Keep weight on a GSP

dugger13 · Post by **dugger13** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:34 am

I have had a heck of a time trying to keep weight on my GSP. She is now 3.5 years old. Still hasn't "filled out". To me she looks skinny. My question is. Right now i feed her 6 cups of food a day. If she gets more, her stool gets runny. Even now, her stools are not the hardest, but manageable. I am feeding Diamond Hi energy, 24-20. I also fed here diamond performance 26-18. Both feeds had the same stools etc...

I simply cannot feed more, i think i am feeding too much already. Any suggestions, additives i can try to add to the food? I don't think i can feed more than 6 cups a day. That seems like way too much already. This is the best picture i have of her right now.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:43 am

..and you've wormed her regularly so you know that's not a problem ..

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:45 am

with the way the dog is sitting Looks fine to me

muscular and coat appears to shine and can't even see any rib linings

some people think athletic dogs look skinny any more weight and that dog will look like a house pet

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:45 am

Some dogs are naturally skinny. How is her coat & does she lack energy? Less exercise is one way to fatten them up .. but I don't recommend it.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:52 am

what food? 6 cups sounds like a lot of kibble for a dog that size to eat.

I think she does look thin, and while i dont know GSP's that well, the thin or lost hair around the eyes, lips and foreleg should be looked at.

anyway, what is she eating?

dugger13 · Post by **dugger13** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:56 am

her coat is shiny. when we hunt, she goes for about 2 hours before starting to lag around. She is not a big running dog though. stays close, within 50 yards. You can see her ribs, and backbone pretty easily. Couple more pics i have. i haven't dewormed her since she was a puppy.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:56 am

i am sorry, so you feed diamond? 6 cups is a lot, perhaps she is just not digesting it properly no matter what the stool looks like....have you tried any enzymes? they are inexpensive and totally safe, that could help her get more out of the food.

if that doesnt work i would switch foods

dugger13 · Post by **dugger13** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:58 am

what type of enzyme would i get?

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:05 am

either Prozymes or Nzymes...I prefer Nzymes, $25 would feed two of your dogs for 1 year, plus its packed with live probiotics. Prozymes is a good product too but no probiotics.

simple to use, i use 1/2 gram per day for a 90lb pounder, just sprinkle on the food.

http://www.nzymes.com/pc/viewPrd.asp?id ... dproduct=8

The prodcut is called Bac-Pac-Plus..

I buy from doggiefood.com, its a few bucks cheaper than direct from the company.

We use it on horses too.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:14 am

First thing to do is worm her. She is a little thin but sure looks healthy in every way. It's impossible to tell everything from a picture but get her wormed and then see what happens. No need to worry about adding more stuff to her dirt till the simple things are taken care of.

Ezzy

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:19 am

i haven't dewormed her since she was a puppy.

I would worm her. You can buy panacur or other such products at farm/home or feed stores that cover several types of worms. I feed my large male shorthair 3 cups a day (different food but comperable calories) so 6 seems like a lot. You'd certainly be better off economically to try a different food if these suggestions don't work.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:21 am

yeah i would get a stool sample to the vet and see if anything is in there and maybe a scraping around the eyes just to make sure

TEX-X · Post by **TEX-X** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:31 am

i was having the same problem with my pup....so i switched him to the diamond extreme athlete and i put about a tablespoon full of vegatable oil in his food....he's eating 4 cups a day... and has never looked better! shiny coat and now you can no longer see his ribs! good luck! maybe start feeding him 3 double quarter pounder cheeseburgers and 3 orders of fries from mcdonalds a day...that'll put weight on him

dugger13 · Post by **dugger13** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:33 am

postoakshorthairs wrote:
i haven't dewormed her since she was a puppy.
I would worm her. You can buy panacur or other such products at farm/home or feed stores that cover several types of worms. I feed my large male shorthair 3 cups a day (different food but comperable calories) so 6 seems like a lot. You'd certainly be better off economically to try a different food if these suggestions don't work.

That is what i am wondering. at this rate. i could go with purina pro-plan and still come ahead, or something like it. I have wormer at home. i will start worming her and see what happens in a month or so. She has always been a skinny shrimp. Looks like a bag of bones and fur to me.

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:43 am

[quotehave wormer at home. i will start worming her and see what happens in a month or so.[/quote]
If you worm her with a broad spectrum wormer over the next three days I would say, if that's the problem, you should start to notice a change in the next couple of weeks. I'll try not to get into the "this food is better than that" debate, but I had issues with stools and weight with what your feeding and had to switch eventually. It's like anything else...some do well with one thing and others don't.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:05 am

Make sure your wormer is not outdated.

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:08 pm

I too think your dog is not digesting the food well enough to gain weight. Not uncommon for a lot of working dogs. Feeding 6 cups of the high fat food i causing the sloppy stools. PROZYME or NZYMES are excellent products. PROZYME has a great special for October. 2 lb container for $36.99.

You will use only 1/4 tsp per cup of food each meal and you could cut the food amount down by half or at least by 1/3. I have seen this many times before and with adding the enzyme you will see a big difference in a month or so.

Prozyme - http://www.prozymeproducts.com/Monthly- ... _p_26.html

NZYNES Bac Pak Plus 200grams - http://www.doggiefood.com/bacpakplus200g.html

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:42 pm

Dogs have a relatively small and slow pancreas and to ask a dog to digest 6 cups of dry food of any brand is a tall order.

I would check for worms and demodectic mites just to be sure but since she has been thin for a while as you said, its probably not intestinal worms because you would have known by now.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:30 pm

Never heard of mites keeping a dog skinny. Lots of GSPs look like that around the eyes. You forgot to ask the guy if his dog seems itchy. You're jumping ahead and sending the guy down the wrong road too soon.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:48 pm

the mites could be a sign of another condition causing the skinniness..i figured if he was going to get a stool checked the vet could look at it or do a quick scraping...i would but thats just me..

maybe GSP's have that pattern naturally, i remember saying i wasn't that familiar with them

High Voltage · Post by **High Voltage** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:23 pm

Our female liver shorthair looks the same around the eyes and mouth it's just the way she is, the more cover she goes through the thinner her hair gets there

We feed the dreaded Pro Plan Perfomance, have fed it to her since we got her home and swiched off of what the breeder fed. She is a big girl at 60 pounds, not sure how tall she is but she maybe just over the height for females. She'll be 2 in Jan and eats about 3 1/2 cups a day, we only feed in the evening. We like to be able to see the last couple of ribs, right now she is looking a little fat cause we haven't had her out running much but that will change soon

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:29 pm

mcb,

I knew where you were heading. There is no such thing as a "quick" scraping. They either do a scraping or they don't. If you're not familiar with how GSPs pattern naturally rather than raise a red flag and say maybe you shouldn't be raising a red flag 'cause you don't know any better, perhaps it'd be better to not comment at all this early in the game. I still say you're barkin' up the wrong tree at the wrong time.

Dugger,

If it were me I'd try the deworming & dietary suggestions first before heading to the vet for a non-urgent issue. With a bit of trial and error, you may very well be able to resolve your concern about the dog's weight without the added time and expense of a visit to a vet. As others has suggested as well, do the easy & cheap stuff first.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:38 pm

a scraping takes 5 - 10 mins maybe, recommending a dog being wormed without any evidence of the dog having worms is totally irresponsible, Big.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:16 pm

mcb,

Please explain to us what parasite is so difficult to diagnose it normally requires not one but at least three sequential stool examinations to try and find evidence of infestation.

My apologies dugger,

We're getting off track & IMO it won't be helpful to you if this debate progresses so I respectfully decline to continue to take the bait. I'm certain you have enough common sense to decide which advice makes the most sense for you and your dog.

Good luck & keep us posted.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:11 pm

whipworms are very difficult to diagnose as they dont shed eggs like rounds and hooks but they are relatively uncommon especially outside a kennel environment..take what bait..my advice was prudent yours to just give a dog some feed-store wormer for no confirmed reason was not..

sal

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:34 pm

OK..Maybe I'm too simple..Dont' experiment..Take her to the vet and then you will know for sure..Just my opinion.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:05 pm

mcbosco wrote:whipworms are very difficult to diagnose as they dont shed eggs like rounds and hooks but they are relatively uncommon especially outside a kennel environment..take what bait..my advice was prudent yours to just give a dog some feed-store wormer for no confirmed reason was not..

sal

How many people do you think take stool samples to the vet before worming their dogs on a routine basis? And how many of them use a "feed store wormer"? Some of us are not quite so plush that we use the vet to tell us when to cut the toenails, see fleas, or notice the signs of mange.

Ezzy

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:24 pm

bossman wrote:OK..Maybe I'm too simple..Dont' experiment..Take her to the vet and then you will know for sure..Just my opinion.

That is what I suggested to Dugger at risk of being told I run to the vet for everything.

A wide spectrum dewormer could easily miss the real worm/parasite problem if it's there.
I'm one who gets the stool checked at the vet once a year. I call it wise not plush.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:42 pm

mcb,

I see your previous responses were very quick but this one took three hours. Plenty of time to get your internet research done. So much for the one stool sample = definitive results theory. Well at least it appears some education for one or more participants occurred.

IMO the advice to see a vet right away is ultra-conservative & is not a guarantee under these circumstances that the visit will result in a one visit definitive diagnosis with an accompanying correct treatment plan.

IMO it's okay for folks with modest means, who live a long ways from a vet or for other equally justifiable reasons want to try an alternative, practical approach, especially with an otherwise healthy dog. I remain unconvinced that under this particular set of circumstances you have identified how irreparable harm will come to the dog if it isn't seen by a vet first before these alternatives are applied.

I did not take the bait and respond with derogatory personal comments.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:47 pm

Sharon wrote:I'm one who gets the stool checked at the vet once a year.

So you unbolt it from the bathroom floor first or what?

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:00 pm

Oh.... you are very funny.

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:53 am

So let's review..All have been suggested...Worming, food, enzymes (prozymes, nzymes), stool samples (would still have to take them to a vet), scraping aound the eyes (who is going to analyze the scrapings...anyway, scraping around the eyes???), demodectic mites (you really didn't mean Democratic mites..might have something to do with the government's health plan...just kidding everyone) as well as other suggestions. Whose better to give a proper diagnosis, the good people on this board or a professional. Bigshooter..I'm usually right there with you, but on this one, I'd go conservative and go to the vet. The outcome is too important..again, just my opinion.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:27 am

BigShooter wrote:mcb,

I see your previous responses were very quick but this one took three hours. Plenty of time to get your internet research done. So much for the one stool sample = definitive results theory. Well at least it appears some education for one or more participants occurred.

IMO the advice to see a vet right away is ultra-conservative & is not a guarantee under these circumstances that the visit will result in a one visit definitive diagnosis with an accompanying correct treatment plan.

IMO it's okay for folks with modest means, who live a long ways from a vet or for other equally justifiable reasons want to try an alternative, practical approach, especially with an otherwise healthy dog. I remain unconvinced that under this particular set of circumstances you have identified how irreparable harm will come to the dog if it isn't seen by a vet first before these alternatives are applied.

I did not take the bait and respond with derogatory personal comments.

hey bigshooter.....its called commuting, being stuck in traffic and meeting your family for dinner.....i think if you look at my responses to the initial question they are pretty well thought out and reasonable..

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:56 am

bossman wrote:So let's review

1. What we have here is a 3 1/2 y.o. that appears too skinny to its owner. No urgent isuues have been identified. The dog has been like this for a long time & has not suddenly declined in health status.
2. The owner would like to try something that might result in the dog gaining more mass.

bossman wrote:The outcome is too important

1. How did you come to this conclusion?

kninebirddog wrote:with the way the dog is sitting Looks fine to me , muscular and coat appears to shine and can't even see any rib linings
some people think athletic dogs look skinny any more weight and that dog will look like a house pet

To review there are two schools of thought:

Based upon the owner's description & a couple of pics:

1. Some folks say take the dog to a vet first before trying any of the less expensive alternatives. One person says it is irresponsible for an owner to worm a dog without a vet visit first, without providing any evidence to support that position. There are of course vets that will deworm without examining a fecal sample first.
2. Other folks say try deworming the dog and changing its nutrition. If that doesn't work you can always schedule a visit to a vet later.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:13 pm

Actually you don't have my position right. I think the dog needs nutritional support. If you read that you will see. The fact pattern is that the dog has always been on the thin side and is eating 6 cups of kibble. The dog has a problem assimilating this food.

I brought up the skin areas to be conservative and I was clear that I wasn't an expert in GSP coat patterns.

Nothing was presented to suggest the dog has worms.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:47 pm

mcbosco wrote:Actually you don't have my position right. I think the dog needs nutritional support. If you read that you will see. The fact pattern is that the dog has always been on the thin side and is eating 6 cups of kibble. The dog has a problem assimilating this food.

I brought up the skin areas to be conservative and I was clear that I wasn't an expert in GSP coat patterns.

Nothing was presented to suggest the dog has worms.

A dog that is overeating because it is hungry and isn't gaining weight has a problem and the first thing any expeienced person or vet would look for is a worm problem. Seems our info todate indicates that is where to start. Then and only then if the worming doesn't help it would be prudent to check further. And that might entail a trip to the vet. But I will guarantee you any vet worth his salt would recommend worming as the first plan of attack. And I don't think it is worth 50 dollars or more to have the vet tell me the same thing he has said a thousand times before.

Dog eats a lot----dog doesn't gain weight==== dog has worm problem about 90% of the time=====some other problem is found 10% of the time.

Think I might just worm the dog since it hasn't been done in several years.

Ezzy

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:42 pm

That is far too logical and practical for an internet forum ezzy.

From the pictures of the dog I couldn't see a dog that was having a problem myself. Looked like a fit athlete. Coat is shiny, eyes are bright, body is trim.

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:20 pm

Over my 30 years as a professional pet dog trainer, I have seen and rescued plenty of different working dog breeds that were mostly pets and no matter what or how much the owners fed the dog stayed skinnny and all that were fed 5 to 6 cups of food daily had sloppy stools. NONE ever had worms as I suggested that first. ALL were put on PROZYME or NZYMES supplement (owners choice) and all gained needed weight and the feed was reduced by at least 13/ mostly by 1/2 as much as they were fed.

From the pictures of Dugger13's beautiful liver GSP I sure can't see anything wrong. Certainly not skinny. Yes lean, fit, well muscled. By normal pet people's standards they would think the dog is skinny just looking at it. Those are just people that don't know what GSP working dogs are suppose to look like.

A fecal float is not expensive and would rule out worms most of the time. So get that done first if you think that is where to start. In the end I put my money on that dog needing a digestive enzyme. It is a very low cost means to solving the problem.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:37 pm

Looks like my 2.5 yr old GSPs, usual condition. Mine's well muscled, shiny coat, always wants to run, and can hunt all day. Mine maintains that weight/condition and performs well at it. If she were losing weight or was maintaining at starvation skinny, then I would worry. She is an athlete in every sense of the word. I WAS the same "skinny" for the first 30 years of my life.

Anyway, if she were mine and hasn't been wormed in a while, I would worm (or have her checked for worms) regardless. That's just a matter of good health. I also think it shouldn't be necessary to feed 6 cups a day to maintain at her age, so I might experiment with some other formulas to try to find a good one that is more efficient for the dollar spent. And if you really think she still needs extra weight, you've been given some good suggestions for additives.

From the pictures of Dugger13's beautiful liver GSP I sure can't see anything wrong. Certainly not skinny. Yes lean, fit, well muscled. By normal pet people's standards they would think the dog is skinny just looking at it. Those are just people that don't know what GSP working dogs are suppose to look like.

I think this is right on.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:21 pm

MikeB,

Way to go..the reason why this dog "must" get wormed has nothing to do with the dog actually having worms, its all about ego and protecting "mother" grain kibble dog food from criticism. So blame it on worms. A healthy adult dog that really needs regular worming is a dog with an immune system and gut chemistry that needs a boost. All parasites find a comfortable home in a weaker body, that is exactly what parasites are supposed to do. I have heard several people ridicule feeding raw because it introduces bacteria to the dog, well that is a good thing, it keeps the gut strong.

There was only one picture where I thought the dog needed a little extra weight and that was the one taken over her back but feeding 6 cups is terribly expensive for a dog of a GSP's size, plus the clean-up.

I am confident with those enzymes and maybe a different food that dog will glow.

dugger13 · Post by **dugger13** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:48 pm

thanks for all the replys. i mainly asked because i didn't think it would be right to feed say 8 cups of food a day. I will worm the dog. i have some wormer from my vet that i used on my pup. He said i can go ahead and use it on both dogs.

I also ordered some enzymes that people have talked about. I will see what it does after a month or so of being on it.

Maverick57 · Post by **Maverick57** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:20 pm

I had the same problem with my solid liver GSP Here is what we did :

Wormed, got a thyorid test , might be underlying problem a pill aday no biggie

Also, Satin balls do help, recipe is on this site somewhere. If you can feed your dog a 30-20 type dog food would be great also , if you are feed a good dog food you should not have to feed more than 3-4cups aday.

All my dogs get 1/1/2 cups a day they range from a Bullmastiff to Cattle dogs there are 8 dogs and they all look perfect.

I have 4 that live with me, 2 with my oldest daughter, 1 BC-Lab- Foster dog ,and a Std Doxie that lives with my youngest kid
all dogs are healthy, stool pick- up is almost nothing.

Good Luck with your Girl.