Is this Behaviour called being Gun Shy?

[JAY]

When I prepare my 22 caliper launcher to propel a dummy 300 feet away, both my Short Hairs position themselves to chase the flying dummy. They seek out the landed dummy and pick it up. Then they lay the dummy on the ground near where it landed and sit by the dummy. They do not retrieve the dummy back to me at my launch position.

They do proper retrieves back to me when I hand-through balls, Frisbees, or the dummy.

They do not run away from me nor are they skittish when I fire the launcher. Instead they act existed to chase after the flying dummy.


I think their refusal to return the dummy to me is they are avoiding the loud sound of the launcher. Are they acting Gun Shy?

[cjhills]

JAY
Are you running them together? Possessiveness can cause issues. Are they young dogs? What loads do you use in the launcher? The higher powered Ramset loads bother a lot of dogs. I have also had issues with shotgun primers in blank pistols. Maybe lighter loads will help. There is really no reason for 100yard retrieves. Accept that it is fun.
Obviously, something is bother them. It is likely the sound. It might help if somebody else fires the dummy from father away.......Cj

[JAY]

answer to cjhillis:

Thank You.

He is 6 years old and always would run to pick up the landed dummy and sit by it instead of bringing it to me. She joined him 2 years ago when she was a pup. They have the described behaviour whether together or alone.

I use Power Level 4. The highest level, 5, I occasionally use for launching.

I too have come to believe they want to avoid ear pain from the launcher's noise. Since they both respond to my quiet whispers, they must have excellent/sensitive hearing. I always made them stay more than 50 feet away when I fired the launcher. I might experiment to find a greater separation to lower the noise or pain they experience.

On the other hand, I do not want to cause my dogs loss of hearing due to my use of the launcher. "Fun" is my goal and they are highly enthusiastic about endlessly Retrieving Frisbees every day. And when the season comes they get to Hunt and Point real Game Birds; hence, my Short Hairs get to experience the life of a Gundog, just without the sound of the gun.

Jay

[410]

Hey Jay,

This doesn’t sound like a case of gunshyness to me. Gunshy dogs often put their tail between their legs and display very obvious nervous behavior. If they seem excited to play this game and don’t hesitate after hearing the shot, I think it’s another issue. 100 yards is a long retrieve for some dogs but I assume they’ve brought frisbees back from that distance? They might just want to spend extra time with it because they’re thinking this dummy flying through the air is the most exciting thing they’ve played with all week. If you can encourage them to bring it back, let them have it for a little bit and give them LOTS of praise. Otherwise try firing a blank and hand throwing it to try to stretch those dummy retrieves out to 100 yards over the week

[JAY]

to 410:

Additional observations suggest my two GSPs are Gun Shy (or Launcher Shy); because, the fired launcher's noise hurts their ears.

With the empty launcher on the living room floor, both dog's tail moves fully down. The 6 year old sits staring at the launcher. The 2 year old shivers and clings to me. They both show no concern about the launcher's dummy.

Outdoors both dogs retrieve the hand-thrown launcher-dummy; however, their tails are half-way down. With the Frisbee their tails are fully up.

The 6 year old will enthusiastically hunt and then retrieve the launcher-fired dummy provided I keep him at least 70 feet away when I launch. For retrieving he needs me to use the "Come" whistle. He does not need me whistling when I hand-throw the dummy.

The 2 year old will not leave my side when she knows the launcher is near. She forgets what "Stay" means; therefore, I can not keep her away should I want to fire the launcher.

The noise of the launcher is uncomfortable for me though I wear noise cancelling head muffs. My GSP's hearing is far better. I shall not want to cause it damage. We have lots of other activities that the dogs find exciting.

[cjhills]

I have had exactly the same experience with some of my dogs. They were all from the same bloodlines. All were great retrievers but hated the sound. I think the younger ones learned it from watching the older female. Once they get that in their head it is very hard to change. I pretty much quit using the launcher. I have had the same issue with blank pistols and shotgun primers. The shotgun never bothered any of them and all were great hunting dogs and passed master hunt tests. Some learned to blink birds in hunt tests to avoid the sound. I would get as far from the dog as I could before firing the blank pistol..........Cj
PS. IOt might help to have somebody else launch from a distance.
Do they have Hillhaven's Hustler back in there pedigree

[JAY]

to cjhills:

I too have put my launcher away. I got it 6 years ago. My GSP would excitedly race forward when he sensed me about to fire the launcher. He would diligently find the fallen dummy in heavy brush and bring it to the edge of the meadow. He would patiently sit by the dummy, watching me; rarely bringing it to me. I found this not much fun so I stopped until I got my second GSP.; but, she must have learned from him.

The whole point is for me and dogs to have fun every day. And I have lots of activities for such. Frisbee retrieval gives they fun competing and running, and pleasing me. I also whistler and hand signal trained them. They are most enthused playing "Find It". What's when I signal them to Stay while I go away to hide something in the meadow. The "Find It" signal sends them on the way hunting. And if the hidden thing is a bird, they get to Point.

Training and playing with them is the ultimate of fun.

[cjhills]

I have to admit I did think the dummy launcher was fun, I really liked the long retrieves. The dogs did too at first. Mine were fine with the retrieve once they were on their way. It was hard to notice at first, since I was watching the dummy instead of the dogs. But it got continually worse.
I finally started carrying a dummy and throwing it when we go on walks and occasionally shooting a blank primer pistol when they were on the retrieve. Soon they ignored the pistol and have a good time again. It was definitely a problem for awhile and I never used the launcher after that............Cj

[gonehuntin']

This behavior is in no way gunshyness. You have to realize that there are four parts to every retrieve. Going out for the retrieve, picking up the object of the retrieve, returning with the object, delivering the object to hand. With some dog's, each part of that retrieve has to be trained. Some do it naturally. I always hesitate to tell amateur trainers to force train their dog. It is an involved process. I much prefer to have a new owner teach the animal to hold and carry and forget the force. It is an involved process and the best DVD on it is by Evan Graham, called Smart Fetch.

What you can try is to put a 1" dowel rod, a foot long in his mouth, tell him to hold and putting it back in his mouth when he drops it. Tell him "Drop" to take it from him. Then teach him to walk at heel holding it, then stopping and dropping it in your hand on command. That's a very short version.

It's an easy problem to fix buy one that should be addressed.

[JAY]

to gonehuntin:

I agree with your assertion that a dog trained to "retrieve" involves training for each of 4 consecutive retrieving steps.

My 2 GSPs do not accomplish the final 2 steps (returning the (launched) dummy and delivering to hand); therefore, you write that they are not gun-shy but are instead are not properly trained. I understand your thinking process and opinion.

I think trained behaviour in one environment might not work for another. For example, my 2 GSPs complete the "4-step retrieve" for hand-thrown balls, Frisbees, sticks, dummies, etc. They deliver to my hand without need for any reward. But, I was unsuccessful in training them to consistently return the launched dummy. Should they occasionally return the lunched dummy I would make a big fuss and give treats; but, there was no improvement. Hence my GSPs failure to retrieve launched dummies could be interpreted as poor training and not as being gun-shy.

Since I see their tails down when I use the launcher versus their tails up when I hand-throw dummies, I assume they want to avoid the noise of the launcher (and presumably any gun). So they might be both gun-shy and poorly trained.

[gonehuntin']

A gun shy dog is a pitiful thing to behold. They will run away, sometimes for miles, and hide in culverts, under vehicles, etc. They are terrror stricken. Yours are simple not happy about noise. They're not afraid of it, they just don't like it. It is because of how you introduced the gun or noise to them. You should ALWAYS intorduce gun fire at a distance and ALWAYS associate it pleasantly with birds. The bird gives them the reason for the loud noise.

The way you're doing it, every time they don't bring the bumper in they have just won and you have just lost. The more you beg them to bring the dummy back, the happier the dog is because he is not obeying a command but is training you. You have to learn to think like a dog and not a person. Some people can, some can't. When things go wrong in training sessions about 90% of the time it's because the trainer has not properly trained the dog in each step of the process or behavior he is trying to achieve. We skip steps then get upset with the dog because they don't comply as we think they should. Think and teach.

It's also interesting first that you bought two dog's with no clear training plan to proceed with on them, and second that both dog's have developed exactly the same problem. That shows there is a hugh hole in your training program created by YOU, the trainer and not the dog's. If you overcome this problem another is sure to crop up because and organized program and training program was not followed. Get a good training program, start from square one, and begin again. It will go much faster than with a pup because the dogs do have some foundation to build on. I hesitate to give you too much information because I firmly believe you should invest in a proven program and follow it step by step. No shortcuts, no jumping ahead. Step by step.