Gun Dog Forum

Hey guys it's been awhile and I need some good advice.

I just put my deposit down on a Boykin pup and I will be picking her up when this deployment is over. I won't actually be hunting until the fall of 2013 as I return after the 2012 season.

Getting the Boykin from Brandywine Creek Boykins and they will do some initially training with the Pup (about 4-6 months) worth until my return.

I am familiar with pistols and rifles and a pretty "bleep" good shot with both but won't lie, I don't have too much experience with a shotgun.

So that leads me to this question.....12 or 20?, semi auto or pump?, over under vice side by side?, etc. I know gun owners are particular and opinionated so if you recommend one can you elaborate so I understand why you prefer it?

Some info on me to help you guys give me better educated advice:

1. I am short at only 5'6" and longer barrels can kick my "bleep" (at least when in combat scenario shooting). Hence I prefer the M4 over the M16 since I can shorten up the stock and maneuver it better.

2. Will be hunting upland game (pheasant, quail, grouse).

3. Trying to keep the price between $1500 - $4000 but of course the cheaper the better. Within reason of course willing to spend the extra cash if it is worth it.

4. Have found pump actions to be hard for me to work vice semi-auto due to short arms but this may be a mental thing

5. I haven't hunted in 15 years but am familiar with weapons and the outdoors (no "bleep" right ha ha)

Ok guys any help is appreciated.

JPTS

I am 5'8", so I understand. Here is what works for me. Most 20 gauges come with a shorter length of pull. I have a Benelli 20 gauge auto. The length of pull is 14 1/4 inches. That works pretty well for me. I also hunt with a Ithaca 100 20 gauge side by side. The length of pull is also 14 1/4". I bought a TriStar 28 gauge over and under a couple of years ago. I had the stock cut, making the length of pull 14 1/8". I find myself carrying it more and more. It only weighs 5 pounds. Most 12 gauges come in with a length of pull, over 14 1/2 inches. Some right at 15".Since you have a lot of expierence with an auto, you may want to look into a 20 gauge auto. If I had to pick just one gun to do it all, I would keep it. Just my opinion, buy a 20 gauge Benelli M2 with a 24" or 26" barrel. They weigh in at 5.7 pounds, so you can pack them all day and they will not wear you out. Also, the recoil is the best on the market. You can shoot a 3" shell loaded with 1 1/4 oz of shot with light recoil. Have fun! A new puppy and a new gun all at one time. Lucky!

Thats for taking care of business over there, and I hope you and the guys and gals all get back soon.

I do a fair amount of bird hunting but over pointing dogs, so my shots may be at a little closer range on average than with a flushing dog. But I really like a 20ga. It will handle pheasants easily, but is lighter during a long day in the field.

I have had pumps, autos and an O/U.prefer the auto and the o/u by far over the pump.
Some of the advantages of the auto and pump is that you can have more than 2 shots. But I have found that there are not that many times where I need or can take more than two good shots. There are a few times but not as many as you would think.

An O/U or a SxS you have the advantage of having two chokes and two different shell if you want. There is also the additional safety with a break open gun, you can tell at a distance that the gun can not be fired.

But it all boiles down to what you like and shoot best.

Thanks guys great advice so far and it is giving me places to start to research, etc. I appreciate the responses and insight.

12 gauge
Semi-auto...gas or inertia.
Beretta or Benelli or Browning...pick a B
They pretty much all have those silly choke tubes now so chokes are not an issue.
You may prefer a plastic stock dependent upon what the scattergun will see....they all have that option....upland, go wood.
7# or so.
26 " barrel...but length in a scattergun has nothing to do with one's height. It can effect balance which is why you should shoulder a bunch and see what model you like best, for that is what you will shoot the best. Some models are more bulky and hand size will mean much more than your height.
Price will be likely to fall between $1K & $2K for a new model.

The 12 gives you more options than a 20....1 ounce loads and up, certainly 1 1/8 ounce and up.
12 gauge cartouches are often more available in a wider range of shot and load.... and can be cheaper.
12 offers way more options and practacality in non-tox.
No difference in factory stock length per gauge....other than a youth stock.
Avoid the 3 1/2" 12 like an Oprah show.
Have fun and be patient with the pup.

I'll let others pass along their wisdom regarding the weapon of choice.

FWIW - For others new to shotguns & flushing dogs. Just in case you don't know this already: Shotgunners do not aim their weapon like a rifle or pistol. Read a bit about proper shotgunning technique. Be certain you know which is your dominant eye and shoot the shotgun off that shoulder. Follow the target with both eyes open. Practice trap, sheet & especially sporting clays. It takes a bit to learn how much to lead moving targets and at certain flight angles you may be firing when the target is no longer visible because it's covered by the swinging barrel. Safety first. Pattern your gun & remember your dog's life is in your hands. Do not shoot unless you know exactly where your dog is. Depending upon your choice of choke the pellet pattern can open up pretty fast. Some dogs have been known to jump in the air at the bird. No low shots.

Congrats on the new pup! Not sure if you are going to join any clubs or play any games with your new pup. May not be applicable in the flusher/retriever world but many clubs and events require break open guns for pointing dog games. Just a thought.

Browning parts made in the US, nough said.


B-80's are real nice affordable used guns, worth looking into. Love my 12 and 20 for upland.

You will read some nonsense about these guns not feeding and whatnot, those are mostly guns that have set or never been cleaned and are gummed up.
I bought another one few months ago and it wouldn't feed, bath in a sonic tank and it cycles whatever i put thru it. Great reliable simple design.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =273623614

Ok guys thanks for all the great advice. I have read what everyone here has said and did some online research.

I have decided on a 20 gauge and I have shifted from a semi auto to an over/under.

Now some advice on what 20 gauge o/umyou guys recommend?

I am only 5'8" myself and understandl exactly where you're coming from. I have a hard time finding guns that fit well. A quality O/U in 20 gauge will serve you well butif you find a 12 that fits nice you can shoot 1 oz loads and not be over gunned. Checkout this new offering by Franchi, I know I will be looking at it myself.

http://www.franchiusa.com/franchi-instinct-sl-shotgun/

That is a nice looking gun. Any other suggestions? What are the benefits of the two lengths?

When I hunted over a Pointer I often used my 28 gauge on pheasant. Since I switched to to hunting over a flusher for pheasant I have quit carrying sub gauge guns and returned to using a twelve. The birds are getting up about 10 to twenty yards farther out with the flushing dog. Add some wind and by the time I get on them they are pushing the outside of my range, and with pheasant you need a solid hit because they can be difficult to retrieve under the best of conditions when wounded. For me the twelve gives me a few more pellets in the pattern.

Im 5-8 allso , I have been shoting ruger red lable the last 10-12 years. I have all 3 ga. but only use the 28 ga., because of the lighter weight .I cant tell any difference in my hit miss with the 28 vs. 20.

If I were getting a new over/under for field use I would go "ugly" and get a Baikal for around $400-$500. In the semi-category it makes sense to spend a bit more and get the Beretta 3901 Standard for around $700 or a Benelli Monte for a few hundred more.

In the used category, a Berreta O/U Black/White Onyx, Citori or Ruger Red Lable make sense. The used gun market is very soft so perhaps a very good deal is out there.

Joe,
I congratulate you on the purchase of a fine Boykin gun dog, and from a quality breeder. Now as to a 20 Gauge O/U at a reasonable price, for upland hunting. I recommend you look around for a Churchill Italian made O/U. You can usually pick these quality older O/U 20 Gauge Churchill guns for under $900.00, they are older 60's and 70's type weapons, made with nice Chrome lined BBls and decent Italian type engraving, and nice Walnet wood. SST and Churchill type thumb safe, weighing 6.0 lbs. Very nice guns for the money expended, I gifted one of these weapons to a friend as a Christmas present and found a big gap in my gun safe, my clients used the gun quite a bit, so I replaced it just a few months ago myself.
RGD/Dave

The Churchill 20 Guage O/U


Close up of the light Italian Engraving, on the Churchill

Ok guys, so I have been doing a ton of research and looking at guns. I really did use this boards advice.

I have determined to save some money and skip over the big name brands that start with a B and go with a CZ. I also decided to go with an over/under as I like the classic look of them.

I have narrowed it down to three choices in order of preference:


1). CZ 2009 limited edition
2) CZ 2011 limited edition
3). CZ wing shooter

All in 20 gauge........

So I need to locate a used one of one of those first two as they are both discontinued.

Anyone know where I can locate one and what is your opinions?

Thanks for your service to our country...Most of us appreciate it more than you know...
I'm a Red Label fan, mainly because of where it is made, in addition to feeling good as I shoot, and being able to be around other people with them knowing by sight that I do not have a round chambered when my gun is broken. The people that I hunt with appreciate that about each other...I can also set my gun on the ground quickly, knowing that my dog will not cause it to go off when it is broken, but you're already sold on an o/u. I'm happy for you!

SetterNut wrote:Thats for taking care of business over there, and I hope you and the guys and gals all get back soon.

Ditto! I appreciate everything you people do, proud to be an American. Congrats on the pup. I don't have much input on the shotgun other than I'm saving up to buy a Benelli Montefeltro or Ultra Light 20 ga.

CZ's are ok I have a 20g Redhead and it is an ok gun. I paid about $700 for it new. The Wingshooter you mentioned has a list of $999. That is quite a chunk of change for a Turkish gun. A Baikal is half that price and has better metal work. I hate recommending a Russian gun but they are quite a value even if the receiver is very tight at first.

I really wouldn't spend more than say $500 on a CZ.

You can do better if your budget is around $1,000. A used Beretta White Onyx is about that price and they are not hard to find. Beretta Silver Snipe is also a really nice piece, has a nice retro look. The Ruger Red Label is about the same price and probably even easier to find. Ruger discontinued the Red Label so maybe there is a good deal out there.

Many used guns hardly have a round through them.

You might be able to find a new SKB somewhere for $1,000. Used they are very common and cheap.

I'd go with a used B gun over a CZ if you can afford it. If you are anywhere near $1000, you are going to be in that market. 20 guage O/U's are really nice handling guns, the most distinct difference between Browning and Beretta are the cast and legnth of pull. Newer Beretta's tend to be longer, have more cast than the Browning.

There's no guarantee of trigger consistancy in any make of gun but you have a far better chance of finding a B-gun with good triggers than a CZ. To me, this is the biggest issue with lower price doubles that are all the rage now. The second biggest issue is point of impact (which is true with any low priced scattergun).

I have an Ithaca SKB 20 gauge S/S in your price range (1000). Excellent condition, chambered SKT/SKT. Nice little bird gun, 26" barrel. If interested send me a PM and I will get you the contact info to the gun shop (consignment gun). I have pics of this gun somewhere in this forum I think but it probably been a few years. I'll see if I can find them...

Sorry, I think the pics are gone, had them linked off of Photobucket and must have deleted them out of there. I found the thread but the links don't work. Well, it's a very nice gun regardless.

Thanks for serving and keep safe over there.

As others have said previously- alot depends on what you prefer to shoot and your budget allows great options. I would recommend several lower priced guns including an auto, side by side, and over and under if you can't decide or can not get the opportunity to test at a range. Ideally-go to a shooting range/club and try some guns ov varying types to see what you like.

Have to 2nd or 3rd? not sure how many others already recommended, but Ruger Red Label hands down. Find one in like new on gunbroker for close to $1k in 12 20 or 28 gauge. They feel great to shoulder, they are made in the USA and they shoot straight. Frames built for each gauge and just an awesome feeling field gun. Love Ruger and hoping they bring the shotguns back soon!

I wouldn't get a Ruger in 12 gauge unless you need a gun to double as a boat oar. The 20 is OK.

I'd look at the SKB first...some of the Italian made Charles Daly O/U were very good guns for the money.

JKP wrote:I wouldn't get a Ruger in 12 gauge unless you need a gun to double as a boat oar. The 20 is OK.
.

thats a pretty strong statement, too bad your dead wrong. everyone knows a 12gauge RRL makes a far superior boat anchor, than an oar.

JKP wrote:I wouldn't get a Ruger in 12 gauge unless you need a gun to double as a boat oar. The 20 is OK.

I'd look at the SKB first...some of the Italian made Charles Daly O/U were very good guns for the money.

I bought a SKB 505 from a friend and got about 9 boxes of shell through it before it became a single shot, My RRL has given me of 20 years of solid service without an issue, my advice is to leave the SKB in whatever country they are importing that crap from. Don't know where all the Charles Daly's are coming from, but a friend purchase one of the pumps about 5 years ago and it was defective straight from the factory, you would think a firearm company would have some kind of quality control system in place that wouldn't allow a gun with an obvious defect to leave the factory.

Should look at a Browning B-80 Upland, or Gold Hunter Upland...

Whatever gun you decide to go with make sure you invest in getting it fitted to you and having a good pad put on it. Also get plenty of practice in at the sporting clays range until you feel comfortable with it.

Good luck

I would buy a Franchi Instinct SL before a CZ. But for your $budget you could easily find a used SKB, Miroku or Citori which are all great guns.