Anyway, all six of my dogs are both snake broke and vaccinated. A person in snake country needs to do all they can do for their dog. We're in total agreement on that....but a dog accidently running over a snake only recieve dry bites which have minimal vemon.....
Snake bit
Kline, Check out your post on page 3, the next to the last post. You most certainly used the word "ONLY."
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kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
Sorry not the word i meant to use...my bad....
WIll go back and edit that
WIll go back and edit that
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
that should be ok knine yor heart is in the right place, trying to make sure we all get snakeproofing and not to rely on the vaccine only.
:salute:
:salute:
Billy
"Change the way you look at things, and the things you look at change"
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=147
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=152
"Change the way you look at things, and the things you look at change"
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=147
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=152
But thoe who go wherre the rattlesnake are and you get the vaccine and your dog goes in and gets bit because you don't think snake avoidance is imortant ..remember those of us who tried and tell you
KNINE I think you need to take a chill pill NO ONE has said to not do snake avoidance at all in this thread. Matter of fact we have all said it is a good thing and when done right even better. I see Clown already corrected you on the issue of your wording and your contention with my post
.
I have hunted around snakes my WHOLE life 8 species of poisonous ones live in my state including the coral and a man not 20 miles from me got hit by a pygmy rattler AND a copperhead that were within 10 feet of each other just last week. In other words I have been snakebreaking dogs, or watching my older relatives do it for 38 years, so it's not something I dont believe in. I bring up the scent issue because a copperhead or Mocc or coral makes zero sound they just strike and a mocc will chase your butt down if he feels like it. Thats all I did was mention the NEED I feel to go that extra mile and not stop with the sight and sound along with the vaccine due to cases like I mentioned the last two years and now we throw in Clowns dog as well all snakebroke but all hit by passover strikes and all envenomated.
No need to get up in arms because someone mentions the need for an overlooked issue especially since many folks do live where there are snakes that make no noise and are just as agressive, and in the case of the Mocc and coral just as venomous as buzztails are. I was not making a comment on yours or anyone elses use of snake breaking, there aint a monopoly on venomous snakes to the desert and grasslands. Lighten up it's just sharing of information thats overlooked.
KNINE I think you need to take a chill pill NO ONE has said to not do snake avoidance at all in this thread. Matter of fact we have all said it is a good thing and when done right even better. I see Clown already corrected you on the issue of your wording and your contention with my post
. I have hunted around snakes my WHOLE life 8 species of poisonous ones live in my state including the coral and a man not 20 miles from me got hit by a pygmy rattler AND a copperhead that were within 10 feet of each other just last week. In other words I have been snakebreaking dogs, or watching my older relatives do it for 38 years, so it's not something I dont believe in. I bring up the scent issue because a copperhead or Mocc or coral makes zero sound they just strike and a mocc will chase your butt down if he feels like it. Thats all I did was mention the NEED I feel to go that extra mile and not stop with the sight and sound along with the vaccine due to cases like I mentioned the last two years and now we throw in Clowns dog as well all snakebroke but all hit by passover strikes and all envenomated.
No need to get up in arms because someone mentions the need for an overlooked issue especially since many folks do live where there are snakes that make no noise and are just as agressive, and in the case of the Mocc and coral just as venomous as buzztails are. I was not making a comment on yours or anyone elses use of snake breaking, there aint a monopoly on venomous snakes to the desert and grasslands. Lighten up it's just sharing of information thats overlooked.
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Dave Gowdey
Snakes and dogs
Just some clarification on the subject. The rattlesnakes are generally the most venomous snakes that most of us will encounter here in the US (the coral snake is more venomous, but also very limited in distribution). The venom composition varies by species. Some are hemotoxic - affecting the blood and circulatory system; some are neurotoxic - affecting the nervous system; and at least one, the Mojave Green, is a combination. By most accounts, this combined with it's ornery attitude, makes the Mojave Green the most dangerous of the rattlesnakes. It is common from southeastern AZ to southern Nevada and the Mojave desert in California.
Those of us who live in the Great Basin and upper midwest are much more likely to encounter the prairie rattler. This snake can kill a dog, but it is more unusual for a dog to die from this bite than from some of the more dangerous rattlesnake species found in the SW. The venom doesn't appear to be as powerful, and the snake itself doesn't appear to be as aggressive
My understanding is that the Red Rock vaccine has been based upon the western diamondback. This widespread snake is also very dangerous, as much for its size and the dose of venom it is capable of giving, as for the toxicity of its venom. This snake probably kills the most dogs each year all told -which is probably why RedRock chose it. This means that if your dog is bitten by a Western diamondback, the vaccine will be the most effective. If it is bitten by a different rattlesnake species the effectiveness will vary depending upon how similar the venom is to western diamondback venom.
There are two basic things that determine whether a dog will survive a snake bite -the first is where the dog is bit, and the second is how much venom was injected. As was noted before, many if not most rattlesnake bites are "dry" bites that inject little or no venom. With these bites, the greatest danger is infection. This is the "bee sting" model cite above.
When venom IS injected, the location of the bite is critical. Bites on the face and head tend not to be as dangerous because the blood vessels tend to be much smaller and don't tend to pump the venom very far into the dog's system before swelling and the dog's immune system walls it off. This is why, when your dog is bit on the head, the first thing you need to do is loosen or remove the dog's collar so he won't choke when the swelling starts. Most dogs will survive a bite on the face or head with treatment with antihistamine and/or steroids to reduce swelling, and antibiotics.
Bites in the chest or near a major artery are much more serious. In my experience, these are much less common - but far more severe. It seems from what I've seen that a surprised rattlesnake tends to exert less control over the amount of venom it injects - and often strikes in the chest on a running dog seem to inject a full dose. Dry bites seem less common in these areas. In these cases, with a full dose of venom from Mojave or Western diamondback in the chest, the dog almost inevitably dies within a half hour.
The best thing a dog owner can do is to try to avoid his dog encountering snakes altogether. The most important element of this is common sense. Waiting to hunt your dog until cold weather has put most of the snakes in their dens is common sense. Avoiding hunting "snakey" areas around rock faces or heavy brush along watercourses - is another element of common sense. The next thing is to snake break your dogs. This isn't foolproof, but nothing really is. It can save a dog's life and it is silly not to do it. Given the danger of handling rattlesnakes, I do NOT recommend doing this yourself. Take your dog to a professional trainer and get the job done for $50-$75 depending upon the local rate. Get a good pro that, as Duane describes, teaches the dogs to avoid snakes by sight, scent, and sound - not just one or two of them. Dogs snake broke from six months to a year of age should be snake broke again as adults. Often snake breaking at that age doesn't "take" permanently because the dog's are too mentally immature to remember the lesson.
If a dog IS bit, then you need to get it to a vet ASAP. I also carry some benadryl with me in my vest. Give the dog the benadryl ASAP - it will help reduce the severity of the swelling and help keep airways open, as well as sedating the dog so that the venom doesn't spread as fast. Most vets with a lot of experience with snake bites won't administer anti-venin at first. Most will start with a course of antihistamines, steroids, and antibiotics. 70% of the time this treatment will be sufficient -either because the dog didn't get much venom or because of where the bite was located. In cases where anti-venin is needed, most vets will have to order it in from a major hospital - because it is too expensive and difficult to keep for most vets to store it in their office. Anti-venin treatment is VERY expensive (as noted $600 per vial and severely struck dogs may require several vials).
The bite and the immediate effects from the venom are just one of the consequences of a rattlesnake bite. The venom is so toxic that even small amounts can cause failure or damage to the heart or brain, or secondary organs such as the kidneys, liver, etc. A young dog that recovers from a snakebite may, as a canine senior citizen, succumb to early kidney or heart failure because of the long term weakening of these organs caused by the snake bite. In addition, most forms of rattlesnake venom kill massive amounts of tissue. The hemotoxic venoms are the worst I believe. They rupture blood cell walls, and the walls of other cells. Humans that survive a rattlesnake bite on the hand often have to have fingers amputated because the tissue loss and damage has been so severe. In dogs, this can result in massive loss of tissue causing large, open, weaping wounds. Antibiotics are essential to prevent gangrene and serious infection from killing the dog or causing permanent injury.
It is because rattlesnake venom is so toxic, I have not yet given the new vaccine to my dogs. The venom even in small doses does such serious damage to all of the major organs, such as kidneys and the liver, that I'm still not persuaded that the vaccine is safe over time. I'd hate to find out that it contributes to kidney or liver failure in dogs in their later years when it's too late for me to do anything about it. I am therefore watching the progress with this vaccine closely - and waiting to see if there are any long term side effects.
On the positive side, in 35 years of hunting in Arizona I have successfully avoided any disastrous encounters and I hope to continue the streak.
Those of us who live in the Great Basin and upper midwest are much more likely to encounter the prairie rattler. This snake can kill a dog, but it is more unusual for a dog to die from this bite than from some of the more dangerous rattlesnake species found in the SW. The venom doesn't appear to be as powerful, and the snake itself doesn't appear to be as aggressive
My understanding is that the Red Rock vaccine has been based upon the western diamondback. This widespread snake is also very dangerous, as much for its size and the dose of venom it is capable of giving, as for the toxicity of its venom. This snake probably kills the most dogs each year all told -which is probably why RedRock chose it. This means that if your dog is bitten by a Western diamondback, the vaccine will be the most effective. If it is bitten by a different rattlesnake species the effectiveness will vary depending upon how similar the venom is to western diamondback venom.
There are two basic things that determine whether a dog will survive a snake bite -the first is where the dog is bit, and the second is how much venom was injected. As was noted before, many if not most rattlesnake bites are "dry" bites that inject little or no venom. With these bites, the greatest danger is infection. This is the "bee sting" model cite above.
When venom IS injected, the location of the bite is critical. Bites on the face and head tend not to be as dangerous because the blood vessels tend to be much smaller and don't tend to pump the venom very far into the dog's system before swelling and the dog's immune system walls it off. This is why, when your dog is bit on the head, the first thing you need to do is loosen or remove the dog's collar so he won't choke when the swelling starts. Most dogs will survive a bite on the face or head with treatment with antihistamine and/or steroids to reduce swelling, and antibiotics.
Bites in the chest or near a major artery are much more serious. In my experience, these are much less common - but far more severe. It seems from what I've seen that a surprised rattlesnake tends to exert less control over the amount of venom it injects - and often strikes in the chest on a running dog seem to inject a full dose. Dry bites seem less common in these areas. In these cases, with a full dose of venom from Mojave or Western diamondback in the chest, the dog almost inevitably dies within a half hour.
The best thing a dog owner can do is to try to avoid his dog encountering snakes altogether. The most important element of this is common sense. Waiting to hunt your dog until cold weather has put most of the snakes in their dens is common sense. Avoiding hunting "snakey" areas around rock faces or heavy brush along watercourses - is another element of common sense. The next thing is to snake break your dogs. This isn't foolproof, but nothing really is. It can save a dog's life and it is silly not to do it. Given the danger of handling rattlesnakes, I do NOT recommend doing this yourself. Take your dog to a professional trainer and get the job done for $50-$75 depending upon the local rate. Get a good pro that, as Duane describes, teaches the dogs to avoid snakes by sight, scent, and sound - not just one or two of them. Dogs snake broke from six months to a year of age should be snake broke again as adults. Often snake breaking at that age doesn't "take" permanently because the dog's are too mentally immature to remember the lesson.
If a dog IS bit, then you need to get it to a vet ASAP. I also carry some benadryl with me in my vest. Give the dog the benadryl ASAP - it will help reduce the severity of the swelling and help keep airways open, as well as sedating the dog so that the venom doesn't spread as fast. Most vets with a lot of experience with snake bites won't administer anti-venin at first. Most will start with a course of antihistamines, steroids, and antibiotics. 70% of the time this treatment will be sufficient -either because the dog didn't get much venom or because of where the bite was located. In cases where anti-venin is needed, most vets will have to order it in from a major hospital - because it is too expensive and difficult to keep for most vets to store it in their office. Anti-venin treatment is VERY expensive (as noted $600 per vial and severely struck dogs may require several vials).
The bite and the immediate effects from the venom are just one of the consequences of a rattlesnake bite. The venom is so toxic that even small amounts can cause failure or damage to the heart or brain, or secondary organs such as the kidneys, liver, etc. A young dog that recovers from a snakebite may, as a canine senior citizen, succumb to early kidney or heart failure because of the long term weakening of these organs caused by the snake bite. In addition, most forms of rattlesnake venom kill massive amounts of tissue. The hemotoxic venoms are the worst I believe. They rupture blood cell walls, and the walls of other cells. Humans that survive a rattlesnake bite on the hand often have to have fingers amputated because the tissue loss and damage has been so severe. In dogs, this can result in massive loss of tissue causing large, open, weaping wounds. Antibiotics are essential to prevent gangrene and serious infection from killing the dog or causing permanent injury.
It is because rattlesnake venom is so toxic, I have not yet given the new vaccine to my dogs. The venom even in small doses does such serious damage to all of the major organs, such as kidneys and the liver, that I'm still not persuaded that the vaccine is safe over time. I'd hate to find out that it contributes to kidney or liver failure in dogs in their later years when it's too late for me to do anything about it. I am therefore watching the progress with this vaccine closely - and waiting to see if there are any long term side effects.
On the positive side, in 35 years of hunting in Arizona I have successfully avoided any disastrous encounters and I hope to continue the streak.
Brenda, here's what I received in an email today, direct from Red Rock:
If I'm not mistaken, a cottonmouth and a water moccasin are the same snake.
Code: Select all
Thank you for your interest in Red Rock Biologics’ Crotalus Atrox Toxoid.
There is currently only one formulation of the vaccine currently available. It is derived from venom from the Western Diamondback rattlesnake. We have tested it extensively to determine how much cross protection (if any) the vaccine affords against the various venomous snakes found throughout the United States. The vaccine unfortunately offers no protection against the Cottonmouth. We do have good protection against the Copperhead, and fair protection against the Timber.
We are beginning studies on a new formulation of the vaccine that we anticipate will offer protection against the Cottonmouth and better protection against the venomous snakes found throughout the South East. We will notify veterinarians in areas where these snakes are active once the vaccine is available commercially.
Sincerely,- Steven
Justus Kennels.com
Justus James Ayres SH CGC - Justus - Rest in Peace, buddy.
Wind River's JK Clara Belle - Belle
Wind River's JK Black Tie Affair - Tux
Justus Kennels.com
Justus James Ayres SH CGC - Justus - Rest in Peace, buddy.
Wind River's JK Clara Belle - Belle
Wind River's JK Black Tie Affair - Tux