best self defense ammo for 12 ga. 28" bbl?

GSPVIZ · Post by **GSPVIZ** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:43 pm

In your opinion what is the best load to use in a 12 ga. with a 28" bbl for home defense?

00 buck?

lightonthebay · Post by **lightonthebay** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:12 am

Unless you live in a mansion where the distance between you and the scum bag are large, I would pick # 1 buck. It is plenty big enough to supply great penetration on a worthless carcass and it carries more pellets than #00 buck. #1 buck is .24 diameter and carries 16 pellets in a standard 2.75 load while #00 buck is .33 diameter and carries 9 pellets per standard 2.75 load. I am assuming your goal is to end a confrontation rather than be politicaly correct.
Frankly, I believe any load from a shotgun at typical room size ranges (10-15 feet) would be fine. However, smaller pellets are less likely to penetrate through walls toward the innocent.

GSPVIZ · Post by **GSPVIZ** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:55 am

Thanks for the help!

sjohnny · Post by **sjohnny** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:43 am

#1 to 00 will be fine. I wouldn't go any smaller than #1. Anything that will reliably penetrate a badguy will also penetrate a wall. Train and practice so you hit the bad guy should the need arise. When things go bump in the night in and around my house if I don't just go with a handgun (which is what I normally grab) I have 00 loaded in my shotgun. Practice moving around your house with that long barrel. I put an 18.5" barrel on my Mossberg when I'm not using it for hunting, much easier to manuever around than with the 28" barrel.

John

EddieF · Post by **EddieF** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:46 am

sjohnny wrote:#1 to 00 will be fine. I wouldn't go any smaller than #1. Anything that will reliably penetrate a badguy will also penetrate a wall. Train and practice so you hit the bad guy should the need arise. When things go bump in the night in and around my house if I don't just go with a handgun (which is what I normally grab) I have 00 loaded in my shotgun. Practice moving around your house with that long barrel. I put an 18.5" barrel on my Mossberg when I'm not using it for hunting, much easier to manuever around than with the 28" barrel.

John

Yeah there are a lot of short barreled tactical shotguns available for not much money. I always look at them in the shows but never walk away with one. One of these days I will...

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:15 pm

I believe that Mossberg has a tactical home defense gun labeled the J.I.C. "Just In Case"

It's relatively inexpensive from what I can remember.

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:47 am

Also, for about $100 you can pick up an 18 inch barrel for the 870. The longer barrel can be a little clumsy working the house, maybe in the dark.

EddieF · Post by **EddieF** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:35 am

gar-dog wrote:Also, for about $100 you can pick up an 18 inch barrel for the 870. The longer barrel can be a little clumsy working the house, maybe in the dark.

I know this isn't my thread, but I did want to add that the 18" barrel is only available in 12 ga. I wanted one for my 20 ga. 870 and they don't have it.

vikings269 · Post by **vikings269** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:43 am

i actually think #4 buckshot is the best load for such purposes, more likely to hit and your intention isnt to kill but just take out and like its likely theyd survive anyway! i dropped a red fox dead in its tracks at 150 plus yard with such shot in improved cylinder, ya it was a lucky shot, he had 2 pellets in him, 1 in the neck the other in the back, i aimed 2 feet in front of him and 6 feet above, was that the center of the pattern? what the heck would the paattern look like at that range? for me to hit him with 2 pellets is pretty lucky! thats my lethal load and im sticking with it!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:29 am

For the life of me I can't see that it makes a bit of difference what you use as long as you hit what you are aiming at. For the sake of safety of the family that might be in an enjoining room I guess I would pick any fairly small shot that wouldn't penetrate the walls. But as far as putting a person down, lets change this around and tell me which shell I can shoot you with that won't stop you in your tracks or do you great bodily harm or death? Remember you are shooting from point blank range. A BB gun would stop you if that BB hit you in the right place and with a shotgun a BB will hit in that right place.

Ezzy

WolfMansDad · Post by **WolfMansDad** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:27 pm

00 Buck is fine and widely available. I don't have any personal experience with it on humans, but I have dispatched animals in the 100-150lb range, and they all went down immediately and didn't get back up. I would not worry about its performance on even an armed or "chemically-enhanced" human attacker. Be aware, though, that 00 Buck comes in two flavors, hunting and law-enforcement. Law-enforcement loads are often underpowered to reduce recoil. They use fewer pellets at lower velocity than your typical hunting load. It may or may not matter, but my home-defense loads are federal 00B hunting loads.

Another option is rifled slugs. Buck patterns are usually pretty thin and ragged past about 15 yards, but slugs can be used effectively out to 100 or so. If you think you might be defending the homestead in the event of riots or some such, slugs might be a better choice.

GSPVIZ · Post by **GSPVIZ** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:04 am

I went with 00 Buck.

Thanks!

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:35 pm

At a rooms distance plain old garden variety birdshells will tear anything a new one,If you don't believe me pattern your gun with a modified choke at 15 feet,it's going to tear a 2 inch hole through the paper.The boogey man is going to be hurtin for certain with a two inch hole ripped out of him,shoot to kill not to wound,in other words bang away until you hear click.Actually truth is that the familiar sound of an 870 slide can't be mistaken for anything else and more than likely the only thing required to run em off.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:05 pm

You just made my point. You can load it with rock salt and do just as good a job at the distance you are shooting at within a house.

Ezzy

markj · Post by **markj** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:21 pm

Rusty nails

I use slugs. Any bird shot wil also do, I have some copperplated #2.

WolfMansDad · Post by **WolfMansDad** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:13 pm

For all you guys contemplating shotgun use indoors, keep in mind two very important things.

1. A 12 gauge fired indoors is very loud, much louder than when fired outdoors, and short barrels make more noise than long ones. Of course, if your life is on the line, your hearing is the last thing you will be worried about, but your ears will ring for a good long time after even a single indoor shot.

2. Do not make the same mistake my friend's dad made when I was 13. DO NOT shoot a skunk inside your house, ever, with anything. You will regret it for a long, long time.

Southwind · Post by **Southwind** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:23 pm

I am in Law Enforcement and the new Federal LE 00 Buck is the nicest round on the market. It holds together so well that we had to move our qualification course from the 7 yd. line to the 10 yd line. At the 7 very few of the pellets were even leaving the wad. With other brands such as Remington, you start getting nice patterns at the 5-7 yd line. Don't be fooled, if you are shooting the length of a hallway, plan on having a couple pellets stray with any kind of 00 buck you use. I would never use the guage if civilians were near my target, and would not even consider bird shot in my home shotgun.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:11 pm

WolfMansDad wrote:For all you guys contemplating shotgun use indoors, keep in mind two very important things.

1. A 12 gauge fired indoors is very loud, much louder than when fired outdoors, and short barrels make more noise than long ones. Of course, if your life is on the line, your hearing is the last thing you will be worried about, but your ears will ring for a good long time after even a single indoor shot.

2. Do not make the same mistake my friend's dad made when I was 13. DO NOT shoot a skunk inside your house, ever, with anything. You will regret it for a long, long time.

Thanks I needed that......Sorry but thats funny but then again wasn't my house

buDDget hunter · Post by **buDDget hunter** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:30 am

With all due respect to Southwind I have to disagree. If I am making entry into a house then yeah, I want #00. However in my house my daughters sleep in another room seperated by only 2 layers of sheetrock and the occasional 2X4. I don't want anything that penetrates any more than a #6. I would much rather the hypothetical bad guy gets away injured than my daughters catch a load of buck shot. My home defense gun is a old winchester w/ a 20" barrel, no choke and #7 1/2s inside.

lightonthebay · Post by **lightonthebay** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:06 am

BuDDget I agree with your logic, however, I would amend your statement to include -- criminal hit with 71/2 shot will not get away wounded if he is struck with that round at typical household ranges (15 feet or less). Any speculation about small BB's not penetrating well enough to drop an opponent under these circumstances is unrealistic -- they will! (unless of course you hit him in the toe or pinky). If struck in the limb -- they will loose the use of that limb. If struck any place near the Gizzard -- they will lose use the use of their will to proceed. If struck in the face -- they ain't gonna' be pretty no more and as a bonus they will at least lose the use of all their senses except touch. It might be worth it for some of the contributors to give it a "test try" outside at 15 feet to see what happens. If you can't supply your own criminal test target then use some other aproximation of fleshy density. I think you'll be favorably impressed.
I believe Ezzy and Wildweed summed this issue up correctly early on!

Southwind · Post by **Southwind** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:08 pm

I am sure my attitude will change when its more than my wife and I in the house. Until then, I will keep my 00.

lightonthebay · Post by **lightonthebay** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:53 pm

Sothwind, there's nothing wrong with tailoring the load to your circumstances and comfort level.

EddieF · Post by **EddieF** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:54 am

Not trying to hijack the thread, but I just picked up this nice home defense tool from a neighbor for under $200! I'm going with 00.

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:19 pm

Have you shot it yet? I have a fealing that it wouldn't feal so great on the wrist.

EddieF · Post by **EddieF** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:20 pm

Sadie__Marie wrote:Have you shot it yet? I have a fealing that it wouldn't feal so great on the wrist.

No, haven't shot it yet. It came with another stock but with this one it fits in a dresser drawer. I'm sure it's not comfortable, but it's not a recreational gun. I have some handguns that aren't very fun to shoot but can be if needed.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:23 pm

Would be my guess from what experience I have had that it would be next to impossible to hit anything with it unless you had the muzzle against your target or darn close to it.

Ezzy

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:57 pm

Everyone who's ever watched a hollywood movie knows exactly what that "Cha chink" sound of a shell shucker means,I'd be willing to bet the farm that 95 times out of a hundred that the "Cha Chink" sound alone will run off an invader who has their wit's about them,the other 5 will be hopped up on dope and feel invincible.

naperdog · Post by **naperdog** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:04 am

my buddy is considering the pistol grip shot gun as well to better fit into his bedroom. He is talking about a laser pointer to help accuracy, the kick might still throw him off, but he can at least start with good aim. I shot one of those 10 years ago and it did not feel good!

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:26 pm

You might be able to add a folding stock or adjustable stock to the pistol grip. Make it alot more usable and still mantain the small profile.

something similar to this

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... hasJS=true

or
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... hasJS=true

EddieF · Post by **EddieF** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:31 pm

Sadie__Marie wrote:You might be able to add a folding stock or adjustable stock to the pistol grip. Make it alot more usable and still mantain the small profile.

something similar to this

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... hasJS=true

or
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... hasJS=true

I like that second one, thanks for the links!

sjohnny · Post by **sjohnny** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:55 pm

Bird shot will not reliably penetrate enough to stop a person dead in their tracks. If someone is intent on doing you bodily harm you do not want to hurt them badly to where they will bleed out and die 5 minutes to an hour later. They need to drop dead right where they stand. The 5 minutes it takes for them to bleed to death is more than enough time for them to kill you. Buckshot is the only thing that will penetrate enough to reliably hit vitals/CNS and stop the fight right then and there (even then you have to aim). Bird shot might stop the fight - I don't want to bet my life on might. Anything that will penetrate a bad guy will also penetrate a wall. Training and practice are your friends to ensure that all the pellets/bullets go where they are supposed to go. As for racking the gun sending them all running - 95% of the time it might, I don't want to bet my life that I have that 5% guy who all I've done is given away my location. Just don't count on him/them running for their lives at the sound of your gun.

This is from The Box O' Truth http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm - Lots of really good information on the site.

"Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side."

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:41 pm

Reading all of this thread I am beginning to realize I wasted a lot of time teaching my kids to be safe with a shotguin when in the field. I had no idea that a 20 or 12 guage loaded with birdshot wasn't very dangerous. We even have told people a shotgun was great protection from most wild animals including cats and bears. The main requirement was just hit what you are shooting at. And now I find out you need buckshot to do great bodily harm to a person at 10 feet. Guess my little 9mm with its small bullets are worthless too.

I know any shotgun loaded with anything will stop a person at 10 feet if you hit him. And I would just as soon wound the person rather than kill someone outright if I have my choice. But I also have to admit that home protection is not high on my list so I haven't kept a gun loaded most of the time and even have the door unlocked many times. Guess it is because I grew up in a house without locks. Even stopped at my sons house today in town and the back door was unlocked as he seldom ever locks it. I just don't see home protection as a major problem unless you live in a getto in the city and I even wonder then if the problem isn't completely over blown my the media that need something startling to report . And if it isn't then I would move.

Think you are all talking real over kill.

JMO
Ezzy

sjohnny · Post by **sjohnny** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:58 pm

You do what makes you comfortable. Like I tell the folks I instruct - I won't be at your fight.
Nobody said birdshot wouldn't hurt or kill somebody, it just isn't as effective as buckshot. I want to use the most effective fight stopper I can if the need arises. If someone is intent on doing you harm the idea is to stop them from doing it as fast as you possibly can. The best way to do that is to drop them dead on the spot. Buckshot does that way more effectively than birdshot. The human body does a great job of slowing down buckshot and keeping it from penetrating walls. Training and practice will help make sure your pellets go where they are supposed to go.

All that being said - my go to gun to investigate bumps in the night is a handgun. The only reason being that I have a lot more training and experience with a handgun than with a long gun.

I live in a rural area but there have been some break-ins around me. I go to ghetto areas for work. I've seen break-ins/home invasions happen in well to do areas as well. No place is 100% safe. Preparation is your friend - this includes other measures so you never have to use your gun: alarm, good locks, loud dog, etc.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:26 pm

That's it,Im goin outside right now to implement the "TRUE" test, pictures will be available in minutes,I'm going to use a remington 870,28 inch barrel with I/C choke at 15 feet,Im going to use a 2 3/4 shell with 6's. back in a few.So the shell I used was a lowbase 6 gameload,15 feet range and the result is........................looks like it'd hurt something fierce and be deadly in the head and shoulders region.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:24 pm

At 15 feet it is like hitting with a slug. Still pretty much a solid group with little expanding yet.

Ezzy

sjohnny · Post by **sjohnny** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:41 pm

But each pellet is still a separate entity with only as much mass as the one pellet. Pattern is great but penetration is what stops the fight. I've had 6s that don't penetrate a dove, I'm definitely not going to bet my life that it will penetrate a bad guy sufficient to take him completely out of the fight.

Also, on the pistol grip only shotgun:
Practice with it to make sure you can make accurate controlled shots and quick accurate follow-up shots. I have a regular stock on my shotgun because that's what I can shoot the best. YMMV.

Bottom line is - it's your life, not mine. I don't believe in majic bullets but if I have to shoot someone I want to put them down fast and end the fight. Birdshot will not reliably do that - buckshot will. I'm not going to volunteer to get shot with it but that doesn't mean it's a good fight stopper. I will not trust my life and my family to birdshot. I use relatively powerful handguns (.45ACP, .357SIG, .40S&W) and 00 Buckshot for defensive purposes. I save birdshot for small game.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:54 pm

Just imagine a 3 inch magnum steel load with BBB's,it'd be a round hole I bet,Imagine it with a full choke.It's dark now but later on this week I'll administer some more practical testing with punkins,differnt shells and chokes from 15 feet.I've got ton's of birdshot laying around but 0 buckshot of anykind for a comparison.The quickee test I administerd tonite though has reinforced my suspicions of birshot being plenty good enough to dam sure disable a boogey man.

Overkill with guns is commonplace though,My buddy thinks that a .338 is the minimum caliber gun for,any deer species.

sjohnny · Post by **sjohnny** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:53 pm

Pumpkins and paper targets aren't fighting back and trying to kill you. They don't have a will to survive and fight.

Do what you want. Hopefully you'll never have to find out for sure whether it works or not.

lightonthebay · Post by **lightonthebay** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:02 pm

I don't believe anyone has ever hit a dove at 15 feet with any birdshot that did not penetrate adequately. I'll admit the effectiveness would diminish exponentially for any shot at increased yardage but that ain't part of the hypothetical. I've done the same test wildweeds and I am impressed. I ain't trying to convince anyone to change their mind regarding the adequacey of birdshot at close range for home defense but I'll add -- I'd bet my life on its effectiveness. I wouldn't be afraid of using #OO buck either. I am sure either would be an effective killer at that range.

lightonthebay · Post by **lightonthebay** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:07 pm

sjohnny wrote:Pumpkins and paper targets aren't fighting back and trying to kill you. They don't have a will to survive and fight.

Do what you want. Hopefully you'll never have to find out for sure whether it works or not.

Neither does drywall but pumpkins would be a closer analogy to human flesh because they both contain the aproximate same amount of water. I look forward to seeing the results of the pumpkin test.

sjohnny · Post by **sjohnny** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:11 pm

I can put my hand completely through a pumpkin without much force at all.

They are fun to shoot though

lightonthebay · Post by **lightonthebay** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:14 pm

sjohnny wrote:I can put my hand completely through a pumpkin without much force at all.

They are fun to shoot though

Holy cow! you don't need a shotgun!

vikings269 · Post by **vikings269** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:08 pm

Birdshot will not reliably do that

well if ya can hit a flying pheasant (approximately the mass or size of a human head) why would that load be bad for human defense when your at closer range and way slower movement? give me the lightest shotgun load ya got and if ya take it in the face i guarantee if your not dead your blind as heck, think about it. would ya be shooting at his leather jacket? know your load and your game and shoot accordingly, the only bad of using bird shot for home defense is when your shooting at a distance, that doesnt seem to be the case here. if i was shooting from the house to the street, which would be rare i would want some heavier buckshot. and i seriously believe in a hallway even if he took birdshot blast to the chest he would go down hard even wearing a military approved bullet proof vest. sure he might get up after a bit but come on that knock the wind out of anyone plus give ya the time to either hold the gun on him and tell him to stay down or execute him in the face if he denies your request! this is really a silly argument.

GSPVIZ · Post by **GSPVIZ** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:59 am

Let's settle this.....who will volunteer to be our test dummy?!

lightonthebay · Post by **lightonthebay** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:01 am

GSPVIZ wrote:Let's settle this.....who will volunteer to be our test dummy?!

We must be fair about this. Each advocate squares off at fifteen feet, -- the one who has the less than leathal birdshot load gets to shoot first.(gives the other guy a chance to respond)

I am intrigued by the collison between the world of theory and reality!

gotblika · Post by **gotblika** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:04 pm

just call myth busters already

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:38 pm

vikings269 wrote:
Birdshot will not reliably do that
well if ya can hit a flying pheasant (approximately the mass or size of a human head) why would that load be bad for human defense when your at closer range and way slower movement? give me the lightest shotgun load ya got and if ya take it in the face i guarantee if your not dead your blind as heck, think about it. would ya be shooting at his leather jacket? know your load and your game and shoot accordingly, the only bad of using bird shot for home defense is when your shooting at a distance, that doesnt seem to be the case here. if i was shooting from the house to the street, which would be rare i would want some heavier buckshot. and i seriously believe in a hallway even if he took birdshot blast to the chest he would go down hard even wearing a military approved bullet proof vest. sure he might get up after a bit but come on that knock the wind out of anyone plus give ya the time to either hold the gun on him and tell him to stay down or execute him in the face if he denies your request! this is really a silly argument.

No, but slugs will. Hit someone in the chest while he is wearing a good leather coat and you only get him mad. Hit him with a slug and you will at least break multiple ribs and get him mad.

Swanyriver · Post by **Swanyriver** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:23 pm

Wildweeds wrote:Actually truth is that the familiar sound of an 870 slide can't be mistaken for anything else and more than likely the only thing required to run em off.

Ain't this the truth!!!!!

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:02 am

LMAO!!!!!!!!I ain't got anything real pressing to do tomorrow,initiating squash test,they are still green so It should represent a fairly good test reality wise.I'll root around in my coffee can of treasures and see about some 3" steel BBB's,high horsepower 2 3/4 5-6 shot,and regular garden variety low power AA's for trap.

lightonthebay wrote:
GSPVIZ wrote:Let's settle this.....who will volunteer to be our test dummy?!
We must be fair about this. Each advocate squares off at fifteen feet, -- the one who has the less than leathal birdshot load gets to shoot first.(gives the other guy a chance to respond)

I am intrigued by the collison between the world of theory and reality!

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:49 am

00 Buck.Show Stopper.