in my current dog before I even saw him.

He injured his eye and we spent yesterday morning driving 3 hours round trip to Blue Pearl ER to the tune of $300 plus $55 in gas. Have a follow up appointment on Friday so more $. Hopefully it heals fully and swiftly.

Same dog took a 2.5 inch stick up his nose when he was 4 months old. Spent $2500 at Blue Pearl for that episode. Ran something into a front foot on our first trip to ND at 8 months of age and we made a trip to the vet then too - x ray, meds, exam close to $200 as I recall.

Some do it yourself dog training/ownership/costs:

I have built two pigeon coops and started with $200 purchase of young homing pigeons. Probably have $1000 in materials and labor in the coops. Go through 80lbs of feed a month. Waters, Feeders were purchased as well.

Remote control Launchers, bird bags, bird crates, tip up cages, a few velcro bird harnesses.

Bolt together welded wire dog kennel from Tractor Supply, concrete blocks for housing live training ducks - mallards purchased at $15 apiece. More feeders and waterers. Multiple 4 hour round trips to buy ducks with $60 gas bills each trip plus the cost of the ducks each summer we are training. Annual DNR permit for training birds and signage for my training area on my farm - $50.

Kennel Carrier - one for winter, one wire for summer heat, an insulated cover for winter travel and time out on the road. A car radiator fan for the front of the kennel carrier in summer heat, deep cycle battery under the hood wired into the alternator.

Top quality food every day every month, plastic screw on/off lid with rubber seal, storage container therefore. Another smaller one for travel. Water bucket, insulated heated water bucket for winter, food bowls.

Bumpers 15 or so of them, dummy launcher, loads, blank gun, holster and blanks.

Check cord, couple of leashes, choke chain collar, pinch collar, two ecollars, multiple dog collars including blaze orange and camo for upland vs doves/waterfowl.

Homemade Training Table, posts and snow fence for constructing a fence/tunnel alongside the wall of my machine shed for early retrieve training/conditioning

Annual Dog Training Organization memberships - 3 of them.

Library of DVD training materials, books and publications - easily over $1000 at this point of 50 years of pursuing the passion.

Clinics and 1:1 Pro Trainer consult sessions along the way.

Dog boots, stake outs, first aid kits, quill jig, porcupine and snake avoidance classes.

Ear muffs for the dog riding in an airboat, neoprene dog vest for winter waterfowl, ground blind, marsh platform on legs ...

I do not think I have an exhaustive list above yet, and I won't go into waterfowl hunting gear which is a bottomless pit ...

For training one dog, it would be cheaper to go the pro trainer route vs buy all the startup costs I list above.

I love working with my dogs, and I have accumulated this equipment over years and utilized it over a succession of dogs.

But for one dog doing it yourself may well not be the lower cost option. It is the far more rewarding option for me and my dogs.
Boy, that's more money than I'd ever care to dump into dogs. I would put animals down before I would accept any vet bill over $1,000.
The snake and Mr. Quills avoidance classes I fully concur with. I once spent $250 at an animal hospital to dequill my male Lab's face back in 2002.
Ear muffs for a dog on a boat. Nope. My former companion-only Labs loved the wind in their ears on my former boat. Dog life vest for boating? Yes. Floatation vest for
water retriever working a duck blind all day long? Yes. Camo vest for dog at dove stand? Maybe, I dunno. Boots for a dog? I don't do much outdoors stuff in snow.

I think most expensive vet bills can be avoided with common sense and good obedience training. Use leashes to restrain dogs in dangerous environments. Sending a dog
into a a COOL morning dove field for retrieves should not be dangerous like a minefield.I am aware that Labs are heat sensitive. Water activities are their best friend when
the thermometer turns red. I suspect Goldens aren't heat hardy as well. No dogs like heat much.
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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by averageguy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:37 pm

JonBailey wrote: Boy, that's more money than I'd ever care to dump into dogs. I would put animals down before I would accept any vet bill over $1,000.
The snake and Mr. Quills avoidance classes I fully concur with. I once spent $250 at an animal hospital to dequill my male Lab's face back in 2002.
Ear muffs for a dog on a boat. Nope. My former companion-only Labs loved the wind in their ears on my former boat. Dog life vest for boating? Yes. Floatation vest for
water retriever working a duck blind all day long? Yes. Camo vest for dog at dove stand? Maybe, I dunno. Boots for a dog? I don't do much outdoors stuff in snow.

I think most expensive vet bills can be avoided with common sense and good obedience training. Use leashes to restrain dogs in dangerous environments. Sending a dog
into a dove field for retrieves should not be dangerous like a minefield.
Jon, I am pretty sure you are just trolling us.

How about you and your dog take a ride on an air boat (which is what I posted) with no ear muffs on and you can both use sign language to communicate from that day forward. Now whether you will ever get into late season waterfowl hunting such that you and your dog are running up a frozen river riding in an airboat someday is up to you, but the hunting is consistently the best of the season.

I have never put a camo vest on a dog while dove hunting (as in coming on 50 years of it), plenty of cover for the dog to sit in most of the time. More critically it is nearly always hot such a dog would overheat and die if someone put a vest on on the poor dog. Now waterfowling in cold temps, wind and water, a quality good fitting neoprene vest is essential, as is a dry place out of the wind.

I have never booted a dog in snow. I use Mushers Secret for that. But hunting rocks (think Chukars in your state), and sand burs commonly require it, especially for a traveling hunter who cannot acclimate their dog to conditions over time, nor afford down time with sore pads. I make mine out of motorcycle inner tubes.

"Common sense is all that is needed to avoid injury to a dog in the field". Who knew it was that simple. Thanks for the chuckle.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by JonBailey » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:03 am

averageguy wrote:
JonBailey wrote: Boy, that's more money than I'd ever care to dump into dogs. I would put animals down before I would accept any vet bill over $1,000.
The snake and Mr. Quills avoidance classes I fully concur with. I once spent $250 at an animal hospital to dequill my male Lab's face back in 2002.
Ear muffs for a dog on a boat. Nope. My former companion-only Labs loved the wind in their ears on my former boat. Dog life vest for boating? Yes. Floatation vest for
water retriever working a duck blind all day long? Yes. Camo vest for dog at dove stand? Maybe, I dunno. Boots for a dog? I don't do much outdoors stuff in snow.

I think most expensive vet bills can be avoided with common sense and good obedience training. Use leashes to restrain dogs in dangerous environments. Sending a dog
into a dove field for retrieves should not be dangerous like a minefield.
Jon, I am pretty sure you are just trolling us.

How about you and your dog take a ride on an air boat (which is what I posted) with no ear muffs on and you can both use sign language to communicate from that day forward. Now whether you will ever get into late season waterfowl hunting such that you and your dog are running up a frozen river riding in an airboat someday is up to you, but the hunting is consistently the best of the season.

I have never put a camo vest on a dog while dove hunting (as in coming on 50 years of it), plenty of cover for the dog to sit in most of the time. More critically it is nearly always hot such a dog would overheat and die if someone put a vest on on the poor dog. Now waterfowling in cold temps, wind and water, a quality good fitting neoprene vest is essential, as is a dry place out of the wind.

I have never booted a dog in snow. I use Mushers Secret for that. But hunting rocks (think Chukars in your state), and sand burs commonly require it, especially for a traveling hunter who cannot acclimate their dog to conditions over time, nor afford down time with sore pads. I make mine out of motorcycle inner tubes.

"Common sense is all that is needed to avoid injury to a dog in the field". Who knew it was that simple. Thanks for the chuckle.
I don't troll since I gave up fishing a long time ago. The only boat I used to own was a Lowe 14.5' with a 25 HP Johnson two-stroke.
My Labs' ears were not bothered. They rode up on the bow with the wind in their face. By air boat do you mean a swamp buggy?
I guess if you drive a swamp buggy (one of those airplane fans in a cage?) you have to do what you have to do to protect Rover's ears. There are no swamps or gators in Idaho.
You might need a shallow-draft jet boat on some of our rivers but a prop deep-vee boat works fine on our lakes as long as you don't hit a snag.
A jon boat might work for duck hunters here.

Averageguy, are you down in Florida or Weezee-anna?
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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:03 am

The desire to help by sharing experience, good and bad fortune and, offering a hand along, is given in honesty and hope..often and sadly, it is unrewarded thru equality ‘cross the table.
However, the next hope is that someone, somewhere benefits beyond the waste.....I suspect that is true and, that it also helps a birddog.
Birddogs, after all, are at the core.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by averageguy » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:20 am

No I am not down south. Yes an airboat means an airboat. As in 800 hp driving a large prop. It's loud. Yes jet props work until the temps get sub-zero F and the river freezes (which is when the best hunting occurs). Then there will only be pockets of open water left where the current runs the strongest and only an air boat is going to get up and down the river.

You picked one equipment item in a long list and have made a running dialogue out of it. A mostly worthless dialogue except that it highlights once again your habit of arguing with someone about a subject you know nothing about.

Ear muffs for the dog were one equipment item in a long list I posted for your educational benefit as to the breathe and costs of dog training/hunting related equipment you may need. I mentioned it only as part of a theme to educate you that a good deal of specialized equipment for dog will be needed along the way if you get very deep into training/hunting. It can be done with less but most often the results will show it. Which works out fine for a lot of folks.

The vet bill side of the cost of ownership of a hunting dog does not pass over anyone for long however, and you should consider it carefully before jumping in.

It is pretty common that a hunting breed dog finds itself at a local pound. Educate yourself and then rescue one is my advice. You have Outdoor opportunity where you live that is the envy of most. Best of Luck.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by shags » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:35 am

JonBailey wrote:Boy, that's more money than I'd ever care to dump into dogs. I would put animals down before I would accept any vet bill over $1,000.
The snake and Mr. Quills avoidance classes I fully concur with. I once spent $250 at an animal hospital to dequill my male Lab's face back in 2002.
Ear muffs for a dog on a boat. Nope. My former companion-only Labs loved the wind in their ears on my former boat. Dog life vest for boating? Yes. Floatation vest for
water retriever working a duck blind all day long? Yes. Camo vest for dog at dove stand? Maybe, I dunno. Boots for a dog? I don't do much outdoors stuff in snow.

I think most expensive vet bills can be avoided with common sense and good obedience training. Use leashes to restrain dogs in dangerous environments. Sending a dog
into a a COOL morning dove field for retrieves should not be dangerous like a minefield.I am aware that Labs are heat sensitive. Water activities are their best friend when
the thermometer turns red. I suspect Goldens aren't heat hardy as well. No dogs like heat much.

I sincerely hope no dog ever finds itself in the unfortunate situation of being owned by you. Get yourself a housecat and spend innumerable hours researching and arguing whilst it purrs happily in your lap. :evil:

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by fishvik » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:40 am

averageguy wrote:It is pretty common that a hunting breed dog finds itself at a local pound. Educate yourself and then rescue one is my advice.
I've owned numerous dogs that came from this route. Almost all were outstanding hunters. Boise has as a large shelter, or go to http://dog.rescueme.org/Idaho and you'll have a wide pick.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:17 am

In the ever-ongoing quest for knowledge....I just noticed the mention of a “swamp buggy”. That would be much different than an airboat, to me.

The buggy of the swamp is a tall, high-axeled large-wheeled vehicle not propelled by a prop....at least it was back in the 60s when I took a ride in Florida....I believe any kid who went for a ride was christened as, the King of the Swamp Buggys.... :D .

Ah well, good memories....sorry, back to birddogs and being there.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by mtlhdr » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:15 pm

Hunting in CA will be completely lead-free in 2019 (they've been phasing in the lead ban over the last few years). A couple years ago I was bored and ran a little reloading cost comparison between a few readily available non-tox shot types. This is for 1 1/8 oz of shot.
Shot Comp.JPG
I calculated another $0.28 per shell for the shotshell, powder, and wad. This was 2016 so I imagine prices have gone up some. Anyways, interesting to see how the price for the various shot stacks up against each other, as well as the potential savings of reloading your own shells.

For me, the shot I use depends on what I'm hunting. Wild pheasant hunting is a low volume affair for me so I wouldn't mind springing for a more expensive hevi-shot type shell. Quail, on the other hand, is a lot of quick shots in heavy cover that oftentimes results in as many misses as hits. In this case, I opt for steel.
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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by JONOV » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:26 am

The recoil concerns are Much ado about nothing, unless you buy 3.5 inch goose loads. There was a time when technology hadn't come around, and the only way was to push steel super fast. This isn't the case anymore. Add to that, its not felt the same, for a lot of reasons. The volume isn't there as it would be on the trap range, you're in motion which seems to diffuse the recoil, you're almost always bundled up, which adds padding, etc...

Obviously, it kicks more than a trap load, but its about on par with any other game load like a quality lead shell for pheasants.

Kent Fasteel is popular and can be had for less than $15 a box. Similarly, Federal Black Cloud is in that price range and works well, though some don't care for it, I've found it to fold birds effectively. For a bit more, but not a lot more, both Hevi Metal and Hevi Steel are good choices.

When my wife joins me on duck hunts, she shoots 28 gauge with 6 shot Bismuth. It has killed big divers (blue bills, redheads,) though she is very picky about her shots, she has rarely ever needed a follow up shot.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:55 pm

You know I can honestly say I have never felt a gun kick when shooting at a bird, never.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by JONOV » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:46 pm

ezzy333 wrote:You know I can honestly say I have never felt a gun kick when shooting at a bird, never.
A lot of people say that, and they are often correct in their own mind...But they still flinch.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:53 pm

JONOV wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:You know I can honestly say I have never felt a gun kick when shooting at a bird, never.
A lot of people say that, and they are often correct in their own mind...But they still flinch.
Don't think so. I flinch when shooting paper but not birds in the least. Too many other things to think about, dog, bird, other hunters, so why would I shy from something I never experienced?

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by averageguy » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:00 am

Actually recoil is very real. It shows up most when heavy loads are combined with light shotguns.

Both my 28 gauges weigh 5 lbs. When using Fiocchi Golden Pheasant loads I will notice when I touch off that load. Shoot enough rounds of skeet with Win AA SuperSports and you will start to notice it as well. I have 3 autoloading 12 gauges which weigh 6 lbs. and will notice recoil when using Fiocchi Golden Pheasant loads in them. My SBE2 and A5 weigh 7 lbs - touch off a 3.5 inch goose or turkey load in them and it will get your attention. Do it while patterning loads and you will REALLY notice it. Far more recoil than my .300 Win Mag.

Except while hunting doves and some forms of waterfowl hunting (some hunts include a great deal of wading/walking), I carry my guns far more than I shoot them so I favor the lightest gun for the gauge available, but it comes at a price of increased felt recoil. The 3.5 inch loads in a 7 lb gun is mostly prohibitive and I much prefer a quality 3 inch Tungsten load because of it.

Good after market recoil pads are underrated and underutilized. As is hearing protection. Much of felt recoil is the muzzle blast. I picked up a pair of Soundgear electronic noise reduction ear plugs ($400) and wore them for 8 months of hunting last season. Excellent product.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by JONOV » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:01 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
JONOV wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:You know I can honestly say I have never felt a gun kick when shooting at a bird, never.
A lot of people say that, and they are often correct in their own mind...But they still flinch.
Don't think so. I flinch when shooting paper but not birds in the least. Too many other things to think about, dog, bird, other hunters, so why would I shy from something I never experienced?

Ezzy
The next time you have a misfire (forgot to reload, shell was a dud, etc...) pay attention to if you flinched.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by fishvik » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:39 pm

I agree with Ezzy. I've had misfires or forgotten to load and never remember flinching. I think Ezzy is right there are too many things going on to flinch from what is a pretty light recoil. I shoot an 870 with 1 1/8 oz loads usually.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:52 pm

In general, there are two reasons we flinch:

1) Anticipation of felt recoil....from load, stock, volume, fatigue, etc.

2) A loss of focus on the bird or clay.

I have flinched from both, with recoil it has been through an accumulation from years at clays.....with a vision flinch, I simply lost sight of clay or bird and could write my name with the end of the barrel.
Flinch happens...no big deal, in most cases.

As a side note...I love the shuffle and the slam of an actual Auto 5.
One would think those might make flinchers out of some folks.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by oldbeek » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:28 am

Been testing steel here in CA. Kent, steel field loads do kick. Very noticeable over lead. May need to add a recoil pad. lead 8 is steel 6. . Mod = full, cyl = mod in steel. Steel can cause enough pressure to blow the end off a full barrel. Do not shoot steel in a full barrel. Kill power even with larger shot is lower with steel. Dove hunting? Arizona here I come.

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Re: Which non-toxic shotgun shells are best in regard to pellet

Post by Tooling » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:01 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
JONOV wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:You know I can honestly say I have never felt a gun kick when shooting at a bird, never.
A lot of people say that, and they are often correct in their own mind...But they still flinch.
Ezzy said, "Don't think so. I flinch when shooting paper but not birds in the least. Too many other things to think about, dog, bird, other hunters, so why would I shy from something I never experienced?" (sorry - 3 quotes disallowed by site)

--
I agree w/JONOV because when I have a misfire, my flinch rears its ugly head. It's not pretty. One day I'll cure what ails me. But, I must say - like Ezzy, I sure don't notice a flinch in the field and I tend to be a pretty good wing-shot. Unless of course my dog's done everything right :)

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