Gun Dog Forum

I'm looking at getting my first shotgun sometime soon and I was hoping the fine folks of GDF could point me in the right direction. I've never hunted before, but I have done a little shooting. I've shot both a pump and an O/U. At least for shooting skeet, I preferred the pump since it could hole more than 2 shells at at time, but I was wondering if there were other advantages/disadvantages to each type?

When I do start hunting it will probably be pheasant and quail. I've had a friend tell me that I should get a 12ga for phez, but I've also heard that's not necessary. Any thoughts on this? I don't want to go too expensive on my first gun. Looking to stay around $250-300 (definitely under $400). Any advice is appreciated.

20 ga will do fine for both pheasants and quail. I like my Rem 1100, but it won't cycle unless you use high brass shells. I like even better, my Beretta O/U. It "cycles" every time. No problems with weather or shells. You can likely find a good used O/U in your price range if you'll look around. I see no need for a third shell, if I've missed the bird twice, I'm not likely to get it on the third try anyway. I just like the breakopen guns, you don't have to "guess" if they're loaded.

For pheasant and quail you can't go wrong with a 12ga. I know some people that like the smaller 20ga because its lighter than a 12ga. In California for bird hunting your not allowed more than 2+1 shells in your gun. If you have a O/U its not issue, with a pump or semi-auto you'll need to block the magazine to the legal size.

I actually have 2 different guns for what I do. I carry a light O/U 12ga (Stoegar 3000) for Upland and Trap shooting. Then I have my Beretta A391 Extrema 2 (12ga) for ducks and waterfowl. The Extrema will take longer shells and its a little safer when in a duck blind because you keep the barrel pointing outside of the blind when reloaded. The Extrema is definetly more expensive but its also more versitile.

From the money side of things if you don't reload, 12ga is the cheapest. You should be able to find a Stoegar in your price range, its not top of the line but after breaking it in, it will do the job. It took me 100 shells to break my O/U in.

Here's my 2 cents:
Tens of thousands, quite possibly hundreds of thousands, of folks have chosen a pump gun as their first shotgun. Many continue to use them exclusively. They are very simple to operate, generally not finicky as to what goes in them, and operate under an amazing range of conditions. They are not very expensive and it's really pretty difficult to screw one up significantly while in the field. I have seen a guy drop one in a salt bay, fish it out and run fresh water through it, then continue to hunt all day. Try that with an auto loader..

Remington 870 Wingmaster (NOT Express), and Winchester Model 12 are 2 common, iconic pumps. There are other great pumps too. Note: you do not need a 3" or 3.5" chamber to kill ducks, quail, pheasant, etc. Literally millions of birds have ended up as dinner by being at the receiving end of a 2.75" load in any chambering. In my opinion pump gun engineering matured decades ago. Subsequent alterations in design may have been driven more by marketing than necessity.
I love the Wingmaster and have a bunch of them in 20, 12, and 16. I like the earliest ones from the early 50s as they have a plain (non vent rib) barrel, and a smaller "corn cob" fore. Less weight allows the gun to swing much more easily, in my opinion, and is more comfortable to carry in the field. You can find them on many of the auction sites and be well within your budget. There is nothing 'flashy' or sexy about an old Wingmaster. It's a pretty blue collar gun. Birds, however, don't make as much of a distinction between these and fancier guns as do the guys who layed down the cash for the nicer gun. Anyway, it's a little like guitars.. you can't just have one but it's good to start with one that is basic and well made and can do most everything well. From there you can get your next... and you will.
If you prefer more craftsmanship and less of a production gun consider the Remington Model 31, arguably one of the greatest pump guns ever made. These too can be found within your budget.

I confess to knowing next to nothing about modern auto loaders but I do very much like the old Browning A-5 and Remington Model 11 guns. Again, iconic (John Browning) design and decades of proven results. Hard to argue with that.

You just reminded of probably the more important thing. Look for a shotgun that takes choke tubes. They also make shotguns that take choke barrels but they're much more expensive to gather a set for. You'll want the different chokes for varying your shot pattern.

If you plan on doing much pheasant hunting get a 12 gauge, make sure it has a 3" chamber (not because its absolutely necessary) it doesn't cost anymore and it will have better resale value. It is easier to find 12 gauge than 20 gauge shells and they generally cost less. The Remington 870 wingmaster is a fantastic gun, however lots of the earlier models don't have adjustable chokes, the 12 gauge typically came with a full choke that wasn't designed for shooting steel shot. While pheasant hunting I have a need for the 3rd, 4th, and 5th shell often, not because your shooting 5 shells at the same bird, but there are multiple flushes and blocking situations were the extra shells are needed. I am giving advise as a pheasant hunter not as quail hunter.

If you are looking for an all around field gun. You can't beat a Remington 870 pump 12 ga. with a set of ic, mod and full choke tubes. The gun is almost indestructable, will operate under the worst conditions and is very reasonably priced. I've had one for 35 years and had no real problems with it. Ditto the no real need for 3 in or 31/2 in shells. I've kill lots of ducks and geese with my 2 3/4 in shells. What it does do with the shorter shells is make you a hunter and not just a shooter.

I'd go with the Remington 870 express 12ga. There is a reason it's been one of the most popular shotguns for so long.
I've had one for years and have never been disappointed.
Next to that, I like the Mossberg 500 20ga. Simple and reliable at a low cost.

I wouldn't worry about looking for a new gun with the 3 to 3.5 inch shell capability, I don't think you would be able to find one that didn't come that way anymore.

longarm wrote:
Remington 870 Wingmaster (NOT Express), and Winchester Model 12 are 2 common, iconic pumps..

Just curious why you say not to go with the Express. Looking at some of the local stores, they seem to have better deals on these.

Raider,
These gentlemen have given you some good advise on acquiring an introductory shotgun. I have to agree 100% with the gentlemen who advised you about the Win M12
shotgun, its a very high quality weapon for the money you will expend, which is usually a little more than $400.00. However save your money and invest in the quality proven M12 if you want a pump gun. If you can pick up a 16 guage M12 you have your self a real big time hunting weapon, at minimal cost, that will last many life times, and you can hunt Birds, Ducks, Bunnies or anything else your heart desires with the 16 guage M12. The other item this gun has that some others do not, is a thumb safety, I recommend this very highly for the 1st time shotgun owners/hunter. The M12 is light to carry in the field or forest and is a proven reliable quality weapon for more than a reasonable cost.

RGD/Dave

Raider,
The Wingmaster, first produced in 1950, was intended from its inception to be a production gun to dominate the market as THE affordable American field shotgun. Stamped parts, a relatively simple stock, no hand fitting, etc made manufacturing fast and less expensive. Like I said, not very sexy. However it has become the worlds most popular shotgun: Remington has made well over a million of them.
The Express models are diminished Wingmasters, in my opinion. Softer wood stock, a less durable finish, etc. I have heard some say they are happy with their Express guns.. I have also heard guys say they have some real issues.

Visit 3 or 4 gunshops in your area and handle a number of the guns mentioned above. Definitely handle as many of the older guns as you can. Dave is right on re: the Win M12, it's a classic and a real beauty and has a phenomenally loyal following with good reason. Take a look at an old Ithaca M37 while you're at it. Start this same thread on a few other gun forums and see if the same results pop up.

Re: choke tubes. A lot of the older guns came with fixed choke barrels. Most of these were FULL choke, though MOD choke was also somewhat common. If you had to pick just one choke to hunt everything with MOD would probably be it. Steel, bird, buck, and even slugs are generally fine in a MOD barrel. If you find an old gun that you like and it has a fixed FULL barrel you have options. You can have the choke constriction opened up to MOD (very inexpensive, around here about $25), or you can usually have the barrel threaded to accept the choke tubes you desire. This latter operation is more expensive and price varies considerably. I had one done recently, the threading and 2 choke tubes totaled around $100, which was a pretty good deal. In addition on many of the auction sites you can find just barrels for your gun of choice in the choke constriction you desire.

You know.. this is a fun thread as there is just no way we can exhaust the subject. My responses here have been limited to the reliable workhorse pump guns, and even then just a hint of what's out there. And I'm certainly no authority. You have time to do your homework though (Spring turkey doesn't open here until April 15) and that is part of the fun.

And when you end up with a closet full of Parkers, Purdeys, and L.C. Smiths please post a pic!

Longarm,
I posted something you are going to want to see, on the thread you just started!
RGD/Dave

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:... If you can pick up a 16 guage M12 you have your self a real big time hunting weapon, at minimal cost, that will last many life times, and you can hunt Birds, Ducks, Bunnies or anything else your heart desires with the 16 guage M12. The other item this gun has that some others do not, is a thumb safety...RGD/Dave

I did not realize that a 16 gauge M12 Winchester had a thumb safety...one learns something new every day.


Buy any good used pump or semi-auto.
You'll love them all at a young age.
As you get older you will realize that there is always greener grass...someplace.
Enjoy the scattergun.

Lighter than the Remington 870. Comes with Choke tubes. Easy disassembly for cleaning. Around $250.

Recommend IC or Modified choke tube... if shooting 30 yards or under.

Whatever your choice... I'de recommend buying a gun that has a barrel with screw in choke tubes.

I love SxS shotguns myself. Up here in Vermont their tradition. A perfectly good stoeger uplander in either 12 or 20 or eben the kit with both barrels is qreat. I love the veratility of having two different chokes. I'll even carry a couple different ones in my pocket to match the environment

Ok, here's another rookie question:

I think I understand what a choke does, but I'm not entirely sure. Does it make the spread of the shot tighter? What are situations when you would use a choke and when would you not?

distance of shot and spread of shot.
I generally use a standard choke as I have learned how to hit what I am shooting at. Others modify their gun by using different sizes, as they haven't learned how to hit a target otherwise.
You could go with a SxS but get ready to spend.

I'd suggest going to a few shops and handling as many shotguns as you can. If it doesnt shoulder, fit, or swing nice for you move on.

Your best bet for saving on $$ is a pump, used or new. Nova, 870 express, bps, 1300, ect..

I think I understand what a choke does, but I'm not entirely sure. Does it make the spread of the shot tighter? What are situations when you would use a choke and when would you not?

Every shotgun barrel is choked. There are two types of choked barrels: Older gun have a fixed choke and CANNOT be changed. For example, my brother in law has an older Remington pump model 870 that has a fixed FULL choke barrel. Newer shotguns are now made with barrels that have screw in chokes that are adjustable to the conditions in which you are shooting.

go to this link and read about chokes: http://www.shotgunlife.com/Shotguns/chokes.html

There are three basic types of chokes: IC- best pattern of lead shot @ 25 to 30 yards, Mod.- best pattern of lead shot @ 30 to 40 yards, and Full- @ 40+. SO... if your shooting close (over a pointing dog on a bird that is holding) use IC. If you are hunting late season pheasants that flush at longer distance... use FULL. Best of both worlds... use Mod. I use Mod.

another consideration is what length of shell the gun chamber can take. Older shotguns can only take 2 3/4", Newer guns- 2 3/4 and 3", Newest guns 3 1/2". Longer shells = more powder and shot. Prefer at least a 3" chamber.

Steel Shot shells are another issue. Many older shotguns CANNOT safely shoot steel shot. If you are going to hunt public lands or waterfowl, make sure you get a shotgun that can shoot steel.


The most popular pump 12 gauge is an 870 Remington/Express. The Winchester 1300 is in the same class. Both guns are excellent and cost effective. Those are the only two guns I would buy in that price range.


Finally, once you buy your pump you can read some articles on how to "pattern" your shotgun. That will provide more information on which choke tube to use.

A nice stoeger uplander SxS is one $325. I think only $500 for both 12 and 20 barrels and one reciever. well worth the money. they take regular win,moss, chokes. IMO I hate pumps. the slides usually rattle and if you are not very practiced with them it is sooooo easy to short stroke it and get a stove pipe.

Gentlemen,
One of my close friends is an old Marine Sniper Instructor, his favorite Grouse gun is a 20 guage Stoeger. Harold probably forgot more about good rifles and shotguns than most people will ever know. This past Grouse season I saw him down a Grouse at 50 plus yards with that 20 guage Stoeger and #6 shot from the 2nd BBL, as the bird flew away, over a very thick stand of young Beach trees. If a Stoeger Shotgun is good enough for him, you might consider the purchase.
RGD/Dave

A walking advertisement for Stoeger Shotguns, the old Marine Sniper Instructor shoots more than a rifle very very well.
The big Grouse folded with one shot at 50 Plus, just thru the top of the thick habitat you see behind him.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is fit. If you shotgun doesn't fit you it is miserable to try to hit anything with it. You should try to handle as many different guns as you can and find what is comfortable to you. I see that you are in TX and have an academy sports near by. They are importing an over under that comes in right at the $400 mark.

http://www.academy.com/index.php?page=c ... OU+SHOTGUN

I have one headed north in the next few weeks.

Good tip on the affordable O/U at Academy. There's an Academy right by my house - I'll go check that out.

I had also wondered about the Stoeger SxS guns. I've found some new ones around here for $369. That makes it awfully tempting, but at the same time makes me a little suspicious as to why they are so cheap. An endorsement from a Marine sniper certainly helps though.

As far as fit goes, I've done some reading about how a gun should fit, but with my limited shooting experience it's just hard for me to tell when a gun fits well and when it doesn't.

I believe I read once that a know body had won a National trap or skeet event with a SxS in the last 50 years. If I'm wrong on this please call me on it. I've shot very few of them but when I did they felt a little awkward, probably because I didn't grow up on them.

Raider I live about 5 hours north of you in Texhoma right on the Oklahoma/Texas line. Half the town is in Ok. and the other half is in Tx. I had to go to Amarillo to buy guns till last week when Wal Mart started selling guns here again. I have 2 Yildiz, one in 12 and one in 20 gauge, and they are well built, light, have beautiful wood and are well worth the money. They are inexpensive not cheap, there is a difference. You will be surprised at the quality of the wood and how exacting the wood to metal fit is as well as the quality and durability of the blueing. They are really well made for the price and come with 5 choke tubes and a tube wrench. I have been extremly happy with mine and shoot wild pheasant and quail here in the Oklahoma panhandle.

1. You cant load more than 2 rounds when shooting skeet- it is unsafe and will get you kicked out of most shooting facilities if you insist on doing that

2. There are lots of good guns- A used Remington 1100 is still hard to beat

3. A 20 gauge or a 12 doesnt matter for upland game- it is more the size of shot and range- a 20 will do it for you

Regards from Iowa

Gene

Any word on the purchase yet?

I prefer the sxs for cleaning when my daughter's have dates coming over. Sends the right message.

After shopping around town I've narrowed it down to a few options:

1. A used SxS Zabala 12ga (for $400). Has some nice metal work - nice looking gun, IMO.

2. A used O/U Tristar 12ga (for $400). This one looks newer that the Zabala, and also looks pretty nice.

3. A new Stoeger SxS (for $369). I haven't heard anything bad about these guns, but I guess I just wonder a little bit about their durability, being so cheap.

I've also seen some Remington 870s and 1100s for reasonable prices, but I think I want to go with either a SxS or an O/U. I've handled all of these guns in the stores, but I still can't get a great idea of what the best 'fit' is.

Both of the used ones are from a reputable gun store here in Lubbock and look very clean and well taken care of. Anybody know anything about those first two brands?

Heads up, i just saw a CZ woodcock O/U in 20ga at Gander Mountain in LBK two weekends ago. It was a little more than your stated price range (it was 1000) but if i were you i'd go in and take a look at it. Maybe talk to a sales person, they might be able to work with you on the price or have lay away.

If i hadnt just bought a CZ bobwhite i just might have came back to abilene with it.

I would also suggest a Yildiz from academy. I put a few hundred shells through a couple and they are nice for field guns, and its hard to beat $399 for a new O/U...and some have really nice walnut.

I can't remember who said it earlier, but if you aren't used to a sxs the do feel a bit strange.
I would, my choice, go with the OU. The feel is the same as a pump.

Keep us updated!!

I must be a bumpkin because I'm sitting here thinking about my favorite go to gun and nobody has even mentioned it! What about the good 'ol mossberg 500? I've dropped them in the mud, abused them and it just keeps on firing. love the thumb saftey too!

jwtrking wrote:I must be a bumpkin because I'm sitting here thinking about my favorite go to gun and nobody has even mentioned it! What about the good 'ol mossberg 500? I've dropped them in the mud, abused them and it just keeps on firing. love the thumb saftey too!

Great gun. Just wish they would keep the forearm from rattling so much. Was a real pain hunting deer.

Ezzy

ezzy333 wrote:

jwtrking wrote:I must be a bumpkin because I'm sitting here thinking about my favorite go to gun and nobody has even mentioned it! What about the good 'ol mossberg 500? I've dropped them in the mud, abused them and it just keeps on firing. love the thumb saftey too!

Great gun. Just wish they would keep the forearm from rattling so much. Was a real pain hunting deer.

Ezzy

They are a great gun That was the first gun my dad bought for me my hand me down Iver Johnson sxs with 30 inch barrels both choked full was falling apart so dad went to wal-mart and bought me a brand spanking new Mossberg 500 combo with the slug and field barrel I was 12 i think needless to say it fit me much better and there were a lot more birds on the table that season. but as Ezzy said the freaking forearm rattles like crazy but you just have to hold it a little tighter and your good to go I still shoot mine at ducks and geese and it will be my sons second gun after he has out grown the Sears & Roebuck .410 that has been the starter gun for all then men in my family going back to my great granddad.

I would not go with an "old" 1100, 870, 1300, etc. Simply because of weight. Im no little guy but I carry a Browning semi-auto, I believe it weighs about just over 7lbs unloaded. My buddy used to carry and old 1100 he could not believe how much lighter my Browning was. Not saying Browning is the best, all gunmakers have started making guns lighter and lighter every year.

I would tell you to get a niced used 20 ga pump: nova, stoeger 2000, 870, 500, also the Maverick 88 (which is a 500 with a little different look) but the Mossberg sa20 looks mighty appealing to me. You should be able to find any of these for under $400.

If you do end up getting a fixed choke gun, I would tell you to get a full or modified choke 20 ga, or a modified or IC in 12 ga....imo

I have a supernova in 12ga/28" that is a little heavy to carry around in the woods but makes a great waterfowl gun. I bought my 12y/o daughter a 500 combo in 20ga all blinged out in camo for less than $400. I love the slug barrel on that piece. comes with adjustable iron sights and the receiver is predrilled for a rail. I put a red dot on it. I want on for myself!!

The Mossberg 500 is a great dual purpose gun. We never go duck hunting without one, simple attach your rope to the trigger guard and it makes a fine anchor and it seconds as an emergency paddle. We have also welded a hook on the end of the barrel for retrieving decoys, and nailed a bottle opener to the stock for obvious reasons. With a dremal tool you are able to open the ejection port up enough to use the action to break open walnuts. You can also tack weld the action closed so your children can have a pretend gun or just give them away as gag gifts. I know a few poachers who use them, for the simple reason that they are not disappointed when their guns get confiscated. Wonderful tool that Mossberg 500 or as most refer to it, the Head Hanger.

Not necessarily a Mossberg fan or even a pump gun fan but I found this interesting.

http://www.second-amendment.org/guns-an ... vs500.html

apparently nikegundog has deep pockets or an aversion to functional, inexpensive shotguns. since he has no suggestions for the gentelman on what to purchase we can only assume that he might be suffering from a touch of jealosy in his inability to down doubles while reloading a pump gun vs. just squeezing the trigger on his $1200 semi.

apparently nikegundog has deep pockets or an aversion to functional, inexpensive shotguns. since he has no suggestions for the gentelman on what to purchase we can only assume that he might be suffering from a touch of jealosy in his inability to down doubles while reloading a pump gun vs. just squeezing the trigger on his $1200 semi.

You got me, I have deep pockets and an aversion to functional, inexpensive shotguns that's why I recommended the Rem 870. Quite frankly my response was so filled with sarcasm I couldn't believe anyone would take it seriously. On more serious note I did go out and spend $400 dollars on a used remington 1100 single-shot, semi auto shotgun, just don't get me going on that.

naa. just having fun. but I have used my 500 as a paddle before!!

Benelli M1 By far the best gun i have owned, and you can find them used for right around 400. It is light, and durable which makes it an awesome field gun. I used to shoot a rem 870, then one day i saw the m1 and just decided to get it, Very happy with my purchase. As long as you clean the gun you will never have problems. I went 8 seasons before i changed the spring, and we hunt in salt water all year.

Love my Mossberg 20 gauge pump. Its simple to take apart and clean and put back together. It's easy to operate, accurate and very reliable. I've never had it malfunction or jam. I have a couple of guy friends with fancy expensive guns that are constantly malfunctioning. You can't argue with what works and keeps on working!

Just shot a Winchester 1300 tonight at some clays. Its is the first time I have shot the 1300 and the first time shooting clays for about 9 years or so. It took me about 1/4 or maybe a 1/2 box of shells to figure her out but when I did I fell in love with the gun! Had to hold her a bit low but I would say for the price and the feel of the gun its a winner.

If you do end up getting a fixed choke gun, I would tell you to get a full or modified choke 20 ga, or a modified or IC in 12 ga....imo

Personally, I wouldn't use a full choke for anything except for maybe pass shooting ducks or geese. Also, the guage would have nothing to do with my choice of chokes. As an example, a 12 ga with a mod. choke will shoot no harder or farther than a 20 ga. with the same choke. They will also pattern pretty much the same with the same choke, there just won't be as many pellets with the smaller guage. I like to shoot more open chokes with today's ammunition and IMO, a full choke is pretty much useless now days for most types of hunting.

Charlie

birddogger wrote:

If you do end up getting a fixed choke gun, I would tell you to get a full or modified choke 20 ga, or a modified or IC in 12 ga....imo

Personally, I wouldn't use a full choke for anything except for maybe pass shooting ducks or geese. Also, the guage would have nothing to do with my choice of chokes. As an example, a 12 ga with a mod. choke will shoot no harder or farther than a 20 ga. with the same choke. They will also pattern pretty much the same with the same choke, there just won't be as many pellets with the smaller guage. I like to shoot more open chokes with today's ammunition and IMO, a full choke is pretty much useless now days for most types of hunting.

Charlie

Well said.

A modified choke will do most guys just fine in most situations...

If you do end up getting a fixed choke gun, I would tell you to get a full or modified choke 20 ga, or a modified or IC in 12 ga....imo


Personally, I wouldn't use a full choke for anything except for maybe pass shooting ducks or geese. Also, the gauge would have nothing to do with my choice of chokes. As an example, a 12 ga with a mod. choke will shoot no harder or farther than a 20 ga. with the same choke. They will also pattern pretty much the same with the same choke, there just won't be as many pellets with the smaller gauge. I like to shoot more open chokes with today's ammunition and IMO, a full choke is pretty much useless now days for most types of hunting.

I screw in a FC (steel) for most all my goose hunting, pass shooting ducks or decoying divers, blocking on pheasants and late season pheasants with flushing dogs (windy conditions),coyotes,fox. I don't actually know all the details of why, but I believe most of the fixed choke guns had Full for 12 gauge and Mod. for 20 gauge. If I had to choose between full or mod in a fixed choke gun it would be a toss up.

nikegundog wrote:

If you do end up getting a fixed choke gun, I would tell you to get a full or modified choke 20 ga, or a modified or IC in 12 ga....imo


Personally, I wouldn't use a full choke for anything except for maybe pass shooting ducks or geese. Also, the guage would have nothing to do with my choice of chokes. As an example, a 12 ga with a mod. choke will shoot no harder or farther than a 20 ga. with the same choke. They will also pattern pretty much the same with the same choke, there just won't be as many pellets with the smaller guage. I like to shoot more open chokes with today's ammunition and IMO, a full choke is pretty much useless now days for most types of hunting.

I screw in a FC (steel) for most all my goose hunting, pass shooting ducks or decoying divers, blocking on pheasants and late season pheasants with flushing dogs. I don't actaully know all the details of why, but I believe most of the fixed choke guns had Full for 12 gauge and Mod. for 20 gauge.

I didn't think you were supposed to shoot steel through a full choke. You may be right about the fixed choke guns but I still don't see the logic behind it. Another thing is that modern shells shoot a tighter pattern than they did years ago anyway, pretty much eliminating the need for a full choke [for me anyway]. For instance, I believe an IC patterns more like a modified with shells of years ago and modified more like full. There are still some exceptions, where a FC might be an advantage though. I also thought the rule of thumb with steel shot was to shoot one choke more open than you would with lead. In other words if you were shooting a mod. with lead, you would go to IC. whith steel. I don't have much experience with steel though so I may be wrong.

Charlie

Charlie, the rule of thumb I was always told on steel was to go down 2 shot sizes (if you shot 4's you would use 2's etc), the FC I use is called Full Steel they also sell a Full Lead. On pheasants I most always shoot lead shot. Anyway I haven't patterned my old guns for many years, so I might have to get out and do some checking.

Ya, you are correct on the steel vs. lead on the shot size. That is probably what I was thinking of and may be wrong on the amount of choke needed relative to steel shot. Thanks for reminding me of that.

Charlie