Gun Dog Forum

Who out there trains without an e-collar?

I start out training without a collar. Until I know for sure that they know what is expected of them do I use a collar. The collar is too easy to depend on and I believe a lot of people use it as a crutch. When my dogs leave here from training, they have not been introduced to the collar. I always use a collar when hunting mainly for deer chasing, however.

I know of a lot of people that I think depend on the collar to much, I think you can train a great dog without one, just takes more time and patience.

You should have add Both I start with out and slowly work it in on some things

Is using the e-collar a HPR thing - generally with Spaniels we tend not to use them unless we have real problems with things such as the recall, or chasing livestock etc.

I don't use one as I have many more techniques that work with Spaniels - maybe they are a little more sensitive to reprimand than your HPR type dog?

I do have a friend that has one that I would access to should I have problems of a life or death nature.

Seems to be the norm that most HPR owners use that at some point in their training.

Please do correct me if I am wrong

Lisa

I don’t have the cash to go get e-collars at this moment, so I’m training without them. I've used the plantations from time to time. It DEFFINATLY takes more patience FOR ME when training without the e-collar. It drives me CRAZY if I say come and a dog stops and looks at me, knows he’s suppose to come, and then turns the other way and takes off.

When I have a problem with a certain behaviour, I always look at the bigger picture. A good case springs to mind very recently - a week ago in actual fact!

A women came to me with a spaniel (12 months old) that never came back when he was called. So I said, okay, let's see what he is doing.

So out we go, small field with plenty of bunny scent.

2 1/2 hours later we got him back. Right all you lot say, that dog is soooo disobedient.
BUT, when he was called he would come back within 25 feet. and lie down, If you went to go towards him to get him, or encourage him closer he would just bog off again. Also they have done all the classic recall exercises. And up until 5 months ao this dog was coming back no problem.

So what has changed?

Well the lady is question had been ill and so had started walking him on a Halti (headcollar) so that she could control if he pulled. And when did this happen........5 months ago - can you see the picture starting to build....

If I go back to the start of the walk, when she produces the lead, this dog went and hid and cowered. And she managed to grab him to put the lead on(I told not to use Halti). Now dogs normally don't have that sort of reaction when you get the lead out do they. They know it means a good thing.

Anyway to cut a long story short, the recall has broken down since the introduction of the Halti. So all trust had broken down, as he hated it so much. And the problem being that when he did come back he was wacked straight on that lead/halti, as they had spent three hours trying to get him back. The very thing he hated. So each time he was off the lead, doing the very thing he loved (hunting, and he's no mean hunter I can tell you that!) he had to stop to go straight back on the lead.

SO when we did manage to get him back after the 2 1/2 hours, I did not put him a the lead - I just popped a slip lead over his head, but never let it get tight - so he thought he wasn't on the lead. I walked him back to the car, just encouraging him to walk to heel (which he can do quite nicely, if given the chance) and popped him in the car.

Solution! (and it has worked within a week!) - when they recall him they put him on the slip lead, walk him to heel for a couple of steps, give loads of praise, and then let him off again as a reward. Now he comes back because that trust is back,and by letting have a little hunt again, he never knows if he is going home cos the walk is finished, or if he going to have a little hunt again.

Like I say, you are always learning when a trainer,and it always pays to look at the bigger picture


Lisa

That makes sense to me

I was just thinking of asking this question. I started using one around 8mo. because, all of a sudden, she decided she would not 'come' anymore. Literally would not listen, I don't know if she was going thru the teen rebellious age or what. I needed something to get her attention, for safefy precautions as I could not rely on her to come back on 'her' time as there is a fairly busy road she potentially could get to.

I must say, so as not to confuse, she had been listening and 'coming' perfectly up until that time and when she came, she got praise and then released again for her good job.

It worked wonders and now I'm to the point of not wanting to "rely" on the collar and want to work away from using it, at least at the field we work in. I will always have one on her in different places we will take her for safety reasons and deer chasing etc., but am wanting NOT to have to always put it on. She rarely gets stimulation anyhow, just on for safety.

I also wanted to note that I did alot of research on the collar before purchasing it and was used ONLY for commands she already knew. I don't want anyone to get a collar and slap it on their dog and think its a cure all. Do your research to MAKE SURE TO USE IT CORRECTLY.

its a very handy tool but not a magic wand.

i have found it to be something that is better to have and not need than to need and not have.

I find that I get just as good results without it. I own one but restrict it's use to lifethreatening situations. I do FF and do CC but don't use the collar in momentary or constant mode unless I absolutely have to. I do use the collar all the time in the tone only mode.
AB

I voted without but they do have their time and place . When I use one it's as a last resort for disobediance , which is usually done at a distance that the dog fiqures you can't reach it . As well as the timing of the reprimand .

I have 2 combo collers for my dogs, I find the biggest use for them is to correct wrong behavior...deer chasing....digging...trash digging
But occasionally i use them to enforce commands that they doing sloppy on...enforcing come......leave it......drop.. a little nick is all it takes.
The beeper portion of the coller is great when hunting...I find i use the locate button quite often just to keep track of where there at... especially in thick country.
I have used the ecoller to train heel with 1 of my dogs that always wanted to lead the way when healing. He would always move infront of me. So i used the e coller and it worked well for him..he finally got the picture of what i wanted.

I voted yes, but would've voted both if possible. I know books have been written on how to use the collar from the get go, but I believe, as others here, that you should only use it on commands the dog all ready understands. In the field my dogs always wear the e-collar, with the exception being when we duck hunt and no other dogs are around.

Steve

raven wrote:You should have add Both I start with out and slowly work it in on some things

I agree. You need to use it on some things but not on others. It also depends on what type of collar it is.

Everyone should be able to cast another vote on this topic now....

one very handy bit of advise i got when i started training my pup was NEVER give a command that you cannot reinforce. i very much understand the whole lack of funding for e collars , but it might help to have a long lead attached or something so that you CAN reinforce commands such as come. once your dog figures out that he or she does not have to obey commands that you give, you could be in for a whole world of problems. of course, having more patience never hurts when training with or without an e collar. btw, try collarclinic.com .... they have rebuilt collars at prices that dont flatten the wallet quite as much.
sudie

I use my e-collar as a last resort and never when working with birds

I haven't used on the dog or my wife yet and we generally work out things OK w/o it so I just can't justify the cost. Also don't want the problem when it's off that some dogs seem to learn. Working with just one dog right now and not for a living so little pressure to have perfect response. Sometimes wish I had one for an immediate STOP in a life threatening situation but counter to my relationship so we try to plan better. Most dogs I've had think the world is ending if I raise my voice. They'd probably melt with shock