Purdue Bloat Study....

[slistoe]

Curiously, what isn't included in this study is an analysis of other outside factors. If you look at the curve for the increase in reported bloat occurrences, you can see that the largest rise came between the years 1975 and 1982, and since 1982 the rate of occurrences line has not been nearly as curvy (the study reports that "there was a marked increase through the late 1970s, and the upward trend continued, although more gradually"). The study also raises two hypotheses (incorrectly characterized as theories) as to the rise in overall occurrences: the first being large breed popularity and the second being an environmental change which the study speculates may be due to a change in dog food manufacturing - a speculation with no marked investigation or testing.

They did not investigate changes in food, or manufacturing, but they clearly showed negative links to dry food, and how it is fed.

That's just it. It does not clearly show a negative link to dry food.

[brdhntr]

Curiously, what isn't included in this study is an analysis of other outside factors. If you look at the curve for the increase in reported bloat occurrences, you can see that the largest rise came between the years 1975 and 1982, and since 1982 the rate of occurrences line has not been nearly as curvy (the study reports that "there was a marked increase through the late 1970s, and the upward trend continued, although more gradually"). The study also raises two hypotheses (incorrectly characterized as theories) as to the rise in overall occurrences: the first being large breed popularity and the second being an environmental change which the study speculates may be due to a change in dog food manufacturing - a speculation with no marked investigation or testing.

They did not investigate changes in food, or manufacturing, but they clearly showed negative links to dry food, and how it is fed.

That's just it. It does not clearly show a negative link to dry food.

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/dietrisk.htm

[claybuster_aa]

You folks don't get. It's about money. They don't want you to know what causes bloat. The industry profits higher on omnivore and ruminant nutrition rather than carnivore nutrition. Have you looked at some of the ingredients found in dog food today? Marigold flowers? Yucca? Garlic? Clay? Organic Seaweed? etc, etc, etc.

Abady will assert, (and if you don't believe this I don't know how to prove something like this), there is no such thing as bloat in the wild, animals found eating natures diets. The problem doesn't exist in nature, when the animals are eating what nature would have them eat (meat, fat, blood, and bone). Guess what else does not exist in the wild? HD is another problem created by omnivore nutrition.

Natures diets compared to what is offered (omnivore nutrition) has created a "nutritional gap", for what it takes for the animal from a health standpoint to remain self sufficient.

Look at HD. Proper bone formation in nature is always right, and that includes ball and socket joints. In order for the body to perform tasks like proper bone formation, the nutritional requirements must be adequate. What Abady is saying in regards to HD, when the diet is right, bitches will yield puppies with textbook perfect hips each and every time. When the higher level of nutrition is sustained with the puppies growth and maturity, their offspring will again yield puppies with perfect hip, and so on down the line. It is not a miracle cure but rather a time cure, and you can eliminate HD in a colony. Genetics in this case is something passed down from improperly feed bitches throughout time. The body will be right when the diet is right.

Companies make a lot more money selling omnivore nutrition than they could otherwise with properly structured carnivore rations. Money dictates the level of nutrition to be offered. Abady will tell you, you don’t need their diets to overcome that nutritional gap created by commercial nutrition. If you have a working knowledge of ingredients, you can supplement with home prepared meat based rations to help out the weakness of kibble processing. You can also use vitamin supplementation as a means to bolster your current diets and improve them. Trying to take it to a higher level can’t hurt, it can only help and you will find you can overcome and avoid some problems.

[slistoe]

They did not investigate changes in food, or manufacturing, but they clearly showed negative links to dry food, and how it is fed.

That's just it. It does not clearly show a negative link to dry food.

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/dietrisk.htm

You need to work on your reading skills. I read through that last night looking for anything put out by Purdue to substantiate mcboscos claims. Implicated in that tidbit are high fat rations and citric acid in combination with wetting. Nothing about dry food in general. It is not indicated whether the raised food bowl is a risk when feeding dry food only, or when feeding all foods. Since no particular feed type is singled out one must assume that it is simply the raised bowl that is creating the problem for all feeds consumed in such a manner. Obviously the dry feed containing fat in the first four ingredients that was being used for the study was not Abady's food with Lard as the fourth ingredient because we all KNOW that no dog fed Abady dog food has ever or will ever develop bloat. Too bad the folks at Purdue didn't know it was the saponins causing the bloat and not the fat or citric acid.

PS - the role of saponins has been widely studied in alfalfa bloat in cattle and has been largely discounted as a contributing factor.

[slistoe]

claybuster your whole post is based on supposition that is not even supportable past a modicum of critical analysis. What role does natural selection play in your results as opposed to nutrition? What is the exact composition of nutrition in a wild canine? The scats I observe are anything but carnivore. It seems the lady from the University of Alberta who spent the summer analyzing coyote poop thinks they are more omnivores because the recommendation to keep coyotes out of your yard in urban areas was not to close up the garbage and lock up your small animals - it was to clean up the fallen fruit from the trees. Abady is not practicing science, he is playing to and creating misconceptions.

[ezzy333]

claybuster your whole post is based on supposition that is not even supportable past a modicum of critical analysis. What role does natural selection play in your results as opposed to nutrition? What is the exact composition of nutrition in a wild canine? The scats I observe are anything but carnivore. It seems the lady from the University of Alberta who spent the summer analyzing coyote poop thinks they are more omnivores because the recommendation to keep coyotes out of your yard in urban areas was not to close up the garbage and lock up your small animals - it was to clean up the fallen fruit from the trees. Abady is not practicing science, he is playing to and creating misconceptions.

He was trying to sell his dogfood when he wrote that. The food is good enough I don't think he needed to make all of the claims that can't be supported in my opinion. Much of it just doesn't make sense to people who have done the research to see what our dogs need to be healthy. When he comes up with the dogfood shaping the bones so a dogs hips are always perfect bothers me plus his idea that a dog should only eat raw meat just isn't what happens even in nature. I do think you can make the case that meat produces less gas than some plant sources but that in no way says a dog shouldn't have some of each either or it will bloat.. He made too many claims that just don't compute. But there always will be a few that will accept something without really investigating it with an open mind. Thats where a company like his and other small speciality type feed companies seem to fit into the overall picture.

JMO
Ezzy

[Ayres]

Now you are taking my quotes clearly out of context.

First of all, I didn't take your quotes out of context. I took them verbatim, and in the order and sentence structure that you posted them.

This was a response to Ezzy saying basically a dog had a .57% chance of experiencing bloat. As I stated, and you stated that is not the case, .57% refers to the percentage of dogs hospitalized specifically in veterinary teaching hospitals. This is not the rate of occurrence. Clarify how I am misleading.

Ezzy posted, basically, that he believed the 0.57% overall occurrence rate was significantly low enough to not warrant a panic. You retorted that it wasn't right for Ezzy to use the 0.57% figure because that wasn't the "overall occurrence rate." What you apparently failed to understand, though, is that if we include the number of dogs that weren't admitted for anything in the denominator of the equation, then the "overall occurrence rate" is actually much less than even 0.57%. That still falls in line with what Ezzy was saying.

No you can not conclude that 1 in every 30 Irish setters will get bloat, but you can say that was the rate of occurrence in their study, and I used the Irish Setter because Ezzy stated this was mostly limited to non sporting breeds. We also know the Weimaraner, and Vizsla have higher rates of occurrence, clearly showing that it also effects sporting breeds.

So let me get this straight... you dispute the 0.57% figure because it doesn't take into account the large population of dogs that were not admitted to a veterinarian hospital for anything. Then you want to use the figure for Irish Setters, when the sample of Irish Setters included just 219 dogs, all of which were admitted to a veterinarian hospital for something, over a 20+ year time period? That, sir, is skewing what this study is actually reporting in order to fit your agenda.

Also, the link you provided contained no data for Weimaraners and Vizslas. So nothing was clearly shown regarding whether or not they are high risk breeds, like the Great Dane or Irish Setter. However, I didn't see where anyone disputed that bloat can affect sporting breed dogs in the first place, just the distinction that the Irish Setter is specifically a high risk breed.

When the plague hit Europe, it didn't kill everyone, or a majority, but it was still a problem. Also note Sars didn't wipe out China, so that most likely wasn't a serious issue?

Are you seriously trying tn analogize bloat to the plague or to SARS? Please remember, when the plague hit Europe and when SARS hit China those diseases were sudden outbreaks with no known medical treatments. Bloat is something different entirely. This is simply another scare tactic.

Your dismissal of it being the #2 cause of death shows your clear bias. The absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence. I will put some time into finding the source of the stat, but with the frequency of its use, and the level of expertise of those using it, give it a strong possibility of being accurate.

I'm biased because I tend to think for myself? That's laughable. Also, when you say "the absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence" you fail to understand that I'm not the one making the assertion. You made the assertion that bloat is the #2 cause of death in dogs. You have no evidence to support the claim. You can't make an assertion, without evidence of its proof, and then require me to disprove it with evidence before allowing me to abstain from believing it. All you have, from your admission, is your belief that there's a strong possibility of the statement being accurate based upon the frequency of its use and the level of expertise of those using it. Please excuse me if I fail to follow your logic on that one.

Do yourself a favor and conduct a study for yourself based on what you just posted. Pick ANY political topic, and then ask ten right-wingers what they think about it and then ask 10 left-wingers what they think about it. My bet is that you'll then have two different and conflicting stories, each frequently cited (10 times a piece), coming from people with a high level of expertise in politics. See where I'm going here?

Maybe some people dismissing the notion that bloat is serious don't understand that risk in the study is ONE YEAR RISK:

"The cumulative lifetime incidence was estimated from the annual incidence rate. Assuming that in this breed the annual incidence rate of bloat is 2.2%, and the average life span is 12 years, the cumulative lifetime incidence rate for Irish Setters is estimated to be approximately 23.2%. Thus, these data predict that if all Irish Setters survived to age 12, almost 1 out of every 4 would bloat"

Oh come on! First of all, why can't we simply get a link to the study itself rather than these uncited clips and quotes? Second, if you really think that an incidence rate of bloat annually at 2.2% of the Irish Setter's admissions to a vet hospital equates to a 23.2% risk of bloat for each dog that survives to age 12, then you also have to believe that the other 97.8% of ailments reported annually will equate to a 1,031.35% risk that those ailments will occur in each dog that survives to age 12. The only problem is that a dog can't die more than once. And what about the dogs that are perfectly healthy and were never admitted to the vet hospital? They must have dodged about eleven hundred bullets!

[mcbosco]

I would but some of these pieces are PDF's and there is no link. You have to cut and paste. Listen you go back to la la land and pretend bloat isn't a problem. Not one person suggested that you walk around paranoid about bloat every single day, rather you take the risk under consideration. The cost to treat bloat where I live if surgery is performed is about $5,000, plus the dog is almost certain to bloat again. Several, 5 or 6, of the breeds we love here are at risk from 2 times the average to 20 times the average in the case of Weimeraners.

You can make the decision yourself, this is still afterall America. A raw supermarket egg costs about 8- 10 cents and a couple tablespoons of yogurt or canned food costs about the same. Proper table scraps and meat trimming are essentially free.

You weigh the risk/reward, umm lemme see spend a few extra bucks a year to mitigate the risk of a huge vet bill or death and the certain risk of another big vet bill or death or roll the dice. Not to mention the other benefits of feeding a more appropriate and humane diet.

If you have managed to walk between the rain drops, I am happy, but I view this whole issue as risk management with nothing but upside on about a dozen fronts.

[slistoe]

If you were really reading the study to reduce risk to your dog then you would not be feeding Abady food. Adding something onto the dry food represents a 30% decline in risk of bloat (although I have yet to see that number, or any number in this regard, put forth by the authors of the study) and feeding a food with fat in the first four ingredients carries a 170% increase in risk. (I hope I remembered the numbers right - I know I remembered the principle of the numbers right).

[mcbosco]

Abady is NOT a kibble food, and I have researched bloat risk with several breeders that have used it for years and years as have I, and I put those numbers up before and again below some just wont look at the facts, thats all.

"STUDY RECOMMENDATIONS * Feed two or more meals a day * Feed no more than one cup per 33 pounds of body weight per meal when feeding two meals a day * Feed an energy-dense diet, to reduce volume, but avoid a diet where a high amount of calories are from fats. * Feed a variety of different food types regularly. The inclusion of human foods in a primarily dry dog food diet was associated with a 59 percent decreased risk of GDV while inclusion of canned pet foods was associated with a 28 percent decreased risk * When feeding dry food, also include foods with sufficient amounts of meats and meat meals, for example: beef, lamb, poultry, and fish. * Feed a food with larger particles, and include larger pieces of meat to the diet. * Avoid moistening dry foods • If your dog eats rapidly, find ways to try to reduce his speed of eating * Avoid raising the food bowl - place it at ground level * Try to minimize stress for your dog. Stressful events have been reported to be precipitating factors in GDV occurrence. * Restrict vigorous exercise one hour before and two hours after meals. * When you are not in close proximity to your dog, use a baby monitor to alert you if your dog is in distress. * Learn to recognize signs of GDV, which include pacing and restlessness, head turning to look at the abdomen, distention of the abdomen, rapid shallow breathing, nonproductive attempts at vomiting, and salivation. These symptoms can progress rapidly to shock and death.

Emily K. Hamlyn, Boston University School of Medicine New Study on Bloat in Large Breed Dogs"

[slistoe]

I'm sorry, but the word kibble simply does not show up in that quote. It used the word dry. Is Abady a dry food?
Did Boston U do a study of their own, are they reprinting the recommendations directly from Purdue, or is this an interpretation by someone not involved with the study? I ask because it seems strange that they should feel compelled to put hard numbers to those two items when Purdue had verifiable #'s for the increase in risk for many of the other risk factors. Incomplete data smacks of an agenda. I am also unsure if I am to put the canned food on the dry food, or simply include some meals of canned food on a regular basis with the occasional meal of human food?

[claybuster_aa]

From the website:

Mr. Abady explains part of the process of bloat formation as follows: water mixes with the saponins in the feed, the mixture is then agitated in the dog's stomach during exercise creating a sudsy foam. The foam envelops the feed, trapping the gasses that are normally produced by the fermentation of the ration and contained in tiny bubbles of liquid dispersed throughout the feed. Because these gasses are trapped by the foam, rather than being free to escape via the normal oral and rectal routes, the mass of ingested feed will continue to expand until it crushes and cuts off circulation to the major organs. The dog then collapses from the pain and buildup of toxic metabolites. From empirical observations veterinarians instituted the practices of feeding dogs several smaller meals a day (instead of one large one), of curtailing the intake of water after feeding, and of restricting exercise directly after feeding. Although the restriction of water at meal time interferes with the animal's ability to break down and utilize feed, the alternative would be to accept a higher risk of bloat.

[mcbosco]

Let me ask something, why do you think I have an agenda. I have no commercial interests whatsoever. And the answer to your question is that from a technical standpoint Abady granular would not be consider a dry food. You can safely assume that every "dry" food fed in that study was kibble.

[ezzy333]

Abady is NOT a kibble food, and I have researched bloat risk with several breeders that have used it for years and years as have I, and I put those numbers up before and again below some just wont look at the facts, thats all.

Pro Plan, Diamond, and 1000 other brands are kibble, and I have researched bloat risk with hundreds of breeders that have used them for years as I have, and I have put those numbers up before and it seems some just won't look at the research, thats all. And over the past few days you have also heard from many people pointing out the errors of your interuptation of the Purdue study that indicates bloat is extremely rare in actuality but you have never once waivered in repeating the same figures and worse yet have not learned a thing that might help you in the future. Steve and Slistoe have spent considerable time and effort in trying to explain where you are making your mistake, which is not uncommon, and it seems you just can't accept that you are misinturpreting the data presented. This is not uncommon but is still sad. I think everytime that we would put out results of feeding test there were always a few that either were not capable of reading them correctly or maybe just didn't want to, but it was always the same story. The Purdue study you are fond of quoting from was just that, a study. They published some results, but drew no conclusions, which they couldn't. One study does not a proven conclusion make. If it was to be used to show conclusive evidence it would have to be replicated at least once and preferably more, with idenical or very simular results being shown to be considered any type of proof. But it does give some very interesting info on the subject and we should consider those results in dealing with or trying to prevent bloat even though it is very rare. And if you have a breed that falls into the physical characteristics that seem to make those dogs more susceptible to it you should try to follow the recommendations that have been accepted as aiding greatly. Because it is so rare does not make it any less serious. It can and does kill. I have had to deal with other animals that bloat on an almost common basis and it needs to be taken seriously but it does not need to be feared to the extent that you are afraid to leave a dog alone or that your dog is just a time bomb waiting to explode.


Most of us have never seen a dog bloat and probably never will but do be aware it can happen and some easy common sense precautions can be taken to lessen the chance of it greatly..

Ezzy

[ezzy333]

From the website:

Mr. Abady explains part of the process of bloat formation as follows: water mixes with the saponins in the feed, the mixture is then agitated in the dog's stomach during exercise creating a sudsy foam. The foam envelops the feed, trapping the gasses that are normally produced by the fermentation of the ration and contained in tiny bubbles of liquid dispersed throughout the feed. Because these gasses are trapped by the foam, rather than being free to escape via the normal oral and rectal routes, the mass of ingested feed will continue to expand until it crushes and cuts off circulation to the major organs. The dog then collapses from the pain and buildup of toxic metabolites. From empirical observations veterinarians instituted the practices of feeding dogs several smaller meals a day (instead of one large one), of curtailing the intake of water after feeding, and of restricting exercise directly after feeding. Although the restriction of water at meal time interferes with the animal's ability to break down and utilize feed, the alternative would be to accept a higher risk of bloat.

This statement has some truth I am sure but also goes beyond fact as we know it and states his theory. That being said though, the glowing ommission that he just can't fit into this theory is that some physical characteristics seem to be a, if not the, major factor in the chance of bloat.

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

Ezzy, I totally agree with you, but this is not a forum for Jack Russells, rather for a group of dogs that have higher risks and many if not all of those physical charateristics. There is no question that physical characteristics play a role. Keep in mind Abady bred Bouviers as well as GSD's so his research and food design was originally influenced by malities associated with those breeds. The market for his granular food has expanded since then for other reasons.

No one ever denied there are other factors but food and meal timing are the only risk factors that you can totally control.

[ezzy333]

Ezzy, I totally agree with you, but this is not a forum for Jack Russells, rather for a group of dogs that have higher risks and many if not all of those physical charateristics. There is no question that physical characteristics play a role. Keep in mind Abady bred Bouviers as well as GSD's so his research and food design was originally influenced by malities associated with those breeds. The market for his granular food has expanded since then for other reasons.

No one ever denied there are other factors but food and meal timing are the only risk factors that you can totally control.

You also should keep in mind that Robt. Abady left the common knowledge of nutrition which he was apart of and decided to make dog food and to use the dreaded word you throw around as bad, he did it for profit. But like I said he never could really make his theorys fit with all we knew then and still today. But he had to keep writing as he was the advertising department for his venture. I don't think anyone today is saying he was wrong about everything but he sure wasn't right about everything either. What he was, was a educated good salesman that worked hard to manufacture as well as promote an alternative niche type of feedingprogram and the feed to fulfil it. He did just that and was successful. The relatively few people who could afford the time and expense have done well with his feed, but to this day there is no evidence that the dogs are stronger, healthier, or live longer because they were fed his food.

I think you did a fine job of telling us about his feed but Claybuster had already done that long before you got here. And you may have actually convinced a few people to try it. But this continued attack on all other feed companies and people who use their products plus the repeated and repeated again reasons that Abady is so superior has alienated far more people that you ever attracted. There is a time to let it go and do whatever you like and not to sufficate the rest of us with the same diatribe over and over. And I think the rest of us will do the same.

[mcbosco]

who is Jack Abady,

[claybuster_aa]

Abady is not practicing science, he is playing to and creating misconceptions.

I think the Abady concept is spot on. If you're a bio-chemist, have a lab and start breaking it down to the molecule, and come up with a better scientific explanation, I'll listen. I think he's done more for helping animals than you know of, and that would include saving one particular breed from becoming extinct. He was somewhat on the eccentric side from what I understand but very caring for animals and dedicated to helping them.

[claybuster_aa]

who is Jack Abady,

That was his father.

[claybuster_aa]

..repeated and repeated again reasons that Abady is so superior has alienated far more people that you ever attracted.

I think there is a lot of truth to that statement. People get turned off easily when it comes to that I think. I try not to suggest it to anyone to try it unless it seems like they're in dire straits. You remember the rat poison dog, the guy was at his wits end. Never did hear back from him...hope that dog pulled through and had a complete turn around.

I've read just about everything there is to read off the website, and I have a copy of his book, "The State of Animal Nutrition" which I have also read. It really is a great product they sell, but I understand it is not for everyone and some things are best left that way. Abady will tell you, there simply isn't enough raw materials to go around to feed all dogs properly. If everyone in this country suddenly decided to feed their dogs very, very well, that would created a problem with ingredients. Commercial omnivore nutrition has made pet ownership affordable to most all in this country, and that has not really been a blessing or doing any justice on the animal. Pressure on breeders and puppy mills to pump out dogs is not good. It leads to short cuts...and that is also I think a contributing factor to some problems that face dogs today.

[live4point]

Ever had your dog stop while hunting to chow down on a little field corn,soybeans,wheat,or any other grains? Ever had your dog eat the green beans,carrots,sweet corn or anything else in your garden? I haven't.But I have had my dogs stop to chew on a dead rabbit or deer while out hunting.The good lord gave animals the desire to eat what was intended for them,and they are attracted to meat,not grains and produce.The dog food companies just trick the dog by mixing in some animal fat with the grain products to get the dog to to eat it.It should be no surprise that this diet leads to health issues.

[birddogger]

Ever had your dog stop while hunting to chow down on a little field corn,soybeans,wheat,or any other grains? Ever had your dog eat the green beans,carrots,sweet corn or anything else in your garden? I haven't.But I have had my dogs stop to chew on a dead rabbit or deer while out hunting.The good lord gave animals the desire to eat what was intended for them,and they are attracted to meat,not grains and produce.The dog food companies just trick the dog by mixing in some animal fat with the grain products to get the dog to to eat it.It should be no surprise that this diet leads to health issues.

My dogs don't eat it, they roll in it, with the exception of horse and cow manure. They eat the grain in it and then roll in it. Also, I just can't understand why, in 50 yrs or so, I have never seen bloat or any of these other health issues. I did have a couple of dogs that got parvo before vaccinations for it were available and when I was a young boy, we had one dog that had cancer.

Charlie

[wems2371]

Ever had your dog stop while hunting to chow down on a little field corn,soybeans,wheat,or any other grains? Ever had your dog eat the green beans,carrots,sweet corn or anything else in your garden? I haven't.But I have had my dogs stop to chew on a dead rabbit or deer while out hunting.The good lord gave animals the desire to eat what was intended for them,and they are attracted to meat,not grains and produce.The dog food companies just trick the dog by mixing in some animal fat with the grain products to get the dog to to eat it.It should be no surprise that this diet leads to health issues.

Really, there are a lot of dogs that will clean out a garden. Just give it a google. My sisters is one of them. I can't remember what his favorite is, but she can't have him off leash, at a friends house, just for that reason. My pups favorite treat right now, is to try to eat the grain out of my 16hh TWH's pan as he is eating. Before I knew they could be toxic, my lab would get some grapes everytime I had some. She absolutely loved them. My dogs will roll on dead things as well, but have yet to eat any. Maybe it depends on the amount of decomp/freshness. As far as dogs desiring to eat what was intended for them, horse/cat/rabbit/pigeon poop all rate high with every dog I've ever had...and all of those pooping animals are eating grain/plant based diets...even the cat who chooses to eat catfood vs mousing. Don't think anything is ever as cut-and-dry as some would like us to believe.

[mcbosco]

This clearly is not from the Perdue Study but it pretty much sums why I believe overt tinkering and commercial rationalization with a process devised over hundreds of thousands of years is misguided.

"The term unknown unknown refers to circumstances or outcomes that were not conceived of by an observer at a given point in time. The meaning of the term becomes more clear when it is contrasted with the known unknown, which refers to circumstances or outcomes that are known to be possible, but it is unknown whether or not they will be realized. The term is used in project planning and decision analysis to explain that any model of the future can only be informed by information that is currently available to the observer and, as such, faces substantial limitations and unknown risk"

There is a concept in statistics called "the fat tail" and basically it means there are circumstances where risk is far greater then we perceive or will allow ourselves to perceive.

These are risks are only remote when it happens to someone else.

[live4point]

There will always be exceptions to the rule.there are a few dogs out there that surf and tapdance too.If dogs were naturally attracted to grains,you wouldn't come upon these starving dogs that people dump in the country,they would be living the good life eating out of the corn fields.

[ezzy333]

There will always be exceptions to the rule.there are a few dogs out there that surf and tapdance too.If dogs were naturally attracted to grains,you wouldn't come upon these starving dogs that people dump in the country,they would be living the good life eating out of the corn fields.

Listen for just a moment to what people are telling you that probably have a lot more experience than you do. I date back to the days before there was a manufactured dog food and the farm dogs did spend a lot of time in the corn crib. Mine still bring ears to the yard and lay there and eat the corn off of the cob. The dogs do have to be kept out of the garden as they love the fresh fruit and also some of the vegetables they can pull off and eat. I have never seen a dog that doesn't dive into most kinds of manure and I do think a hungry dog would eat the roadkill you speak of but a normal dog is much more interested in rolling in it if it has rotted enough to be perfume to their noses. We started manufacturing dog food as a result of our owners and customers dogs eating the pig feed, especially the baby pig feed. Many actually bought a creep feed for their dogs in the winter time.

Not a one of us are telling you this just to argue with you but are relaying the facts of our own and many many other people to you. The health issues you spek of just doesn't hold water. You, I or no one else can look at a dog or study its health charts over the years and tell what kind of diet the dog has lived on. Wish it was that simple. I like what has already been expressed here have had many many dogs over the years of my own plus others I boarded on a continueous basis for people from the city that had no place to keep their hunting dogs and I am yet to see a case of bloat or know anyone personally that has either. I have had one dog with cancer over the past sixty years, have never had a feed allergy of any kind, and have never taken a dog to the vet for a diet related health event. My dogs live just as healthy as yours and live as long and I have a lot fewer problems than most do it seems. Maybe I just have been lucky and if that is the case I am extremely thankful.

All of this said, I am happy you like to feed your dog however you like, but you are just wasting your time trying to tell 95% or better of the people that own and care for dogs that what we feed our dogs is inferior to what you are. I an I'm sure most people would listen and be interested if you could only show some actual results of dogs being healthier, living longer, performing better in the field or in trials, or that you are spending a lot less money and time feeding the way you do. Today, you or no one else has ever been able to show us that. Thats why most of us are not trying to tell you to feed like we do as I think we realize you can feed the way you like and in most cases at least your dog is going to be healthy and happy in your home or in the field.

Once again, I hope you listen and don't think anyone is telling you to change. But just remember, what we are doing has been tested and proved to be a very good way to feed your dog if you want the dog to be in the best health and condition for all of the usual things a dog does plus run for hours in a trial or sit for hours ,wet in the duck blind. We have tried it and it works and I hope your way works just as well.

Ezzy

[live4point]

And yours is just another OPINION.

[ezzy333]

You are right only I have the evidence that says it's right. 43 years working with researching, formulating, manufacturing, marketing and being responsible for the QC and regulatory compliance plus 60 years of using, and thousands of healthy dogs that are my evidence.. Thats how I formed my opinion.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

Good one live4point. Would you care to elaborate on the background on which your opinion has been formed? A base belief in voodoo science?

[live4point]

Heck,I feed Diamond,I'm not mixing up some special feed.Like most people I don't have the time for it.But for people to try and get others to believe that a dog would rather eat an ear of corn over a steak and that it better for them is a bunch of bull,and to try and tell people that the reason all the grain and otherwise waste products in the feed is the very best thing for a dog is bull also.It's the very best thing for a feed companies bank account,as the ingredients are cheap.And working for a dog food company for years might make a guy a little biased in his opinions in my book.Like I said before,if some of your theories were correct,a dog dumped in the country wouldn't starve to death,they would go around eating out of the fields and graze with the deer.We know that doesn't happen.But dump that same dog behind a butcher shop,and if the butcher will throw his scraps out for the dog,it will survive just fine.

[ezzy333]

Heck,I feed Diamond,I'm not mixing up some special feed.Like most people I don't have the time for it.But for people to try and get others to believe that a dog would rather eat an ear of corn over a steak and that it better for them is a bunch of bull,and to try and tell people that the reason all the grain and otherwise waste products in the feed is the very best thing for a dog is bull also.It's the very best thing for a feed companies bank account,as the ingredients are cheap.And working for a dog food company for years might make a guy a little biased in his opinions in my book.Like I said before,if some of your theories were correct,a dog dumped in the country wouldn't starve to death,they would go around eating out of the fields and graze with the deer.We know that doesn't happen.But dump that same dog behind a butcher shop,and if the butcher will throw his scraps out for the dog,it will survive just fine.

Good point. I have never seen a dog dumped in the country starve to death and I doubt if you have. And we are not the ones telling anybody how to feed their dog. I just take offense I guess when someone tries to tell me what we are doing is all wrong. I can't do it on here but I would love to tell you why we use the ingredients we do and what they do for your dog. There is not a single ingredient used that isn't there for a purpose.

And I can see where you might think I was bias but it might help if you knew I worked for a non-profit co-op that was owned by the customers so there was no other purpose other than produce the best feed possible and keep the cost as reasonable as possible.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

No one has tried to say that a dog would rather eat a cob of corn than a beef steak. All I have been pointing out on some of these threads is that corn, processed properly, is not bad for your dog. It contains readily accessible essential nutrients for your dog. There is absolutely no evidence to show that a dog obtaining the required nutrient profile from a mix of feeds is going to be any worse off or better off than a dog obtaining the required nutrient profile from pedominantly meat.
In this particular thread I have never said once that bloat was not a serious problem for dogs suffering from it, nor that it is a possibility that a dog may experience it, but rather that the voodoo science opinions which are being expressed on here to promote a particular style or type of diet are just that, voodoo science, and that those practicing such are incapable of reasoned thought when looking at the actual information they are trying to distort for their own purpose - sort of like the rather ludicrous assertion of dogs starving to death in the country.

[kumate]

I have never had a dog with bloat and have had quite a few over the years. My last gsp died of lymphoma. I feed my newest gsp a 100% raw diet along with our 5lb chihuahua because i want the very best for them. Since swithching to raw aprox 4mths i have noticed a increased energy and lighter body weight while appearing to have more muscle, the coat is improved but most noticeable in the chi, stool volume is about 25% of kibble. Feeding raw is definately more time consuming although not overly so. It costs me aprox 50-60 per mth for the 52 lb gsp hes small and the 5 lb chi. I prev fed the gsp exceed. I also have 2 apbt's and they get exceed as i cannot afford to feed them raw along with the hassle. Most of the dogfood manufacturers seem to tout meat, chicken, lamb etc as there selling points but the main ingredient usually ends up being corn or grain of somesort. I have never seen any manufacturer market the food as made up of mostly real wholesome corn even if it is. Most seem to promote the inclusion or amount of meat/bone as a marketing point. As in everything there are camps on both sides, but the superiority of a raw fresh diet made up of meat bone organs free of presevatives and additives etc. for the health and longetivity of the dog is hard to argue. The down side is prep time and cost which is what i hear most as a negative and much deserved. This just my oppinion and the way i see it

Jerry

[slistoe]

I have never seen any manufacturer market the food as made up of mostly real wholesome corn even if it is. Most seem to promote the inclusion or amount of meat/bone as a marketing point.

Marketing is what marketing is. You play to the common perception, and if the common perception isn't good for you then you work at creating a new perception. There is no doubt that a purely vegetable diet would be very difficult for dogs. They are not vegetarian animals, but neither are they as strictly carnivores as some folks would like to make out. Even mink and fox have vegetable matter added to their feed to maximize nutrition intake. When I was ranching fur it actually would have been easier and cheaper for me to make an all meat ration. Simple fact is that I did the work because the animals did better on the mixed ration.

but the superiority of a raw fresh diet made up of meat bone organs free of presevatives and additives etc. for the health and longetivity of the dog is hard to argue.

Actually, it is pretty easy to argue. Where is the evidence that the longevity of dogs is increased by feeding as you say. It simply does not exist. It is pure speculation.

[claybuster_aa]

The best research? Saponin is similar in structure to snake venom - therefore it must be a toxin. Come on.

Saponin
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Chemical structure of the saponin solanineSaponins are a class of chemical compounds, one of many secondary metabolites found in natural sources, with saponins found in particular abundance in various plant species. Specifically, they are amphipathic glycosides grouped phenomenologically by the soap-like foaming they produce when shaken in aqueous solutions, and structurally by their being composed of one or more hydrophilic glycoside moieties combined with a lipophilic triterpene derivative.[1][2] A ready and therapeutically relevant example is the cardio-active agent digoxin, from common foxglove.

Role in plant ecology and impact on animal foraging
In plants, saponins may serve as anti-feedants,[2][4] and to protect the plant against microbes and fungi.[citation needed] Some plant saponins (e.g. from oat and spinach) may enhance nutrient absorption and aid in animal digestion. However, saponins are often bitter to taste, and so can reduce plant palatability (e.g., in livestock feeds), or even imbue them with life-threatening animal toxicity.[4] Data make clear that some saponins are toxic to cold-blooded organisms and insects at particular concentrations.[4] There is a need for further research to define the roles of these natural products in their host organisms—which have been described as "poorly understood" to date.[

Note the part that says life-threatening animal toxity?

Why is that people think what Abady states about their research is marketing and for profit generating only? I think many also would view his work in dedication to helping the animals rather than marketing for profit.
I don’t think he was a poor man going into the business and funded his own company and research. I guess it’s easy to think it is all nonsense and marketing, but I think they’re letting you know what the other folks don’t want you to know or understand when it comes to ingredients and nutrition.

[slistoe]

I read that on wikipedia and was wondering when a bright bulb would bring it up. Did you check the reference on it? It is toxic to cold blooded animals and insects. Extrapolating that to dogs, when no toxic effects are known to any class of mammals despite extensive study, is useless.
By the way, did you read the part about some plant saponins aiding in animal digestion and nutrient absorbtion? Pretty nasty stuff.

[claybuster_aa]

I read that on wikipedia and was wondering when a bright bulb would bring it up. Did you check the reference on it? It is toxic to cold blooded animals and insects. Extrapolating that to dogs, when no toxic effects are known to any class of mammals despite extensive study, is useless.
By the way, did you read the part about some plant saponins aiding in animal digestion and nutrient absorbtion? Pretty nasty stuff.

...and toxins are great for dogs I suppose.

Industry-connected scientists have advanced a number of theories as to the cause of bloat over the years, including the theory that bloat is caused by genetic factors. More recently, however, these scientists have moved away from the genetic explanation and now believe that bloat may be the result of gulping atmospheric air. They even seem to imply that bloat may be a punishment for gluttony. This theory, like the genetic theory, has no scientific merit, since dogs naturally gulp their feed (particularly if fed chunks of raw meat) and do not develop bloat. Air is also mobile, it will not accumulate as long as there is nothing preventing its escape. If air did indeed accumulate inside the stomach, its pressure would be greater than that of the air entering the stomach and it would escape. It is no more possible to cause bloat by gulping atmospheric air than it is possible to inflate a balloon by merely holding open its end. If gluttony were indeed a factor, then a reduction in the level of flavor enhancers contained in some feeds (thereby reducing their palatability), would discourage ravenous eating. Obviously, the answer lies elsewhere.

[ezzy333]

Yes toxins can be good depending what you are trying to accomplish. But the toxic part to cold blooded animals is what lets us use some of them for insecticides and yet they show no toxic effect to us or our dogs.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

There really isn't a logical thought process in your head is there claybuster. Did you put that second quote on your post because there was something there that you thought anyone should take seriously?
Here is the information you forgot to include from the page you garnered that quote from:
"Sadly, the Abady Company has had to stand by and watch veterinarians promoting, recommending, and actively selling products that contain soybean meal, beet pulp, and other undesirable ingredients. Often times the Abady Company must stand by as superbly healthy dogs that have been fed Abady for months, or years, are switched to the products the veterinarians are promoting, based on the condition of the animal's stool at that particular moment....
Abady feeds are the finest in the marketplace, based on the content and quantity of superior ingredients included in their formulas, and Abady's unique nutrient-sparing method of processing helps insure that what is included in the formula is useable by the dog.

The Abady Company does not market to veterinarians at this time, therefore many veterinarians are unaware of the excellence of Abady products and their superiority to mass-produced, commercial, "premium" feeds. Unfortunately, most veterinarians' knowledge of Abady products is obtained from the salesmen who sell them products manufactured by Abady's competitors.

Your veterinarian may not know much about the Abady formulas. Therefore, when you want information about Abady products (rather than opinions filtered through the sales agents of competing firms), or straight talk about animal nutrition, come directly to the company whose products are on the cutting edge of research, the company that incorporates in its feeds the latest advances in animal nutrition, and uses only the highest quality appropriate ingredients. Come to the company that depends on your growing knowledge and awareness of the nutritional needs of dogs, not on your lack of awareness or deliberately fostered ignorance: The Robert Abady Dog Food Company."

Yes, after innumerable paragraphs of supposition, outright falsehoods and fear mongering they hit you with the sales pitch.

[kumate]

I stated this was just my oppinion and as far as speculation these were my obsevations after switching from kibble to a raw diet. II is my hope that maybe someone else may try it as i did and benefit. One does not have to worry about a less than honest marketing as i have no commercial interest. Manufacturers cont to tout the meat /bone content even when corn and grain may be the main ingredient. I call this deceptive you call it marketing, the indians would say white man speak with fork tongue.

Jerry

[claybuster_aa]

Yes, after innumerable paragraphs of supposition, outright falsehoods and fear mongering they hit you with the sales pitch.

Outright falsehoods...sounds like they should be sued for spreading lies. I wonder why thay hasn't been done yet? Maybe because none can disprove what they say. You can claim they are spreading lies, but science and research cannot disprove what they claim.

[ezzy333]

Yes, after innumerable paragraphs of supposition, outright falsehoods and fear mongering they hit you with the sales pitch.

Outright falsehoods...sounds like they should be sued for spreading lies. I wonder why thay hasn't been done yet? Maybe because none can disprove what they say. You can claim they are spreading lies, but science and research cannot disprove what they claim.

and the exact same statement applies from the other side.

Manufacturers cont to tout the meat /bone content even when corn and grain may be the main ingredient. I call this deceptive you call it marketing,

You need to rethink this staement too for it isn't true if you are thinking that you can't use the meat resources that are included in your marketing just because you have corn in the feed. We don't make feed based on a single ingredient but raher the balance needed to produce a abalanced diet and has the stated protein, fat, and other guaranteed levels of nutrition in it. Thats what Abady does also. So one is no different than the other in what they are rrquired to do.

EZzzy

[slistoe]

Yes, after innumerable paragraphs of supposition, outright falsehoods and fear mongering they hit you with the sales pitch.

Outright falsehoods...sounds like they should be sued for spreading lies. I wonder why thay hasn't been done yet? Maybe because none can disprove what they say. You can claim they are spreading lies, but science and research cannot disprove what they claim.

And they cannot prove that what they are saying is right. In fact, as has been shown numerous times, there cannot be a logical argument made that it may be right given the current knowledge base.

[claybuster_aa]

And they cannot prove that what they are saying is right. In fact, as has been shown numerous times, there cannot be a logical argument made that it may be right given the current knowledge base.

We are all entitled to our opinions. See, I feel the exact same way in regards to what you feed as you feel toward Abady.
Orijen White Paper is nothing but a marketing, all deceit and falsehoods. And when we see Marigold Flowers and Dandelions after their big carnivore spiel in the White Paper, you know they are full of BS and deceit.

[slistoe]

I don't feed Orijen. Too expensive for no benefit in the feeding tests I did with my dogs. Now I can honestly make a recommendation to my customers who inquire about it. Some hard data to back up my opinion.
But that really is funny - Orijen is all about marketing and Abady isn't.

[CherrystoneWeims]

Ezzy,

I have known of multiple dogs bloating. They were not all Weimaraners. Many were but I have also seen Springer Spaniels, Whippets, Greyhounds, Irish Wolfhounds, and GSP's.......... I have personally have witnessed Weimaraners, Springers, whippets, and GSP's that were bloating.........

Research is now showing that a raw diet decreases the incidence of bloat. The reason is that kibble takes longer to digest whereas raw is much easier to digest.

On the other hand many of you here need to check out coyote, fox, wolf, and feral dog scat. In it you will find undigested SEEDS. LOL I actually have a fox that hangs around and have seen plenty of berry seeds in its scat. The canine is actually an omnivore.

Beet pulp actually DOES serve a purpose in a dog's diet. It can help to restore the natural flora of the gut and firm up the stool. I've given it to dogs after they have undergone a dietary upset and been on antibiotics with the stool still being soupy after treatment. The beet pulp helped to firm them back up.

[ezzy333]

Pam,

That is interesting that you have witnessed so many dogs that have bloated. What was determined to be the cause and what was the outcome? All that I have read have said it is often fatal so did you find that to be true? I know that severe bloating can cause so much pressure the animal just can't breath and also has problems with the heart. But I have never seen it in a dog. When we had cows bloat which was very common in the spring when they were put on legume pasture to have problems an I actually had to use a knife to puncture the stomach a couple of times to relief the pressure.

I still am amazed about the numbers and breeds you have seen as you are the first person I have ever met that has witnessed more than one and that was just one person. And when you see the research and see how few dogs of the susceptical breeds that actually have a problem it is even more astonding that all of the breeds that just don't have the problem that you have seen.

I can see where a raw diet might lessen the time frame of digestion in dogs but it is just the opposite in most animals that I have heard f including humans, but I have never seen any research done on digestive times in dogs, but inspite of time most of the cases in dogs seems to be from twisted stomach and diet plays no part in that if you are taking normal precautions by waiting before and after exercise. Sure would like to hear more from you as to cause and severity and any or all of the common simularities of diet ,exercise, or anything else we could put our hands on in a search of what really happens and what is needed when and if it occurs.

Ezzy

[CherrystoneWeims]

Ezzy,

You would be amazed at the numbers of dogs that bloat. I have known of whole lines of Weimaraners that from generation to generation the dogs have bloated. In my pedigree research I have known great-grandfather, grandfather, father, and sons that bloat.

I used to have the Whippet that bloated. One morning I was getting my son ready to take him to school The dog had NOT been fed yet. He had been fine when I let him out first thing when we got up. About an hour later the dog started whimpering. His stomach was severely distended and tighter than a drum. Thank goodness I knew what bloat was and was able to rush him to the vet. He was sedated and tubed with success. He had not torsed. When I called his breeder to inform her that the dog had bloated her words were "Whippets don't bloat". In the next breath she told me "whippets get gas and you just have to give them Gas-X". DUH What does she think bloat is??? Ugh I KNOW what bloat is and the vet confirmed that the dog had bloated.

ANother friend's Weim was not feeling well. I was swimming my dogs at a mutual friend's house and she was there. The dog didn't look right. She was trying to vomit and couldn't. Several of us told her to take the dog immediately to the emergency clinic as we thought that the bitch was bloating. Yep sure enough she was. She was saved after having surgery and a resection. She was approx. 10 yrs old when this happened.

Years back I went to our National Specialty. One evening after showing we were all at a banquet. Thank God a few people from this one kennel had decided to not go. In the middle of dinner the manager of the hotel walked in and asked for the breeder from this kennel. One of the dogs back at the showsite was bloating and was in very bad shape. They rushed this bitch to the vet and it was touch and go for several days. She HAD torsed. She had to have quite a bit of bowel resected but they were able to save her. MOst likely it was stress induced from travel, showing, etc.

ONe evening I was at the emergency vet with a rescue dog. In walked a Springer that was bloating. This was the second time the dog had bloated and the owners knew what to look for. As far as I know the dog was saved again.

A friend's GSP bloated and was saved. It WAS atributed to the food that he was eating. I am not sure what kind of food it was though. But it was kibble. He had to have surgery.

Another friend's Weim bloated and died. She had won our National FC and National AFC the previous Dec. She was fine in the evening and when they went out in the morning to feed they found her dead. I had just seen her the previous week. Autopsy confirmed bloat and torsion. But it is not known what caused the bloat. Could it have been stress? She had just gone back into field training after having a litter of pups. Who knows!

My stud dog's brother died of bloat. The owners didn't have a clue that he was bloating and they found him dead in the morning. He had torsed. He was a very stressed dog in personality. Totally unlike my very laid back dog. Stress most likely caused him to bloat. The owners had also just moved into a new house.

A friend's Wolfhound bloated and died. He had torsed.

I could go on and on about all of the dogs that I have known who have bloated........I don't think that the numbers in the research reflect the actual amount of dogs who bloat.

If you can catch bloat in the early stages and KNOW what you are seeing - Dog looks distressed, retching without producing vomit, stomach is distended, tries to poop and can't but keeps straining, then many times the dog can be saved. But it IS a race against time. Once the stomach torses the chances of survival go way down. Blood supply is cut off to the section that is flipped and it immediately starts to die off. What kills the dog at this point is that it usually goes into shock.

Once a dog has bloated he/she WILL bloat again. It is only a matter of time. If you have a dog that has bloated you should have the stomach tacked to prevent torsion. It won't prevent bloat but at least the dog won't torse.

All of these dogs were on a kibble diet. Various feeds were being used. The one at the National Specialty comes from a line that was known for having a lot of bloat. I do know what kibble they fed. LOL The breeder was in a dog food commercial with some of his dogs! When a dog gets older the chances of bloat also increases. Dogs who don't do well under duress also have a higher incidence of bloat. I have never known of a dog that is fed raw to bloat.

I do keep Gas-X or Mylecon drops on hand to give to a dog that is having stomach distension. I did learn this from the Whippet breeders. Thank goodness I haven't had to use it yet on one of my own dogs. It can buy you time to get the dog to a vet and it could help save the dog's life by buying those few minutes of time! I asked my vet about this and he suggested to keep it on hand also.

[ezzy333]

I am curious about something you are saying. You mention several times that the dog bloated and then the stomach torsed. That seems backwards to what I have always been told. A dog can bloat which is caused by a lot of gas from something the dog has eaten. And then there is bloat caused by the torsed stomach which is normally connected to physical activity and is almost always in the deep cheasted dogs. And that is the one that always kills if not surgetically correct immediately. The gas X would help relieve a dog with gas that is bloated but would have no effect on the dog with the twisted stomach.

You make it sound like a genetic problem to a greater extent than I had realized. When something is inherent to a certain breed we know that is somewhat genetic but when you say it happens in a certain family that too has to be genetic, either in some form of genetic physical characteristic that is different than the norm or some unseen weakness that is being passed down. And since this is true should we be breeding dogs from those lines? Makes me wonder.

I am sure dogs do bloat just like all animals do but most bloat is not life threatening. One of the remodies that work is keep the animal on its feet and walking if possible and get the animal to chew on something also helps relieve the gas. Any bloating animal has to get rid of the gas through one end or the other and walking and chewing helps in one way or the other.

I have seen many animals with gas that you can call bloat, and that would be correct, but for it to be serious enough to cause a problem is something I have never seen in a dog and that covers many dogs and many years in many curcumstances. Hope that continues and I see no reason it shouldn't but it is something to be aware of and be prepared to do what is necessary if it does. I always kept a sharpened steel with a trocar available for emergencies but have found it to be seldom needed, so no longer kept, if the normal precautions and remedies are understood and followed.

Ezzy