It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

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JonBailey
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It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by JonBailey » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:23 am

... to shame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEeuFHFb1fU

I remember when dove hunters used to dress, act and speak like gentlemen.
And firing guns right over populated areas with men working in tractors?
Come now! You've been out in that SoCal desert sun too long, boys!

PS- Is that a flammable fuel tank you're shooting in front of?
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by fishvik » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:09 am

I'm not sure what your major beef with these guys is. These guys were probably encouraged to hunt those invasive Eurasian ringneck doves by the dairy owner because they were fouling feed. They may have fired over vehicles, it's hard to tell if the vehicles were in range from the camera angles. They never once fired at an angle that put vehicles, buildings, humans or livestock in the line of fire. They always kept that tank of fuel at a safe distance behind them. They were wearing camo, pretty standard for dove hunters. They had a trained dog. They picked up their empties when they were done. The dancing and fist bumps were a little over the top but nothing extraordinary for most dove shoots I've seen. I would get some experience before getting critical of your new found activity.

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by JonBailey » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:08 pm

fishvik wrote:I'm not sure what your major beef with these guys is. These guys were probably encouraged to hunt those invasive Eurasian ringneck doves by the dairy owner because they were fouling feed. They may have fired over vehicles, it's hard to tell if the vehicles were in range from the camera angles. They never once fired at an angle that put vehicles, buildings, humans or livestock in the line of fire. They always kept that tank of fuel at a safe distance behind them. They were wearing camo, pretty standard for dove hunters. They had a trained dog. They picked up their empties when they were done. The dancing and fist bumps were a little over the top but nothing extraordinary for most dove shoots I've seen. I would get some experience before getting critical of your new found activity.

It looks like what they are doing is unsafe and maybe even unlawful. I did take a hunter safety course in California in 1996. You were never supposed to fire in the direction of buildings, over roadways or with people downrange in plain sight. We were also told to wear blaze orange while hunting.

edited by Sharon


The man at the top of this webpage in orange garb crouched down in the field by his dog looks like a proper hunter. I wouldn't sport the sideburns and beard, though.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by Steve007 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:02 pm

Certainly a stylish comment, Jon. Don't I recall your saying in a different thread that you were unfamiliar with shotguns or hunting with them? But if you took a hunter safety course in California in 1996 about deer hunting with rifles, I guess you're knowledgeable about this.

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by fishvik » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:58 pm

It is commonly known that camo is worn for bird hunting when the birds are coming to the hunter, like doves, waterfowl and turkeys. This is to hide the hunter and hunters usually know exactly where the other shooters are and do not put them in a line of fire. When walking up on birds it is a good idea to wear blaze orange because of all the pieces that are in motion, dogs, hunters and birds and shooting directions can change with a flush. But with your advice, I will definitely consult Gentlemans Quarterly before I go bird hunting this season to make sure I'm dressed and groomed properly.

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by JonBailey » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:05 pm

Steve007 wrote:Certainly a stylish comment, Jon. Don't I recall your saying in a different thread that you were unfamiliar with shotguns or hunting with them? But if you took a hunter safety course in California in 1996 about deer hunting with rifles, I guess you're knowledgeable about this.
No, I never had any hands-on with SPORTING shotguns or hunting with them. I read few books and saw a few movies about it here and there over my lifetime and my grandfather told me a couple things. I have yet to hold a shotgun in my hands and shoot something that is flying.

I have owned TACTICAL police pump shotguns and fired them at the range on silhouette paper targets but that is is a totally different discipline than shotgun sports with long vent-rib field barrels. The tactical shotgun with its short barrel, open choke and front bead is aimed like a rifle, more or less.

I am knowledgeable about hunter safety since I took that hunter safety course in CA. My hunting hands-on experience is with only rifles, not shotguns.

Just to say I know a thing or two about hunting doesn't make me an expert.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by JonBailey » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:34 pm

fishvik wrote:It is commonly known that camo is worn for bird hunting when the birds are coming to the hunter, like doves, waterfowl and turkeys. This is to hide the hunter and hunters usually know exactly where the other shooters are and do not put them in a line of fire. When walking up on birds it is a good idea to wear blaze orange because of all the pieces that are in motion, dogs, hunters and birds and shooting directions can change with a flush. But with your advice, I will definitely consult Gentlemans Quarterly before I go bird hunting this season to make sure I'm dressed and groomed properly.
In walk-up style hunting, I would want no more than two hunters in my party total for safety and control in the field. Two dogs max also. I have read about this in hunting publications. There was a story in Guns Digest years ago about a man who wrote a feature about hunting pheasants with a Browning Superposed over/under 20 ga. He would take turns shooting with his partner in "gentlemanly rotation" according to the feature. One man would shoot a flush while the partner "honored" (stood back and observed like a retriever on the line) so to speak. No more shooting would occur until the dog, a Brittany spaniel, retrieved the downed bird to hand. Then after the bird was recovered, it was the next man's turn to shoot. So this pattern just repeated until limits were taken or otherwise the hunt was over. This eliminated chaos and confusion and made things safe and controllable in the field.

Both hunters and dogs would wear blaze orange vests on the walk-up hunt.

In stand hunting it might be OK to have hunters in camo sitting at their stations without orange. I would still have to check my game regs to see if orange is required. In stationary hunting you don't have men roaming all over the field while guns are banging away. The dogs just work underneath the gunfire. I think I would still have my retrievers in orange vests at the dove stand or duck blind. Wild animals and birds are blind to the color orange anyway and you can get orange/black break-up camo gear.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by fishvik » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:32 am

JonBailey wrote: I would still have to check my game regs to see if orange is required. In stationary hunting you don't have men roaming all over the field while guns are banging away. The dogs just work underneath the gunfire. I think I would still have my retrievers in orange vests at the dove stand or duck blind. Wild animals and birds are blind to the color orange anyway and you can get orange/black break-up camo gear.
The only place in Idaho where hunter orange is required is on State WMA's when hunting upland game, with the exception of turkeys. Birds do see color, very well. That explains the sexual dimorphism in most species, particularly waterfowl. That is why everything in a duck blind is normally camoed up, or at least in drab earth colors, the hunter, the boat, the blind and this includes the neoprene vests the dogs wear. You or dog would flare a lot of ducks and doves if you two were clad in hunter orange.

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by JonBailey » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:29 am

fishvik wrote:
JonBailey wrote: I would still have to check my game regs to see if orange is required. In stationary hunting you don't have men roaming all over the field while guns are banging away. The dogs just work underneath the gunfire. I think I would still have my retrievers in orange vests at the dove stand or duck blind. Wild animals and birds are blind to the color orange anyway and you can get orange/black break-up camo gear.
The only place in Idaho where hunter orange is required is on State WMA's when hunting upland game, with the exception of turkeys. Birds do see color, very well. That explains the sexual dimorphism in most species, particularly waterfowl. That is why everything in a duck blind is normally camoed up, or at least in drab earth colors, the hunter, the boat, the blind and this includes the neoprene vests the dogs wear. You or dog would flare a lot of ducks and doves if you two were clad in hunter orange.
Well, probably no orange at stands or blinds then as doves and ducks are often hunted.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by Fitter47449 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:58 am

So, from what I gather, with your limited knowledge from a hunting safety course you took over 2 decades ago, and you're extremely limited hunting knowledge, that is derived (as far as I can tell) completely from magazines and books, with little to no real world experience. Ethical would be to find out the entire story behind the video before slamming a couple of guys which you have no knowledge about.

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by JonBailey » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:57 pm

Fitter47449 wrote:So, from what I gather, with your limited knowledge from a hunting safety course you took over 2 decades ago, and you're extremely limited hunting knowledge, that is derived (as far as I can tell) completely from magazines and books, with little to no real world experience. Ethical would be to find out the entire story behind the video before slamming a couple of guys which you have no knowledge about.
That's about the size of it.

I would rather first know what I'm doing before I head out in the field with a gun.

As an American soldier and now a vet, I've had a lot of safety training crammed down my throat at rifle ranges.

Weapons safety was beat into my head for seven years. A military vet is an excellent candidate for shooting sports.

Ethical is safety first.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by oldbeek » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:02 pm

JonBailey wrote:
fishvik wrote:It is commonly known that camo is worn for bird hunting when the birds are coming to the hunter, like doves, waterfowl and turkeys. This is to hide the hunter and hunters usually know exactly where the other shooters are and do not put them in a line of fire. When walking up on birds it is a good idea to wear blaze orange because of all the pieces that are in motion, dogs, hunters and birds and shooting directions can change with a flush. But with your advice, I will definitely consult Gentlemans Quarterly before I go bird hunting this season to make sure I'm dressed and groomed properly.
In walk-up style hunting, I would want no more than two hunters in my party total for safety and control in the field. Two dogs max also. I have read about this in hunting publications. There was a story in Guns Digest years ago about a man who wrote a feature about hunting pheasants with a Browning Superposed over/under 20 ga. He would take turns shooting with his partner in "gentlemanly rotation" according to the feature. One man would shoot a flush while the partner "honored" (stood back and observed like a retriever on the line) so to speak. No more shooting would occur until the dog, a Brittany spaniel, retrieved the downed bird to hand. Then after the bird was recovered, it was the next man's turn to shoot. So this pattern just repeated until limits were taken or otherwise the hunt was over. This eliminated chaos and confusion and made things safe and controllable in the field.

Both hunters and dogs would wear blaze orange vests on the walk-up hunt.

In stand hunting it might be OK to have hunters in camo sitting at their stations without orange. I would still have to check my game regs to see if orange is required. In stationary hunting you don't have men roaming all over the field while guns are banging away. The dogs just work underneath the gunfire. I think I would still have my retrievers in orange vests at the dove stand or duck blind. Wild animals and birds are blind to the color orange anyway and you can get orange/black break-up camo gear.
Never go on a drive hunt for Phesants in SD. 15 shooters driving the birds with 10 dogs. 5 blockers at the end of the corn rows. Free for all at the end of the field when 40 birds take to the air. Everybody shooting at once.

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by JonBailey » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:31 pm

oldbeek wrote:
JonBailey wrote:
fishvik wrote:It is commonly known that camo is worn for bird hunting when the birds are coming to the hunter, like doves, waterfowl and turkeys. This is to hide the hunter and hunters usually know exactly where the other shooters are and do not put them in a line of fire. When walking up on birds it is a good idea to wear blaze orange because of all the pieces that are in motion, dogs, hunters and birds and shooting directions can change with a flush. But with your advice, I will definitely consult Gentlemans Quarterly before I go bird hunting this season to make sure I'm dressed and groomed properly.
In walk-up style hunting, I would want no more than two hunters in my party total for safety and control in the field. Two dogs max also. I have read about this in hunting publications. There was a story in Guns Digest years ago about a man who wrote a feature about hunting pheasants with a Browning Superposed over/under 20 ga. He would take turns shooting with his partner in "gentlemanly rotation" according to the feature. One man would shoot a flush while the partner "honored" (stood back and observed like a retriever on the line) so to speak. No more shooting would occur until the dog, a Brittany spaniel, retrieved the downed bird to hand. Then after the bird was recovered, it was the next man's turn to shoot. So this pattern just repeated until limits were taken or otherwise the hunt was over. This eliminated chaos and confusion and made things safe and controllable in the field.

Both hunters and dogs would wear blaze orange vests on the walk-up hunt.

In stand hunting it might be OK to have hunters in camo sitting at their stations without orange. I would still have to check my game regs to see if orange is required. In stationary hunting you don't have men roaming all over the field while guns are banging away. The dogs just work underneath the gunfire. I think I would still have my retrievers in orange vests at the dove stand or duck blind. Wild animals and birds are blind to the color orange anyway and you can get orange/black break-up camo gear.
Never go on a drive hunt for Phesants in SD. 15 shooters driving the birds with 10 dogs. 5 blockers at the end of the corn rows. Free for all at the end of the field when 40 birds take to the air. Everybody shooting at once.
I want to go out to enjoy some peace and quiet anyway: not the clamor of a crowd. I want to actually get away from the rat race of the city: Boise, ID. I wouldn't mind going to a major dove shoot since every shooter has an assigned stand for safety in the field.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by Fitter47449 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:59 pm

JonBailey wrote:
Fitter47449 wrote:So, from what I gather, with your limited knowledge from a hunting safety course you took over 2 decades ago, and you're extremely limited hunting knowledge, that is derived (as far as I can tell) completely from magazines and books, with little to no real world experience. Ethical would be to find out the entire story behind the video before slamming a couple of guys which you have no knowledge about.
That's about the size of it.

I would rather first know what I'm doing before I head out in the field with a gun.

As an American soldier and now a vet, I've had a lot of safety training crammed down my throat at rifle ranges.

Weapons safety was beat into my head for seven years. A military vet is an excellent candidate for shooting sports.

Ethical is safety first.
Well, I appreciate and thank you for your service. You should still get some real life experience hunting before you judge those with years of it. Like a few others have said here, the farmers were more then grateful for the hunters taking care of the doves. If the men in the video were doing anything wrong, I don't know of very many farmers that would have allowed to them continue hunting there.

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:18 am

Well, blaze orange can make sense in crowed conditions, it can be the law and it can be considerate of hunting partners but there are no ethical breaks if one chooses to not wear it.
Personally, i dislike blaze orange but I dislike camo as well....still there are the times above when I happily wear blaze orange....or camo.

The dancing and fist bumps(I hate fist bumps) :D are more from having, I would guess, a camera upon them. Humans can act a bit silly when the red light goes on.
Again tho...hardly a cracking of any ethical base.

Whether they were hunting a farm or feedlot or whatever, I suspect it unlikely that the owner complained....he may even have been dancing. :?:
Dangerous?....probably not but I personally would not shoot where folks are working.....small shot drop is more the appearance than disaster but as with blaze orange and fist bump, it is more fodder to rant than rising to a level of headline.

Taking turns to gun is not unusual tho likely more usual in a controlled or scripted Preserve level of experience. Can’t see how that decision means much as to the actual individual or hunting image but....if looks are as deep as analysis goes then...perhaps.
We all have seen actions that send a shiver of some sort...some appearing as dangerous and some, like stogie-chomping fat guys in a quail wagon.....presents an image I would not court as a birdhunter of 53 seasons.
Lot of different folks out and about and we simply do not have to agree or consider ourselves represented by any of them....make a note as necessary and move on.
The “idiot” comment was uncalled for....for all of which you have no clue.
Much the same if I would call Californios some name or those whose experience is of a youtube, book or hmmmm level.

The only other point is on your quest for peace and quiet.....a dove shoot is not really a base for that.
Just isn’t...doves are more a communal shoot, a controlling of a pest more than hunting....it is bang-bang shooting, odds on.
There are many options for a day ie with a double and a soft-padding setter, but if you go there.....watch trying to make others fit your own attitude and preconceptions.
Even us old fellers find that off-putting......even from a soldier boy.
Good luck this season, if you go.

Final kudos to that Lab......he appeared to know his stuff and was having fun.
One main reason for being...anywhere.

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by fishvik » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:34 am

Mountaineer, That was actually a flat coated retriever, not a Lab.

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:44 am

Thanks......too quick a look and an assumption, with anything, is never good, eh?

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by fishvik » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:34 am

Mountaineer wrote:Thanks......too quick a look and an assumption, with anything, is never good, eh?
That's okay, we old timers have to watch out for each other. By the way, I totally agree with your post, I'm really hoping this guy gets some training before he goes to the field. I'm afraid, being an instructor, that the Hunter ED program in Idaho has become way too antler/rifle centric and he might not get much upland bird hunting education.

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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:18 pm

I would be willing to bet these guys had permission from the owners/operators considering how many shots they took without interruption.

To the OP... with a shotgun, there are unsafe shots, there are borderline shots, there are dumb shots, and then there are good shots. To explain: unsafe is where serious injury WILL happen; borderline is when serious injury could LIKELY happen; dumb is when you shower someone with pellets but they don't cause serious injury (I've taken multiple lead showers without any harm) (eye protection is smart); and the rest, are good.

Real life is different than books and movies... if I only learned from books and movies my world would be much different... The guy would always get the girl, hilarious hijinks would never result in any legal trouble, One Ring would rule them all, and the real heroes would be Wookies... man that would be quite the life.
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Re: It's idiots like this who put ethical American hunters ...

Post by art hubbard » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:55 pm

Enough space this JonBaily stuff already. Taking up valuable space that could be more interesting !

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