Gun Dog Forum

I recently read an interview with the "Duck Commander" Phil Robertson. I can't remeber what magazine it was in, but he was saying that most of the ducks they kill are shot at very close range in order to get them on camera. The camera makes them look farther away than they really are. Makes sense, right? But then he goes on to say that most of them use a full choke. Why? If they're shooting their ducks at such close range, wouldn't an open choke work better?

Makes no sense to me, unless it is only to brag that with such a tight pattern they can hit birds at close range, as the pattern will be very small. The ducks are likely so shot up they aren't worth eating.

I have no problem killing early season, close in timber birds with IC choke and only switch to modified for snow geese. All my geese are shot with a IC choke as well. Most steel shot patterns tighter than lead.......a full choke steel load is like shooting a extra full choke with lead.

I listen very little to most of the people who do hunting shows, especially for waterfowl.

Those bearded folks appear to shoot a lot of ducks...I expect that experience factors into success irrespective of choke.

I would also expect that they like to see very convincing hits and very dead ducks for video presentation....I doubt they would use any choke that does not serve their particular needs well....especially if they may seek to lend their name to a tube...or a cartouche.
Whether those needs are exactly anyone else's...is doubtful.
There is also the possibility that they choke for the tougher birds and not the most plentiful shots...if camera time is important, and I expect it is, then being ready for the worst has likely paid off for them in the past...time may be money.

I suppose the question is...if they are killing ducks then what is wrong with their preferred choice?

You have to remember patterning steel shot is different than lead. Steel patterns a full choke size tighter than lead.

Firemedic wrote:You have to remember patterning steel shot is different than lead. Steel patterns a full choke size tighter than lead.

You're right about that, so wouldn't using a full choke be counterproductive?

Pryor Creek Okie wrote:

Firemedic wrote:You have to remember patterning steel shot is different than lead. Steel patterns a full choke size tighter than lead.

You're right about that, so wouldn't using a full choke be counterproductive?

I am very limited in waterfowl knowledge, as I only did it a few years.

I always waited until I could see eyeballs before I pulled the trigger. It was either a clean miss or a head/neck shot.

I think most reasoning is due to the lack of energy steel carries, so a tighter choke will extend that energy a certain distance. You will still have a decent sized pattern/pellet dispersal with an FC at close range.

choke has no effect on energy of a load at all.

at close range (under 20 yards) your pattern is gonna be lucky to be 12inchs around. Close in shooting would be better with cyl or imp cyl......

birddog1968 wrote:choke has no effect on energy of a load at all.

So your telling me by using a full choke, which will shorten the shot string, you are not increasing the energy load by having a more simultaneous and direct impact?

Firemedic wrote:

birddog1968 wrote:choke has no effect on energy of a load at all.

So your telling me by using a full choke, which will shorten the shot string, you are not increasing the energy load by having a more simultaneous and direct impact?

The choke has nothing to do with the length of the shot string. The shot string is already determined before it reaches the choke.

Charlie

birddogger wrote:

Firemedic wrote:

birddog1968 wrote:choke has no effect on energy of a load at all.

So your telling me by using a full choke, which will shorten the shot string, you are not increasing the energy load by having a more simultaneous and direct impact?

The choke has nothing to do with the length of the shot string. The shot string is already determined before it reaches the choke.

Charlie

Agree! I am convinced that most people do not understand just what a choke does and what it doesn't do.

Ezzy

Agree! I am convinced that most people do not understand just what a choke does and what it doesn't do.

Ezzy

You are probably right. I am surprised by the number of people that I have hunted with over the years that had no clue.

Charlie

birddogger wrote:

Agree! I am convinced that most people do not understand just what a choke does and what it doesn't do.

Ezzy

You are probably right. I am surprised by the number of people that I have hunted with over the years that had no clue.

Charlie

Is that why I cannot ever hit a grouse on the wing when I use a turkey choke?

You guys are probably all right, I guess I really don't know that much about scattergun ballistics.

Firemedic wrote:

birddogger wrote:

Agree! I am convinced that most people do not understand just what a choke does and what it doesn't do.

Ezzy

You are probably right. I am surprised by the number of people that I have hunted with over the years that had no clue.

Charlie

Is that why I cannot ever hit a grouse on the wing when I use a turkey choke?

You guys are probably all right, I guess I really don't know that much about scattergun ballistics.

Firemedic, I was only correcting the shot string comment. The comment I made about a lot of people not knowing anything about chokes was just a general observation and was not directed toward you. NO offense intended toward you at all.

Charlie

Pryor Creek Okie wrote: but he was saying that most of the ducks they kill are shot at very close range in order to get them on camera.

A close shot for duck hunting is not the same as a close shot for upland hunting. No specific range has been mentioned. I would always be using a full choke personally. BTW, Steel shot does not have near the knock down punch as lead shot.

birddog1968 wrote:I listen very little to most of the people who do hunting shows, especially for waterfowl.

How are you going to question the "Duck Commander" ?

I found the article online, reread it, and answered my own question. It was Waterfowl & Retriever magazine.

Joe: Everybody thinks the Duckmen are phenomenal shotgunners. What makes you guys such good shots?

Phil: It's a number of things. You might as well be the one to write it down.

One: the days of hunting for the fun of it are long gone. Everything is filmed. Cameramen are set up in deer stands, holes in the ground, inner tubes. They trust us that we won't shoot them. They say there are times when ducks come in and they're thinking, "Oh, my goodness …" (they're going to be shot). We need the ducks where the cameramen can film them. We condition ourselves to know when (the ducks) are in the window of opportunity for the camera. And that window is just point-blank 20, 15, 10 yards — right there. The reason they look like they just powder is because they are just right in our face. But with a video camera, it looks like they're quite (farther). That's one.

Second, you've got six guys in a bunker, and we are loaded to the gills. The two best gunners are on each side.

Joe: Who's that?

Phil: That's Jase and me. Everybody else is just in the middle. You're basically just using them for ... well, you know. It's a critical call on who calls (the shot) because this thing is about timing. Think about it. Ducks will be past everybody and on their way outside the hole in (one second). Therefore, that first call is a critical one. Nobody does it perfect. The shooting starts before they even get there. I want the ducks to rise up. They're rising up and going out and away, but as they're going, everybody's got (a good shot). You're drawing more firepower at the optimum distance. The call is critical.

On one of the videos, 15 teal come in, and we killed them all. A guy said it was trick photography. I said, "Did it look like they were dying? It looked like that 'cause that's what was happening.”

Also, we tend to shoot tighter chokes than most people because we want to see them powdered, because we've got gun people and shell people that want to sell shotguns and shells.

Joe: What guns and shells do you shoot?

Phil: We shoot 3-inch (number) threes, Black Cloud shells, and Benelli shotguns.

Joe: You can shoot whatever shell you want, especially within Federal's brand. Do you think Black Clouds make that big of a difference, personally?

Phil: I really do.

We shoot full chokes, mostly. If we're going to shoot teal, we use improved cylinders. You don't need a full-choke gun unless you want to see them disintegrate …

Si (his brother Silas), he's got an open bore and his glasses are (real thick). So he's got just a spray gun, but it's good to have one man with a spray gun…

Joe: Any special sights? Anything to that?

Phil: Nothing to that.

As I mentioned earlier....marketing needs led the DC boys toward a particular choke decision....seemed obvious.

A full choke does not shorten the shot string.

Degree of constriction, or manner of choke design, can....affect...the shot string, tho the degree is the issue.
All the effects seen in patterning relative to any component from the barrel and beyond have long ago been noted.

Steel does not always pattern one choke constriction tighter than what the choke constriction would indicate...sometimes more, sometimes, oddly enough less tight.
Many Variables.
But, the Rule of Thumb is one tighter.
In patterning steel back in the late 80s, I came to prefer .025 for steel, whether birds were close or far.
Over time, proved with a bore gauge, no harm was done to the barrel from, in my case, BBBs and Ts.
The early recommendation of IC, etc. for steel was partially derived from companies not wanting to be held responsible for barrel damage that was constructed of less than the best steel alloy, concerns over twin-tubed guns and steel and the lack of early success from the steel load itself.
Today's steel loads, are far superior tho....still, nuttin' much beats lead.

Ron R wrote:

birddog1968 wrote:I listen very little to most of the people who do hunting shows, especially for waterfowl.

How are you going to question the "Duck Commander" ?

I don't question him, I ignore his existence completely

Steel shot and lead shot pass through choke tubes completely differently. With lead loads typically being far slower than lead loads along with smaller pellet size it is easier to predict how a load will respond to a changing of chokes in my opinion. Steel on the other hand does not always like constriction while passing through the choke tube. My duck reloads shoot the best through a LM carlsons ext. choke, while my goose loads really like a M carlsons ext. choke. I can change my reloads and might need a completely different choke while shooting steel, for me lead typically shoots as the choke is marked.