Grain-free food question

[law_reb]

I just got a 2 yr. old GSP female who has previously been on a grain-free(Orijen) diet. I would rather not pay the cost for it, and I am not yet convinced I need to. She was not fed this for any medical reason, it was just the choice of the previous owner. What effects/problems would a switch to food with grain cause? Convince me I should stick with grain-free.

[bossman]

I see no problem with making a change..Many have. Do it slowly. Over period of a week or ten days. Some may suggest adding prebiotics to make the transition easier. Hope this helps

[ezzy333]

Switch her to what you want. There is absolutely no digestive problem switching as long as you do it like Bossman says. If you make any change to quickly you can throw their system off for a couple of days but there would be no lasting effect. Dogs like the grain and do very well on it and it is easier to digest. That is the reason practically all performance type dog foods have it in there.

Ezzy

[Winchey]

My vet said her opinion was that cats are carnivores and should definately be on grain free but that dogs were more omnivores and that grain free was not neccesary.

[dog dr]

Oh boy, here we go again!!

[big steve46]

Our cat eats dog food, or she doesn't eat at all, except for mice of course.

[ACooper]

Our cat eats dog food, or she doesn't eat at all, except for mice of course.

Mine do the exact same, they seem to do fine. Now if I could keep the coyotes from eating the cats I would have it made!

[SubMariner]

I just got a 2 yr. old GSP female who has previously been on a grain-free(Orijen) diet. I would rather not pay the cost for it, and I am not yet convinced I need to. She was not fed this for any medical reason, it was just the choice of the previous owner. What effects/problems would a switch to food with grain cause? Convince me I should stick with grain-free.

How about more & looser stools plus having to consume about 2x as much in the inferior food, thereby negating any "savings" you think you might reap?

Been there, done that... sticking with the grain free Evo.

[mcbosco]

I just got a 2 yr. old GSP female who has previously been on a grain-free(Orijen) diet. I would rather not pay the cost for it, and I am not yet convinced I need to. She was not fed this for any medical reason, it was just the choice of the previous owner. What effects/problems would a switch to food with grain cause? Convince me I should stick with grain-free.

You don't have to go with another grain-free food but stay with quality. There are carbs in "grain free" foods but the sources are potatoes, sweet potatoes, tapioca etc. Kibble cannot be made without a source of starch.

Orijen is expensive. You can save money with other good brands like Canidae, Annamaet, Wellness, Innova/Evo, Blue Buffalo, Back to Basics, Natural Balance, etc.

Sub is right, you won't save money feeding the lower-end foods.

[big steve46]

There are plenty of feeds that are not lower end but are mid-level feeds that will do very well and produce good stools. To say that you have to spend perhaps a dollar a pound before the feed is good and is cost effective is just silly. Well processed grains are generally fine, although there are some dogs that may have a sensitivity or intolerance (not to be confused with a true allergy). I get the feeling some are a bit snobbish on what they feed.

[ezzy333]

I just got a 2 yr. old GSP female who has previously been on a grain-free(Orijen) diet. I would rather not pay the cost for it, and I am not yet convinced I need to. She was not fed this for any medical reason, it was just the choice of the previous owner. What effects/problems would a switch to food with grain cause? Convince me I should stick with grain-free.

You don't have to go with another grain-free food but stay with quality. There are carbs in "grain free" foods but the sources are potatoes, sweet potatoes, tapioca etc. Kibble cannot be made without a source of starch.

Orijen is expensive. You can save money with other good brands like Canidae, Annamaet, Wellness, Innova/Evo, Blue Buffalo, Back to Basics, Natural Balance, etc.

Sub is right, you won't save money feeding the lower-end foods.

Again, let us know where we can find the test results to backup your statements of fact. I think you will find that you can save money with cheaper feeds but you may not get the results you want for a performance type dog. But then again there sure are a lot of them fed these low-cost expensive feeds and do quite well. That's why there are so many of them compared to the high priced feeds. Mostly a different marketing strategy. I've fed a lot of dogs over a lot of years and have never found that I saved money by spending more for the high priced group of feeds. Most of them are good but just over priced to be economical.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

My experience has been that a bag of food that costs twice as much to buy will not cost twice as much to feed - but it will be more expensive to feed. I have not found an expensive feed that was actually cheaper to feed than a good quality feed for a lesser price.

I have not found it to be true that if you pay more for the feed you will get better performance/condition from your dog. In fact I have found that some very expensive feeds (Orijen for example) will give a noticeable decline in the performance of the dog while costing more money to feed. Try some good quality rations and find one that likes your dog at a price point you are comfortable with and go with it.

[mcbosco]

The kibbles I stuck up there dont cost twice as much as Diamond, Sportmix & ProPac. In fact Canidae is much cheaper than Nutrisource on the East Coast. Annamaet Ultra 32/20 40lbs can be had in NJ for about $45, but in Chicago its $65. Diamond Extreme costs well over $50 here at the very few stores that carry Diamond products other than TOTW.

Some of this depends on where you live and the distribution system of the company. It doesn't make much sense to ship smaller quantities of a food like Arkat from the Midwest to the east coast and put it in a smaller northeast store with the Canidae, Innova, Natural Balance, Evo, Annamaet and expect it to compete. Arkat & Loyall might be a good value somewhere but not on the East Coast, at least not yet.

Price competition is more fierce here as well because there are many stores.

[ezzy333]

The kibbles I stuck up there dont cost twice as much as Diamond, Sportmix & ProPac. In fact Canidae is much cheaper than Nutrisource on the East Coast. Annamaet Ultra 32/20 40lbs can be had in NJ for about $45, but in Chicago its $65. Diamond Extreme costs well over $50 here at the very few stores that carry Diamond products other than TOTW.

Some of this depends on where you live and the distribution system of the company. It doesn't make much sense to ship smaller quantities of a food like Arkat from the Midwest to the east coast and put it in a smaller northeast store with the Canidae, Innova, Natural Balance, Evo, Annamaet and expect it to compete. Arkat & Loyall might be a good value somewhere but not on the East Coast, at least not yet.

Price competition is more fierce here as well because there are many stores.

Thanks for clearing that up. When a feed costs$45 for a 40 lb. bag I think 99.9% of us common folk will say that is high priced. The store I buy at has many feeds, though I don't see any of the ones you mentioned in their high priced section, but they carry very little since they sell very little. With the cost of manufacturing today it is virtually impossible for the low volume feeds to keep their costs down to a reasonable level. But get over in the section with several Diamond feeds, several Sportsmix feeds and you will find pallets of them priced around 22 to 25 dollars for 40 lbs. That's getting close to half the price compared to some of the high end. Pro-Plan is the highest priced in the high volume feeds and Iams fits up there somewhere too. Just have to agree with Slistoe about the cost of feeds and feeding. High price does not always mean better feed and I am not aware of a single case where it spelled cheaper to use.

By the way, Arkat and Loyall are manufactured where? Don't think that has much to do with the higher cost on the east coast though transportation can and does affect the price in different regions. A big difference in cost of feeds is the transportation cost of the ingredients coming into the plant, much more so than the feed going out.

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

Ezzy have you ever heard the old saying "Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story?"

The black bag of Sportmix is $38 in NJ at the place i buy stuff. Canidea 44lb is $39.99 and the 6th bag is free.

Honestly if you lived by me would you buy this:

Sportmix
Ingredients
Meat Meal, Ground Yellow Corn, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a natural source of Vitamin E), Chicken By-Product Meal, Ground Brewers Rice, Dried Beet Pulp, Menhaden Fish Meal, Flaxseed, Salt, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Calcium Iodate, Copper Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Magnesium Oxide.


or this for about the same price:

CANIDAE All Natural Ingredients
Chicken meal, turkey meal, lamb meal, brown rice, white rice, rice bran, peas, potatoes, oatmeal, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), millet, tomato pomace, natural flavor, flaxseed meal, ocean fish meal, choline chloride, suncured alfalfa meal, inulin (from chicory root), lecithin, sage extract, cranberries, beta-carotene, rosemary extract, sunflower oil, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, cobalt proteinate, papaya, pineapple.


You are a smart man.

[ezzy333]

Ezzy have you ever heard the old saying "Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story?"

Yep, sure have but I got my facts from your last post.

Which would I buy? Which ever one was the most economical to feed as long as it provided what my dogs needed to stay in condition. But lets use the example you just put up there. Meat meal compared to lamb, turkey and chicken. Don't see where that tells us one is better than the other. What it does say is that one of the companies buys a meat meal that is a combination of lamb, chicken and turkey possibly or may have other meats in it too. The other company buys the different meals separately and then mixes them together into a meat meal for their feeds. But since they bought them as separate ingredients they can list them that way. Doesn't in anyway say that the feed is better or even different but does look great to the people who's main understanding of feed manufacturing and nutrition is reading a list of ingredients instead of looking at their dog and it's performance.

And all of the other fancy ingredients are OK but make no difference to the dog if the simple feed(Sportsmix) is providing all that the dog needs. And the experience as well as test results says that it is. Sorry, but just not my nature to be impressed with all of the fancy stuff that adds nothing substantial but looks so impressive to some people. I kind of live by the KISS model, Keep It Simple Stupid. That gives me more time and money to do things that really matter and presents a whole lot less chance of screwing up. It's worked and worked well for a lot of years.

Did I lose my status of being a smart man?

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

Ezzy...come on...this just highlights my point about costs of foods in certain regions. Canidae has a big following where I live and can be competitive and volume driven.

It could be totally different in another place.

You are ducking the the question.

[big steve46]

In the Midwest, you can buy a good Performance feed for about 75 cents a pound. I would only buy such a feed if my dog was worked real hard, which he isn't. I presently use "Hunter's Edge" which is quite acceptable, and I pay about 42 cents a pound.

Paying high prices for minimal improvement of the feed is not usually cost effective. Neither would I feed the low-end feeds such as Ol'Roy and many others.

[kninebirddog]

as for grains...FYI Coyotes eat grain and grass and fur and by products full of what the prey had eaten
matter a fact when one finds a carcass that has been freshly killed first thing a predator goes for are the very parts we humans label by products and call poor and gross and the last thing they eat is the meat..subordinates in the pack get the meat, leaders get first dibs and eat the very parts we find unpalatable

maybe the animals know something we don't

[kninebirddog]

In the Midwest, you can buy a good Performance feed for about 75 cents a pound. I would only buy such a feed if my dog was worked real hard, which he isn't. I presently use "Hunter's Edge" which is quite acceptable, and I pay about 42 cents a pound.

Paying high prices for minimal improvement of the feed is not usually cost effective. Neither would I feed the low-end feeds such as Ol'Roy and many others.

we are going to go to loyall dog food for us we buy by the pallet but they have a breeders program also which will save some

our average price for the maintenance will be under 55 cents a pound and with the performance will be about 60 cents a pound

[mcbosco]

Loyall ranges from $35 a bag to $43 a bag in NJ... huge difference here...90 cents to over $1 a lb

[big steve46]

[
we are going to go to loyall dog food for us we buy by the pallet but they have a breeders program also which will save some

our average price for the maintenance will be under 55 cents a pound and with the performance will be about 60 cents a pound

I fed a couple of bags when I had $3 off coupons. I used a bag of Active Adult and a bag of Adult. Loyall is a very good feed, and the price you are getting is very good also. A 40# bag here is about $30.

[slistoe]

Honestly if you lived by me would you buy this:

Sportmix
Ingredients
Meat Meal, Ground Yellow Corn, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a natural source of Vitamin E), Chicken By-Product Meal, Ground Brewers Rice, Dried Beet Pulp, Menhaden Fish Meal, Flaxseed, Salt, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Calcium Iodate, Copper Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Magnesium Oxide.


or this for about the same price:

CANIDAE All Natural Ingredients
Chicken meal, turkey meal, lamb meal, brown rice, white rice, rice bran, peas, potatoes, oatmeal, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), millet, tomato pomace, natural flavor, flaxseed meal, ocean fish meal, choline chloride, suncured alfalfa meal, inulin (from chicory root), lecithin, sage extract, cranberries, beta-carotene, rosemary extract, sunflower oil, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, cobalt proteinate, papaya, pineapple.

Well, since the Canidae does not have any corn or chicken by-product meal I would be inclined to try the Sportmix. My experience is that all the rice, oats and barley simply do not provide as much for the dog are plain old corn.

[ezzy333]

Well, since the Canidae does not have any corn or chicken by-product meal I would be inclined to try the Sportmix. My experience is that all the rice, oats and barley simply do not provide as much for the dog are plain old corn.

And you are so right.

Ezzy

[kumate]

Slistoe just curious dont you feed Abady?

Jerry

[big steve46]

Because of the overall ingredients, I would prefer Canidae, but both are quite acceptable. That's assuming that Canidae does not cost over $1 more per 40# bag.

[3Britts]

I'm going to go with the original three posts.
I also agree that you should go with whatever keeps your dogs doing well in the field, keeps you from using a backhoe in the yard to pick up the droppings, and doesn't cost a mint to buy is the right dog food.

[slistoe]

Slistoe just curious dont you feed Abady?

Jerry

I think you have me confused with mcbosco?

[kumate]

I know he does, but i thought you do or did also

Jerry

[kumate]

Never mind my mistake it was claybuster

Jerry

[claybuster_aa]

Yes, still feeding Abady, since '02. In regards to the topic at hand, IMO the fiber from plants (grain-free), holds no advantage over the fiber from grain. Less is best when it comes to the fiber. It would be marketing and sales appeal only that is the big attraction to grain-free diets.