Rattlesnake Bite Vacinnations

[Hotpepper]

Anyone here have any experience with this procedure. Just wondering the cost and effectiveness of the vacinnation. Some discussion would be very helpful

[kninebirddog]

I know of dogs that ahve been bitten in the chest area about 30 days after booster ....it did not help

you can go to the red rocks biologics site and the FAQ section explains proper dosage for how much potential exposure a dog may have some areas they suggest boosters ever 4-6 months

UC Davis doesn't carry the vaccine

With out being able to do a real test such as controlled venom injection in animals that are vaccinated ..it is speculation at best how well i works or doesn't work

Since snakes may strike and no venom is injected or if it is just a drop of venom or a full dose of venom being injected isn't known

Snake Avoidance is primary ...snake vaccine can't hurt specially if it is effective but the vaccine is also only a way to slow the effects of the venom and it doesn't cover all species so getting to a vet is still very important to do no matter if they ahve the vaccine or not ...the dog still will require medical attention after a snake bite

[PrairieGoat]

Given my recent experience (see linked post), I wouldn't do without it......it is like carrying a little extra insurance...runs about $25 per vaccination (need 1 primary and then at least 1 booster / year). From my experience, I believe it to be effective although very dependent on circumstances (where bitten, amount of venom injected, amount of time since vaccination, etc.).

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 88&t=18701

[bossman]

Hunt in south Texas. Have been fortunate never to have one of my dogs hit. But have friends that have and in each case their dog recovered, both had been vaccinated... K9 is also right. Snake avoidance training is critical. All my friends vaccinate their dogs. You might want to do a yellow page search on the net for a vet in any south Texas town and give them a call and get their opinion. May be the cheapest call you ever make. The cost of the vaccine is not a "killer"...but the snake sure is!!...By the way, my wife and I will be in North Dakota in 3 weeks..Hope to see your dog..he looks great in the pictures!!

[mm]

How is the snake avoidance training done.
mm

[phermes1]

I've heard good things about, specifically with western diamondback bites since that's what the vaccine was specifically designed for. I've also heard that while there is some cross-protection against other types of rattlers, it's much more limited. Specifically with the eastern diamondback.

I have not personally had any of my dogs vaccinated. However, I'm going hunting in December in west Texas and I am definitely getting it done on all 4 dogs prior to that trip. The vaccine is so cheap, it's hard to justify not getting it, IMHO. Either way snake avoidance is an absolute must, no question about it

[R-Heaton]

UC Davis doesn't carry the vaccine

Knines,, why did you happen to bring UC Davis up???

[Boxa]

I have hunted west TX a fair bit (always after Thanksgiving) and knock on wood we've never had problems with snakes. I agree though that the vaccine seems to be cheap insurance.

[kninebirddog]

This is from 2006 I don't see anywhere where they have changed their minds on the vaccine since either

http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news ... so?id=7763
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:VF ... =firefox-a

Canine Rattlesnake Vaccine
The canine rattlesnake vaccine comprises venom components from Crotalus atrox (western diamondback). Although a rattlesnake vaccine may be potentially useful for dogs that frequently encounter rattlesnakes, currently we are unable to recommend this vaccine because of insufficient information regarding the efficacy of the vaccine in dogs. Dogs develop neutralizing antibody titers to C. atrox venom, and may also develop antibody titers to components of other rattlesnake venoms, but research in this area is ongoing. Owners of vaccinated dogs must still seek veterinary care immediately in the event of a bite, because 1) the type of snake is often unknown; 2) antibody titers may be overwhelmed in the face of severe envenomation, and 3) an individual dog may lack sufficient protection depending on its response to the vaccine and the time elapsed since vaccination. According to the manufacturer, to date, rare vaccinated dogs have died following a bite when there were substantial delays (12-24 hours) in seeking treatment. Recommendations for booster vaccination are still under development, but it appears that adequate titers do not persist beyond one year after vaccination. Adverse reactions appear to be low and consistent with those resulting from vaccination with other products available on the market. The product license is currently conditional as efficacy and potency have not been fully demonstrated. Based on existing evidence, the UC Davis VMTH does not currently recommend routine vaccination of dogs for rattlesnake envenomation, and the vaccine is not stocked by our pharmacy.

also from red rocks biologics they even state some areas need vaccinations every 4-6 months and yes still requires medical attention after a shot

there is a guy over on PDj who's young Pointer last year was struck by a large texas rattler in he chest area..and the dog was on the vaccine it was 30 days after the booster shot but to no help the dog still passed away

he still will adminster the vaccine to his dogs but the snake was a surprise to he dog running

we snake avoidance train our dogs

the pros and cons it doesn't hurt to give it ...just don't think your dog is impervious to the venom just because of the shots

[bossman]

Gosh k9..I don't think anyone said they thought their dog would be "imperious to the venom"...and ofcourse we are going to rush the dog to the vet if it gets hit. But this could be just one more "arrow in our quiver" to protect our dogs. If someone thinks it's of no use, don't use it..I will continue to use it. I've known and hunted with my vet for 25 years..if he told me running my dogs with sun glasses on might protect them from rattlesnakes I would probably run them with sun glasses (come to think of it they might look pretty good with sun glasses).

[kninebirddog]

Bossman You would be amazed what some people think and Yes I do know a few that think that the vaccine is the Magic snake shot which makes their dogs 100% safe from venom.

[bossman]

Here is what I would recommend to those folks. Snake avoidance training in August or September ( I guess depending on when one's season starts). Snake vaccine about the same time. I will give a booster now if they are going to summer camp where rattlesnakes are prevalent ( as I have for one of my females getting ready to go North). Always carry two syringe's of "Crotalus Atrox Toxoid". Administer one to a dog if it is hit. Rush the dog to the vet, we would call the vet on the way so he can be prepared. I am sure there would be lots of praying and some crying on the way. Oh..I forgot to mention...kill the D--- snake. Where I usually hunt we know it will be a Western Diamondback (we still kill it). But is is important if we are hunting outside our normal range and would bring the snake to the vet for identification. If we hunt in a new area we always check out the local vets,find out where they are, get emergancy phone numbers and stop to introduce ourselves. Anyway, thats my routine and my story..I am stickin' with it. Hope it help..If anyone has additional ideas... would love to hear them. Oh..one last thing..be mentally prepared. If you hunt enough in snake country..certainly might happen. Don't freeze. Know what your plan is and do it!!

[kninebirddog]

I tell people

Snake Avoidance is Insurance
Snake Vaccine - Uninsured Motorist

[PrairieGoat]

Good analogy......and a huge heap of luck helps too! A hit in the chest/abdomen is generally fatal regardless....


Randy

[kninebirddog]

This is from the guy who lost his pointer pup ,,,,The shot was a booster shot in this post that is being referred to... Sad part is the guy had lost another dog a year before this to a rattler..then this year his son stepping out of a work truck was struck in the leg..his son had snake boots on but still received a pretty good welt from the snake anyways all we can do is cover the bases and it is in Gods hands after that..this is a case where the vaccine didn't work and I doubt snake avoidance would have made a difference either

I took my dogs in for thier snake and rabies 4 weeks ago. The 2 pups have to go get another now.

The snake hit Colt just forward of the middle of his rib cage, just under his loin. The puncture marks were just shy of two that's 2 inches. Straddled 2 ribs. There is no meat there and a snake of his size had to have had fangs how long?

Colt was in full stride and ran by the snake and he nailed him. Colt never made a sound. Then the snake started singing and Zach heard him and started to it pleading with Willi to come in. Thank god she did, the snake was reared up over knee high waiting for another shot at something and Zach blew is head off.

When I got there, Colt ran up to me , and then yelped and fell against me. We knew then he had been hit and started looking for the marks. When we found them, I knew we didnt have much chance. All I have been told about the vaccine is it really dont help much on a body hit. I am not sure, butI think from the location of the hit and the size of the snake, it's possible he took a hit in the upper rear lobe of his left lung.

Zach carried him to the truck and we started out. Karla was trying to find a vet. When we got to head quarters we asked the biologists on duty about a vet and were told to head to Laredo. 10 miles to I35 and we still havent got a hold of one. The biologist called with a number for a vet in Dilley. No answer. No answer in laredo. No answer in Freer. I am headed that and trun around and head for San Antonio, to the emergency clinic I took Skynyrd to last August. Colt struggled for a long time and we had the Ac full blast. Finally, we got him up front in Karlas lap and he lay still for the rest of the way.

This so called Emergency clinic took over an hour before they did anything at all and then we were gonna have to take him across SA to another clinic because they closed at midnite. Also, thats where the new anti venin was.

we got there at 8:20. Just before 11 they called us in and said he was doing pretty good, could stand and blood work showed just some slight elevations in a couple of areas. They were gonna ready him for us to take across town and then they called us in and said they were having a problem. When the Dr came in I asked if he was dead, She said no, but she didnt think he would make it to the other clinic. Then she started talking about pet ambulances and all sorts of other BS. I told her to get my dog, If he was gonna die, he was gonna die with me and his family. After some more cover thier "bleep" paperwork, they brought him to me and I carried him out and sat in the back seat with him in my lap.

Karla started for home. He was just hangin on. Then he heaved a big sigh and I thought he ws gone, but he was still breathing shallow. Another big sigh every 2-3 minutes.

His release command is OK. I started rubbing his head and ears and telling him Ok , hoping he'd understand. At 11:57 about 6 miles from home he went limp and I knew he was gone.

Mom and Dad were still at camp with my other dogs. We got up this morning and went back, tore down camp.loaded up and came home. Then Zach and I buried him out back where he can hear the back yard covey calling. It was his favorite place when he was home.

[bossman]

No doubt a terrible tragedy...and the dog in all probability could not have been saved. But if I read the post correctly, a big problem was time wasted trying to get the dog to the proper place for care. That is why I think it is critical to do the research before you ever put a dog on the ground. You need to find out who is equipped to treat snake bites, where they are , try to make personal contact and how to reach them 24 hours a day. My deepest sympathies go out to the family. I think trying to save our dogs from snake bites is a "process" . Unfortunatly, there is no one perfect answer. K9, as always ..thanks for the good information

[kninebirddog]

The guy who lost the dog also made some other posts after about that very thing bossman Stressing to people about researching the vets in areas you plan on going hunting in
and yes it was pretty much determined that the location of the bite and the size of the snake it was doubtful anything really would have changed the ending results

[kninebirddog]

that is very true wingman we have the mojaves here also

I believe they have the nuerotoxin which the snake vaccine is completely useless against or is it the hemotoxin i get the 2 mixed up but fact is which ever the mojave has the vaccine is useless against

and I know some people that have spent in the 1000's trying to save their dog only to have it pass away weeks later from kidney and liver failure or as you said not make it back to the truck

[kninebirddog]

here again from red rock biologics they have again updated the how many times a booster maybe required...and this has changed every year since i started to look in to the vaccine but as I stated in my first post until they actually inject measured amount of venom in an animal and have real vaccinated versus unvaccinated results it will have the cloud of question over it and with the animal groups ..that test will be one of those protested type tests

http://www.redrockbiologics.com/FAQ.html

What types of snakes does this vaccine protect against?

This rattlesnake vaccine was developed to protect against Western Diamondback Rattlesnake venom. It is most effective against this snake's venom.

Venom from many other snakes found throughout the United States is similar to the venom of the Western Diamondback Rattlesnake. Because of these similarities, this vaccine also provides protection against the venoms of the Western Rattlesnake (including the Prairie, Great Basin, Northern and Southern Pacific Rattlesnakes), Sidewinder, Timber Rattlesnake, Massasauga and the Copperhead. This vaccine provides partial protection against the Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake.

This vaccine does not provide protection against the Water Moccasin (Cottonmouth), Mojave Rattlesnake or Coral Snakes. Red Rock Biologics is developing a variety of vaccines to provide the best protection against poisonous snakes for dogs in each part of the country.

any way

How long does protection last? How often should my dog be vaccinated?

The maximum protection generated by vaccination typically becomes available about four to six weeks after the most recent vaccine booster dose. That protection then declines slowly over time. Vaccinated dogs typically receive good protection for about six months after boostering. Depending on the dog, some protection may continue out to a year, or longer.

The first time your dog is vaccinated, we recommend an initial vaccine injection followed by a booster dose about one month later. The recommended subsequent boostering schedule of one, two or three vaccine doses per year depends upon your dog's anticipated exposure to rattlesnakes and the size of your dog.

Most dogs that are exposed to rattlesnakes for less than six months per year will only require a single booster dose for that year. The best time to give that dose is approximately one month before the start of the rattlesnake "season." This category includes dogs who live in roughly the northern half of the United States, or dogs who briefly visit locations where rattlesnakes may be active -- such as during a camping or hunting trip.

If your dog will be in an area where rattlesnakes are active for more than six months per year (roughly the southern half of the United States) we recommend two annual booster doses given four to six months apart. Again, the first booster dose should be given one month before the rattlesnake season begins. The second dose is given approximately half-way through the season.

If your dog is at particular risk of being bitten by a rattlesnake (for example, a search and rescue dog, some hunting dogs or dogs living in a high density rattlesnake area), you should consider using three booster doses per year at four month intervals.

Since resistance to venom depends upon the amount of venom neutralizing antibody available, small dogs (under 25 pounds) are at increased risk of envenomation injury. Because of this, a third dose in the initial sequence, and in subsequent years more frequent boosters (e.g. every four to six months), may be advisable in small dogs to maximize their antibody production for more protection.

Large dogs (over 100 pounds) do not develop as high an antibody level as intermediate-sized dogs in response to the two dose initial sequence. For this reason, large dogs may also benefit from a third dose in the initial sequence, although they do not necessarily require additional annual booster doses to maintain that antibody level.

How well does this vaccine work?

This vaccine works extremely well at getting dogs to generate protective antibody against rattlesnake venom. These protective antibodies start neutralizing venom immediately. This means that vaccinated dogs experience less pain and have a reduced risk of permanent injury from rattlesnake bite. Veterinarians typically report that such dogs experience less swelling, less tissue damage and a faster recovery from snakebite than unvaccinated dogs.

Factors which may influence antibody effectiveness against venomous snakebite include: the type of snake, location of bite and amount of venom injected; how well the dog has responded to the vaccine and the length of time since the last dose of vaccine was given to the dog.

then

[bossman]

Another board (if I'm allowed to name it...Upland Journal) has a similar discussion going..Pretty good read..You might want to check it out.

[zzweims]

My vet refuses to give the vaccine. In his experience, it has had zero affect on any of our eastern species. Plus, like k9 mentioned, some people see it as a magic pill and delay seeking veterinary care. He has also treated three dogs, including one that died, after they reacted to the vaccine itself.

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

[PrairieGoat]

K9,

Very sad story.....but I think you are right, there are certainly circumstances where neither the vaccine or avoidance training is going to work. This is the risk that we, as hunting dog owners, take every time we head afield in snake country. After our pup was bitten, my wife and I discussed the risks of letting our dogs run almost anywhere around here; since it is all potentially snake country. We both agree that we are not going to keep our dogs locked in the house all Spring/Summer/Fall. It would be criminal to keep these dogs from doing what they love to do....run, hunt, and train. We try to mitigate the risk by vaccination, snake avoidance training (still trying to get our second one trained), and by being extra cautious where/when we take them out, but the fact is that this only mitigates this risk, it doesn't eliminate it. In addition, snakes are only one of the MANY risks out there for a hard-hunting dog....but I wouldn't trade my time with a hard-hunting dog for anything in the world!

Randy

[PrairieGoat]

that is very true wingman we have the mojaves here also

I believe they have the nuerotoxin which the snake vaccine is completely useless against or is it the hemotoxin i get the 2 mixed up but fact is which ever the mojave has the vaccine is useless against

and I know some people that have spent in the 1000's trying to save their dog only to have it pass away weeks later from kidney and liver failure or as you said not make it back to the truck

I believe that most venomous snakes have a mixture of hemotoxin (attacks the vascular system) and neurotoxing (attacks the neurological system), but the ratios can be very different. I think both the Mojave and Coral Snake have more neurotoxin than the Western Diamondback (for which the vaccine was developed). Don't really know about the venom composition of the Water Moccasin.

Randy